Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its true that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all the licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has gone out the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller, besides all the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one Era to another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget don't hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please do, thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for us. I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing something, that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it. This way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can choose to keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of their choosing.
I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as one. When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a sticker reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo from one end to the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but FF&S-1 doesn't have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo master tells us to shift a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't have to cut cards to see who gets to shot him in the backside.
So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share anything you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's gold mine.
Roger
It felt like fan material to me, which IIRC it was before GT.
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 07:24 [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its true
> that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all the
> licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has gone out
> the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller, besides all
> the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one Era to
> another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget don't
> hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please do,
> thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for us.
> I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing something,
> that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it. This
> way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can choose to
> keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of their
> choosing.
>
> I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons
> maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as one.
> When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a sticker
> reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo from one end to
> the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but FF&S-1 doesn't
> have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo master tells us to shift
> a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't have to cut cards to
> see who gets to shot him in the backside.
>
> So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share anything
> you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's gold
> mine.
>
> Roger
>
>
on your comment about cargo shifting. I had fun creating a "seagoing"
version of the petty. Yes it was a starship, and yes, it was constructed to
look like a sea vessel. Including a Boom style crane that folded down to
the deck for flight. I just considered it to be 2 tons displacement and 4
tons mass. likewise an MHD turbine for thrust in the ocean for that
'authentic sonar sound'. 2 tns displacement and mass. handwavium for cost
as it was truthfully window dressing for a first contact ship on an ocean
world. In fact, when I was don it downright resembled an LST from WW2, in
case anyone here has ever read 'the ninety and 9'.
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Master Uxi
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> It felt like fan material to me, which IIRC it was before GT.
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 07:24 [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its
>> true that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all the
>> licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has gone out
>> the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller, besides all
>> the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one Era to
>> another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget don't
>> hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please do,
>> thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for us.
>> I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing something,
>> that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it. This
>> way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can choose to
>> keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of their
>> choosing.
>>
>> I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons
>> maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as one.
>> When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a sticker
>> reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo from one end to
>> the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but FF&S-1 doesn't
>> have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo master tells us to shift
>> a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't have to cut cards to
>> see who gets to shot him in the backside.
>>
>> So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share anything
>> you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's gold
>> mine.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>>
>
--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."
My approach has always been that the "waste" volume in hangarage always
included gantry cranes, overhead trolleys, tracks, etc., and that would
apply to "cargo space" as well. But as you point out, that doesn't give
you much for color, how many tracks, how far apart, etc. The big thing is
the differentiation between true cargo hold and the miscellaneous leftover
space that often passes for "cargo" but really isn't set up to be that
useful. Definitely a notch above the crown molding, chair rail, and
wainscoting design sequence.
Depending on where you're at, simply cutting the artificial gravity to the
cargo area is how I assume most of that sort of thing is done. Similarly,
grav compensation technology (that allows a ship to maneuver without
splatting all of the internal contents around) ought to allow you to
create Zero-G or reduced G even when grounded, but I don't recall the
rules going into that level of detail, including, "can I cut/raise/reverse
G to this space but not the other?"
We got at the similar dynamic of passenger loading/unloading through the
interaction between hatch and seat size, but didn't go all the way with
cargo.
I like the idea of the hand thruster, but again my assumption is that a
"vacc suit" is not simply a garment that holds your atmosphere but leaves
you an inert, helpless lump, but has to include maneuvering aids in the
limbs or "backpack." Back to cargo, "grav grippers" or "grav handtrucks"
or "grav forklifts" must exist, but much of that is standard equipment
either aboard the ship or at the starport, included along with a couple
threadbare cargo blankets, included in the port fees. There's always room
for more fun detail. I've always been of two minds about equipment books.
On the one hand, some people find the equivalent of number 2 pencils,
paper clips, tire jacks, etc., useful, especially for color, but a lot of
that stuff ends up being ignored in favor of the sexier things, mostly
weapons.
> Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its true
> that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all the
> licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has gone
> out the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller,
> besides all the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one Era
> to another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget don't
> hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please do,
> thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for us.
> I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing something,
> that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it.
> This way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can choose
> to keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of
> their choosing.
> I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons
> maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as
> one. When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a
> sticker reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo from
> one end to the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but
> FF&S-1 doesn't have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo master
> tells us to shift a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't
> have to cut cards to see who gets to shot him in the backside.
> So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share anything
> you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's gold
> mine.
> Roger
>
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 10:50, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> My approach has always been that the "waste" volume in hangarage always
> included gantry cranes, overhead trolleys, tracks, etc., and that would
> apply to "cargo space" as well. But as you point out, that doesn't give
> you much for color, how many tracks, how far apart, etc. The big thing is
> the differentiation between true cargo hold and the miscellaneous leftover
> space that often passes for "cargo" but really isn't set up to be that
> useful. Definitely a notch above the crown molding, chair rail, and
> wainscoting design sequence.
>
> Depending on where you're at, simply cutting the artificial gravity to the
> cargo area is how I assume most of that sort of thing is done. Similarly,
> grav compensation technology (that allows a ship to maneuver without
> splatting all of the internal contents around) ought to allow you to
> create Zero-G or reduced G even when grounded, but I don't recall the
> rules going into that level of detail, including, "can I cut/raise/reverse
> G to this space but not the other?"
>
> We got at the similar dynamic of passenger loading/unloading through the
> interaction between hatch and seat size, but didn't go all the way with
> cargo.
>
> I like the idea of the hand thruster, but again my assumption is that a
> "vacc suit" is not simply a garment that holds your atmosphere but leaves
> you an inert, helpless lump, but has to include maneuvering aids in the
> limbs or "backpack." Back to cargo, "grav grippers" or "grav handtrucks"
> or "grav forklifts" must exist, but much of that is standard equipment
> either aboard the ship or at the starport, included along with a couple
> threadbare cargo blankets, included in the port fees. There's always room
> for more fun detail. I've always been of two minds about equipment books.
> On the one hand, some people find the equivalent of number 2 pencils,
> paper clips, tire jacks, etc., useful, especially for color, but a lot of
> that stuff ends up being ignored in favor of the sexier things, mostly
> weapons.
>
> > Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its true
> > that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all the
> > licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has gone
> > out the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller,
> > besides all the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one Era
> > to another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget don't
> > hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please do,
> > thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for us.
> > I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing something,
> > that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it.
> > This way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can choose
> > to keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of
> > their choosing.
> > I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons
> > maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as
> > one. When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a
> > sticker reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo from
> > one end to the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but
> > FF&S-1 doesn't have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo master
> > tells us to shift a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't
> > have to cut cards to see who gets to shot him in the backside.
> > So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share anything
> > you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's gold
> > mine.
> > Roger
> >
>
>
Cranes were something that periodically indicted me with their necessity.
As an example, that spindly elbow boom that Kirk put on the recovery
vehicle in RCVG. Cranes are rightly important and valuable capital and
wanted more detail, but the big discontinuity introduced by CG made the
pay-off pretty low. You could make a really, really good crane design
sequence, which includes how hybrid, then fully CG-enabled systems worked,
but it would be essentially passed over in favor of sexier things (that go
boom) kind of like World Tamer's Handbook. Lots of useful stuff in there
for grassroots "how does society function" stuff, but that's generally
passed over by the standard campaign. Frank routinely chastised me for how
good the laser design sequence was, but that in bang-per-buck it took more
design time than it justified.
WTH is actually a good data point for using out-of-house resources. They
generally have something they are excited about doing, but it may not be
the thing you'd focus on otherwise. You want to find a way to use the
enthusiasm and extra set of hands and respond to the "can I? can I? can
I?" so you put it on the production schedule where it consumes time and
resources that maybe could have gone to something with a little more
clamor. The three TNE products that I think I have never heard any
comments about are Player Forms, Ref Screen, and WTH.
> on your comment about cargo shifting. I had fun creating a "seagoing"
> version of the petty. Yes it was a starship, and yes, it was constructed
> to
> look like a sea vessel. Including a Boom style crane that folded down to
> the deck for flight. I just considered it to be 2 tons displacement and 4
> tons mass. likewise an MHD turbine for thrust in the ocean for that
> 'authentic sonar sound'. 2 tns displacement and mass. handwavium for cost
> as it was truthfully window dressing for a first contact ship on an ocean
> world. In fact, when I was don it downright resembled an LST from WW2, in
> case anyone here has ever read 'the ninety and 9'.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Master Uxi
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It felt like fan material to me, which IIRC it was before GT.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015, 07:24 [Traveller_TNE] <
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its
>>> true that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all
>>> the
>>> licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has gone
>>> out
>>> the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller, besides
>>> all
>>> the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one Era to
>>> another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget don't
>>> hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please
>>> do,
>>> thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for
>>> us.
>>> I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing something,
>>> that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it.
>>> This
>>> way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can choose
>>> to
>>> keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of
>>> their
>>> choosing.
>>>
>>> I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons
>>> maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as
>>> one.
>>> When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a sticker
>>> reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo from one end
>>> to
>>> the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but FF&S-1
>>> doesn't
>>> have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo master tells us to
>>> shift
>>> a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't have to cut cards
>>> to
>>> see who gets to shot him in the backside.
>>>
>>> So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share
>>> anything
>>> you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's
>>> gold
>>> mine.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> for
> it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
> kids pay for it."
>
Short answer, either deeper in that message or in subsequent, "No." But I
wrapped it in more philosophical musing than that. While I may admire the
monosyllabic ethic, I myself find myself singularly incapable of
exercising it.
> With grav tech, do you really need a crane?
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 10:50, [Traveller_TNE]
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> My approach has always been that the "waste" volume in hangarage always
>> included gantry cranes, overhead trolleys, tracks, etc., and that would
>> apply to "cargo space" as well. But as you point out, that doesn't give
>> you much for color, how many tracks, how far apart, etc. The big thing
>> is
>> the differentiation between true cargo hold and the miscellaneous
>> leftover
>> space that often passes for "cargo" but really isn't set up to be that
>> useful. Definitely a notch above the crown molding, chair rail, and
>> wainscoting design sequence.
>>
>> Depending on where you're at, simply cutting the artificial gravity to
>> the
>> cargo area is how I assume most of that sort of thing is done.
>> Similarly,
>> grav compensation technology (that allows a ship to maneuver without
>> splatting all of the internal contents around) ought to allow you to
>> create Zero-G or reduced G even when grounded, but I don't recall the
>> rules going into that level of detail, including, "can I
>> cut/raise/reverse
>> G to this space but not the other?"
>>
>> We got at the similar dynamic of passenger loading/unloading through
>> the
>> interaction between hatch and seat size, but didn't go all the way with
>> cargo.
>>
>> I like the idea of the hand thruster, but again my assumption is that a
>> "vacc suit" is not simply a garment that holds your atmosphere but
>> leaves
>> you an inert, helpless lump, but has to include maneuvering aids in the
>> limbs or "backpack." Back to cargo, "grav grippers" or "grav
>> handtrucks"
>> or "grav forklifts" must exist, but much of that is standard equipment
>> either aboard the ship or at the starport, included along with a couple
>> threadbare cargo blankets, included in the port fees. There's always
>> room
>> for more fun detail. I've always been of two minds about equipment
>> books.
>> On the one hand, some people find the equivalent of number 2 pencils,
>> paper clips, tire jacks, etc., useful, especially for color, but a lot
>> of
>> that stuff ends up being ignored in favor of the sexier things, mostly
>> weapons.
>>
>> > Hal, I wouldn't worry too much about just what is cannon or not. Its
>> true
>> > that only something from GDW or FFE is true cannon, but with all the
>> > licensed by and authorized by and whatever by that true cannon has
>> gone
>> > out the window, at least for me. The thing I like about Traveller,
>> > besides all the fun we have is how easy it is to translate it from one
>> Era
>> > to another or from one book series to another If you find a nugget
>> don't
>> > hold back, enjoy. If you find something you want to share here please
>> do,
>> > thoughts and ideas from here have translated into some fine gaming for
>> us.
>> > I suggest that if you still feel uncomfortable about sharing
>> something,
>> > that you just make a note that you got this from wherever you got it.
>> > This way if say you share a ship design you do up, that someone can
>> choose
>> > to keep, change or replace the what's-a--ma-call-it with something of
>> > their choosing.
>> > I've done this myself many times. Hand thrusters for use in persons
>> > maneuvering in space, there are none in TNE, but MT equipment book as
>> > one. When you finish a ship design the hole left over usually gets a
>> > sticker reading Cargo Bay slapped on it, but how do you move cargo
>> from
>> > one end to the other. I thought about an overhead gantry crane, but
>> > FF&S-1 doesn't have one, FF&S-2 does though. Now when our cargo
>> master
>> > tells us to shift a 3-ton container from the back of the bay we don't
>> > have to cut cards to see who gets to shot him in the backside.
>> > So feel free to mine the nuggets you find and again please share
>> anything
>> > you want to, one persons thought idea or whatever could be another's
>> gold
>> > mine.
>> > Roger
>> >
>>
>>
>
My assumption always was that standard cargo containers (and most all non-standard ones) contained a grav module, thus anyone capable of pushing a button could then maneuver around the container like a huge floating balloon. As you would want the containers to be stackable, it would be a simple matter to lift them up and into place with a couple of people. My presumption too was that large cargo ships that would have a desire to stack the containers 3-4 high or so would have robots that did that sort of work.
Where it gets interesting is if the grav module fails. Assuming we don't have a few tons of stuff falling from 50 feet in the air, and the darn thing just wouldn't turn on, a tech (bot during the 3rd Imperium) would be able to troubleshoot it. Worst case, all ships would have portable, detachable grav modules that could be slapped on the sides of the container so that it can be moved.
Cranes would be a pre-grav module thing, though I could see where they might be useful in very large warehouses and in starports. As tech increases, they would become increasingly automated, such that at some point the warehouse would be a giant robot, with a number of smaller robots for reaching those places the giant robot can't. New Era RC would have them too, though probably with a couple of humans in the loops to make sure nothing goes "squirrely" (being inside an automated warehouse that has been taken over by Virus would be a very dangerous place...). Regency would likely be similar, though perhaps the humans in the loop aren't necessarily on site. Within the Terran setting, the degree of automation would differ depending upon the world you're on. Kagukans would be more likely to trust the machines, Prometheans less likely, Terrans somewhere in between.
I work under a similar theory, there would be grav pallets for small things, little grav units built into the pallet, plug the battery in and presto chango suddenly the 5,000kg pallet weighs 5kg. The problem with hand bombing stuff is despite the 5kg weight it still has 5k of mass so you'd have to be stupid careful you didn't crush BillyBob flat against the bulkhead.
Intermodal containers would definitely be the way to go and I imagine cargo holds would be designed with the, in mind. Cargo doors large enough to fit at least 2 of them in side by side so 6m wide cargo doors 3.2m tall.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> My assumption always was that standard cargo containers (and most all non-standard ones) contained a grav module, thus anyone capable of pushing a button could then maneuver around the container like a huge floating balloon. As you would want the containers to be stackable, it would be a simple matter to lift them up and into place with a couple of people. My presumption too was that large cargo ships that would have a desire to stack the containers 3-4 high or so would have robots that did that sort of work.
>
> Where it gets interesting is if the grav module fails. Assuming we don't have a few tons of stuff falling from 50 feet in the air, and the darn thing just wouldn't turn on, a tech (bot during the 3rd Imperium) would be able to troubleshoot it. Worst case, all ships would have portable, detachable grav modules that could be slapped on the sides of the container so that it can be moved.
>
> Cranes would be a pre-grav module thing, though I could see where they might be useful in very large warehouses and in starports. As tech increases, they would become increasingly automated, such that at some point the warehouse would be a giant robot, with a number of smaller robots for reaching those places the giant robot can't. New Era RC would have them too, though probably with a couple of humans in the loops to make sure nothing goes "squirrely" (being inside an automated warehouse that has been taken over by Virus would be a very dangerous place...). Regency would likely be simi lar, though perhaps the humans in the loop aren't necessarily on site. Within the Terran setting, the degree of automation would differ depending upon the world you're on. Kagukans would be more likely to trust the machines, Prometheans less likely, Terrans somewhere in between.
>
A travel lift crane system inside the ship is going to take up a metric fucktonne of space. 2m high x width and length of the cargo bay, even with a modes 10x15m cargo bay that's 300 cubic meters of cargo space you're wasting.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Derek Stanley [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> I work under a similar theory, there would be grav pallets for small things, little grav units built into the pallet, plug the battery in and presto chango suddenly the 5,000kg pallet weighs 5kg. The problem with hand bombing stuff is despite the 5kg weight it still has 5k of mass so you'd have to be stupid careful you didn't crush BillyBob flat against the bulkhead.
>
> Intermodal containers would definitely be the way to go and I imagine cargo holds would be designed with the, in mind. Cargo doors large enough to fit at least 2 of them in side by side so 6m wide cargo doors 3.2m tall.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> My assumption always was that standard cargo containers (and most all non-standard ones) contained a grav module, thus anyone capable of pushing a button could then maneuver around the container like a huge floating balloon. As you would want the containers to be stackable, it would be a simple matter to lift them up and into place with a couple of people. My presumption too was that large cargo ships that would have a desire to stack the containers 3-4 high or so would have robots that did that sort of work.
>>
>> Where it gets interesting is if the grav module fails. Assuming we don't have a few tons of stuff falling from 50 feet in the a ir, and the darn thing just wouldn't turn on, a tech (bot during the 3rd Imperium) would be able to troubleshoot it. Worst case, all ships would have portable, detachable grav modules that could be slapped on the sides of the container so that it can be moved.
>>
>> Cranes would be a pre-grav module thing, though I could see where they might be useful in very large warehouses and in starports. As tech increases, they would become increasingly automated, such that at some point the warehouse would be a giant robot, with a number of smaller robots for reaching those places the giant robot can't. New Era RC would have them too, though probably with a couple of humans in the loops to make sure nothing goes "squirrely" (being inside an automated warehouse that has been taken over by Virus would be a very dangerous place...). Regency would likely be simi lar, though perhaps the humans in the loop aren't necessarily on site. Within the Terran setting, the degree of automation would differ depending upon the world you're on. Kagukans would be more likely to trust the machines, Prometheans less likely, Terrans somewhere in between.
>
>
It would depend on TL and value of cargo. The CG module alone costs 20-30
KCr/displacement ton not including batteries or other power source, so not
a trivial cost. Putting it inside of a "pallet" or "collar" that fits
under/around the container would work as well, and you could store that
away and conserve your investment for low-cost cargoes.
> My assumption always was that standard cargo containers (and most all
> non-standard ones) contained a grav module, thus anyone capable of pushing
> a button could then maneuver around the container like a huge floating
> balloon. As you would want the containers to be stackable, it would be a
> simple matter to lift them up and into place with a couple of people. My
> presumption too was that large cargo ships that would have a desire to
> stack the containers 3-4 high or so would have robots that did that sort
> of work.
> Where it gets interesting is if the grav module fails. Assuming we don't
> have a few tons of stuff falling from 50 feet in the air, and the darn
> thing just wouldn't turn on, a tech (bot during the 3rd Imperium) would be
> able to troubleshoot it. Worst case, all ships would have portable,
> detachable grav modules that could be slapped on the sides of the
> container so that it can be moved.
>
> Cranes would be a pre-grav module thing, though I could see where they
> might be useful in very large warehouses and in starports. As tech
> increases, they would become increasingly automated, such that at some
> point the warehouse would be a giant robot, with a number of smaller
> robots for reaching those places the giant robot can't. New Era RC would
> have them too, though probably with a couple of humans in the loops to
> make sure nothing goes "squirrely" (being inside an automated warehouse
> that has been taken over by Virus would be a very dangerous place...).Â
> Regency would likely be similar, though perhaps the humans in the loop
> aren't necessarily on site. Within the Terran setting, the degree of
> automation would differ depending upon the world you're on. Kagukans
> would be more likely to trust the machines, Prometheans less likely,
> Terrans somewhere in between.
>
If you want an example of how bad it gets looks at how much of that vast
"multi-mission module" space inside the LCSs is wasted with the handling
system for a lousy little RHIB.
But Trav has always winked at that, allowing players to store holds 100%
full, no aisles for access or moving things in the back past things in the
front, etc. As things go, hardly the worst oversight to have taken place
in my lifetime.
> A travel lift crane system inside the ship is going to take up a metric
> fucktonne of space. 2m high x width and length of the cargo bay, even
> with a modes 10x15m cargo bay that's 300 cubic meters of cargo space
> you're wasting.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Derek Stanley
>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> I work under a similar theory, there would be grav pallets for small
>> things, little grav units built into the pallet, plug the battery in and
>> presto chango suddenly the 5,000kg pallet weighs 5kg. The problem with
>> hand bombing stuff is despite the 5kg weight it still has 5k of mass so
>> you'd have to be stupid careful you didn't crush BillyBob flat against
>> the bulkhead.
>>
>> Intermodal containers would definitely be the way to go and I imagine
>> cargo holds would be designed with the, in mind. Cargo doors large
>> enough to fit at least 2 of them in side by side so 6m wide cargo doors
>> 3.2m tall.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Harold Hale
>>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> My assumption always was that standard cargo containers (and most all
>>> non-standard ones) contained a grav module, thus anyone capable of
>>> pushing a button could then maneuver around the container like a huge
>>> floating balloon. As you would want the containers to be stackable, it
>>> would be a simple matter to lift them up and into place with a couple
>>> of people. My presumption too was that large cargo ships that would
>>> have a desire to stack the containers 3-4 high or so would have robots
>>> that did that sort of work.
>>>
>>> Where it gets interesting is if the grav module fails. Assuming we
>>> don't have a few tons of stuff falling from 50 feet in the a ir, and
>>> the darn thing just wouldn't turn on, a tech (bot during the 3rd
>>> Imperium) would be able to troubleshoot it. Worst case, all ships
>>> would have portable, detachable grav modules that could be slapped on
>>> the sides of the container so that it can be moved.
>>>
>>> Cranes would be a pre-grav module thing, though I could see where they
>>> might be useful in very large warehouses and in starports. As tech
>>> increases, they would become increasingly automated, such that at some
>>> point the warehouse would be a giant robot, with a number of smaller
>>> robots for reaching those places the giant robot can't. New Era RC
>>> would have them too, though probably with a couple of humans in the
>>> loops to make sure nothing goes "squirrely" (being inside an automated
>>> warehouse that has been taken over by Virus would be a very dangerous
>>> place...). Regency would likely be simi lar, though perhaps the humans
>>> in the loop aren't necessarily on site. Within the Terran setting, the
>>> degree of automation would differ depending upon the world you're on.
>>> Kagukans would be more likely to trust the machines, Prometheans less
>>> likely, Terrans somewhere in between.
>>
>>
>
LOL, just had the thought ... team lands on planet intending to do a quick turn around, but that cargo module with the items you're wanting to sell is in the back of the cargo hold and its full of stuff from your last couple of jumps ... you have to unload it all (time delay!)stack it somewhere approved by local authority (more time to get it there, oh and cost for temporary storage!)get the cargo you wanted out - finallysit down figure out what your going to sell at the next stop (time)buy whatever your getting (time)figure out what is where (time) (hope you don't have anything in partial loads in containers (evil grin)reload it in proper order to not have this hassle at the next port(oh you have to leave suddenly? but your cargo is still half in temp storage... no, you can't get clearance and leave some behind ... etc etc oh the joys you can have!
On Monday, March 2, 2015 1:22 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
If you want an example of how bad it gets looks at how much of that vast
"multi-mission module" space inside the LCSs is wasted with the handling
system for a lousy little RHIB.
But Trav has always winked at that, allowing players to store holds 100%
full, no aisles for access or moving things in the back past things in the
front, etc. As things go, hardly the worst oversight to have taken place
in my lifetime.
> A travel lift crane system inside the ship is going to take up a metric
> fucktonne of space. 2m high x width and length of the cargo bay, even
> with a modes 10x15m cargo bay that's 300 cubic meters of cargo space
> you're wasting.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Derek Stanley
>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> I work under a similar theory, there would be grav pallets for small
>> things, little grav units built into the pallet, plug the battery in and
>> presto chango suddenly the 5,000kg pallet weighs 5kg. The problem with
>> hand bombing stuff is despite the 5kg weight it still has 5k of mass so
>> you'd have to be stupid careful you didn't crush BillyBob flat against
>> the bulkhead.
>>
>> Intermodal containers would definitely be the way to go and I imagine
>> cargo holds would be designed with the, in mind. Cargo doors large
>> enough to fit at least 2 of them in side by side so 6m wide cargo doors
>> 3.2m tall.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Harold Hale
>>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> My assumption always was that standard cargo containers (and most all
>>> non-standard ones) contained a grav module, thus anyone capable of
>>> pushing a button could then maneuver around the container like a huge
>>> floating balloon. As you would want the containers to be stackable, it
>>> would be a simple matter to lift them up and into place with a couple
>>> of people. My presumption too was that large cargo ships that would
>>> have a desire to stack the containers 3-4 high or so would have robots
>>> that did that sort of work.
>>>
>>> Where it gets interesting is if the grav module fails. Assuming we
>>> don't have a few tons of stuff falling from 50 feet in the a ir, and
>>> the darn thing just wouldn't turn on, a tech (bot during the 3rd
>>> Imperium) would be able to troubleshoot it. Worst case, all ships
>>> would have portable, detachable grav modules that could be slapped on
>>> the sides of the container so that it can be moved.
>>>
>>> Cranes would be a pre-grav module thing, though I could see where they
>>> might be useful in very large warehouses and in starports. As tech
>>> increases, they would become increasingly automated, such that at some
>>> point the warehouse would be a giant robot, with a number of smaller
>>> robots for reaching those places the giant robot can't. New Era RC
>>> would have them too, though probably with a couple of humans in the
>>> loops to make sure nothing goes "squirrely" (being inside an automated
>>> warehouse that has been taken over by Virus would be a very dangerous
>>> place...). Regency would likely be simi lar, though perhaps the humans
>>> in the loop aren't necessarily on site. Within the Terran setting, the
>>> degree of automation would differ depending upon the world you're on.
>>> Kagukans would be more likely to trust the machines, Prometheans less
>>> likely, Terrans somewhere in between.
>>
>>
>
#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511 -- #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp #yiv0415728511hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp #yiv0415728511ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp .yiv0415728511ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp .yiv0415728511ad p {margin:0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mkp .yiv0415728511ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-sponsor #yiv0415728511ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-sponsor #yiv0415728511ygrp-lc #yiv0415728511hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-sponsor #yiv0415728511ygrp-lc .yiv0415728511ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511activity span .yiv0415728511underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 dd.yiv0415728511last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv0415728511 dd.yiv0415728511last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv0415728511 dd.yiv0415728511last p span.yiv0415728511yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511file-title a, #yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511file-title a:active, #yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511file-title a:hover, #yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511photo-title a, #yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511photo-title a:active, #yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511photo-title a:hover, #yiv0415728511 div.yiv0415728511photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 div#yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0415728511ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0415728511yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv0415728511 o {font-size:0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv0415728511 .yiv0415728511replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv0415728511 input, #yiv0415728511 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0415728511 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0415728511logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-msg p#yiv0415728511attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-reco #yiv0415728511reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-sponsor #yiv0415728511ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-sponsor #yiv0415728511ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-sponsor #yiv0415728511ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv0415728511 #yiv0415728511ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv0415728511
Good point. Separate piece would be better. This also gets us to cargo handling robots, though most free traders would need anything that expensive. Starports and warehouses would of course.
Also to Derek's point, a case could be made for there being a Cargo Handling skill (and if memory serves, there isn't one), since while grav modules might nullify weight, they do not nullify mass. There is more to managing a warehouse and loading a ship than just stacking oversized Lego blocks, even if cargo containers are standardized. Not exactly the "sexist" skill on the chart though PCs who don't know what they are doing could create serious havoc without it.
Yes, you are right about robots doing much/most/all of that beyond a
certain point. And they would presumably be built so that the CG envelope
was included within them.
And back in the day, you could say that the cargo-handling skill was
"Admin" when it was the catch-all skill for everything related to trade
before it got radiated into Broker and all that other stuff. The intertia
bit of "cargo handling" would probably be related to Zero-G, as they both
have to do with understanding inertia and micro-G, which is what we're
talking about. So maybe "Zero-G minus 1" or something.
> Good point. Separate piece would be better. This also gets us to cargo
> handling robots, though most free traders would need anything that
> expensive. Starports and warehouses would of course.
>
> Also to Derek's point, a case could be made for there being a Cargo
> Handling skill (and if memory serves, there isn't one), since while grav
> modules might nullify weight, they do not nullify mass. There is more to
> managing a warehouse and loading a ship than just stacking oversized Lego
> blocks, even if cargo containers are standardized. Not exactly the
> "sexist" skill on the chart though PCs who don't know what they are doing
> could create serious havoc without it.
>
It seems like it's usually two unrelated parts of the brain. Diving into
either side is fun and has a lot of detail, but they tend not to overlap,
although you can make them if you want. A merc campaign requires attention
to supply, CSS, money, "where did we leave that crucial part," and you can
scratch both itches in the same campaign.
> Thanks for reminding me why I always played current or former military
> characters or scouts and never wanted to run a ship as a PC. ;-)
>
>
so GLAD to be of help ... back on the idea of cargo handling career skills ... I'd argue that zero g w/ no minuses ... if I'm tracking along with the discussion right and the skill sets (been years since I had the books)reason being 1) if the cargo handler messes up he or she is squished and that's all she wrote so zero g would be a school taught factor or one quickly learned2) with CG being so much expected most of the cargo will handle like its in zero G or near zero G and so the cargo handler & perhaps the port-side stevedores will gain extensive experience with that skill ... boy's being boys and not a few of the girls various hi jinx will inevitably ensue where they get some experience with effects similar to, if not the same as some basic shooting skills that we'd expect from the military side.New merchant officer class - Cargo Masterlower classes Cargo Mate or Stevedore Mate or something 1st, 2nd, 3rdCargo JourneymanCargo-man Apprenticeor whatever
Cheers
On Monday, March 2, 2015 2:23 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
It seems like it's usually two unrelated parts of the brain. Diving into
either side is fun and has a lot of detail, but they tend not to overlap,
although you can make them if you want. A merc campaign requires attention
to supply, CSS, money, "where did we leave that crucial part," and you can
scratch both itches in the same campaign.
> Thanks for reminding me why I always played current or former military
> characters or scouts and never wanted to run a ship as a PC. ;-)
>
>
#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973 -- #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp #yiv3857435973hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp #yiv3857435973ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp .yiv3857435973ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp .yiv3857435973ad p {margin:0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mkp .yiv3857435973ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-sponsor #yiv3857435973ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-sponsor #yiv3857435973ygrp-lc #yiv3857435973hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-sponsor #yiv3857435973ygrp-lc .yiv3857435973ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973activity span .yiv3857435973underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 dd.yiv3857435973last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv3857435973 dd.yiv3857435973last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv3857435973 dd.yiv3857435973last p span.yiv3857435973yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973file-title a, #yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973file-title a:active, #yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973file-title a:hover, #yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973photo-title a, #yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973photo-title a:active, #yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973photo-title a:hover, #yiv3857435973 div.yiv3857435973photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 div#yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg #yiv3857435973ygrp-msg p a span.yiv3857435973yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv3857435973 o {font-size:0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv3857435973 .yiv3857435973replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv3857435973 input, #yiv3857435973 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv3857435973 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-mlmsg #yiv3857435973logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-msg p#yiv3857435973attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-reco #yiv3857435973reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-sponsor #yiv3857435973ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-sponsor #yiv3857435973ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-sponsor #yiv3857435973ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv3857435973 #yiv3857435973ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv3857435973
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 1:15 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, you are right about robots doing much/most/all of that beyond a
> certain point. And they would presumably be built so that the CG envelope
> was included within them.
>
> And back in the day, you could say that the cargo-handling skill was
> "Admin" when it was the catch-all skill for everything related to trade
> before it got radiated into Broker and all that other stuff. The intertia
> bit of "cargo handling" would probably be related to Zero-G, as they both
> have to do with understanding inertia and micro-G, which is what we're
> talking about. So maybe "Zero-G minus 1" or something.
>
Under CT I would have said it was covered by Steward, as that was the kinda
catch all skill for passenger ops and ship ops... TNE it was Called Service.
Steward, I had forgotten that one. When I wrote about Admin I was thinking
there had to have been a skill that was a little more hands-on, but I was
also thinking about the way the guy in charge of trading had to remember
where it all was and how to get it from there to here.
Apropos of not much, I don't think the loading cargo hold to 100% requires
any handwavium, it's just an abstraction. But just to keep the handwavium
muscle in practice, one could imagine that a "ton of cargo" is actually
some percentage less than 14 m3, allowing its fair share of the cargo
hold's requirement for "aisles between the crates" and "forklift access."
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 1:15 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are right about robots doing much/most/all of that beyond a
>> certain point. And they would presumably be built so that the CG
>> envelope
>> was included within them.
>>
>> And back in the day, you could say that the cargo-handling skill was
>> "Admin" when it was the catch-all skill for everything related to trade
>> before it got radiated into Broker and all that other stuff. The
>> intertia
>> bit of "cargo handling" would probably be related to Zero-G, as they
>> both
>> have to do with understanding inertia and micro-G, which is what we're
>> talking about. So maybe "Zero-G minus 1" or something.
>>
> Under CT I would have said it was covered by Steward, as that was the
> kinda
> catch all skill for passenger ops and ship ops... TNE it was Called
> Service.
>
> Almost needs it's own skill.... Kinda.
>
> --
> Evyn
>
This is all off the top of my head but I have 15 years of experience with intermodal containers.
Don't forget the dimensions of the grapple for picking up the can, that needs cable attachment points, can clocks, hydraulics for activating the can locks. Plus a little free space for error and maintenance. Granted the heft of the lifting frame is going to be less than what we have now but a ceiling gantry is a pretty massive piece of kit.
A standard intermodal currently is 53'L x 8'6"w x 9'6"h (16.15mx2.6mx2.9m) 109.17m3 or 7.8dt. The USDoT is currently piloting a 60' long can, the problem is at that length they take up 3 lanes of road to take a right hand turn without encroaching on the corner. At 60' long you're running a smidge shy of 10dt. Cans do come in 10', 20', 40' and 48' denominations too, but lets not get to excited by those just yet. They also come in 8'6" and 10'6" heights too...
What this means is the front to back dimensions of the gantry and the can grapple have to be capable of adapting to different sized containers, because lets face it no supercargo worth his salt is going to want to take on 2dt worth of cargo in a 10dt box.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 10:03 PM, Evyn MacDude [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Derek Stanley [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> A travel lift crane system inside the ship is going to take up a metric fucktonne of space. 2m high x width and length of the cargo bay, even with a modes 10x15m cargo bay that's 300 cubic meters of cargo space you're wasting.
>
> Try 1m tall or less for a strong back lifter capable of lifting a container.
>
> But you do bring up a point, the difference between geared and ungeared ships. Smaller ships that serve smaller ports tend to be geared (and thus more expensive) that ships that service larger ports.
>
> Realistically the standard traveller 200 dTon "Freetrader" is more akin to a semi truck than a container ship, thus is probably Geared to handle palleted goods and other Pallet sized boxes. Which as we all know means a couple of good Pallet-Jacks.
> --
> Evyn
>
My take on Traveller PC-scale starships is that they were always intended
to be breakbulk ships, not container ships. The Traveller equivalent of
Sealand, Lykes, and Maersk ships are all multi-Kton megacorp ships, and
you would see the containers from the outside because they would be loaded
and unloaded in orbit. (IMTU the ships that carried the containers up and
down looked like Thunderbird 2.) The containers that I saw in Traveller
starships are like those irregular pentagon cross-section containers they
use for air freight, much smaller than tractor-trailer/container ship
containers.
> This is all off the top of my head but I have 15 years of experience with
> intermodal containers.
>
> Don't forget the dimensions of the grapple for picking up the can, that
> needs cable attachment points, can clocks, hydraulics for activating the
> can locks. Plus a little free space for error and maintenance. Granted
> the heft of the lifting frame is going to be less than what we have now
> but a ceiling gantry is a pretty massive piece of kit.
>
> A standard intermodal currently is 53'L x 8'6"w x 9'6"h (16.15mx2.6mx2.9m)
> 109.17m3 or 7.8dt. The USDoT is currently piloting a 60' long can, the
> problem is at that length they take up 3 lanes of road to take a right
> hand turn without encroaching on the corner. At 60' long you're running a
> smidge shy of 10dt. Cans do come in 10', 20', 40' and 48' denominations
> too, but lets not get to excited by those just yet. They also come in
> 8'6" and 10'6" heights too...
>
> What this means is the front to back dimensions of the gantry and the can
> grapple have to be capable of adapting to different sized containers,
> because lets face it no supercargo worth his salt is going to want to take
> on 2dt worth of cargo in a 10dt box.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 10:03 PM, Evyn MacDude
>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Derek Stanley
>>> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>>
>>> A travel lift crane system inside the ship is going to take up a metric
>>> fucktonne of space. 2m high x width and length of the cargo bay, even
>>> with a modes 10x15m cargo bay that's 300 cubic meters of cargo space
>>> you're wasting.
>>
>> Try 1m tall or less for a strong back lifter capable of lifting a
>> container.
>>
>> But you do bring up a point, the difference between geared and ungeared
>> ships. Smaller ships that serve smaller ports tend to be geared (and
>> thus more expensive) that ships that service larger ports.
>>
>> Realistically the standard traveller 200 dTon "Freetrader" is more akin
>> to a semi truck than a container ship, thus is probably Geared to handle
>> palleted goods and other Pallet sized boxes. Which as we all know means
>> a couple of good Pallet-Jacks.
>> --
>> Evyn
>>
>
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Derek Stanley
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> This is all off the top of my head but I have 15 years of experience with
> intermodal containers.
>
> Don't forget the dimensions of the grapple for picking up the can, that
> needs cable attachment points, can clocks, hydraulics for activating the
> can locks. Plus a little free space for error and maintenance. Granted
> the heft of the lifting frame is going to be less than what we have now but
> a ceiling gantry is a pretty massive piece of kit.
>
That's ok, most of my experience is with Maritime shipping and Ships gear.
The strong backs in the foundry I once worked in where only about a meter
tall and they routinely dealt with 50 ton ingots. But they didn't have the
gear to deal with containers...
>
> A standard intermodal currently is 53'L x 8'6"w x 9'6"h
>
Which isn't being transshipped overseas as of a couple of years ago. 90% of
the trade is in 40 foot boxes.
> The USDoT is currently piloting a 60' long can, the problem is at that
> length they take up 3 lanes of road to take a right hand turn without
> encroaching on the corner. At 60' long you're running a smidge shy of
> 10dt. Cans do come in 10', 20', 40' and 48' denominations too, but lets
> not get to excited by those just yet. They also come in 8'6" and 10'6"
> heights too...
>
> What this means is the front to back dimensions of the gantry and the can
> grapple have to be capable of adapting to different sized containers,
> because lets face it no supercargo worth his salt is going to want to take
> on 2dt worth of cargo in a 10dt box.
>
But we arguing details here, If a ship needs gear to service its market it
will have it. What I am pointing out a lot of the PC scale ships probably
won't be doing that much in the way of container traffic. The Freetrader is
the interstellar equivalent of modern day trade Dhows in the Indian Ocean
Trade.
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:56 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> My take on Traveller PC-scale starships is that they were always intended
> to be breakbulk ships, not container ships. The Traveller equivalent of
> Sealand, Lykes, and Maersk ships are all multi-Kton megacorp ships, and
> you would see the containers from the outside because they would be loaded
> and unloaded in orbit. (IMTU the ships that carried the containers up and
> down looked like Thunderbird 2.) The containers that I saw in Traveller
> starships are like those irregular pentagon cross-section containers they
> use for air freight, much smaller than tractor-trailer/container ship
> containers.
>
Pretty much my take on it too. Funny how topics go in cycles, Containers
and suck have been wandering through the larger volume of Traveller Fandom
this winter.
I play a lot of miniatures games and well 15mm SF is my niche, with that I
found that a cargo box based on a index card (a Box 3x3x5) in 1/100th scale
(1.5 meters = 15mm) is real close to being a 50 dTon box. So the idea has
occurred the standard interstellar Cargo Container is 50 & 100 dTons.
(Think some of the cargo ships in BSG). Now add in the standard Bay
Mounts.... And you can see where I am going.
Roger. My take is congruent with Evyn's. A gantry crane for something you
can put into a wimpy little 747C or the lower deck of a passenger-carrying
7X7 is nothing compared to a gantry crane for a Maersk-scale container.
Nonetheless, my point on the colossal wasted space with the LCS RHIB
handling system still stands, stuff requires space.
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Derek Stanley
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> This is all off the top of my head but I have 15 years of experience
>> with
>> intermodal containers.
>>
>> Don't forget the dimensions of the grapple for picking up the can, that
>> needs cable attachment points, can clocks, hydraulics for activating the
>> can locks. Plus a little free space for error and maintenance. Granted
>> the heft of the lifting frame is going to be less than what we have now
>> but
>> a ceiling gantry is a pretty massive piece of kit.
>>
>
> That's ok, most of my experience is with Maritime shipping and Ships gear.
> The strong backs in the foundry I once worked in where only about a meter
> tall and they routinely dealt with 50 ton ingots. But they didn't have the
> gear to deal with containers...
>
>>
>> A standard intermodal currently is 53'L x 8'6"w x 9'6"h
>>
>
> Which isn't being transshipped overseas as of a couple of years ago. 90%
> of
> the trade is in 40 foot boxes.
>
>
>> The USDoT is currently piloting a 60' long can, the problem is at that
>> length they take up 3 lanes of road to take a right hand turn without
>> encroaching on the corner. At 60' long you're running a smidge shy of
>> 10dt. Cans do come in 10', 20', 40' and 48' denominations too, but lets
>> not get to excited by those just yet. They also come in 8'6" and 10'6"
>> heights too...
>>
>> What this means is the front to back dimensions of the gantry and the
>> can
>> grapple have to be capable of adapting to different sized containers,
>> because lets face it no supercargo worth his salt is going to want to
>> take
>> on 2dt worth of cargo in a 10dt box.
>>
>
> But we arguing details here, If a ship needs gear to service its market it
> will have it. What I am pointing out a lot of the PC scale ships probably
> won't be doing that much in the way of container traffic. The Freetrader
> is
> the interstellar equivalent of modern day trade Dhows in the Indian Ocean
> Trade.
>
>
> --
> Evyn
>
IMTU I also had two standard size containers, but I think they were more
like 500 and 1000. The smaller ones were semi-streamlined for carriage to
and from the surface. Think of the TB2 oval pods, but instead of being
tapered fore-aft they were constant-diameter ovals. The larger ones were
rectangular and were for longer hauls without interfacing. The container
ships looked 2001's Discovery. They were probably inspired by obsessing
over movies like 2001 and Silent Running, and actually came to me in a
dream about a big interstellar container ship named Brigham Young of all
things. I spent a couple days drawing the ship from my dream, and showed
it to a friend of mine who said he didn't like it because Brigham Young
was a Mormon. Everyone's a critic.
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:56 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> My take on Traveller PC-scale starships is that they were always
>> intended
>> to be breakbulk ships, not container ships. The Traveller equivalent of
>> Sealand, Lykes, and Maersk ships are all multi-Kton megacorp ships, and
>> you would see the containers from the outside because they would be
>> loaded
>> and unloaded in orbit. (IMTU the ships that carried the containers up
>> and
>> down looked like Thunderbird 2.) The containers that I saw in Traveller
>> starships are like those irregular pentagon cross-section containers
>> they
>> use for air freight, much smaller than tractor-trailer/container ship
>> containers.
>>
>
> Pretty much my take on it too. Funny how topics go in cycles, Containers
> and suck have been wandering through the larger volume of Traveller Fandom
> this winter.
>
> I play a lot of miniatures games and well 15mm SF is my niche, with that I
> found that a cargo box based on a index card (a Box 3x3x5) in 1/100th
> scale
> (1.5 meters = 15mm) is real close to being a 50 dTon box. So the idea has
> occurred the standard interstellar Cargo Container is 50 & 100 dTons.
> (Think some of the cargo ships in BSG). Now add in the standard Bay
> Mounts.... And you can see where I am going.
>
> --
> Evyn
>
FYI: Mormons are canon in Traveller, at least they get mentioned in DGP's "Solomani & Aslan".
But hey, religion in a sci-fi RPG, what a preposterous idea. ;-)
Funny how actual history becomes "canon" in Traveller by being referenced
there. It would be an interesting experiment to think of historical events
not yet mentioned in Traveller (therefore in danger of existentially
disappearing) and seeing if you could rewrite that bit of history. Have
some character say, "that39;s like Hannibal crossing the Rubicon," and then
maybe Julius Caesar ends up with an army of elephants. Arguably Traveller
is on an alternate timeline because of Yaskoydray harvesting the
Australopithecines, but equally arguably it's not, because how do we know
he didn't?
Re: Brigham Young, that was 9th grade, and I had not known he was a
Mormon, I just knew it from the name of the University, and the name is
phonetically very pleasing and powerful.
> FYI: Mormons are canon in Traveller, at least they get mentioned in DGP's
> "Solomani & Aslan".
> But hey, religion in a sci-fi RPG, what a preposterous idea. ;-)
>
>