There are a lot of smaller Droyne nations scattered through the systems in the near Area of Operations. How much do the Hivers know about the Droyne?
Do they know that chirpers are feral/uncasted droyne?
Do they know about coyns and pheromones?
Do they know about racial memory?
Because I am thinking that a friendly Droyne nation might be persuaded to "remember" how to bulk produce Jump-2 or Jump-3 drives for trade to the Coalition, and the tech levels on Aubaine, Oriflamme and a few other coalition worlds could slap locally produced hulls around them, and that would be a huge contribution to the recovery effort.
Like everything, a historical precedent: During WWII, "high tech" Britain shipped truck engines to India, and locally produced chassis, tires and other systems were built around them to produce a complete vehicle. It saved the British a lot on shipping, and helped build up the local tech level of the Indian subcontractors.
For that matter, might there be some Hiver minds that want to supply ships to the coalition in the form of knockdown kits?
Knock-down kit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-down_kit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-down_kit
Knock-down kit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-down_kit A knock-down kit is a kit containing the parts needed to assemble a product. The parts are typically manufactured in one country or region, then exported to ano...
View on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-down_kit
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I do agree that the Hivers must have made contact with the Droyne worlds. The thing here is motivation. The Droyne seem to me to be, well sort of stretched-back-take-things-as-they-come kind of race. Their genetic memory would be passed on to the next generation. I say this as they don't seem to want to expand and make multiple colonies and finally an empire.
Hivers were looking for allies and people to fight or at least form a block against vampires and a return of virus. I think their motivation was to find someone who could and would fight virus. Trading with us, the Coalition, the Hivers most definitely do. Things that can't be made in the Coalition like TL-14 focal arrays, compact fusion plants, J-4 and 5 drives and advanced sensors. But more than this I think they bring in high-tech consumer goods and techs to teach us how to use and maintain the gear we find and they bring to the Coalition.
If the Coalition is going to expand then more ships are needed BADLY. A fast way to expand both civilian and military ship construction would be to have the four class B starports turn out spaceships capable of being refitted into starships, just slap a third computer, extra fuel tanks and a J-drive onto the spaceship and you have a starship. Admittedly no one is going to want a TL-9 J-Hawk from Oriflamme when they could have a TL-11 one from Kruyter, but if Oriflamme bought a J-2/3 drive from Aubaine for their starship then why not buy more advanced sensors and weapons as well. Merchant rule number one: pride goes out the window before profit.
I would like to see a TL-10 J-Hawk built on Trybec with a J-3 drive from Aubaine and sensors and weapons from TL-11 Eos, or a TL-12 Shukugan SDB with a 1-200 ton section welded on and sporting TL-14 weapons and sensors from the Hivers
Roger
The Hivers should have figured out that the Droyne were descended from the
Ancients on the archaeological & forensic evidence alone. If there are
Droyne worlds in the Federation, they would also know generally everything
known in the Imperium from coyns to the racial memory.
Generally speaking, I think the idea was Droyne would be looked at like
anyone else either integrated into the Coalition or exterior to it with
distinctions being cultural flavoring & idiosyncrasies, though also begs
the guys in suits & how alien are the aliens discussions.
Hivers attempting manipulations on Droyne nests sounds like fun.
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 06:32 [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> I do agree that the Hivers must have made contact with the Droyne worlds.
> The thing here is motivation. The Droyne seem to me to be, well sort of
> stretched-back-take-things-as-they-come kind of race. Their genetic memory
> would be passed on to the next generation. I say this as they don't seem
> to want to expand and make multiple colonies and finally an empire.
>
> Hivers were looking for allies and people to fight or at least form a
> block against vampires and a return of virus. I think their motivation was
> to find someone who could and would fight virus. Trading with us, the
> Coalition, the Hivers most definitely do. Things that can't be made in the
> Coalition like TL-14 focal arrays, compact fusion plants, J-4 and 5 drives
> and advanced sensors. But more than this I think they bring in high-tech
> consumer goods and techs to teach us how to use and maintain the gear we
> find and they bring to the Coalition.
>
> If the Coalition is going to expand then more ships are needed BADLY. A
> fast way to expand both civilian and military ship construction would be to
> have the four class B starports turn out spaceships capable of being
> refitted into starships, just slap a third computer, extra fuel tanks and a
> J-drive onto the spaceship and you have a starship. Admittedly no one is
> going to want a TL-9 J-Hawk from Oriflamme when they could have a TL-11 one
> from Kruyter, but if Oriflamme bought a J-2/3 drive from Aubaine for their
> starship then why not buy more advanced sensors and weapons as well.
> Merchant rule number one: pride goes out the window before profit.
>
> I would like to see a TL-10 J-Hawk built on Trybec with a J-3 drive from
> Aubaine and sensors and weapons from TL-11 Eos, or a TL-12 Shukugan SDB
> with a 1-200 ton section welded on and sporting TL-14 weapons and sensors
> from the Hivers
>
> Roger
>
>
The Hivers should know pretty much everything the Imperium knew about the Droyne, since such knowledge wouldn't be a massive state secret, though a few things, such the location and details of significant Ancient sites probably would been highly classified and thus not something that the Hivers (or much of anyone else) would have known.
It is pretty firmly established that the Hivers saw Humanity as the most "useful" race for creating a stable neighbor on their flank, thus they would have probably not had an interest in manipulating Droyne. Indeed the Droyne may be "wired" to resist such head games by Grandfather. Speaking of him, remember that he is not above deciding that a group of Droyne are getting too "uppity" and proceed to smack them back down (he has done this in the past). The Droyne probably have a racial memory of this fact, which helps to explain why they aren't particularly enthusiastic about teaming up with anyone to create a star spanning empire.
As for the manufacture of starships, to me it would make far more sense to standard on a tech level for all components, then provide any lower tech worlds who are manufacturing components with the manufacturing equipment necessary to churn out their parts. We see examples of this everyday in manufacturing, including the computer industry. Another example I like to cite for other reasons (whenever I get into a debate with someone regarding who won the Vietnam War...) is are certain types of Nike shoes, which are manufactured in Vietnam using imported materials and equipment and then shipped around the world to Nike distributors. Shipping the means of manufacture rather than just completed components to be assembled makes more sense from a business perspective, since it is highly probable that it is more cost effective, not to mention it helps to eliminate logistical bottlenecks/snafus.
So in the case of the Jayhawk-class far trader, you would want to crank those out using Imperial spec TL 12 components, since besides being more cost effective, it would have the additional bonus of allowing any Far Traders found as the RC expands to be put back into service much faster or if they are beyond salvage, make them more useful as a source of spare parts (and for a far trader operating in the Wilds, that could be a life saving feature...). The Hivers would be able to work with local RC worlds setting them up with the equipment, training, etc. to make their components, with final assembly at Aubaine (or the world of your choice, though Aubaine is the most logical).
I don't recall the location of Droyne/Chirper worlds in/around the Hive
Federation, but they would have contacted any there, and I assume there
are some.
I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls built
as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key force-multiplying
systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to publish
ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get full
TL 15 performance out of it.
But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a bunch
of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of Suffren
where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going to
provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters, the
problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier than
necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get SDBs
or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.
> I do agree that the Hivers must have made contact with the Droyne worlds.
> The thing here is motivation. The Droyne seem to me to be, well sort of
> stretched-back-take-things-as-they-come kind of race. Their genetic
> memory would be passed on to the next generation. I say this as they
> don't seem to want to expand and make multiple colonies and finally an
> empire.
> Hivers were looking for allies and people to fight or at least form a
> block against vampires and a return of virus. I think their motivation
> was to find someone who could and would fight virus. Trading with us,
> the Coalition, the Hivers most definitely do. Things that can't be made
> in the Coalition like TL-14 focal arrays, compact fusion plants, J-4 and
> 5 drives and advanced sensors. But more than this I think they bring in
> high-tech consumer goods and techs to teach us how to use and maintain
> the gear we find and they bring to the Coalition.
> If the Coalition is going to expand then more ships are needed BADLY. A
> fast way to expand both civilian and military ship construction would be
> to have the four class B starports turn out spaceships capable of being
> refitted into starships, just slap a third computer, extra fuel tanks and
> a J-drive onto the spaceship and you have a starship. Admittedly no one
> is going to want a TL-9 J-Hawk from Oriflamme when they could have a
> TL-11 one from Kruyter, but if Oriflamme bought a J-2/3 drive from
> Aubaine for their starship then why not buy more advanced sensors and
> weapons as well. Merchant rule number one: pride goes out the window
> before profit.
> I would like to see a TL-10 J-Hawk built on Trybec with a J-3 drive from
> Aubaine and sensors and weapons from TL-11 Eos, or a TL-12 Shukugan SDB
> with a 1-200 ton section welded on and sporting TL-14 weapons and sensors
> from the Hivers
> Roger
>
>
The Hivers (at the level of their government) knew about the
Chirpers/Droyne/Ancients, that's just kind of generic top-level
interstellar empire knowledge. What they wouldn't (necessarily) know are
details out of Secret of the Ancients.
There certainly would be lots of manipulations involving Droyne, and
certainly there are a lot of broken Droyne societies which the
Encyclopaedia Hiverica would describe as "improved for our purposes...we
wanted to make them afraid of spiders, because it helps them to serve as
our...specialized pest control and fumigation caste."
Returning briefly to ships, the RC can/could/will make good use of Droyne
if/where they are available, but that was not part of any particular plan.
The big shipbuilding plot development was the secret Virus shipyard world
in Diaspora, at the end of the Guilded Lilly series.
> The Hivers should have figured out that the Droyne were descended from the
> Ancients on the archaeological & forensic evidence alone. If there are
> Droyne worlds in the Federation, they would also know generally
> everything
> known in the Imperium from coyns to the racial memory.
>
> Generally speaking, I think the idea was Droyne would be looked at like
> anyone else either integrated into the Coalition or exterior to it with
> distinctions being cultural flavoring & idiosyncrasies, though also begs
> the guys in suits & how alien are the aliens discussions.
>
> Hivers attempting manipulations on Droyne nests sounds like fun.
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 06:32 [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I do agree that the Hivers must have made contact with the Droyne
>> worlds.
>> The thing here is motivation. The Droyne seem to me to be, well sort of
>> stretched-back-take-things-as-they-come kind of race. Their genetic
>> memory
>> would be passed on to the next generation. I say this as they don't
>> seem
>> to want to expand and make multiple colonies and finally an empire.
>>
>> Hivers were looking for allies and people to fight or at least form a
>> block against vampires and a return of virus. I think their motivation
>> was
>> to find someone who could and would fight virus. Trading with us, the
>> Coalition, the Hivers most definitely do. Things that can't be made in
>> the
>> Coalition like TL-14 focal arrays, compact fusion plants, J-4 and 5
>> drives
>> and advanced sensors. But more than this I think they bring in
>> high-tech
>> consumer goods and techs to teach us how to use and maintain the gear we
>> find and they bring to the Coalition.
>>
>> If the Coalition is going to expand then more ships are needed BADLY. A
>> fast way to expand both civilian and military ship construction would be
>> to
>> have the four class B starports turn out spaceships capable of being
>> refitted into starships, just slap a third computer, extra fuel tanks
>> and a
>> J-drive onto the spaceship and you have a starship. Admittedly no one
>> is
>> going to want a TL-9 J-Hawk from Oriflamme when they could have a TL-11
>> one
>> from Kruyter, but if Oriflamme bought a J-2/3 drive from Aubaine for
>> their
>> starship then why not buy more advanced sensors and weapons as well.
>> Merchant rule number one: pride goes out the window before profit.
>>
>> I would like to see a TL-10 J-Hawk built on Trybec with a J-3 drive from
>> Aubaine and sensors and weapons from TL-11 Eos, or a TL-12 Shukugan SDB
>> with a 1-200 ton section welded on and sporting TL-14 weapons and
>> sensors
>> from the Hivers
>>
>> Roger
>>
>>
>
Of course the Hivers know all about the Droyne... it is all a manipulation after all.
Typically the Droyne are described as hand producing jump drives and such. I could imagine you could force them to build you J drives but better to trade with them.
As for Hivers sending J drives to the RC, there is note of them providing small high tech weaponry or the components of weaponry. I would imagine though that they would need J drives for their own rebuilding.
The only case I can recall of Hivers providing jump drives was in a COALINFONET Report on the Hivers providing J-5 Couriers to link Aubaine and Oriflamme directly. Any RC craft listed with higher tech drives in TNE had them stated as "recovered drives".
Sent from my iPad
On 18 Feb 2015, at 15:18, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
> Of course the Hivers know all about the Droyne... it is all a manipulation after all.
>
> Typically the Droyne are described as hand producing jump drives and such. I could imagine you could force them to build you J drives but better to trade with them.
>
> As for Hivers sending J drives to the RC, there is note of them providing small high tech weaponry or the components of weaponry. I would imagine though that they would need J drives for their own rebuilding.
>
> Matt
>
>
From PoT and RCEG there were mentions of clipper modules being constructed at lower tech levels than the clipper, and also Vixtrix Sloops being jumped to other RC Member Worlds for fitting out - so as to develop shipbuilding skills throughout the RC.
Sent from my iPad
On 18 Feb 2015, at 09:40, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
> were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls built
> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key force-multiplying
> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
> dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
> labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
> elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to publish
> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
> manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
> There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
> computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get full
> TL 15 performance out of it
>
>
The HF does send J drives to the RC, but they're not the RC's J drive
supplier. They'll send drives for technical academies to study and reverse
engineer, recovered drives they choose not to use for the RC to
recondition, but it's a smaller-scale, situational thing rather than all
RC starships having a "powered by Hivers" sticker slapped on the side.
One thing the classic Traveller shipbuilding capacity rules missed was the
effect of automation at higher TLs; it was all linearly derived from
population whereas it should have had some multiplying effects at higher
TLs.
> The only case I can recall of Hivers providing jump drives was in a
> COALINFONET Report on the Hivers providing J-5 Couriers to link Aubaine
> and Oriflamme directly. Any RC craft listed with higher tech drives in TNE
> had them stated as "recovered drives".
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 18 Feb 2015, at 15:18, " [Traveller_TNE]"
> <> wrote:
>
>> Of course the Hivers know all about the Droyne... it is all a
>> manipulation after all.
>>
>> Typically the Droyne are described as hand producing jump drives and
>> such. I could imagine you could force them to build you J drives but
>> better to trade with them.
>>
>> As for Hivers sending J drives to the RC, there is note of them
>> providing small high tech weaponry or the components of weaponry. I
>> would imagine though that they would need J drives for their own
>> rebuilding.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was referring to. In PoT I had the chance
to detail Lego ships like that, but not in the basic rules, where they
would have been confusing, plus inconsistent with the multi-universe
intent.
> From PoT and RCEG there were mentions of clipper modules being
constructed
> at lower tech levels than the clipper, and also Vixtrix Sloops being
jumped to other RC Member Worlds for fitting out - so as to develop
shipbuilding skills throughout the RC.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 18 Feb 2015, at 09:40, " [Traveller_TNE]"
> <> wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls
built
>> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key
>> force-multiplying
>> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to
publish
>> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get
full
>> TL 15 performance out of it
>
I am reminded of the old Johnny Cash song, "One Piece at a Time". In the song, a factory worker takes pieces of various model years of Cadillacs home, hoping to assemble them into a completed car some day.
One Piece at a Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece_at_a_Time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece_at_a_Time
One Piece at a Time - Wikipedia, the free encycl... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece_at_a_Time "One Piece at a Time" is a country novelty song written by Wayne Kemp[1] and recorded by Johnny Cash in 1976. It would be the last song performed by Cash ...
View on en.wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece_at_a_Time
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I think it would help if we figured out using FF&S what pieces/parts could feasibly be built at a lower tech and plugged into the modular ships. Yes there is what the books say the RC did, but then there is the reality of what the game mechanics allow.
I also seem to recall that GDW had plans for a sourcebook that would include pre-built modules that players and referees could use in their own modular ships. The Regency materials however ended up getting priority and GDW folded up shop before they could get around to it.
If the books say the RC did it, then the game mechanics would allow it,
QED. The rules were already laying in there waiting to be harvested, or
there may be a few fine points that we hadn't published yet, but we didn't
publish magickal ships of unobtanium that the rules would not support.
You're talking about a couple books, the Clipper book and then wherever
the finer-grained ship design rules and operations would have gone.
Whether that would have been a full-up starship operators' manual or a
section in a player's handbook who knows.
> I think it would help if we figured out using FF&S what pieces/parts could
> feasibly be built at a lower tech and plugged into the modular ships. Yes
> there is what the books say the RC did, but then there is the reality of
> what the game mechanics allow.
>
> I also seem to recall that GDW had plans for a sourcebook that would
> include pre-built modules that players and referees could use in their own
> modular ships. The Regency materials however ended up getting priority
> and GDW folded up shop before they could get around to it.
Wouldn't be the first time that something popped up in a Traveller book that can't be re-created using the design sequences.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss//showthread.php?p=116339
FYI: TL 12 ship with a TL 13 jump drive and power plant
There was also one of the design sequences in FF&S (I don't recall now which one off the top of my head) that simply couldn't produce equivalent 20th century real world designs. Simple solution was just go ahead and use what FF&S gave you with the knowledge it was "wrong" or use the contemporary numbers for whatever it was and not stress about it.
Ultimately though we're speculating here about the "how" behind a canon storyline. The story is indeed correct as you state by default. The "how" has more wiggle room.
I haven't read the thread, but I assume the ship is easily explained as "a
mistake," rather than, "here is this canonical thing and you're not
allowed to make one, the rules say so." Mistakes are easy.
The inability of an SFRPG design sequence being written on deadlines by
people getting paid $20K/yr to produce everything in the real world boils
down to, "Duh."
> Wouldn't be the first time that something popped up in a Traveller book
> that can't be re-created using the design sequences.
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss//showthread.php?p=116339
> FYI: TL 12 ship with a TL 13 jump drive and power plant
>
> There was also one of the design sequences in FF&S (I don't recall now
> which one off the top of my head) that simply couldn't produce equivalent
> 20th century real world designs. Simple solution was just go ahead and use
> what FF&S gave you with the knowledge it was "wrong" or use the
> contemporary numbers for whatever it was and not stress about it.
> Ultimately though we're speculating here about the "how" behind a canon
> storyline. The story is indeed correct as you state by default. The "how"
> has more wiggle room.
>
On Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:24 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
I haven't read the thread, but I assume the ship is easily explained as "a
mistake," rather than, "here is this canonical thing and you're not
allowed to make one, the rules say so." Mistakes are easy.
The inability of an SFRPG design sequence being written on deadlines by
people getting paid $20K/yr to produce everything in the real world boils
down to, "Duh."
> Wouldn't be the first time that something popped up in a Traveller book
> that can't be re-created using the design sequences.
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss//showthread.php?p=116339
> FYI: TL 12 ship with a TL 13 jump drive and power plant
>
> There was also one of the design sequences in FF&S (I don't recall now
> which one off the top of my head) that simply couldn't produce equivalent
> 20th century real world designs. Simple solution was just go ahead and use
> what FF&S gave you with the knowledge it was "wrong" or use the
> contemporary numbers for whatever it was and not stress about it.
> Ultimately though we're speculating here about the "how" behind a canon
> storyline. The story is indeed correct as you state by default. The "how"
> has more wiggle room.
>
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To wax a little more nostalgic about "Duh," Traveller tends to not be so
much like people living in NYC availing themselves evenly of all the
experiences there, but like people diving deeply into innumerable
"ghettos" noticing that an airplane aboard Intrepid was painted in the
wrong squadron colors, that a Camarasaurus at the Natural History Museum
was reconstructed improperly, that someone in The Lion King sings a little
pitchy, and that this deli can't make a decent pirogue. Traveller is also
like a 33 1/3 record I had as a kid of Winnie the Pooh where Tigger got
serially addicted to everything put in front of him, saying, "That's what
Tiggers love best." Every little subsection of Traveller was infinitely
fascinating and repays infinite attention, but while you're going over 25
messages from the TML saying that their M16s aren't quite right but the
M1911s are right on you get distracted by Frank saying, "we're not going
to have solar sails, they'd never work," and you explain that it's like a
sailboat tacking, and he'd say, "no, there are no keels in space" and then
you'd have to draw vector diagrams, and then you'd be reminded that you
had to get back to aerodynamic performance in different atmosphere types
for the people that just wouldn't go along quietly with, "just use grav
vehicles, okay?" It was always a glass somewhere between empty and
overflowing. I understand that "Guns, Guns, Guns" was good for 20th
century firearms, but its starship design sequence was a little thin.
> heh
>
> On Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:24 PM, "
> [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
> Â I haven't read the thread, but I assume the ship is easily explained
> as "a
> mistake," rather than, "here is this canonical thing and you're not
> allowed to make one, the rules say so." Mistakes are easy.
>
> The inability of an SFRPG design sequence being written on deadlines by
> people getting paid $20K/yr to produce everything in the real world boils
> down to, "Duh."
>
>> Wouldn't be the first time that something popped up in a Traveller book
>> that can't be re-created using the design sequences.
>> http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss//showthread.php?p=116339
>> FYI: TL 12 ship with a TL 13 jump drive and power plant
>>
>> There was also one of the design sequences in FF&S (I don't recall now
>> which one off the top of my head) that simply couldn't produce
>> equivalent
>> 20th century real world designs. Simple solution was just go ahead and
>> use
>> what FF&S gave you with the knowledge it was "wrong" or use the
>> contemporary numbers for whatever it was and not stress about it.
>> Ultimately though we're speculating here about the "how" behind a canon
>> storyline. The story is indeed correct as you state by default. The
>> "how"
>> has more wiggle room.
>>
>
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>
I just wanted to add that I have never been one to worry because a design sequence can't re-create with exact fidelity real world or historical artefact X or Y. I know many hours and bytes were wasted on the TML by complaints that somebody's M16 or Me262 didn't turn out just right. But if it is any consolation, that was the case with MegaTraveller before TNE and with later systems as well.
I could never wrap my head around why people who want to churn out exact replicas of historical or current weapons would select a SF roleplaying game set in the distant future to do so.
To link the past, present, and future in a more easily assimilated way?
-----Original Message-----
From: " [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: 2/23/2015 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
Dave,
I just wanted to add that I have never been one to worry because a design sequence can't re-create with exact fidelity real world or historical artefact X or Y. I know many hours and bytes were wasted on the TML by complaints that somebody's M16 or Me262 didn't turn out just right. But if it is any consolation, that was the case with MegaTraveller before TNE and with later systems as well.
I could never wrap my head around why people who want to churn out exact replicas of historical or current weapons would select a SF roleplaying game set in the distant future to do so.
"Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20 years ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions" development that could have gone to other product development that wouldn't have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers rather than settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were available at the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to work on the cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small amount of money even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over a couple of beers in 2015, but not something that's really worth going "full Guatney" over on the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few regrets I have about that whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW fax machine and running it out of paper with submissions) was spending far too much time *talking about* writing and not enough time actually *doing* it, particularly with the likes of Guatney.
Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book for designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord knows they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a three part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with a catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas, etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was presented in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S does a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who wanted to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full crusade about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed fixes. We nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others did, I was busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It turned out pretty well.
If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE wasn't something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too much complexity to their "perfect" game.
Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
I am still rather impressed with how accurate Fire, Fusion, and Steel is.
The fun is in optimizing.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 12:28 Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> "Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20 years
> ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions"
> development that could have gone to other product development that wouldn't
> have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers rather than
> settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were available at
> the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to work on the
> cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small amount of money
> even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over a couple of beers
> in 2015, but not something that's really worth going "full Guatney" over on
> the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few regrets I have about that
> whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW fax machine and running it
> out of paper with submissions) was spending far too much time *talking
> about* writing and not enough time actually *doing* it, particularly with
> the likes of Guatney.
>
> Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book for
> designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything
> perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord knows
> they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more
> resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a three
> part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with a
> catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than
> everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with
> some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas,
> etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was presented
> in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs
> like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S does
> a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who wanted
> to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full crusade
> about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed fixes. We
> nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others did, I was
> busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It turned out
> pretty well.
>
> If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little
> things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE wasn't
> something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the
> "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too much
> complexity to their "perfect" game.
>
> Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
>
>
Thanks, but no worries. I'd say I wanted it to be perfect as much as the
next guy, but that's not true: I wanted it to be perfect MORE than anyone,
but there's only so much you can do. You could say, "If I had a whole
year, or 10 years, or 20 years, or whatever, that I could make it
perfect." Not really, you'd get a lot of things better, but in that time
you'd discover more things you wanted to do, or deeper levels of detail
that you wanted to achieve, and those wouldn't be perfect either.
We were close enough to "perfect" to get the kind of complaints that we
got. Those complaints only happen when you're good enough for people to
take it that seriously.
I think using Trav to model existing equipment is maybe not the most
obvious use of an SFRPG, but I understand the impulse. For several years
in high school I used Traveller to model every wargame era, ancients, age
of sail, WW2, etc. There's just something fun about it. That "War World"
genre of novels had Traveller written all over it. But any system breaks
down here and there when you lean on it hard.
> Dave,
>
> I just wanted to add that I have never been one to worry because a design
> sequence can't re-create with exact fidelity real world or historical
> artefact X or Y. I know many hours and bytes were wasted on the TML by
> complaints that somebody's M16 or Me262 didn't turn out just right. But
> if it is any consolation, that was the case with MegaTraveller before TNE
> and with later systems as well.
>
>
> I could never wrap my head around why people who want to churn out exact
> replicas of historical or current weapons would select a SF roleplaying
> game set in the distant future to do so.
>
The answer to why, would for historic simulations as well as hypothetical
scenarios. As well as the classic: because you can!
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 15:14 [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Jake--
>
> Thanks, but no worries. I'd say I wanted it to be perfect as much as the
> next guy, but that's not true: I wanted it to be perfect MORE than anyone,
> but there's only so much you can do. You could say, "If I had a whole
> year, or 10 years, or 20 years, or whatever, that I could make it
> perfect." Not really, you'd get a lot of things better, but in that time
> you'd discover more things you wanted to do, or deeper levels of detail
> that you wanted to achieve, and those wouldn't be perfect either.
>
> We were close enough to "perfect" to get the kind of complaints that we
> got. Those complaints only happen when you're good enough for people to
> take it that seriously.
>
> I think using Trav to model existing equipment is maybe not the most
> obvious use of an SFRPG, but I understand the impulse. For several years
> in high school I used Traveller to model every wargame era, ancients, age
> of sail, WW2, etc. There's just something fun about it. That "War World"
> genre of novels had Traveller written all over it. But any system breaks
> down here and there when you lean on it hard.
>
>
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > I just wanted to add that I have never been one to worry because a design
> > sequence can't re-create with exact fidelity real world or historical
> > artefact X or Y. I know many hours and bytes were wasted on the TML by
> > complaints that somebody's M16 or Me262 didn't turn out just right. But
> > if it is any consolation, that was the case with MegaTraveller before TNE
> > and with later systems as well.
> >
> >
> > I could never wrap my head around why people who want to churn out exact
> > replicas of historical or current weapons would select a SF roleplaying
> > game set in the distant future to do so.
> >
>
>
>
Yeah, I never liked DJ, but that wasn't up to me, and I ended up being in
charge of developing that at the end and getting screamed at by EGG over
the phone, so no love lost there. The theory was that it would sell well
enough to provide income to give us flexibility on the other lines, which
was a great theory. And we only know that whatshername at TSR was that
bat$#!+ crazy now because we saw it happen, no one really thought they'd
go that far until it happened.
The freelance pool, on the other hand, is not the panacea people assume.
It's harder to coordinate freelancers than to do it yourself, and that
coordination takes time away from things you do need to do, etc. Remember
the friction and politics and agendas and people pulling in different
directions among TML, HIWG, etc., and it's the same with submissions. You
ask for A and get D, ask for something more A-like and get E, say "okay,
I'll settle for B" and get D back again. I have no one in mind from my
tenure at GDW, but I do remember one from when I was a free-lancer, when
some guys got some leverage pushing brown dwarfs in 2300 and deliberately
trashed one of the major underpinnings of the game.
I made a similar observation in my previous about people picking, although
I find I am less persuaded THAT people care than by WHY they care, which
is that the system takes things seriously enough that it repays attention
to detail. Stalkers care too. Unfortunately there is not a single thing*
that Traveller doesn't try to do. You might find designer's notes in a
Traveller book that says, "X is outside the scope of this book," but you
will never find designer's notes saying, "X is outside the scope of this
game."
*Sex. The one thing that Traveller never covered is sex.
> "Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20 years
> ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions"
> development that could have gone to other product development that
> wouldn't have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers
> rather than settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were
> available at the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to
> work on the cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small
> amount of money even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over
> a couple of beers in 2015, but not something that's really worth going
> "full Guatney" over on the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few
> regrets I have about that whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW
> fax machine and running it out of paper with submissions) was spending far
> too much time *talking about* writing and not enough time actually *doing*
> it, particularly with the likes of Guatney.
>
> Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book for
> designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything
> perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord
> knows they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more
> resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a
> three part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy
> with a catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than
> everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with
> some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas,
> etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was
> presented in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden.Â
> Some GMs like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and
> FF&S does a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of
> us who wanted to get published, the details mattered. I personally went
> on full crusade about how the stellar generation system was broken and
> proposed fixes. We nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s.Â
> Well, others did, I was busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of
> the AK-47. It turned out pretty well.
>
> If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little
> things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE
> wasn't something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of
> the "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too
> much complexity to their "perfect" game.
> Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
>
What people consistently fail to appreciate is that while we may have
missed a little on M16s and M1A1s, our TL 12+ stuff comes out to the gram,
mm, and microjoule, no exceptions. There are letters that will have been
published in 1000 years that attest to that, keep an eye out for them
should you live that long.
> I am still rather impressed with how accurate Fire, Fusion, and Steel is.
> The fun is in optimizing.
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 12:28 Harold Hale
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20
>> years
>> ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions"
>> development that could have gone to other product development that
>> wouldn't
>> have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers rather
>> than
>> settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were available
>> at
>> the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to work on the
>> cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small amount of money
>> even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over a couple of
>> beers
>> in 2015, but not something that's really worth going "full Guatney" over
>> on
>> the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few regrets I have about
>> that
>> whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW fax machine and running it
>> out of paper with submissions) was spending far too much time *talking
>> about* writing and not enough time actually *doing* it, particularly
>> with
>> the likes of Guatney.
>>
>> Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book
>> for
>> designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything
>> perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord
>> knows
>> they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more
>> resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a
>> three
>> part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with
>> a
>> catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than
>> everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with
>> some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas,
>> etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was
>> presented
>> in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs
>> like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S
>> does
>> a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who
>> wanted
>> to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full
>> crusade
>> about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed fixes.
>> We
>> nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others did, I
>> was
>> busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It turned
>> out
>> pretty well.
>>
>> If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little
>> things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE
>> wasn't
>> something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the
>> "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too
>> much
>> complexity to their "perfect" game.
>>
>> Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
>>
>>
>
I have a future membership in the low berth society in when it comes in to
existence 8-)
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 6:41 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you, sir!
>
> What people consistently fail to appreciate is that while we may have
> missed a little on M16s and M1A1s, our TL 12+ stuff comes out to the gram,
> mm, and microjoule, no exceptions. There are letters that will have been
> published in 1000 years that attest to that, keep an eye out for them
> should you live that long.
>
>
> > I am still rather impressed with how accurate Fire, Fusion, and Steel is.
> > The fun is in optimizing.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 12:28 Harold Hale
> > [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> "Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20
> >> years
> >> ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions"
> >> development that could have gone to other product development that
> >> wouldn't
> >> have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers rather
> >> than
> >> settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were available
> >> at
> >> the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to work on the
> >> cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small amount of money
> >> even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over a couple of
> >> beers
> >> in 2015, but not something that's really worth going "full Guatney" over
> >> on
> >> the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few regrets I have about
> >> that
> >> whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW fax machine and running it
> >> out of paper with submissions) was spending far too much time *talking
> >> about* writing and not enough time actually *doing* it, particularly
> >> with
> >> the likes of Guatney.
> >>
> >> Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book
> >> for
> >> designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything
> >> perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord
> >> knows
> >> they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more
> >> resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a
> >> three
> >> part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with
> >> a
> >> catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than
> >> everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with
> >> some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas,
> >> etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was
> >> presented
> >> in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs
> >> like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S
> >> does
> >> a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who
> >> wanted
> >> to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full
> >> crusade
> >> about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed fixes.
> >> We
> >> nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others did, I
> >> was
> >> busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It turned
> >> out
> >> pretty well.
> >>
> >> If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little
> >> things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE
> >> wasn't
> >> something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the
> >> "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too
> >> much
> >> complexity to their "perfect" game.
> >>
> >> Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."
I always wondered if EGG was totally upfront with GDW about his legal liabilities where TSR was concerned. My sense was that he was not, but not because he had evil intentions. It was just that he took a bad beat in a bad divorce and DJ was his last, best shot at doing something cool.
Also, it was common knowledge in the gaming industry that TSR was pretty litigious (the rumors that circulated around the local game shop were even worse). Add in the wacky ex factor and well...
As for freelancers, we were militia, and much like the militia that supported the American Continental Army, some were reliable, some...vaporized at the first sight of Redcoats (a deadline). Still, Washington and other military commanders had to rely on them and some of the best commanders, like Greene and Clark used them accomplish things that otherwise would have been impossible relying strictly on Continental regiments. Personally I wanted to give you A, but not being in Illinois, it made it challenging. The interactions you take for granted batting things back and forth around the office simply weren't there or...they...took...far...longer.... These days it would be much less difficult to get A, since Google Docs/Google Hangouts beats the hell out of fax, phone (at long distance rates), message boards, mailing lists, and the occasional GEnie live chat session for collaboration.
As for the balance of your remarks, the real problem are the "true believers". They are the ones that decide you have violated the scared texts (usually the ones you wrote) or because you wouldn't implement their idea, they decide to sabotage yours. I moved forward with getting Children of Earth published because well, it was "do now or don't do it", because whatever Frank might have had in mind wasn't going to happen, not to take a crap on your work, and I had enough ready or nearly so to make it a reality. I'd have much preferred it have a GDW logo on the cover, but oh well. More on that story later.
Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
Was that not the post-GDW Quick Ship Design System for T4?
Eamon
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 21/2/15, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
To:
Date: Saturday, 21 February, 2015, 16:00
I think it would help if we figured out using
FF&S what pieces/parts could feasibly be built at a
lower tech and plugged into the modular ships. Yes there
is what the books say the RC did, but then there is the
reality of what the game mechanics allow.
I also seem to recall that GDW
had plans for a sourcebook that would include pre-built
modules that players and referees could use in their own
modular ships. The Regency materials however ended up
getting priority and GDW folded up shop before they could
get around to it.
#yiv6064125984 div#yiv6064125984ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv6064125984ygrp-msg p a span.yiv6064125984yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}
-----Original Message-----
From: "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: 2/23/2015 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
"Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20 years ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions" development that could have gone to other product development that wouldn't have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers rather than settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were available at the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to work on the cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small amount of money even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over a couple of beers in 2015, but not something that's really worth going "full Guatney" over on the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few regrets I have about that whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW fax machine and running it out of paper with submissions) was spending far too much time *talking about* writing and not enough time actually *doing* it, particularly with the likes of Guatney.
Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book for designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord knows they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a three part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with a catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas, etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was presented in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S does a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who wanted to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full crusade about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed fixes. We nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others did, I was busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It turned out pretty well.
If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE wasn't something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too much complexity to their "perfect" game.
Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
Leroy W. Guatney was a HIWG member, and a very prolific poster on Traveller mailing lists back in the day.
Sent from my iPad
On 24 Feb 2015, at 15:27, "Chris [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
> Ya totally lost me on "full Gautney..."
> From: Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]
> Sent: 2/23/2015 3:28 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
>
>
> "Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20 years ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions" development that could have gone to other product development that wouldn't have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers rather than settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were available at the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to work on the cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small amount of money even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over a couple of beers in 2015, but not something that's really worth going "full Guatney" over on the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few regrets I have about that whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW fax machine and running it out of paper with submissions) was spending far too much time *talking about* writing and not enough time actually *doing* it, particularly with the likes of Guatney.
>
> Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book for designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord knows they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a three part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with a catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas, etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was presented in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S does a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who wanted to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full crusade about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed fixes. We nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others did, I was busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It turned out pretty well.
>
> If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE wasn't something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too much complexity to their "perfect" game.
>
> Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
>
EGG was, that stuff got all kinds of scrubbed beforehand because there
were licenses for computer games, minis, etc., and all of those people
demanded a clear path. What no one anticipated was that the Queen Bitch at
TSR (Lorraine?) had decided that it would be her mission to prevent EGG
from ever publishing anything else for the rest of his life as long as
either of them lived, and that unethical, strictly-speaking illegal
behavior was only unveiled with DJ. EGG was not without fault, his
behavior helped create the morass of bad feelings at TSR, but the due
diligence was done before DJ and the endless lawsuits "should not" have
happened, i.e., TSR didn't have a leg to stand on, it was just 800-pound
gorilla spite.
I don't want to appear to be arguing about use of freelancers, but it was
not as easy as it appears. Certainly with recent technology it would be
easier, and we didn't have that then. But the big thing was that TNE was
new, and we had to establish a lot of things about the feel and atmosphere
of the game, and that's a lot more subtle and fiddly and requires the kind
of intimate, FTF contact you mention. With a mature game you CAN farm out
a lot more stuff, because it is much more clear what is going on and what
"right" looks like, but TNE just wasn't there yet in the first couple of
years.
By the way, somewhere in the last couple of years I sent out a couple of
messages about how I feel bad about how CoE worked out, and I owed you an
apology. I always feared that NO MATTER WHAT you did it would not be
"useable" but it got to the point that I felt so bad fending you off that
I figured, "what the hell, he wants to try this, I feel mean fending him
off, maybe we'll get lucky." And my fears turned out to be borne out, so
then I got to feel bad about that too. I don't know if you ever saw those
posts, but the point is that I'm sorry that happened to you.
You touch on true believers and earlier touched on star generation. I
still believe I don't have to apologize to anyone for how seriously I took
trying to repair that to the extent possible, but I definitely got stuck
between a rock and a hard place between a full fix and pissing off the
true believers and the Sacred Collection of UWPs, and you know what
happens when you compromise. Definitely my fault that I couldn't find a
compromise that worked better, and the data was fussy and fiddly enough
that it was hard for me to properly supervise and proof it, but given the
number of people that didn't want me to mess with it at all, what did get
done was fairly "heroic," if incomplete.
Re: publishing CoE, no hard feelings there, you had a lot invested. The
only twinge I had about it was who you published it with, but I don't
blame you for that, he was probably the only real option.
> I always wondered if EGG was totally upfront with GDW about his legal
> liabilities where TSR was concerned. My sense was that he was not, but
> not because he had evil intentions. It was just that he took a bad beat
> in a bad divorce and DJ was his last, best shot at doing something cool.
>
> Also, it was common knowledge in the gaming industry that TSR was pretty
> litigious (the rumors that circulated around the local game shop were even
> worse). Add in the wacky ex factor and well...
> As for freelancers, we were militia, and much like the militia that
> supported the American Continental Army, some were reliable,
> some...vaporized at the first sight of Redcoats (a deadline). Still,
> Washington and other military commanders had to rely on them and some of
> the best commanders, like Greene and Clark used them accomplish things
> that otherwise would have been impossible relying strictly on Continental
> regiments. Personally I wanted to give you A, but not being in Illinois,
> it made it challenging. The interactions you take for granted batting
> things back and forth around the office simply weren't there
> or...they...took...far...longer.... These days it would be much less
> difficult to get A, since Google Docs/Google Hangouts beats the hell out
> of fax, phone (at long distance rates), message boards, mailing lists, and
> the occasional GEnie live chat session for collaboration.
> As for the balance of your remarks, the real problem are the "true
> believers". They are the ones that decide you have violated the scared
> texts (usually the ones you wrote) or because you wouldn't implement their
> idea, they decide to sabotage yours. I moved forward with getting
> Children of Earth published because well, it was "do now or don't do it",
> because whatever Frank might have had in mind wasn't going to happen, not
> to take a crap on your work, and I had enough ready or nearly so to make
> it a reality. I'd have much preferred it have a GDW logo on the cover,
> but oh well. More on that story later.
> Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
> courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
> and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy disk,
> or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
>
>
>
I vaguely recall Leroy Guatney as one of those polarizing names spoken
today only in hushed tones, like Roger/Rodger Sanger, but I just think of
them like Cthulhu or Krampus.
> Ya totally lost me on "full Gautney..."
>
> -----Original Message-----
From: "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: â2/â23/â2015 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
>
>
> "Duh" also gets us into areas where we can talk about priorities 20 years
> ago (e.g. how much time was wasted on "Dangerous Journey/Dimensions"
> development that could have gone to other product development that
> wouldn't have caused TSR to get all crampy and reach for their lawyers
> rather than settling for Midol...?), what freelance writer resources were
> available at the time to increase the workforce pool (people willing to
> work on the cheap, not that $20k a year wasn't an embarrassing small
> amount of money even back then), etc. It's a cool discussion to have over
> a couple of beers in 2015, but not something that's really worth going
> "full Guatney" over on the Internet anymore. Actually, one of the few
> regrets I have about that whole era (aside from almost breaking the GDW
> fax machine and running it out of paper with submissions) was spending far
> too much time *talking about* writing and not enough time actually *doing*
> it, particularly with the likes of Guatney.
>
>
>
> Of course it was always going to be impossible to come up with a book for
> designing "everything" and even more impossible to design everything
> perfectly, not even Steve Jackson Games has managed that, though lord
> knows they've probably tried at various points and had considerably more
> resources in terms of staff and such to pull it off. Really, it's a three
> part problem. Players and most GMs would have been perfectly happy with a
> catalog of "low tech" stuff that was essentially nothing more than
> everything out of T:2000, 2nd ed. re-branded for the sci-fi setting with
> some additional add-ons (rifle for your scope, longer range antennas,
> etc.). A separate catalog with high tech stuff (beyond what was presented
> in the RCES Equipment Guide) and they would have been golden. Some GMs
> like to design their own campaign critical stuff from scratch and FF&S
> does a good job there. For writers though...particularly those of us who
> wanted to get published, the details mattered. I personally went on full
> crusade about how the stellar generation system was broken and proposed
> fixes. We nagged about "nerfed" energy weapons....and M16s. Well, others
> did, I was busy designing TL 12 gauss rifle equivalents of the AK-47. It
> turned out pretty well.
>
>
>
> If it seemed like people were giving GDW way too much flak about little
> things, it was because we cared. Consider it a compliment. If TNE wasn't
> something we cared about, we could have easily joined the ranks of the
> "luddites" that thought that High Guard might have added a little too much
> complexity to their "perfect" game.
>
>
> Now see I'm off in the weeds, Droynes...hmm...yeah kinda cool.
>
>
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
wrote:
>Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
>courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
>and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
>disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
If you copy me on them ifwhen you find them (or recreate them), I'll be
happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.
Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:
CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't want you to get in any trouble.
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
---In , <> wrote :
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
wrote:
>Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
>courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
>and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
>disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll be
happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.
Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:
CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
Isn't this where Phill and Dixie come in trying to do Sex and Traveller but always getting shut down before the final panel?
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 6:45 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't want you to get in any trouble.
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
>
>
> ---In , <> wrote :
>
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
> wrote:
>
> >Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
> >courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
> >and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
> >disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
>
> If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll be
> happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
>
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller
> The Electronic Fan-Supported
> Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
>
>
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
>
>
>
> ®Traveller is a registered trademark of
> Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
> the trademark in this notice and in the
> referenced materials is not intended to
> infringe or devalue the trademark.
>
> Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
> enterprises for hosting services:
>
> CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
> The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
>
On 24 Feb 2015 06:45:56 -0800, you wrote to Freelance Traveller:
>Jeff,
>Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has
>always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an
>R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't
>want you to get in any trouble.
I can't find anything that suggests that there is an explicit limitation
on the "rating" of material; the "Keep it PG" apparently has been an
implied thing. My take on this is (1) as long as there are no *explicit*
*gratuitous* references to or descriptions of sex, there should be no
problem, and (2) if Marc feels that there *is* a problem, I will remove
the offending material.
Given that there are some pretty clear implications of ... mutual
entertainment ... in Andrea Vallance's "Funny Fish" stories, and I've
not heard word one about them, I'd guess that a Courtesan career along
the lines of a Firefly/Serenity "Companion" - or the common (but
inaccurate) perception of Japanese geisha - would likely pass muster.
I'd be less certain about a character career that focussed on the
straight-up "red light district" and its "service industry". Honestly,
though, I don't see the *common* sex worker (i.e., red light district
prostitute) as a viable player-character type, whereas the
courtesan/companion/geisha does have possibilities for adventure.
>\_/
>DED
>TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
>
>---In , <> wrote :
>
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
> wrote:
>
> >Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
> >courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
> >and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
> >disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
>
> If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll be
> happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
>
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller
> The Electronic Fan-Supported
> Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
>
>
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
>
>
>
> ®Traveller is a registered trademark of
> Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
> the trademark in this notice and in the
> referenced materials is not intended to
> infringe or devalue the trademark.
>
> Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
> enterprises for hosting services:
>
> CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
> The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.
Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:
CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
-----Original Message-----
From: "Derek Stanley [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: â2/â24/â2015 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
Isn't this where Phill and Dixie come in trying to do Sex and Traveller but always getting shut down before the final panel?
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 24, 2015, at 6:45 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
Jeff,
Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't want you to get in any trouble.
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
---In , <> wrote :
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
wrote:
>Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
>courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
>and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
>disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll be
happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.
Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:
CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
I had the same thought. I never missed the absence of sex in Trav, it's
unnecessary, plus there is some level of active policy against it.
> Jeff,
>
> Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has
> always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an
> R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't want
> you to get in any trouble.
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
>
> ---In , <> wrote
> :
>
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
> wrote:
>
> >Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
> >courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
> >and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
> >disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
>
> If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll be
> happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
>
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller
> The Electronic Fan-Supported
> Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
>
>
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
>
>
>
> ®Traveller is a registered trademark of
> Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
> the trademark in this notice and in the
> referenced materials is not intended to
> infringe or devalue the trademark.
>
> Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
> enterprises for hosting services:
>
> CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
> The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
>
>
That's a good "old school" recognition challenge, like Joe DiMaggio's
batting average in the Ardennes.
> Isn't this where Phill and Dixie come in trying to do Sex and Traveller
> but always getting shut down before the final panel?
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 6:45 AM, [Traveller_TNE]
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has
>> always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an
>> R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't
>> want you to get in any trouble.
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---In , <>
>> wrote :
>>
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
>> >courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
>> >and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
>> >disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
>>
>> If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll
>> be
>> happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>> Freelance Traveller
>> The Electronic Fan-Supported
>> Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
>>
>>
>> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>> http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> ®Traveller is a registered trademark of
>> Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
>> the trademark in this notice and in the
>> referenced materials is not intended to
>> infringe or devalue the trademark.
>>
>> Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
>> enterprises for hosting services:
>>
>> CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
>> The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
>>
>
"Full Guatney" - Named for Leroy Guatney, a former HIWG member, who became a complete liability to organization because of his trolling and general attitude. Long story short, I don't think there was a single thing I did he ever actually liked, and eventually the feeling became mutual (which was a bit sad, because I liked his work on "Atlas of the Imperium"). He wasn't happy merely trolling however. He eventually engaged in personal attacks against me, and all but sabotaged the organization when he didn't get his way. There's more to the story, but the lesson I learned out of the whole sorry incident is that feeding a troll drains you, just don't.
Going "full Guatney" is to take a stand over something because of "principle" (even if you are in the wrong) and get locked into a moronic flame war as a result.
-----Original Message-----
From: " [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: â2/â24/â2015 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
That's a good "old school" recognition challenge, like Joe DiMaggio's
batting average in the Ardennes.
> Isn't this where Phill and Dixie come in trying to do Sex and Traveller
> but always getting shut down before the final panel?
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 6:45 AM, [Traveller_TNE]
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> Is that safe? I know that there's been an unwritten rule that MM has
>> always wanted Traveller to remain PG. Would posting those rules (an
>> R-rated concept) be in violation of FFE's fan website terms? I don't
>> want you to get in any trouble.
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---In , <>
>> wrote :
>>
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 05:37:33 +0000 (UTC), Harold Hale
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Somewhere on a crashed hard drive lay the TNE rules for creating
>> >courtesans/prostitutes/and other sex workers. It was well thought out
>> >and if I ever manage to find a copy saved to a ZIP drive or a floppy
>> >disk, or hard copy some place, I'll post them here.
>>
>> If you copy me on them if when you find them (or recreate them), I'll
>> be
>> happy to give them a second home at Freelance Traveller...
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>> Freelance Traveller
>> The Electronic Fan-Supported
>> Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
>>
>>
>> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>> http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> ®Traveller is a registered trademark of
>> Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
>> the trademark in this notice and in the
>> referenced materials is not intended to
>> infringe or devalue the trademark.
>>
>> Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
>> enterprises for hosting services:
>>
>> CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
>> The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
>>
>
EGG, TSR: GDW got a good portion of the money out of the investment it made in DJ, or at least that is what Loren and Frank's press release said. What couldn't be replaced was the wasted time. As you have indicated elsewhere, that was in constant short supply or more precious than gold.
Freelancers: All the joys of cat herding combined with the efficiency of 19th century strip mining. Still, it wasn't like hiring at least another couple of staff members full time to work on Traveller was ever going to happen. Even if it had, CCGs... :-P
Children of Earth: Looking back 20 years later, I really didn't do a good job selling it to you. Certainly my initial presentation could have been much better. But ultimately unless you bought the essential premise, that you could do a story in which religion *may* be a central theme in a sci-fi setting, and it could hold together without becoming "jihadists in space" (actually I was aiming more for the Spanish in the New World during the Age of Exploration), then none of the other cool stuff associated with it mattered. For what it's worth though, I never saw the Terrans marching relentless out in all directions conquering the Universe. Indeed, I saw the storyline developing such that I wanted to avoid contact between the RC and the Terrans as long as possible, and then it would have been the sort encounter where the RC would not be particularly impressed with the Terrans, nor the Terrans all that interested in contact with "Hiver client states". The Terrans focus would be firmly rimward and on the Dingir League spinward, oh and whatever was going on trailing in the area simply known as "The Abyss" (around Cymbeline). Ultimately the Terrans would have certainly showed up for the final big showdown with whatever was behind the Black Curtain, but they were more a replacement for the Solomani Confederation in the end, not co-founders of any new Imperium.
The Stars: You did what you could. Ultimately it's hard to have an intelligent conversation with the detractors on the issue when they think a 'M6D' means that the star is a red dwarf (no, that's a M6V) or a brown dwarf (no, those have a different designation) or they get that 'D' means white dwarf, but don't understand that a white dwarf that dim would be very, very rare, not the most common star on the bloody star map.
Kevin Knight: I think he had the best of intentions, but he clearly wasn't ready to make the transition from being a wrangler of freelancers and journal publisher to being a full time publisher of sourcebooks. Heck, I even toyed with the idea of taking over Kevin's magazine and doing some TNE manuals when I was sort of between jobs, and even found an investor. When we looked over the numbers after the license fee though...nope. Publishing in that era and making money at it was hard--too hard ultimately for GDW, TSR, Avalon Hill, and a number of other major industry players. Publishing when you don't own the copyright? That would have been the real science-fiction. I'm still trying to figure out how the market dynamics changed to make it doable again...or maybe they haven't and people who want to publish just find a way.
So we can have characters that have been pirates, ruthless mercenaries, thugs, and other dregs of society, but if they dropped their pants for cash...
Actually, I would expect in the Third Imperium at least that "lower end" ladies and gentlemen of the night would have been replaced by sexbots and that people have to pay for sex with a real person by going through the ancient ritual of buying them dinner first.
As the average age of this mailing list is probably well over 40, I feel reasonably comfortable making that joke.
I've watched and been a part of PC's getting into running gun battles in shopping malls and blowing the hatches on a passenger ship. The morality quandary has always bothered me, it's okay to kill hundreds but god help us if someone wants to mention the prostitues doing business on the corner.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> So we can have characters that have been pirates, ruthless mercenaries, thugs, and other dregs of society, but if they dropped their pants for cash...
>
> Actually, I would expect in the Third Imperium at least that "lower end" ladies and gentlemen of the night would have been replaced by sexbots and that people have to pay for sex with a real person by going through the ancient ritual of buying them dinner first.
>
> As the average age of this mailing list is probably well over 40, I feel reasonably comfortable making that joke.
>
>
EGG, TSR, DJ, $: I'm sure that any press releases were intended to put a
good face on things. And I don't mean that deceitfully. The DJ lawsuit to
the contrary (it was a personal vendetta sort of thing), until WoTC the
game industry was like one big family that had spats and fights but
remained a family. It took WoTC and their MBA talk and their
Lockheed-Martin tradeshow BS to turn the whole thing into the scorched
earth they created. And the press release was written against that family
ethic before it was clear that the family had been murdered with
deliberate malice aforethought.
As to the money, I never knew the details, mostly because I didn't care,
and it was important to some people to keep that insider-y and secret, but
we were in early retrenchment mode at that point (we didn't replace Les
when he left, I just had to take over DJ and DC) and the money went to
cover sunk costs like print runs. IIRC the press releases said something
like, "we didn't have to pay anything to TSR," but that doesn't mean the
investment was covered or the books balanced.
CoE: You shouldn't feel like you failed in any way, this goes back to
squishy things like feel and tone in a line that was still trying to
establish those for the first time. Again, IIRC, CoE felt too big and
organized, which could have been adjusted, but Conquistadors in Space
(that's not a dig, just shorthand) didn't feel right. Personally I am
intrigued by religion in space, but I don't think it felt like a good fit
for TNE or Traveller in general. There's a tendency/need to shorthand the
major polities, and if the Solomani had previously been "Nazi Nutjobs" did
we want to go with "Religious Nutjobs?" If religion has become ascendant
where it previously was not salient, what are the mechanisms by which that
happened? And I want to emphasize that I made none of those decisions
about your work. I already felt bad for fending you off and fearing that I
had allowed you to undertake a hopeless errand, so I punted it to Frank.
His answer that he wanted something like the Terran Confederation goes
back to feel and tone and shorthand and caricature, and Confederation has
a not-overly-colorful quality that makes it easier to work with when you
don't intend for it to steal focus from other things.
Stars: And that all of those luminosity classes are stages of
metamorphosis and white dwarfs have killed most of their systems off. I
also personally don't believe that multiple star systems, as common as
they might be, are conducive to liveable environments, much less poor
referees who have to figure out what is going on there.
KK: My quibble with him was the way he would periodically call us up and
say, "I'm going to publish the official TNE XX Sourcebook, let me know if
you have any requests," and then argue with us for a few weeks that his
Marc party-favor fanzine license gave him control over GDW's IP. Kevin
Sembieda (sp? first name?) used to threaten to sue us once or twice a year
(over words like Recon), and eventually KK became as much of a welcome
name as KS. There are some things that people could do out of simple
innocence and naivete, but if they keep doing it, it starts to appear
weasely.
Market dynamics: Probably some combination of print-on-demand, pinpoint
Internet marketing, crowd-sourcing, and people doing it on the side. GDW
was the last wargame company with full-time staffs, but arguably we were a
wargame company that had become an RPG company. The world needs more
gamers who own lucrative Italian shoe companies.
To recap, I'm not going to be a stickler about you saying, "I forgive
you," but I do genuinely owe you an apology. If I could have found a way
to not let you make an unlikely gamble I would have, but at the time that
was the best I could manage. And in the spirit of Kirk's "you can't take
away my pain, I need my pain," you are probably happier having made the
effort against apocalyptic odds anyway.
> EGG, TSR: GDW got a good portion of the money out of the investment it
> made in DJ, or at least that is what Loren and Frank's press release said.
> What couldn't be replaced was the wasted time. As you have indicated
> elsewhere, that was in constant short supply or more precious than gold.
> Freelancers: All the joys of cat herding combined with the efficiency of
> 19th century strip mining. Still, it wasn't like hiring at least another
> couple of staff members full time to work on Traveller was ever going to
> happen. Even if it had, CCGs... :-P
> Children of Earth: Looking back 20 years later, I really didn't do a good
> job selling it to you. Certainly my initial presentation could have been
> much better. But ultimately unless you bought the essential premise, that
> you could do a story in which religion *may* be a central theme in a
> sci-fi setting, and it could hold together without becoming "jihadists in
> space" (actually I was aiming more for the Spanish in the New World during
> the Age of Exploration), then none of the other cool stuff associated with
> it mattered. For what it's worth though, I never saw the Terrans marching
> relentless out in all directions conquering the Universe. Indeed, I saw
> the storyline developing such that I wanted to avoid contact between the
> RC and the Terrans as long as possible, and then it would have been the
> sort encounter where the RC would not be particularly impressed with the
> Terrans, nor the Terrans all that interested in contact with "Hiver client
> states". The Terrans focus would be firmly rimward and on the Dingir
> League spinward, oh and whatever was going on trailing in the area simply
> known as "The Abyss" (around Cymbeline). Ultimately the Terrans would have
> certainly showed up for the final big showdown with whatever was behind
> the Black Curtain, but they were more a replacement for the Solomani
> Confederation in the end, not co-founders of any new Imperium.
>
> The Stars: You did what you could. Ultimately it's hard to have an
> intelligent conversation with the detractors on the issue when they think
> a 'M6D' means that the star is a red dwarf (no, that's a M6V) or a brown
> dwarf (no, those have a different designation) or they get that 'D' means
> white dwarf, but don't understand that a white dwarf that dim would be
> very, very rare, not the most common star on the bloody star map.
>
> Kevin Knight: I think he had the best of intentions, but he clearly wasn't
> ready to make the transition from being a wrangler of freelancers and
> journal publisher to being a full time publisher of sourcebooks. Heck, I
> even toyed with the idea of taking over Kevin's magazine and doing some
> TNE manuals when I was sort of between jobs, and even found an investor.
> When we looked over the numbers after the license fee though...nope.
> Publishing in that era and making money at it was hard--too hard
> ultimately for GDW, TSR, Avalon Hill, and a number of other major industry
> players. Publishing when you don't own the copyright? That would have been
> the real science-fiction. I'm still trying to figure out how the market
> dynamics changed to make it doable again...or maybe they haven't and
> people who want to publish just find a way.
>
>
Double standards are an unalienable human right. I can say that about my
mother, but you can't.
> So we can have characters that have been pirates, ruthless mercenaries,
> thugs, and other dregs of society, but if they dropped their pants for
> cash...
> Actually, I would expect in the Third Imperium at least that "lower end"
> ladies and gentlemen of the night would have been replaced by sexbots and
> that people have to pay for sex with a real person by going through the
> ancient ritual of buying them dinner first.
> As the average age of this mailing list is probably well over 40, I feel
> reasonably comfortable making that joke.
>
>
For me it's not an issue of morality. Sex has a sticky quality to it, and
as it has taken over the rest of your surroundings, why give up your RPG
to it as well? And sex done in media which wish to remain otherwise
"reputable" has a false and pandering quality to it. A "realistic" level
of the "biological process" is easily left to the refs. You don't want
pesky biological distractions getting in the way of mass murder in your
RPGs.
> Hence the typical PC party make up meme.
>
> I've watched and been a part of PC's getting into running gun battles in
> shopping malls and blowing the hatches on a passenger ship. The morality
> quandary has always bothered me, it's okay to kill hundreds but god help
> us if someone wants to mention the prostitues doing business on the
> corner.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Harold Hale
>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> So we can have characters that have been pirates, ruthless mercenaries,
>> thugs, and other dregs of society, but if they dropped their pants for
>> cash...
>>
>> Actually, I would expect in the Third Imperium at least that "lower end"
>> ladies and gentlemen of the night would have been replaced by sexbots
>> and that people have to pay for sex with a real person by going through
>> the ancient ritual of buying them dinner first.
>>
>> As the average age of this mailing list is probably well over 40, I feel
>> reasonably comfortable making that joke.
>>
>>
>
It tends to be a peripheral thing in my games, it's there if the players really want to go looking for it and I may through in an odd reference to the hooker on the corner while providing an overly detailed description of the hotel they're about to enter. I like throwing in odd off the cuff details that really don't relate to the world at large but are kind of the odd things that stick out when people look about a room. Like that odd piece of crown moulding at the top of the room that doesn't quite connect to the ceiling properly.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 1:35 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> For me it's not an issue of morality. Sex has a sticky quality to it, and
> as it has taken over the rest of your surroundings, why give up your RPG
> to it as well? And sex done in media which wish to remain otherwise
> "reputable" has a false and pandering quality to it. A "realistic" level
> of the "biological process" is easily left to the refs. You don't want
> pesky biological distractions getting in the way of mass murder in your
> RPGs.
>
> > Hence the typical PC party make up meme.
> >
> > I've watched and been a part of PC's getting into running gun battles in
> > shopping malls and blowing the hatches on a passenger ship. The morality
> > quandary has always bothered me, it's okay to kill hundreds but god help
> > us if someone wants to mention the prostitues doing business on the
> > corner.
> >
> > Derek Stanley
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On Feb 24, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Harold Hale
> >> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
> >>
> >> So we can have characters that have been pirates, ruthless mercenaries,
> >> thugs, and other dregs of society, but if they dropped their pants for
> >> cash...
> >>
> >> Actually, I would expect in the Third Imperium at least that "lower end"
> >> ladies and gentlemen of the night would have been replaced by sexbots
> >> and that people have to pay for sex with a real person by going through
> >> the ancient ritual of buying them dinner first.
> >>
> >> As the average age of this mailing list is probably well over 40, I feel
> >> reasonably comfortable making that joke.
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
We needed a design sequence for crown moldings. And chair rails. And
whaddaya call 'em, wainscotings. Wainscoting only has one "t" I just
learned.
> It tends to be a peripheral thing in my games, it's there if the players
> really want to go looking for it and I may through in an odd reference to
> the hooker on the corner while providing an overly detailed description of
> the hotel they're about to enter. I like throwing in odd off the cuff
> details that really don't relate to the world at large but are kind of the
> odd things that stick out when people look about a room. Like that odd
> piece of crown moulding at the top of the room that doesn't quite connect
> to the ceiling properly.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 1:35 PM, [Traveller_TNE]
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> For me it's not an issue of morality. Sex has a sticky quality to it,
>> and
>> as it has taken over the rest of your surroundings, why give up your
>> RPG
>> to it as well? And sex done in media which wish to remain otherwise
>> "reputable" has a false and pandering quality to it. A "realistic"
>> level
>> of the "biological process" is easily left to the refs. You don't want
>> pesky biological distractions getting in the way of mass murder in your
>> RPGs.
>>
>> > Hence the typical PC party make up meme.
>> >
>> > I've watched and been a part of PC's getting into running gun battles
>> in
>> > shopping malls and blowing the hatches on a passenger ship. The
>> morality
>> > quandary has always bothered me, it's okay to kill hundreds but god
>> help
>> > us if someone wants to mention the prostitues doing business on the
>> > corner.
>> >
>> > Derek Stanley
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> >> On Feb 24, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Harold Hale
>> >> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So we can have characters that have been pirates, ruthless
>> mercenaries,
>> >> thugs, and other dregs of society, but if they dropped their pants
>> for
>> >> cash...
>> >>
>> >> Actually, I would expect in the Third Imperium at least that "lower
>> end"
>> >> ladies and gentlemen of the night would have been replaced by
>> sexbots
>> >> and that people have to pay for sex with a real person by going
>> through
>> >> the ancient ritual of buying them dinner first.
>> >>
>> >> As the average age of this mailing list is probably well over 40, I
>> feel
>> >> reasonably comfortable making that joke.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>
It's also coting which surprised me I always pronounced it coating.
From: []
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:50 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
We needed a design sequence for crown moldings. And chair rails. And
whaddaya call 'em, wainscotings. Wainscoting only has one "t" I just
learned.
> It tends to be a peripheral thing in my games, it's there if the players
> really want to go looking for it and I may through in an odd reference to
> the hooker on the corner while providing an overly detailed description of
> the hotel they're about to enter. I like throwing in odd off the cuff
> details that really don't relate to the world at large but are kind of the
> odd things that stick out when people look about a room. Like that odd
> piece of crown moulding at the top of the room that doesn't quite connect
> to the ceiling properly.
>
> Derek Stanley
My theory on detailing a space for player characters is always to include
odd details, I'm not sure about the rest of you but my eyes are typically
drawn to the odd details the gold leaf that's flaking off, the plaster
that's sagging in the middle of the wall, the 1 tin plate that's been
replaced at the edge of the ceiling.
From: []
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 4:55 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
It's also coting which surprised me I always pronounced it coating.
From: <>
[]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:50 PM
To: <>
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
We needed a design sequence for crown moldings. And chair rails. And
whaddaya call 'em, wainscotings. Wainscoting only has one "t" I just
learned.
> It tends to be a peripheral thing in my games, it's there if the players
> really want to go looking for it and I may through in an odd reference to
> the hooker on the corner while providing an overly detailed description of
> the hotel they're about to enter. I like throwing in odd off the cuff
> details that really don't relate to the world at large but are kind of the
> odd things that stick out when people look about a room. Like that odd
> piece of crown moulding at the top of the room that doesn't quite connect
> to the ceiling properly.
>
> Derek Stanley
With one "t" it would normally be pronounced with a long "o" which is why
I assumed it was two "t"s given the short "o" pronunciation. It is
important to bore and annoy NSA and Google operatives monitoring us. The
words "jihadist," "mass murder," "drug smuggling," and "Columbia" were
used here today. The white swallows are flying low. I say again, the WHITE
SWALLOWS are flying LOW.
> It's also coting which surprised me I always pronounced it coating.
>
>
>
> From: []
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:50 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: What do Hivers know about the Droyne?
>
>
>
>
>
> We needed a design sequence for crown moldings. And chair rails. And
> whaddaya call 'em, wainscotings. Wainscoting only has one "t" I just
> learned.
>
>> It tends to be a peripheral thing in my games, it's there if the players
>> really want to go looking for it and I may through in an odd reference
>> to
>> the hooker on the corner while providing an overly detailed description
>> of
>> the hotel they're about to enter. I like throwing in odd off the cuff
>> details that really don't relate to the world at large but are kind of
>> the
>> odd things that stick out when people look about a room. Like that odd
>> piece of crown moulding at the top of the room that doesn't quite
>> connect
>> to the ceiling properly.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>
>
>
>
Given what I know about government and corporate surveillance of the Internet...I pretty much figure they have a file on me dating from the early 90s and decided I was harmless years ago.
#yiv4159656603 div#yiv4159656603ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4159656603ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4159656603yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}
There was going to be a book "The Long Ships, The Clipper Sourcebook," or
words to that effect. Lots and lots and lots of modules, but it didn't get
very far. See my previous whinging about reviewing ship designs.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:46 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
> I just wanted to add that I have never been one to worry because a design
> sequence can't re-create with exact fidelity real world or historical
> artefact X or Y. I know many hours and bytes were wasted on the TML by
> complaints that somebody's M16 or Me262 didn't turn out just right.
>
I like to remember all the silly things that we could produce with that set
of rules. Orbit capable Pogo Stick anyone?
I just liked getting in the ball park with a minimum amount of kludging.
But i am the rules are a suggested set of guidelines sorta guy. It's not
like we are going to hold a tournament with these designs to see whose Idea
is the absolute best....
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Eamon Watters
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> Leroy W. Guatney was a HIWG member, and a very prolific poster on
> Traveller mailing lists back in the day.
>
>
Naw, the 9 months he was on the TML just seemed longer....
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> We needed a design sequence for crown moldings. And chair rails. And
> whaddaya call 'em, wainscotings. Wainscoting only has one "t" I just
> learned.
>
>
Your Right I don't Rising Damp was ever sufficiently covered in any edition
of Traveller.
Though I would say Chamax covered the entire creeping vermin tunneling
through the woodwork topic.
"It's not like we are going to hold a tournament with these designs to see
whose Idea is the absolute best...."
If only because "The most amusing" is more interesting.
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:46 AM, [Traveller_TNE]
> <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> I just wanted to add that I have never been one to worry because a
>> design
>> sequence can't re-create with exact fidelity real world or historical
>> artefact X or Y. I know many hours and bytes were wasted on the TML by
>> complaints that somebody's M16 or Me262 didn't turn out just right.
>>
>
>
> I like to remember all the silly things that we could produce with that
> set
> of rules. Orbit capable Pogo Stick anyone?
>
>
> I just liked getting in the ball park with a minimum amount of kludging.
> But i am the rules are a suggested set of guidelines sorta guy. It's not
> like we are going to hold a tournament with these designs to see whose
> Idea
> is the absolute best....
>
> --
> Evyn
>
Your first defense against Chamax is a good wainscoting.
> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> We needed a design sequence for crown moldings. And chair rails. And
>> whaddaya call 'em, wainscotings. Wainscoting only has one "t" I just
>> learned.
>>
>>
> Your Right I don't Rising Damp was ever sufficiently covered in any
> edition
> of Traveller.
>
> Though I would say Chamax covered the entire creeping vermin tunneling
> through the woodwork topic.
>
> --
> Evyn
>
Well, there was that one time at GENCON when I managed to stop a RCES raid on a world using an old SDB. In theory I was hopelessly outclassed. But then I released the "hounds" in the form of a wave of missiles at them. By the time the smoke cleared the SDB crew mostly sacrificed their lives for their TED, but the RCES forces had taken some pretty bad damage.
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:32 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> "It's not like we are going to hold a tournament with these designs to see
> whose Idea is the absolute best...."
>
> If only because "The most amusing" is more interesting.
>
>
Without Most Amusing we wouldn't have characters Like Ditze and the rest of
the Family Spoflume >sp?<.
One of my players named all of his characters "Cheaplaugh of [capital of
US enemy]," Cheaplaugh of Hanoi, Cheaplaugh of Tehran, etc. My first
Traveller character in 1978 was Freeman Lowell, after Silent Running, and
for a while all of my characters were other brothers in the Lowell family.
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:32 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "It's not like we are going to hold a tournament with these designs to
>> see
>> whose Idea is the absolute best...."
>>
>> If only because "The most amusing" is more interesting.
>>
>>
> Without Most Amusing we wouldn't have characters Like Ditze and the rest
> of
> the Family Spoflume >sp?<.
>
> --
> Evyn
>
Who ran that? Was it post-GDW or during-GDW? I can't remember running a
TNE game at a Con. Although I did have a big BL demo kit, so I must have
run something once or twice.
> Well, there was that one time at GENCON when I managed to stop a RCES raid
> on a world using an old SDB. In theory I was hopelessly outclassed.Â
> But then I released the "hounds" in the form of a wave of missiles at
> them. By the time the smoke cleared the SDB crew mostly sacrificed their
> lives for their TED, but the RCES forces had taken some pretty bad damage.
>