Thread: RC Shipbuilding

Dave
I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and modules to the J drives and weapons. Wasn't there a few multimission ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?

Matt


---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :

I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls built
as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key force-multiplying
systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to publish
ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get full
TL 15 performance out of it.

But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a bunch
of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of Suffren
where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going to
provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters, the
problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier than
necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get SDBs
or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.

makes all sorts of sense actually and it seems would add to the overall economic effects not only of various worlds but shipping as well ... various large "bulk" carriers that would be either devoted to, or capable of being diverted to hauling large modules, sections of, or even entire hulls from build point systems to where they were assembled or, bringing those components to where the hulls were ... I can see it working either way.

On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 11:57 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:


  Dave
I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and modules to the J drives and weapons.  Wasn't there a few multimission ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?

Matt

---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :

I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls built
as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key force-multiplying
systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to publish
ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get full
TL 15 performance out of it.

But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a bunch
of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of Suffren
where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going to
provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters, the
problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier than
necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get SDBs
or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.

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Matt--

Yeah, that was the intent, and it sounds increasingly clear from your and
other recent responses that the intent was conveyed in the materials. I
know this would be in my working materials and would eventually have been
published, but I'm wondering if the published designs included discussion
or notes about, "higher tech XX is limited to YY performance by lower-tech
ZZ supporting systems." I've got all these materials, but I never have it
all unpacked at the same time, and I'm not in a position to create a
full-blown TNE archaeological site at the moment.

Dave

> Dave
> I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in
> particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and
> modules to the J drives and weapons. Wasn't there a few multimission
> ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?
>
> Matt
>
>
> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
>
> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
> were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls
> built
> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key
> force-multiplying
> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
> dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
> labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
> elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to
> publish
> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
> manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
> There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
> computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get
> full
> TL 15 performance out of it.
>
> But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a bunch
> of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of
> Suffren
> where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going to
> provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
> atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters,
> the
> problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier
> than
> necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get
> SDBs
> or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.
>
>
>
>
>

It's very similar to a set of messages I sent out here maybe a year ago,
about "Uplift," how it's a big interconnected jigsaw puzzle-web thing
where everything connects to everything else. Shipbuilding is the same
way, find out what world/location/resource A, B, C, D, and E each do best,
and connect them so that the work of the whole is greater than the work of
the parts working separately.

Something you allude to below is what gets moved to where. Some things,
like say TL-XX turret "cans" can be shipped to where the hulls are and
dropped in, but in some cases the lower-tech hulls need to be hauled to a
higher tech world for installation of the infrastructure hull systems that
allow the higher-tech stuff to work.

> makes all sorts of sense actually and it seems would add to the overall
> economic effects not only of various worlds but shipping as well ...
> various large "bulk" carriers that would be either devoted to, or capable
> of being diverted to hauling large modules, sections of, or even entire
> hulls from build point systems to where they were assembled or, bringing
> those components to where the hulls were ... I can see it working either
> way.
>
> On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 11:57 AM, "
> [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>   Dave
> I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in
> particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and
> modules to the J drives and weapons.  Wasn't there a few multimission
> ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?
>
> Matt
>
>
> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
>
> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
> were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls built
> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key force-multiplying
> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
> dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
> labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
> elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to publish
> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
> manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
> There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
> computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get full
> TL 15 performance out of it.
>
> But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a bunch
> of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of Suffren
> where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going to
> provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
> atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters, the
> problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier than
> necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get SDBs
> or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.
>
>
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Matt (et al.)--

I spent a few minutes digging around last night and found FF&S (but not
any RC books) to confirm my recollections. FF&S is clear that you can't
install computers from a different TL or sensors or MFDs from a higher TL
than the controls. I am sympathetic to the argument that dynamic linked
controls from TL 10, 11, or 12 are interchangeable (or holographic linked
from 13, 14, 15, 16), but I followed the strict interpretation that hulls
would be shipped without installed controls (see below) to the highest TL
world where they would be installed. All controls regardless of TL have
identical mass and volume, so setting aside the space is straight-forward.
I pictured the hulls being shipped with empty cable runs (or whatever, the
stuff is probably "fly-by-wireless") and decks and equipment shimmed into
place or temporarily bolted or tack-welded to allow controls installation
at the destination. Empty "cable conduits" could have leaders in them to
enable pulling cables through at the destination. Or it could all be
little fly-by-wireless relay boxes that you just stick to the walls, or
it's a conductive jello solution that you pump through the control pipes
and then all the little nano-chips in the solution automatically align
when you say the magic words. It doesn't matter, but in a 20th century
game it's most common for players and artists to imagine tech the way
they're used to seeing it.

Similar-ish thing with HEPlaR maneuver drives. It's not just a big bell at
the back, but has internal ducting to multiple points for roll-pitch-yaw
thrusters. Since these are simply based on the power devoted to thrust
they can be installed at TL 10+ and a fusion plant of any TL can be
dropped in (subject to controls TL), but the HEPlaR can only deliver the
thrust it was built for.

Armor, on the other hand (with an exception for Coherent SD), I saw no
reason to say that TL 14 bonded SD is different from TL 15, or TL 12
Superdense from TL 13. You could have a PC who's a connoisseur and could
see that from the herringbone alignment of the atoms that slab was
obviously built with TL XX manufacturing techniques, but that's color.

> Matt--
>
> Yeah, that was the intent, and it sounds increasingly clear from your and
> other recent responses that the intent was conveyed in the materials. I
> know this would be in my working materials and would eventually have been
> published, but I'm wondering if the published designs included discussion
> or notes about, "higher tech XX is limited to YY performance by lower-tech
> ZZ supporting systems." I've got all these materials, but I never have it
> all unpacked at the same time, and I'm not in a position to create a
> full-blown TNE archaeological site at the moment.
>
> Dave
>
>> Dave
>> I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in
>> particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and
>> modules to the J drives and weapons. Wasn't there a few multimission
>> ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
>>
>> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
>> were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls
>> built
>> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key
>> force-multiplying
>> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
>> dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
>> labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
>> elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to
>> publish
>> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
>> manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
>> There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
>> computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get
>> full
>> TL 15 performance out of it.
>>
>> But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a
>> bunch
>> of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of
>> Suffren
>> where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going
>> to
>> provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
>> atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters,
>> the
>> problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier
>> than
>> necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get
>> SDBs
>> or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

I agree no need to see increases every tech level. Refinement can manifest
in production, installation, and perhaps most elusive, optimal
situational employment.

I could see that justifying price reduction.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015, 15:11 [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> Matt (et al.)--
>
> I spent a few minutes digging around last night and found FF&S (but not
> any RC books) to confirm my recollections. FF&S is clear that you can't
> install computers from a different TL or sensors or MFDs from a higher TL
> than the controls. I am sympathetic to the argument that dynamic linked
> controls from TL 10, 11, or 12 are interchangeable (or holographic linked
> from 13, 14, 15, 16), but I followed the strict interpretation that hulls
> would be shipped without installed controls (see below) to the highest TL
> world where they would be installed. All controls regardless of TL have
> identical mass and volume, so setting aside the space is straight-forward.
> I pictured the hulls being shipped with empty cable runs (or whatever, the
> stuff is probably "fly-by-wireless") and decks and equipment shimmed into
> place or temporarily bolted or tack-welded to allow controls installation
> at the destination. Empty "cable conduits" could have leaders in them to
> enable pulling cables through at the destination. Or it could all be
> little fly-by-wireless relay boxes that you just stick to the walls, or
> it's a conductive jello solution that you pump through the control pipes
> and then all the little nano-chips in the solution automatically align
> when you say the magic words. It doesn't matter, but in a 20th century
> game it's most common for players and artists to imagine tech the way
> they're used to seeing it.
>
> Similar-ish thing with HEPlaR maneuver drives. It's not just a big bell at
> the back, but has internal ducting to multiple points for roll-pitch-yaw
> thrusters. Since these are simply based on the power devoted to thrust
> they can be installed at TL 10+ and a fusion plant of any TL can be
> dropped in (subject to controls TL), but the HEPlaR can only deliver the
> thrust it was built for.
>
> Armor, on the other hand (with an exception for Coherent SD), I saw no
> reason to say that TL 14 bonded SD is different from TL 15, or TL 12
> Superdense from TL 13. You could have a PC who's a connoisseur and could
> see that from the herringbone alignment of the atoms that slab was
> obviously built with TL XX manufacturing techniques, but that's color.
>
>
>
> > Matt--
> >
> > Yeah, that was the intent, and it sounds increasingly clear from your and
> > other recent responses that the intent was conveyed in the materials. I
> > know this would be in my working materials and would eventually have been
> > published, but I'm wondering if the published designs included discussion
> > or notes about, "higher tech XX is limited to YY performance by
> lower-tech
> > ZZ supporting systems." I've got all these materials, but I never have it
> > all unpacked at the same time, and I'm not in a position to create a
> > full-blown TNE archaeological site at the moment.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> >> Dave
> >> I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in
> >> particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and
>
> >> modules to the J drives and weapons. Wasn't there a few multimission
>
>
> >> ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >>
> >> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
> >>
> >> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
> >> were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls
> >> built
> >> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key
> >> force-multiplying
> >> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
> >> dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
> >> labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
> >> elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to
> >> publish
> >> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
> >> manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
> >> There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
> >> computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get
> >> full
> >> TL 15 performance out of it.
> >>
> >> But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a
> >> bunch
> >> of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of
> >> Suffren
> >> where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going
> >> to
> >> provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
> >> atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters,
> >> the
> >> problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier
> >> than
> >> necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get
> >> SDBs
> >> or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

I always felt certain components of higher tech could be dropped into a lower tech ship, specifically weapons. They're basically a prefab pod you drop in and take out. Now a TL15 laser would still hit like a TL15 laser but it would suffer from Ship TL hit modifiers.

A TL15 J-Drive would require TL15 computers to pull a J6. It might only have a TL12 FPP or a TL12 Heplar. If it's only got a TL12 Computer it can only pull J3...

This is kind of the tuner theory of starships, an old beater on the outside but completely loaded on the inside. I've never had issues with mixing and matching tech provide you keep in mind that the tech also acts as a limiting device.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 19, 2015, at 3:11 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> Matt (et al.)--
>
> I spent a few minutes digging around last night and found FF&S (but not
> any RC books) to confirm my recollections. FF&S is clear that you can't
> install computers from a different TL or sensors or MFDs from a higher TL
> than the controls. I am sympathetic to the argument that dynamic linked
> controls from TL 10, 11, or 12 are interchangeable (or holographic linked
> from 13, 14, 15, 16), but I followed the strict interpretation that hulls
> would be shipped without installed controls (see below) to the highest TL
> world where they would be installed. All controls regardless of TL have
> identical mass and volume, so setting aside the space is straight-forward.
> I pictured the hulls being shipped with empty cable runs (or whatever, the
> stuff is probably "fly-by-wireless") and decks and equipment shimmed into
> place or temporarily bolted or tack-welded to allow controls installation
> at the destination. Empty "cable conduits" could have leaders in them to
> enable pulling cables through at the destination. Or it could all be
> little fly-by-wireless relay boxes that you just stick to the walls, or
> it's a conductive jello solution that you pump through the control pipes
> and then all the little nano-chips in the solution automatically align
> when you say the magic words. It doesn't matter, but in a 20th century
> game it's most common for players and artists to imagine tech the way
> they're used to seeing it.
>
> Similar-ish thing with HEPlaR maneuver drives. It's not just a big bell at
> the back, but has internal ducting to multiple points for roll-pitch-yaw
> thrusters. Since these are simply based on the power devoted to thrust
> they can be installed at TL 10+ and a fusion plant of any TL can be
> dropped in (subject to controls TL), but the HEPlaR can only deliver the
> thrust it was built for.
>
> Armor, on the other hand (with an exception for Coherent SD), I saw no
> reason to say that TL 14 bonded SD is different from TL 15, or TL 12
> Superdense from TL 13. You could have a PC who's a connoisseur and could
> see that from the herringbone alignment of the atoms that slab was
> obviously built with TL XX manufacturing techniques, but that's color.
>
> > Matt--
> >
> > Yeah, that was the intent, and it sounds increasingly clear from your and
> > other recent responses that the intent was conveyed in the materials. I
> > know this would be in my working materials and would eventually have been
> > published, but I'm wondering if the published designs included discussion
> > or notes about, "higher tech XX is limited to YY performance by lower-tech
> > ZZ supporting systems." I've got all these materials, but I never have it
> > all unpacked at the same time, and I'm not in a position to create a
> > full-blown TNE archaeological site at the moment.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> Dave
> >> I got the impression from the published material that the Clippers in
> >> particular were built at varying tech levels from hull structure and
> >> modules to the J drives and weapons. Wasn't there a few multimission
> >> ships that were built with drop in, lower tech modules as well?
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >>
> >> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
> >>
> >> I don't know if this was clear in the published materials, but RC ships
> >> were definitely intended to be built the way you describe, big hulls
> >> built
> >> as economically and at the lowest TLs possible, with key
> >> force-multiplying
> >> systems (jump drives, power plants, computers, sensors, weapons, etc.)
> >> dropped in from higher TLs so the higher-tech worlds could focus their
> >> labor force on manufacturing key technologies that would be used
> >> elsewhere. If that wasn't clear it was probably because we had to
> >> publish
> >> ships that followed the "classic" approach of an entire ship being
> >> manufactured at a single tech level as examples of the normal approach.
> >> There were also limitations on plug-and-play, as you can't drop a TL 15
> >> computer onto a TL 10 network with a TL 12 databus and expect to get
> >> full
> >> TL 15 performance out of it.
> >>
> >> But the idea of maximizing production efficiency was embedded in a
> >> bunch
> >> of places, the one I'm thinking of right now is in the Covenant of
> >> Suffren
> >> where the waterworld had a big submarine hull industry that was going
> >> to
> >> provide a lot of help in producing kludgy spaceships. Going down an
> >> atmosphere is a lot easier than going up one atmosphere per 10 meters,
> >> the
> >> problem would be that off-the-shelf submarine hulls would be heavier
> >> than
> >> necessary, but they should have good G performance, and you could get
> >> SDBs
> >> or starships that look like Star Trek's SS Botany Bay.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Dave,
I would think that higher tech sensors and fire control could be used to at least aim direct fire weapons like lasers. I would also think that a TL-9 missile turret could fire TL-15 missiles but certainly not provide guidance for them. You would need something that was fire and forget or externally guided to make that work.

I can see why designers might chose not to model such a bewildering array of different TL in a set of rules at things would rapidly get unwieldy.

And as to you earlier remark; I would love to conduct a forensic dig in a TNE archeological site of drafts, documents and notes! :)

Matt


---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :

It's very similar to a set of messages I sent out here maybe a year ago,
about "Uplift," how it's a big interconnected jigsaw puzzle-web thing
where everything connects to everything else. Shipbuilding is the same
way, find out what world/location/resource A, B, C, D, and E each do best,
and connect them so that the work of the whole is greater than the work of
the parts working separately.

Something you allude to below is what gets moved to where. Some things,
like say TL-XX turret "cans" can be shipped to where the hulls are and
dropped in, but in some cases the lower-tech hulls need to be hauled to a
higher tech world for installation of the infrastructure hull systems that
allow the higher-tech stuff to work.

Derek,
One issue with plug and play across different TL is that the data protocols and such just might not mesh well even if designed to work together. Think about the obsolescence problems we have with hardware and software across just one TL (7 to 8 or even within 8).

I would think that clever design of components built to be compatible could accommodate different TL for sure.

Still, build the hulls at the B star port and add the J drives at the A star port as the RC was starting to do makes good sense in a limited tech base.

Matt

---In , <nightrim@...> wrote :

I always felt certain components of higher tech could be dropped into a lower tech ship, specifically weapons. They're basically a prefab pod you drop in and take out. Now a TL15 laser would still hit like a TL15 laser but it would suffer from Ship TL hit modifiers.


A TL15 J-Drive would require TL15 computers to pull a J6. It might only have a TL12 FPP or a TL12 Heplar. If it's only got a TL12 Computer it can only pull J3...


This is kind of the tuner theory of starships, an old beater on the outside but completely loaded on the inside. I've never had issues with mixing and matching tech provide you keep in mind that the tech also acts as a limiting device.

Derek Stanley Sent from my iPad

I'd argue for the higher tech stuff to be the brains of the ship and its systems, but lower tech stuff beyond that.
So the central computer (or primary computer nodes, if a distributed system) would be TL 15.  The data buses that transfer data from the computer to the equipment might be TL 14 (and induce a TL 14 limit on data transfer rates).  The Jump drive might be TL 13, the fuel tankage might be TL 12, while the basic hull itself might be TL 11.  A pure TL 15 ship would have much better performance, but requires a pure TL 15 construction base, and means you won't have as many ships.  By having lower-tech planets build the hulls, you get some of the load transferred to their industry, and can build more TL 15 computers.

For weapons, the fire control would be TL 15, the sensors might be TL 14, the laser itself might be TL 13, the cooling system and power feeds TL 12 (and needing a lot of it), the turret mount TL 11, and the armor TL 10.  The laser will have a lower firing rate, lower power efficiency, and higher mass compared to a pure TL 15 setup, but you can build more of them.

You could even argue for a case where the missile guidance system is better than the ship, but without the ship's support doesn't get its full benefit.  So if a ship has TL 14 smart missiles, but the ship only has a TL 10 fire control system (due to battle damage, poor repairs, or salvage), the missiles operate as if TL 12 smart missiles (since they have to do more of the work themselves instead of receiving it from the ship's computers).
But this would require setting up a chain of components, to identify which items need to be higher TL, and which ones don't.  Items at the start of the list need to be the highest TL, and impose a limit on the lower tech stuff capabilities.

Todd Kes

From: " [Traveller_TNE]" <>

Derek,
One issue with plug and play across different TL is that the data protocols and such just might not mesh well even if designed to work together.  Think about the obsolescence problems we have with hardware and software across just one TL (7 to 8 or even within 8).

I would think that clever design of components built to be compatible could accommodate different TL for sure.

Still, build the hulls at the B star port and add the J drives at the A star port as the RC was starting to do makes good sense in a limited tech base.

Matt

---In , <nightrim@...> wrote :

I always felt certain components of higher tech could be dropped into a lower tech ship, specifically weapons.  They're basically a prefab pod you drop in and take out.  Now a TL15 laser would still hit like a TL15 laser but it would suffer from Ship TL hit modifiers.
A TL15 J-Drive would require TL15 computers to pull a J6.  It might only have a TL12 FPP or a TL12 Heplar.  If it's only got a TL12 Computer it can only pull J3...
This is kind of the tuner theory of starships, an old beater on the outside but completely loaded on the inside.  I've never had issues with mixing and matching tech provide you keep in mind that the tech also acts as a limiting device.

Derek StanleySent from my iPad

The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks for much needed military craft.
My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its class-A rating.
For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow ship to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power connection.
My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of those IMTU rules.
Roger

The third computer is so the primary has two backups.

-----Original Message-----
From: " [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: ‎2/‎21/‎2015 11:28 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding

The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks for much needed military craft.
My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its class-A rating.
For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow ship to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power connection.
My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of those IMTU rules.
Roger

Matt--

You're going a couple different directions on TL matching, maybe, so I'll
address both.

First, different TL weapons on a base TL ship or system shouldn't be a
problem. We said you couldn't run higher TL sensors or MFDs (or computers)
on lower TL controls, but by no excluding them that means you can drop in
all kinds of different TL turret "cans," including missiles.

The other, which was more implied, is higher tech sensors and MFDs. The
issue is not whether they can control weapons, but whether they can talk
at all within a lower TL control system (the rules say "no"). The analogy
is trying to send digital signal over an analog system, or send
fiber-optic signal over copper wires, etc. And then when you think of work
stations, they wouldn't have displays to show information that a higher TL
system uses. (There's a whole 'nother discussion here about Traveller
contemporaneous TLs vs. human history chronological TLs so that you could
built TL 10 displays with displays that show data that's not used at TL
10, but would accept it if you hooked up a TL 13 system to it, but that's
a discussion for another day.) So a sensor or MFD or computer can't talk
over lower TL controls, but an installed control-sensors-MFD-computer
suite can control weapons of all kinds of TLs.

> Dave,
> I would think that higher tech sensors and fire control could be used to
> at least aim direct fire weapons like lasers. I would also think that a
> TL-9 missile turret could fire TL-15 missiles but certainly not provide
> guidance for them. You would need something that was fire and forget or
> externally guided to make that work.
>
> I can see why designers might chose not to model such a bewildering array
> of different TL in a set of rules at things would rapidly get unwieldy.
>
> And as to you earlier remark; I would love to conduct a forensic dig in a
> TNE archeological site of drafts, documents and notes! :)
>
> Matt
>
>
> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
>
> It's very similar to a set of messages I sent out here maybe a year ago,
> about "Uplift," how it's a big interconnected jigsaw puzzle-web thing
> where everything connects to everything else. Shipbuilding is the same
> way, find out what world/location/resource A, B, C, D, and E each do
> best,
> and connect them so that the work of the whole is greater than the work
> of
> the parts working separately.
>
> Something you allude to below is what gets moved to where. Some things,
> like say TL-XX turret "cans" can be shipped to where the hulls are and
> dropped in, but in some cases the lower-tech hulls need to be hauled to
> a
> higher tech world for installation of the infrastructure hull systems
> that
> allow the higher-tech stuff to work.
>
>
>
>

In reality that's a valid point, but for Traveller it was too hard and not
fun. Traveller construction costs already utterly fail to encompass
Augustine's Law, so dropping Windows 32-bit and 64-bit incompatability
isn't that much of a stretch. I think that a lot of Augustine's Law is
social-cultural, so might go away in a multi-dimensional free market, but
if a referee wants to say that the TL 12 turret is Android and your TL 12
control system is iOS so they don't work, that's up to him. His players
might demand to go back to D&D.

> Derek,
> One issue with plug and play across different TL is that the data
> protocols and such just might not mesh well even if designed to work
> together. Think about the obsolescence problems we have with hardware and
> software across just one TL (7 to 8 or even within 8).
>
> I would think that clever design of components built to be compatible
> could accommodate different TL for sure.
>
> Still, build the hulls at the B star port and add the J drives at the A
> star port as the RC was starting to do makes good sense in a limited tech
> base.
>
> Matt
>
> ---In , <nightrim@...> wrote :
>
> I always felt certain components of higher tech could be dropped into a
> lower tech ship, specifically weapons. They're basically a prefab pod
> you drop in and take out. Now a TL15 laser would still hit like a TL15
> laser but it would suffer from Ship TL hit modifiers.
>
>
> A TL15 J-Drive would require TL15 computers to pull a J6. It might only
> have a TL12 FPP or a TL12 Heplar. If it's only got a TL12 Computer it
> can only pull J3...
>
>
> This is kind of the tuner theory of starships, an old beater on the
> outside but completely loaded on the inside. I've never had issues with
> mixing and matching tech provide you keep in mind that the tech also acts
> as a limiting device.
>
> Derek Stanley Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Agree, or to say it another way, put the TLs wherever the best/most
important DMs apply. Plus efficient power generation, always a priority.

Your third para touches on some things I was working on, what if you build
a system not quite as big as it's supposed to be? (harder tasks, harder
maintenance) What if you use a system that has received battle-damage
repairs but not a full-up shipyard renewal? How hard is it to switch power
between systems if your PP isn't big enough to run them all at the same
time? In the later designs you'll see where I was handling that a little
at a time, FPs that take extra long to refine the full load, systems that
can't be powered simultaneously but logically never would be, so you
didn't have to worry about what tasks to switch power between phasers and
screens and transporters and life support. Basically if I could explain it
in simple terms I did it in the ship notes, if it would have required
expanded rules discussion I didn't design the ship that way.

> I'd argue for the higher tech stuff to be the brains of the ship and its
> systems, but lower tech stuff beyond that.
> So the central computer (or primary computer nodes, if a distributed
> system) would be TL 15.  The data buses that transfer data from the
> computer to the equipment might be TL 14 (and induce a TL 14 limit on data
> transfer rates).  The Jump drive might be TL 13, the fuel tankage might
> be TL 12, while the basic hull itself might be TL 11.  A pure TL 15 ship
> would have much better performance, but requires a pure TL 15 construction
> base, and means you won't have as many ships.  By having lower-tech
> planets build the hulls, you get some of the load transferred to their
> industry, and can build more TL 15 computers.
>
> For weapons, the fire control would be TL 15, the sensors might be TL 14,
> the laser itself might be TL 13, the cooling system and power feeds TL 12
> (and needing a lot of it), the turret mount TL 11, and the armor TL 10. 
> The laser will have a lower firing rate, lower power efficiency, and
> higher mass compared to a pure TL 15 setup, but you can build more of
> them.
>
> You could even argue for a case where the missile guidance system is
> better than the ship, but without the ship's support doesn't get its full
> benefit.  So if a ship has TL 14 smart missiles, but the ship only has a
> TL 10 fire control system (due to battle damage, poor repairs, or
> salvage), the missiles operate as if TL 12 smart missiles (since they have
> to do more of the work themselves instead of receiving it from the ship's
> computers).
> But this would require setting up a chain of components, to identify which
> items need to be higher TL, and which ones don't.  Items at the start of
> the list need to be the highest TL, and impose a limit on the lower tech
> stuff capabilities.
>
> Todd Kes
>
> From: " [Traveller_TNE]"
> <>
>
> Derek,
> One issue with plug and play across different TL is that the data
> protocols and such just might not mesh well even if designed to work
> together.  Think about the obsolescence problems we have with hardware
> and software across just one TL (7 to 8 or even within 8).
>
> I would think that clever design of components built to be compatible
> could accommodate different TL for sure.
>
> Still, build the hulls at the B star port and add the J drives at the A
> star port as the RC was starting to do makes good sense in a limited tech
> base.
>
> Matt
>
> ---In , <nightrim@...> wrote :
>
> I always felt certain components of higher tech could be dropped into a
> lower tech ship, specifically weapons.  They're basically a prefab pod
> you drop in and take out.  Now a TL15 laser would still hit like a TL15
> laser but it would suffer from Ship TL hit modifiers.
> A TL15 J-Drive would require TL15 computers to pull a J6.  It might only
> have a TL12 FPP or a TL12 Heplar.  If it's only got a TL12 Computer it
> can only pull J3...
> This is kind of the tuner theory of starships, an old beater on the
> outside but completely loaded on the inside.  I've never had issues with
> mixing and matching tech provide you keep in mind that the tech also acts
> as a limiting device.
>
> Derek StanleySent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Roger--

I agree with your premise about bringing the drive to the hull, but that's
not the way I went, because it would violate the spirit of starport
classifications, and it was not our place to undermine too many settled
Traveller conventions (pick your favorite convention that we DID
violate--focal arrays vs. Space Battleship Yamato style WW2 turrets is my
favorite distinction without a difference). The RC and the Covenant of
Suffren raised this issue all the time, but I didn't want to get into,
"it's a type A starport except when it's not, it's a type B starport
except when it's a type A." Logically the difference between Type A and B
is not like the difference between Lead and Gold, but more like the
difference between Uranium 238 and Thorium 234. For all I know, the sacred
UWP difference between A and B is like the number of stars in a Michelin
guide: some numbskull at TAS decides "it's a B" and it is because he says
so. That's another piece of the expanded rules I've talked about, "how do
you develop a B Starport into an A Starport," and I wasn't going to trash
the distinction, but put out rules to visualize what the distinction
actually was and how you could manipulate and evolve it. Whether we
touched on any of that in World Tamer's I don't recall, but think we
didn't go that far.

So bottom line is that I was deliberately saying that if you were going to
install a Jump Drive you had to do it at an A starport, thereby working
within the rules until there was time to expand them.

> The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that
> if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In
> addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks
> for much needed military craft.
> My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near
> completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of
> technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec
> workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back
> into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation
> work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being
> TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the
> components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled
> up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once
> this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its
> class-A rating.
> For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a
> multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like
> sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow ship
> to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would
> be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power
> connection.
> My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is
> mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed
> for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or
> a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the
> required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump
> distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of
> those IMTU rules.
> Roger
>

I meant to say something about the computer thing. I like the idea that
someone (Derek?) brought up about the jump range of a higher TL drive
being limited by the TL of the computer, but I don't think Traveller ever
said that jump distance is a function of the computer TL, but a function
of the TL sophistication of the drive. Just because a computer and a J
drive are built at the same TL doesn't mean that the parameters of one
limit the other, but if you WANTED that to be the answer you could
hand-wave an explanation. Do Federation starships have even and odd
numbers of warp nacelles, or only even-numbered? Depends on who you asked.
Eventually we would have gotten around to making a ruling about that, but
I don't believe we found it necessary before nothing was necessary.

The other thing is that the whole "what is a computer?" issue in Traveller
had been snakebit since 1977. We continuously elected to remain within
that convention for the sake of some kind of continuity, but it never
really satisfied anyone.

> The third computer is so the primary has two backups.
>
> -----Original Message-----
From: " [Traveller_TNE]"
Sent: ‎2/‎21/‎2015 11:28 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding
>
>
> The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that
> if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In
> addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks
> for much needed military craft.
> My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near
> completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of
> technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec
> workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back
> into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation
> work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being
> TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the
> components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled up
> and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once this
> was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its class-A
> rating.
> For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a
> multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like
> sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow ship
> to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would
> be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power
> connection.
> My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is
> mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed
> for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or
> a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the
> required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump distance
> because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of those IMTU
> rules.
> Roger
>

Isn't that sort of what is going on now with naval shipbuilding? For
example the Mistrals the French are selling to the Russians. They are
building most of it with some of the high tech stuff(propulsion and stuff)
but not some(electronics and weapons) the Russians have to fit their less
capable and cruder systems.I would think you could always swap systems in
as long as they closly fit except if the tech was way out of line

Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)

When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
just drank what?"

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 2:59 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> Roger--
>
> I agree with your premise about bringing the drive to the hull, but that's
> not the way I went, because it would violate the spirit of starport
> classifications, and it was not our place to undermine too many settled
> Traveller conventions (pick your favorite convention that we DID
> violate--focal arrays vs. Space Battleship Yamato style WW2 turrets is my
> favorite distinction without a difference). The RC and the Covenant of
> Suffren raised this issue all the time, but I didn't want to get into,
> "it's a type A starport except when it's not, it's a type B starport
> except when it's a type A." Logically the difference between Type A and B
> is not like the difference between Lead and Gold, but more like the
> difference between Uranium 238 and Thorium 234. For all I know, the sacred
> UWP difference between A and B is like the number of stars in a Michelin
> guide: some numbskull at TAS decides "it's a B" and it is because he says
> so. That's another piece of the expanded rules I've talked about, "how do
> you develop a B Starport into an A Starport," and I wasn't going to trash
> the distinction, but put out rules to visualize what the distinction
> actually was and how you could manipulate and evolve it. Whether we
> touched on any of that in World Tamer's I don't recall, but think we
> didn't go that far.
>
> So bottom line is that I was deliberately saying that if you were going to
> install a Jump Drive you had to do it at an A starport, thereby working
> within the rules until there was time to expand them.
>
> > The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that
> > if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In
> > addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks
> > for much needed military craft.
> > My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near
> > completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of
> > technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec
> > workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back
> > into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation
> > work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being
> > TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the
> > components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled
> > up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once
> > this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its
> > class-A rating.
> > For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a
> > multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like
> > sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow ship
> > to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would
> > be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power
> > connection.
> > My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is
> > mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed
> > for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or
> > a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the
> > required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump
> > distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of
> > those IMTU rules.
> > Roger
> >
>
>
>

and consider that an A class star port is not necessarily the physical structure on the planet, or in orbit but a whole range of support facilities for building and testing the materials etc.  I worked at a 500kw broadcast radio system - VLF range the coils on that thing ... well the difference from a hotwheels toy car and the real thing.  So it makes sense that the A class port would have capabilities that lower class ports don't.  Some tests may require a whole solar system to be able to do them properly ... even assembly line built ships, components etc can have failures ,,, sometimes spectacular ones ... how much more for something that is half custom built like a j drive?

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 1:59 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:


  Roger--

I agree with your premise about bringing the drive to the hull, but that's
not the way I went, because it would violate the spirit of starport
classifications, and it was not our place to undermine too many settled
Traveller conventions (pick your favorite convention that we DID
violate--focal arrays vs. Space Battleship Yamato style WW2 turrets is my
favorite distinction without a difference). The RC and the Covenant of
Suffren raised this issue all the time, but I didn't want to get into,
"it's a type A starport except when it's not, it's a type B starport
except when it's a type A." Logically the difference between Type A and B
is not like the difference between Lead and Gold, but more like the
difference between Uranium 238 and Thorium 234. For all I know, the sacred
UWP difference between A and B is like the number of stars in a Michelin
guide: some numbskull at TAS decides "it's a B" and it is because he says
so. That's another piece of the expanded rules I've talked about, "how do
you develop a B Starport into an A Starport," and I wasn't going to trash
the distinction, but put out rules to visualize what the distinction
actually was and how you could manipulate and evolve it. Whether we
touched on any of that in World Tamer's I don't recall, but think we
didn't go that far.

So bottom line is that I was deliberately saying that if you were going to
install a Jump Drive you had to do it at an A starport, thereby working
within the rules until there was time to expand them.

> The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that
> if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In
> addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks
> for much needed military craft.
> My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near
> completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of
> technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec
> workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back
> into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation
> work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being
> TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the
> components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled
> up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once
> this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its
> class-A rating.
> For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a
> multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like
> sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow ship
> to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would
> be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power
> connection.
> My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is
> mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed
> for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or
> a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the
> required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump
> distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of
> those IMTU rules.
> Roger
>

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I wouldn't say the Mistrals are the best example because they are pretty
complete when France declines to turn them over to Putin's Pirates. A
better example might be the way that the QE CVFs are being built where
blocks are built in SEVEN different shipyards and barged to Rosyth for
final assembly, or US SSNs, similar but only three yards. The big issue is
that since it is the real world all that matters is if you can do it, and
no one has to figure out if Rosyth is a type A shipyard and Portsmouth,
Birkenhead, Govan, and Scotstoun aren't, or why if both Groton and Newport
News are type A, why do they barge components around? Obviously Quonset
Point is type B. Game rules are much more arbitrary because you can't just
let real life have a vote when the players need an answer now.

Traveller was first written when ships were almost all still launched down
inclined shipways (Litton Pascagoula probably the only exception at that
time), which hardly ever happens anymore.

> Isn't that sort of what is going on now with naval shipbuilding? For
> example the Mistrals the French are selling to the Russians. They are
> building most of it with some of the high tech stuff(propulsion and stuff)
> but not some(electronics and weapons) the Russians have to fit their less
> capable and cruder systems.I would think you could always swap systems in
> as long as they closly fit except if the tech was way out of line
>
> Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai
>
> We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
> visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)
>
> When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
> just drank what?"
>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 2:59 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Roger--
>>
>> I agree with your premise about bringing the drive to the hull, but
>> that's
>> not the way I went, because it would violate the spirit of starport
>> classifications, and it was not our place to undermine too many settled
>> Traveller conventions (pick your favorite convention that we DID
>> violate--focal arrays vs. Space Battleship Yamato style WW2 turrets is
>> my
>> favorite distinction without a difference). The RC and the Covenant of
>> Suffren raised this issue all the time, but I didn't want to get into,
>> "it's a type A starport except when it's not, it's a type B starport
>> except when it's a type A." Logically the difference between Type A and
>> B
>> is not like the difference between Lead and Gold, but more like the
>> difference between Uranium 238 and Thorium 234. For all I know, the
>> sacred
>> UWP difference between A and B is like the number of stars in a Michelin
>> guide: some numbskull at TAS decides "it's a B" and it is because he
>> says
>> so. That's another piece of the expanded rules I've talked about, "how
>> do
>> you develop a B Starport into an A Starport," and I wasn't going to
>> trash
>> the distinction, but put out rules to visualize what the distinction
>> actually was and how you could manipulate and evolve it. Whether we
>> touched on any of that in World Tamer's I don't recall, but think we
>> didn't go that far.
>>
>> So bottom line is that I was deliberately saying that if you were going
>> to
>> install a Jump Drive you had to do it at an A starport, thereby working
>> within the rules until there was time to expand them.
>>
>> > The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is
>> that
>> > if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk.
>> In
>> > addition it would speed up construction and save the construction
>> docks
>> > for much needed military craft.
>> > My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but
>> near
>> > completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of
>> > technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec
>> > workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back
>> > into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the
>> installation
>> > work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being
>> > TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build
>> the
>> > components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be
>> tooled
>> > up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but
>> once
>> > this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its
>> > class-A rating.
>> > For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on
>> a
>> > multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like
>> > sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow
>> ship
>> > to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that
>> would
>> > be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power
>> > connection.
>> > My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is
>> > mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is
>> needed
>> > for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor
>> or
>> > a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the
>> > required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump
>> > distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of
>> > those IMTU rules.
>> > Roger
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

Exactly.

The sad thing is that Traveller undermined a lot of this with random
UPP/UWP generation. You could have an A starport (shipyard) on a world
with an insignificant population, or a Hi-Pop, Hi-Tech world with a B
Starport. Really? No one there wants a starship? A lot of logic goes right
out the window with randomization at that level. Or, rather, you have to
recalibrate your logic to try to figure out internal structure to all of
the characteristics which APPEAR random, but which we know are absolutely
real in the universe...somehow.

And then there's the whole issue that 90% of the time a PC crew just wants
to dump the cargo, pick up a new one, and head out without interruption
and don't care about any of the rest of it. The game wanted to function on
a lot of different levels, and those different levels made a lot of unkind
demands on each other.

> and consider that an A class star port is not necessarily the physical
> structure on the planet, or in orbit but a whole range of support
> facilities for building and testing the materials etc.  I worked at a
> 500kw broadcast radio system - VLF range the coils on that thing ... well
> the difference from a hotwheels toy car and the real thing.  So it makes
> sense that the A class port would have capabilities that lower class ports
> don't.  Some tests may require a whole solar system to be able to do them
> properly ... even assembly line built ships, components etc can have
> failures ,,, sometimes spectacular ones ... how much more for something
> that is half custom built like a j drive?
>
> On Saturday, February 21, 2015 1:59 PM, "
> [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>   Roger--
>
> I agree with your premise about bringing the drive to the hull, but that's
> not the way I went, because it would violate the spirit of starport
> classifications, and it was not our place to undermine too many settled
> Traveller conventions (pick your favorite convention that we DID
> violate--focal arrays vs. Space Battleship Yamato style WW2 turrets is my
> favorite distinction without a difference). The RC and the Covenant of
> Suffren raised this issue all the time, but I didn't want to get into,
> "it's a type A starport except when it's not, it's a type B starport
> except when it's a type A." Logically the difference between Type A and B
> is not like the difference between Lead and Gold, but more like the
> difference between Uranium 238 and Thorium 234. For all I know, the sacred
> UWP difference between A and B is like the number of stars in a Michelin
> guide: some numbskull at TAS decides "it's a B" and it is because he says
> so. That's another piece of the expanded rules I've talked about, "how do
> you develop a B Starport into an A Starport," and I wasn't going to trash
> the distinction, but put out rules to visualize what the distinction
> actually was and how you could manipulate and evolve it. Whether we
> touched on any of that in World Tamer's I don't recall, but think we
> didn't go that far.
>
> So bottom line is that I was deliberately saying that if you were going to
> install a Jump Drive you had to do it at an A starport, thereby working
> within the rules until there was time to expand them.
>
>> The problem with only having one shipbuilding facility in the RC is that
>> if a vampire hit Aubaine like one did to Nike Nimbus the RC is sunk. In
>> addition it would speed up construction and save the construction docks
>> for much needed military craft.
>> My thought was that Say Trybec could build a J-Hawk style ship but near
>> completion a Multi-mission scout with a J-drive and a couple of
>> technicians on board would fly out and with the assistance of Trybec
>> workers install the J-drive. Over time the technicians could step back
>> into an advisory role as the workers took over more of the installation
>> work. The starport would then be, I guess a B+ or A- facility. Being
>> TL-10, Trybec I assume would have most of the where-to-all to build the
>> components of a jump drive, coils and governors might have to be tooled
>> up and final construction of the drive would have to be build, but once
>> this was done and the personal trained up the starport would get its
>> class-A rating.
>> For an idea, check out BARD and an SDB called ATEF, this is my idea on a
>> multi-tech on a single ship. Modules holding higher tech systems like
>> sensors and the computer to run them is a great idea, it would allow
>> ship
>> to up-graded when funds or need wanted. The only connections that would
>> be needed would be to the bridge, electronics workstation and a power
>> connection.
>> My thoughts on the jump computer limiting the distance of the jump is
>> mixed here. On one side FF&S only states that a third computer is needed
>> for a jump capable ship. Here I assume "again" that the jump governor or
>> a small computer integral to the drive itself is sufficient for the
>> required distance of the jump. I can see where limiting the jump
>> distance because of the jump computer TL. I guess this will be one of
>> those IMTU rules.
>> Roger
>>
>
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The way I always ran it, starports could be on the ground/water, in the sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the following capabilities:
E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo and Chewbacca field repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the translator droid, without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on power cables.
D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a spare part of two (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and maybe a chance to park out of the weather (if there is weather). Restaurants and other accommodations, but not a lot of variety.  Not necessarily seedy, but not a place you want to hang out at either.
C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial landing areas. Good food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard selection of spare parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance facilities for starships, can also do minor repairs or "make do" repairs until you get to a "real" starport.
B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all starship maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can build non-jump capable craft, though usually only standard designs.
A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could build a starship from scratch.

Better the starport, more likely that they will have a combination of terrestrial and orbital facilities.
All this means that my RC would have no problem cranking out starships so long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver imports holds out. You might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a 'B+', in that they are designing and building what amount to starships, though I would argue that in reality they are simply taking advantage of other people's work by building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can have a jump drive slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't make you Dodge or Toyota.

nice list of the A thru D star ports ... for a comparison I view them similar to the airports available now ...Class E similar to what you might find in near a farm ... fuel intended for local use or even imported for sale at premium pricesClass D similar to those around the country side associated with small towns pop <2,000 1-3 restaraunts, local building supply/hardware, small shops - struggling economy Class C small cities population < 15,000 - 100,000 regular service is possible and even likely but by regional carriers, some maintenance and small hangers for local ships/planes a small shopping mall, 1-3 hardware stores, small ship dealers, repairs etc Class B larger cities, often hubs & connection points for the regional carriers to main route carriers.  Some large hangar space available for maintenance, etc.  the sights, sounds etc of the big cities Minneapolis, St Louise, Colorado Springs B class ... Denver & Manila would be B+ or A-Class A like a class B or even 2 but the manufacturer is located here - Seattle-Tacoma, Portsmouth, Boston, New York, London, Hong Kong, Tokyo would be A or A+

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 12:04 AM, "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:


  The way I always ran it, starports could be on the ground/water, in the sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the following capabilities:
E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo and Chewbacca field repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the translator droid, without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on power cables.
D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a spare part of two (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and maybe a chance to park out of the weather (if there is weather). Restaurants and other accommodations, but not a lot of variety.  Not necessarily seedy, but not a place you want to hang out at either.
C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial landing areas. Good food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard selection of spare parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance facilities for starships, can also do minor repairs or "make do" repairs until you get to a "real" starport.
B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all starship maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can build non-jump capable craft, though usually only standard designs.
A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could build a starship from scratch.

Better the starport, more likely that they will have a combination of terrestrial and orbital facilities.
All this means that my RC would have no problem cranking out starships so long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver imports holds out. You might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a 'B+', in that they are designing and building what amount to starships, though I would argue that in reality they are simply taking advantage of other people's work by building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can have a jump drive slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't make you Dodge or Toyota.
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I'd add the following descriptions to them:E - if you bribe the locals and provide your own tech support, you could assemble a fuel pump to get unrefined fuel.  Expect it to break before you have full tanks though.
D - If you bribe the locals and help assemble the filtration equipment, you can get a temporary working pump to provide refined fuel.  Expect it to break before you have full tanks though.C - Can assemble a (non-jump) spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose from whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to the Class B starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you.  Little more than plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is in working order.  The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this is all that is available.B - Can assemble a jump-capable spaceship built at a tech A planet, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose from whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to the Class A starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you.  Little more than plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is in working order.  The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this is all that is available.
Essentially, the Class A starport builds the pieces of the ship, and ships them via freight to a Class B starport to be put together.  This keeps the Class A starport ship slots empty for proper use, and allows the Class B starport technicians practice at assembling ships.
I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them.
Todd Kes

From: "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]" <>

The way I always ran it, starports could be on the ground/water, in the sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the following capabilities:
E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo and Chewbacca field repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the translator droid, without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on power cables.
D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a spare part of two (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and maybe a chance to park out of the weather (if there is weather). Restaurants and other accommodations, but not a lot of variety.  Not necessarily seedy, but not a place you want to hang out at either.
C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial landing areas. Good food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard selection of spare parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance facilities for starships, can also do minor repairs or "make do" repairs until you get to a "real" starport.
B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all starship maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can build non-jump capable craft, though usually only standard designs.
A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could build a starship from scratch.

Better the starport, more likely that they will have a combination of terrestrial and orbital facilities.
All this means that my RC would have no problem cranking out starships so long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver imports holds out. You might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a 'B+', in that they are designing and building what amount to starships, though I would argue that in reality they are simply taking advantage of other people's work by building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can have a jump drive slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't make you Dodge or Toyota.

Two years ago my dad spent 3 and a half months taking a sailboat from San Francisco to Pagopago. On the E end of things you probably don’t have to bribe the locals with much more than some technical assistance. They got all their fresh fruit after they made their first landfall simply by helping the locals out with silly mechanical problems for machines. It was a pretty amazing trip by the sound of it.

From: []
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:58 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding

I'd add the following descriptions to them:

E - if you bribe the locals and provide your own tech support, you could assemble a fuel pump to get unrefined fuel. Expect it to break before you have full tanks though.

D - If you bribe the locals and help assemble the filtration equipment, you can get a temporary working pump to provide refined fuel. Expect it to break before you have full tanks though.

C - Can assemble a (non-jump) spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose from whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to the Class B starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you. Little more than plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is in working order. The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this is all that is available.

B - Can assemble a jump-capable spaceship built at a tech A planet, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose from whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to the Class A starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you. Little more than plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is in working order. The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this is all that is available.

Essentially, the Class A starport builds the pieces of the ship, and ships them via freight to a Class B starport to be put together. This keeps the Class A starport ship slots empty for proper use, and allows the Class B starport technicians practice at assembling ships.

I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them.

Todd Kes

_____

From: "Harold Hale <> [Traveller_TNE]" < <> >

The way I always ran it, starports could be on the ground/water, in the sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the following capabilities:

E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo and Chewbacca field repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the translator droid, without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on power cables.

D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a spare part of two (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and maybe a chance to park out of the weather (if there is weather). Restauran ts and other accommodations, but not a lot of variety. Not necessarily seedy, but not a place you want to hang out at either.

C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial landing areas. Good food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard selection of spare parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance facilities for starships, can also do minor repairs or "make do" repairs until you get to a "real" starport.

B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all starship maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can build non-jump capable craft, though usually only standard designs.

A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could build a starship from scratch.

Better the starport, more likely that they will have a combination of terrestrial and orbital facilities.

All this means that my RC would have no problem cranking out starships so long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver imports holds out. You might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a 'B+', in that they are designing and building what amount to starships, though I would argue that in reality they are simply taking advantage of other people's work by building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can have a jump drive slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't make you Dodge or Toyota.

"I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them."


The term is knockdown kit, my first post had a link to a pretty good wikipedia page describing variations.


Davis

on your last comment ... sounds like Airbus ... not a put down by any means
Tim
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2/22/15, Todd Kes [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding
To: "" <>
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015, 9:57 AM


 









I'd add the following
descriptions to them:E - if you bribe
the locals and provide your own tech support, you could
assemble a fuel pump to get unrefined fuel.  Expect it to
break before you have full tanks though.
D - If you
bribe the locals and help assemble the filtration equipment,
you can get a temporary working pump to provide refined
fuel.  Expect it to break before you have full tanks
though.C - Can
assemble a (non-jump) spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport,
at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose
from whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to
the Class B starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to
you.  Little more than plug Tab A into slot A, this
spaceship will need after-market maintenance to ensure
everything is in working order.  The GM should pick one or
two standard ships, and this is all that is
available.B - Can
assemble a jump-capable spaceship built at a tech A planet,
at a
+30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose from
whatever is
available, or wait for a courier to get to the Class A
starport, and a
freighter to bring the ship to you.  Little more than plug
Tab A into
slot A, this spaceship will need after-market maintenance to
ensure
everything is in working order.  The GM should pick one or
two standard
ships, and this is all that is available.
Essentially,
the Class A starport builds the pieces of the ship, and
ships them via freight to a Class B starport to be put
together.  This keeps the Class A starport ship slots empty
for proper use, and allows the Class B starport technicians
practice at assembling ships.
I'm
trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher
tech nation assembles the key parts, and another nation
assembles them.
Todd
Kes

From: "Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE]"
<>






The way I
always ran it, starports could be on the ground/water, in
the sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the
following capabilities:
E -
Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo and
Chewbacca field repairs, assuming they actually decide to
listen to the translator droid, without worrying about the
local wildlife chewing on power cables.
D - A
place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a spare part
of two (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and
maybe a chance to park out of the weather (if there is
weather). Restaurants and other accommodations, but not a
lot of variety.  Not necessarily seedy, but not a place you
want to hang out at either.
C -
Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial landing areas.
Good food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard
selection of spare parts, wider variety of other facilities.
Maintenance facilities for starships, can also do minor
repairs or "make do" repairs until you get to a
"real" starport.
B -
Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all starship
maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can
build non-jump capable craft, though usually only standard
designs.
A - First
rate facilities and accommodations. Could build a starship
from scratch.

Better
the starport, more likely that they will have a combination
of terrestrial and orbital facilities.
All this
means that my RC would have no problem cranking out
starships so long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or
Hiver imports holds out. You might argue that Aubaine's
starport is actually a 'B+', in that they are
designing and building what amount to starships, though I
would argue that in reality they are simply taking advantage
of other people's work by building spacecraft (as
opposed to starships) that can have a jump drive slapped in
them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't make you Dodge
or Toyota.






























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I don't know if this is still the case, but several years ago they would
ship Toyota and Mazda pickup trucks from Japan in two pieces, the truck
without the pickup bed, and the pickup bed. For some (probably tax,
importation, or customs purposes) they were considered "parts" which were
"assembled in the USA" by bolting the bed on. They used some specific term
like "final assembly" or "assembly in US" to distinguish it from "made in
the US."

> I'd add the following descriptions to them:E - if you bribe the locals and
> provide your own tech support, you could assemble a fuel pump to get
> unrefined fuel.  Expect it to break before you have full tanks though.
> D - If you bribe the locals and help assemble the filtration equipment,
> you can get a temporary working pump to provide refined fuel.  Expect it
> to break before you have full tanks though.C - Can assemble a (non-jump)
> spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport, at a +30% or higher markup, plus
> you have to either choose from whatever is available, or wait for a
> courier to get to the Class B starport, and a freighter to bring the ship
> to you.  Little more than plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will
> need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is in working order. 
> The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this is all that is
> available.B - Can assemble a jump-capable spaceship built at a tech A
> planet, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to either choose from
> whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to the Class A
> starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you.  Little more than
> plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need after-market maintenance
> to ensure everything is in working order.  The GM should pick one or two
> standard ships, and this is all that is available.
> Essentially, the Class A starport builds the pieces of the ship, and ships
> them via freight to a Class B starport to be put together.  This keeps
> the Class A starport ship slots empty for proper use, and allows the Class
> B starport technicians practice at assembling ships.
> I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech
> nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them.
> Todd Kes
>
> From: "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]"
> <>
>
> The way I always ran it, starports could be on the ground/water, in the
> sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the following capabilities:
> E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo and Chewbacca field
> repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the translator droid,
> without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on power cables.
> D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a spare part of two
> (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and maybe a chance to park
> out of the weather (if there is weather). Restaurants and other
> accommodations, but not a lot of variety.  Not necessarily seedy, but not
> a place you want to hang out at either.
> C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial landing areas. Good
> food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard selection of spare
> parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance facilities for
> starships, can also do minor repairs or "make do" repairs until you get to
> a "real" starport.
> B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all starship
> maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can build non-jump
> capable craft, though usually only standard designs.
> A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could build a starship from
> scratch.
>
> Better the starport, more likely that they will have a combination of
> terrestrial and orbital facilities.
> All this means that my RC would have no problem cranking out starships so
> long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver imports holds out. You
> might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a 'B+', in that they are
> designing and building what amount to starships, though I would argue that
> in reality they are simply taking advantage of other people's work by
> building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can have a jump drive
> slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't make you Dodge or Toyota.
>
>
>
>
>

In the aviation industry they generally use the term "final assembly" when
you're doing things like teaching Mitsubishi how to build F-4s and F-15s
or Brazil how to build Gripens, by sending them major aircraft components
that they are learning how to build from the ground up. "Knockdown kit"
probably sounds okay at Oshkosh, but not so much at Le Bourget or
Farnborough.

> "I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech
> nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them."
>
>
> The term is knockdown kit, my first post had a link to a pretty good
> wikipedia page describing variations.
>
>
> Davis
>
>
>
>
>

This thread finally sparked a useful bit of historical trivia in me.
As memory served fruitfully this time, I recalled the Liberty ships of WW2.
they were neither pretty nor easy to look at, but they WERE pretty
efficiently constructed. What they where was a testament to the distributed
construction method we have been dancing about on this thread. basically,
through distributed manufacture of components, and some healthy logistics
support, a 10,100 ton vessel could go from keelplate to launch in ~ 24
days. parts would be manufactured from locations as far away as Denver and
Michigan and shipped via rail to the ports on the west coast and east coast
of the US and assembled in situ. If the RC can manage the logistics,
smallish starships could be constructed at a very rapid pace. If they were
willing to downgrade tech on a couple of assembly lines, there is no reason
a fully new Jayhawk at T10 standards could not be produced in bulk. while
this may not mean so much in the short term, creating a fleet of reliable
merchant vessels would certainly help spur local trade and tech exchanges.
sort of a long haul bootstrap operation. Additionally, several worlds would
benefit locally on the assumption it is easier for a tech 8 based culture
to learn tech 10 gear as opposed to T12 gear. it would require a linear
shift in education rather than a quantum shift in thinking about the new
tech levels.
If construction rates were kept cheap enough, (IMTU, parts built at
1~2 TL lower = %less construction time and cost.) new hulls could be built
tailored to The Schiff of Aubaine. increasing the available number of
trained crew and its ability to explore and exploit resources normally
unavailable to RC forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:45 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> In the aviation industry they generally use the term "final assembly" when
> you're doing things like teaching Mitsubishi how to build F-4s and F-15s
> or Brazil how to build Gripens, by sending them major aircraft components
> that they are learning how to build from the ground up. "Knockdown kit"
> probably sounds okay at Oshkosh, but not so much at Le Bourget or
> Farnborough.
>
> > "I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech
> > nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them."
> >
> >
> > The term is knockdown kit, my first post had a link to a pretty good
> > wikipedia page describing variations.
> >
> >
> > Davis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."

My idea about having the J-drive installed on site was came to me as I sat watching a history channel segment about how Liberty and Victory ships were constructed during WW2.
It seemed to me that space/starship construction docks would be static and parts for installation would be hauled to the dock to arrive after construction and testing of the parts was completed elsewhere. There would be a need for test flights and after installation testing, but this testing should be within the capabilities of a class-B starport as they have to test the repairs they doe on damaged ships they repair.
A class-B port might just have the ability to build all the parts for a J-drive but might fall short on the ability to assemble the drive and test it, as they must have the parts on hand to do the repairs unless they have to have them trucked/flown in from somewhere off planet. This I thing could go either way. A port that gets little action for repairs would have little need to have more than the most common parts on hand and would have to send out for parts more often.
My idea about shipping the J-drive to the starport was for two reasons. First shipping a J-drive would be a lot easier than pulling a clipper out of service and using it to haul the entire hull back to Aubaine for the assembly.
My second reason was the bootstrap effect this would eventually have on the B-starport. I am very big for On-The-Job-Training. There is sure to be bumps in the carpet, but this is why I would send out technicians to guide the installation team through the process.
I agree that changing all the starports around to read B+ or A- would be a pain in the neck, not to mention that Traveler Map software would wand to strangle me for trying. I was thinking more of a notation under the planet's write up stating it now has the ability to install J-drive kits.
Come to think of it a CNN new story would work well too. Something like: Today Trybec and Aubaine authority's are proud to announce that the first star ship Star Sapphire build at Trybec with a jump drive provided by Aubaine has been completed this day. Christening ceremonies are to be held early next week. When asked Secretary General Maggart said "I'm proud of them, it just proves that the Coalition is going down the right road."


Give a guy a book on how to pound a nail into a board, OK sure, but the education truly begins when the guy hits the wrong nail with the hammer.
Roger

Absolutely. There are a handful of key TLs that unlock significant
performance improvements and it's more important to get a lot of worlds to
those levels than to get a few worlds to higher levels. That's why the
Regency approached tech the way they did, investing development in
low-middle stellar rather than high stellar. And there's also the
advantage that tech improvement is not a case of discovering new science
but coaching people to implement science that is already known.

> This thread finally sparked a useful bit of historical trivia in me.
> As memory served fruitfully this time, I recalled the Liberty ships of
> WW2.
> they were neither pretty nor easy to look at, but they WERE pretty
> efficiently constructed. What they where was a testament to the
> distributed
> construction method we have been dancing about on this thread. basically,
> through distributed manufacture of components, and some healthy logistics
> support, a 10,100 ton vessel could go from keelplate to launch in ~ 24
> days. parts would be manufactured from locations as far away as Denver and
> Michigan and shipped via rail to the ports on the west coast and east
> coast
> of the US and assembled in situ. If the RC can manage the logistics,
> smallish starships could be constructed at a very rapid pace. If they were
> willing to downgrade tech on a couple of assembly lines, there is no
> reason
> a fully new Jayhawk at T10 standards could not be produced in bulk. while
> this may not mean so much in the short term, creating a fleet of reliable
> merchant vessels would certainly help spur local trade and tech exchanges.
> sort of a long haul bootstrap operation. Additionally, several worlds
> would
> benefit locally on the assumption it is easier for a tech 8 based culture
> to learn tech 10 gear as opposed to T12 gear. it would require a linear
> shift in education rather than a quantum shift in thinking about the new
> tech levels.
> If construction rates were kept cheap enough, (IMTU, parts built at
> 1~2 TL lower = %less construction time and cost.) new hulls could be built
> tailored to The Schiff of Aubaine. increasing the available number of
> trained crew and its ability to explore and exploit resources normally
> unavailable to RC forces.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:45 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In the aviation industry they generally use the term "final assembly"
>> when
>> you're doing things like teaching Mitsubishi how to build F-4s and F-15s
>> or Brazil how to build Gripens, by sending them major aircraft
>> components
>> that they are learning how to build from the ground up. "Knockdown kit"
>> probably sounds okay at Oshkosh, but not so much at Le Bourget or
>> Farnborough.
>>
>> > "I'm trying to remember the name of where one factory in a higher tech
>> > nation assembles the key parts, and another nation assembles them."
>> >
>> >
>> > The term is knockdown kit, my first post had a link to a pretty good
>> > wikipedia page describing variations.
>> >
>> >
>> > Davis
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> for
> it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
> kids pay for it."
>

Roger--

In case I wasn't clear before, I absolutely agree with your approach, and
what you describe is exactly what it would look like as a B starport
crossed the line into an A (just as shipping kits to Mitsubishi and Brazil
is part of the process where they become F-4, F-15, and Gripen producers).
The reason I didn't go that way was to avoid the "people wanting to
strangle me" factor, at least until I could ship the assertion with some
rules that would show we were enhancing the rules, not discarding them.

> My idea about having the J-drive installed on site was came to me as I sat
> watching a history channel segment about how Liberty and Victory ships
> were constructed during WW2.
> It seemed to me that space/starship construction docks would be static
> and parts for installation would be hauled to the dock to arrive after
> construction and testing of the parts was completed elsewhere. There
> would be a need for test flights and after installation testing, but this
> testing should be within the capabilities of a class-B starport as they
> have to test the repairs they doe on damaged ships they repair.
> A class-B port might just have the ability to build all the parts for a
> J-drive but might fall short on the ability to assemble the drive and
> test it, as they must have the parts on hand to do the repairs unless
> they have to have them trucked/flown in from somewhere off planet. This
> I thing could go either way. A port that gets little action for repairs
> would have little need to have more than the most common parts on hand
> and would have to send out for parts more often.
> My idea about shipping the J-drive to the starport was for two reasons.
> First shipping a J-drive would be a lot easier than pulling a clipper out
> of service and using it to haul the entire hull back to Aubaine for the
> assembly.
> My second reason was the bootstrap effect this would eventually have on
> the B-starport. I am very big for On-The-Job-Training. There is sure to
> be bumps in the carpet, but this is why I would send out technicians to
> guide the installation team through the process.
> I agree that changing all the starports around to read B+ or A- would be
> a pain in the neck, not to mention that Traveler Map software would wand
> to strangle me for trying. I was thinking more of a notation under the
> planet's write up stating it now has the ability to install J-drive kits.
> Come to think of it a CNN new story would work well too. Something like:
> Today Trybec and Aubaine authority's are proud to announce that the
> first star ship Star Sapphire build at Trybec with a jump drive provided
> by Aubaine has been completed this day. Christening ceremonies are to be
> held early next week. When asked Secretary General Maggart said "I'm
> proud of them, it just proves that the Coalition is going down the right
> road."
>
>
> Give a guy a book on how to pound a nail into a board, OK sure, but the
> education truly begins when the guy hits the wrong nail with the hammer.
> Roger
>

My train of thoughts have always been down this road. it is easier / more
economical to ship low volume, high value parts to high volume, low value
hulls. History has proven the efficiency inherent in this methodology. So
even in accordance with the rules, Oriflamme could, with their high
population mass produce the hulls at tech 9, Trybec, Eos and Nike
Nimbus could mass produce the electronics at T10, and Aubaine could mass
produce the jump(1) drives. They could be assembled at Oriflamme with high
efficiency by the population and the Technarchs management. This would,
with the exception of the hull, produce a unified tech level ship. Politics
has prevented this of course, Aubaine is rightfully afraid of Oriflamme and
its ambitions. Yet Trybec doesn't have the population base (IMO) to manage
bulk hull construction. I make an assumption about importing assembly line
manufacturing for Nike Nimbus of course, while Eos has only to step down
its tech level production.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:07 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> My idea about having the J-drive installed on site was came to me as I sat
> watching a history channel segment about how Liberty and Victory ships were
> constructed during WW2.
>
> It seemed to me that space/starship construction docks would be static and
> parts for installation would be hauled to the dock to arrive after
> construction and testing of the parts was completed elsewhere. There would
> be a need for test flights and after installation testing, but this testing
> should be within the capabilities of a class-B starport as they have to
> test the repairs they doe on damaged ships they repair.
>
> A class-B port might just have the ability to build all the parts for a
> J-drive but might fall short on the ability to assemble the drive and test
> it, as they must have the parts on hand to do the repairs unless they have
> to have them trucked/flown in from somewhere off planet. This I thing
> could go either way. A port that gets little action for repairs would have
> little need to have more than the most common parts on hand and would have
> to send out for parts more often.
>
> My idea about shipping the J-drive to the starport was for two reasons.
> First shipping a J-drive would be a lot easier than pulling a clipper out
> of service and using it to haul the entire hull back to Aubaine for the
> assembly.
>
> My second reason was the bootstrap effect this would eventually have on
> the B-starport. I am very big for On-The-Job-Training. There is sure to
> be bumps in the carpet, but this is why I would send out technicians to
> guide the installation team through the process.
>
> I agree that changing all the starports around to read B+ or A- would be a
> pain in the neck, not to mention that Traveler Map software would wand
> to strangle me for trying. I was thinking more of a notation under the
> planet's write up stating it now has the ability to install J-drive kits.
>
> Come to think of it a CNN new story would work well too. Something like:
> Today Trybec and Aubaine authority's are proud to announce that the first
> star ship *Star Sapphire *build at Trybec with a jump drive provided by
> Aubaine has been completed this day. Christening ceremonies are to be held
> early next week. When asked Secretary General Maggart said "I'm proud of
> them, it just proves that the Coalition is going down the right road."
>
>
> Give a guy a book on how to pound a nail into a board, OK sure, but the
> education truly begins when the guy hits the wrong nail with the hammer.
>
> Roger
>
>
>

--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."

That was because of something called the "Chicken Tax".

Basically it was a punitive measure in response to French and German tariffs on US Chicken in the early 1960s. Domestic politics added light truck importation to the items the Chicken Tax hit.

Light truck covered commercial trucks and pick-ups, so manufacturers get around the restriction as best they could. Japan by exporting the cab and chassis, others allowing knock-down assembly, and Ford by importing European Ford trucks in passenger configuration - then stripping them back to light truck.

Necessity is the mother of all work-arounds.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 23/2/15, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding
To:
Date: Monday, 23 February, 2015, 15:20


I don't know if this is still the case, but
several years ago they would

ship Toyota and Mazda pickup trucks from Japan in two
pieces, the truck

without the pickup bed, and the pickup bed. For some
(probably tax,

importation, or customs purposes) they were considered
"parts" which were

"assembled in the USA" by bolting the bed on. They
used some specific term

like "final assembly" or "assembly in
US" to distinguish it from "made in

the US."



> I'd add the following descriptions to them:E - if
you bribe the locals and

> provide your own tech support, you could assemble a
fuel pump to get

> unrefined fuel.  Expect it to break before you have
full tanks though.

> D - If you bribe the locals and help assemble the
filtration equipment,

> you can get a temporary working pump to provide refined
fuel.  Expect it

> to break before you have full tanks though.C - Can
assemble a (non-jump)

> spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport, at a +30% or
higher markup, plus

> you have to either choose from whatever is available,
or wait for a

> courier to get to the Class B starport, and a freighter
to bring the ship

> to you.  Little more than plug Tab A into slot A,
this spaceship will

> need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is
in working order. 

> The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this
is all that is

> available.B - Can assemble a jump-capable spaceship
built at a tech A

> planet, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to
either choose from

> whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to
the Class A

> starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you. 
Little more than

> plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need
after-market maintenance

> to ensure everything is in working order.  The GM
should pick one or two

> standard ships, and this is all that is available.

> Essentially, the Class A starport builds the pieces of
the ship, and ships

> them via freight to a Class B starport to be put
together.  This keeps

> the Class A starport ship slots empty for proper use,
and allows the Class

> B starport technicians practice at assembling ships.

> I'm trying to remember the name of where one
factory in a higher tech

> nation assembles the key parts, and another nation
assembles them.

> Todd Kes

>

> From: "Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE]"

> <>

>

> The way I always ran it, starports could be on the
ground/water, in the

> sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the
following capabilities:

> E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo
and Chewbacca field

> repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the
translator droid,

> without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on
power cables.

> D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a
spare part of two

> (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and
maybe a chance to park

> out of the weather (if there is weather). Restaurants
and other

> accommodations, but not a lot of variety.  Not
necessarily seedy, but not

> a place you want to hang out at either.

> C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial
landing areas. Good

> food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard
selection of spare

> parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance
facilities for

> starships, can also do minor repairs or "make
do" repairs until you get to

> a "real" starport.

> B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all
starship

> maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can
build non-jump

> capable craft, though usually only standard designs.

> A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could
build a starship from

> scratch.

>

> Better the starport, more likely that they will have a
combination of

> terrestrial and orbital facilities.

> All this means that my RC would have no problem
cranking out starships so

> long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver
imports holds out. You

> might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a
'B+', in that they are

> designing and building what amount to starships, though
I would argue that

> in reality they are simply taking advantage of other
people's work by

> building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can
have a jump drive

> slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't
make you Dodge or Toyota.

>

>

>

>

>













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#yiv7743936810

That's a truly remarkable bit of research, or memory, or trivia. I just
remember seeing all of the acres of bedless pickups with beds strapped to
them down in Norfolk and asked around, but never learned which specific
law it was.

> That was because of something called the "Chicken Tax".
>
> Basically it was a punitive measure in response to French and German
> tariffs on US Chicken in the early 1960s. Domestic politics added light
> truck importation to the items the Chicken Tax hit.
>
> Light truck covered commercial trucks and pick-ups, so manufacturers get
> around the restriction as best they could. Japan by exporting the cab and
> chassis, others allowing knock-down assembly, and Ford by importing
> European Ford trucks in passenger configuration - then stripping them back
> to light truck.
>
> Necessity is the mother of all work-arounds.
>
> Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 23/2/15, [Traveller_TNE]
> <> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding
> To:
> Date: Monday, 23 February, 2015, 15:20
>
>
>
> I don't know if this is still the case, but
> several years ago they would
>
> ship Toyota and Mazda pickup trucks from Japan in two
> pieces, the truck
>
> without the pickup bed, and the pickup bed. For some
> (probably tax,
>
> importation, or customs purposes) they were considered
> "parts" which were
>
> "assembled in the USA" by bolting the bed on. They
> used some specific term
>
> like "final assembly" or "assembly in
> US" to distinguish it from "made in
>
> the US."
>
>
>
> > I'd add the following descriptions to them:E - if
> you bribe the locals and
>
> > provide your own tech support, you could assemble a
> fuel pump to get
>
> > unrefined fuel.  Expect it to break before you have
> full tanks though.
>
> > D - If you bribe the locals and help assemble the
> filtration equipment,
>
> > you can get a temporary working pump to provide refined
> fuel.  Expect it
>
> > to break before you have full tanks though.C - Can
> assemble a (non-jump)
>
> > spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport, at a +30% or
> higher markup, plus
>
> > you have to either choose from whatever is available,
> or wait for a
>
> > courier to get to the Class B starport, and a freighter
> to bring the ship
>
> > to you.  Little more than plug Tab A into slot A,
> this spaceship will
>
> > need after-market maintenance to ensure everything is
> in working order. 
>
> > The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and this
> is all that is
>
> > available.B - Can assemble a jump-capable spaceship
> built at a tech A
>
> > planet, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have to
> either choose from
>
> > whatever is available, or wait for a courier to get to
> the Class A
>
> > starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to you. 
> Little more than
>
> > plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will need
> after-market maintenance
>
> > to ensure everything is in working order.  The GM
> should pick one or two
>
> > standard ships, and this is all that is available.
>
> > Essentially, the Class A starport builds the pieces of
> the ship, and ships
>
> > them via freight to a Class B starport to be put
> together.  This keeps
>
> > the Class A starport ship slots empty for proper use,
> and allows the Class
>
> > B starport technicians practice at assembling ships.
>
> > I'm trying to remember the name of where one
> factory in a higher tech
>
> > nation assembles the key parts, and another nation
> assembles them.
>
> > Todd Kes
>
> >
>
> > From: "Harold Hale
> [Traveller_TNE]"
>
> > <>
>
> >
>
> > The way I always ran it, starports could be on the
> ground/water, in the
>
> > sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had the
> following capabilities:
>
> > E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han Solo
> and Chewbacca field
>
> > repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen to the
> translator droid,
>
> > without worrying about the local wildlife chewing on
> power cables.
>
> > D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter for a
> spare part of two
>
> > (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights and
> maybe a chance to park
>
> > out of the weather (if there is weather). Restaurants
> and other
>
> > accommodations, but not a lot of variety.  Not
> necessarily seedy, but not
>
> > a place you want to hang out at either.
>
> > C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and commercial
> landing areas. Good
>
> > food, better places to sleep off the ship, standard
> selection of spare
>
> > parts, wider variety of other facilities. Maintenance
> facilities for
>
> > starships, can also do minor repairs or "make
> do" repairs until you get to
>
> > a "real" starport.
>
> > B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can do all
> starship
>
> > maintenance, including major repairs and overhauls. Can
> build non-jump
>
> > capable craft, though usually only standard designs.
>
> > A - First rate facilities and accommodations. Could
> build a starship from
>
> > scratch.
>
> >
>
> > Better the starport, more likely that they will have a
> combination of
>
> > terrestrial and orbital facilities.
>
> > All this means that my RC would have no problem
> cranking out starships so
>
> > long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or Hiver
> imports holds out. You
>
> > might argue that Aubaine's starport is actually a
> 'B+', in that they are
>
> > designing and building what amount to starships, though
> I would argue that
>
> > in reality they are simply taking advantage of other
> people's work by
>
> > building spacecraft (as opposed to starships) that can
> have a jump drive
>
> > slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride doesn't
> make you Dodge or Toyota.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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True story from my days as a U.S. Customs import specialist (I lasted about 8 months...the job was just too boring for words and paid crap)...
The Subaru BRAT was a light weight pick up truck that had two heavy duty rear facing seats in the truck and carpeting in the bed.  The story was that the import tax on pick ups was much higher than it was for cars (the aforementioned Chicken tax). Subaru shipped them to the U.S. as cars, not trucks, making the argument that the rear facing seats in the truck bed qualified the vehicle to be a 4 passenger car.  Customs eventually decided that a "pig was a pig" and a truck was a truck, and the seats stopped being a feature after the 1985 model year.

Life is lived in the margins and gutters (printing meaning) and white space.

> True story from my days as a U.S. Customs import specialist (I lasted
> about 8 months...the job was just too boring for words and paid crap)...
> The Subaru BRAT was a light weight pick up truck that had two heavy duty
> rear facing seats in the truck and carpeting in the bed.  The story was
> that the import tax on pick ups was much higher than it was for cars (the
> aforementioned Chicken tax). Subaru shipped them to the U.S. as cars, not
> trucks, making the argument that the rear facing seats in the truck bed
> qualified the vehicle to be a 4 passenger car.  Customs eventually
> decided that a "pig was a pig" and a truck was a truck, and the seats
> stopped being a feature after the 1985 model year.
>
>

>> "Knockdown kit" probably sounds okay at Oshkosh,>> but not so much at Le Bourget or Farnborough.

You may use your fancy-pants Galanglic words all you like, but "knockdown kit" is a fine ancient Vilani term with immediate understanding and impeccable provenance. 
;)
davis

(Genuinely laughing out loud)

Okay, you got me, knockdown kit it is!

>>> "Knockdown kit" probably sounds okay at Oshkosh,>> but not so much at
>>> Le Bourget or Farnborough.
>
> You may use your fancy-pants Galanglic words all you like, but "knockdown
> kit" is a fine ancient Vilani term with immediate understanding and
> impeccable provenance. 
> ;)
> davis
>

Well, I read it once - and it was such an interesting situation that I never really forgot it.

A bit like TNE! ;)

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 24/2/15, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding
To:
Date: Tuesday, 24 February, 2015, 16:03


 









That's a truly remarkable bit of research, or
memory, or trivia. I just

remember seeing all of the acres of bedless pickups with
beds strapped to

them down in Norfolk and asked around, but never learned
which specific

law it was.



> That was because of something called the "Chicken
Tax".

>

> Basically it was a punitive measure in response to
French and German

> tariffs on US Chicken in the early 1960s. Domestic
politics added light

> truck importation to the items the Chicken Tax hit.

>

> Light truck covered commercial trucks and pick-ups, so
manufacturers get

> around the restriction as best they could. Japan by
exporting the cab and

> chassis, others allowing knock-down assembly, and Ford
by importing

> European Ford trucks in passenger configuration - then
stripping them back

> to light truck.

>

> Necessity is the mother of all work-arounds.

>

> Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

> --------------------------------------------

> On Mon, 23/2/15, [Traveller_TNE]

> <> wrote:

>

> Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] RC Shipbuilding

> To:

> Date: Monday, 23 February, 2015, 15:20

>

>

>

> I don't know if this is still the case,
but

> several years ago they would

>

> ship Toyota and Mazda pickup trucks from Japan in
two

> pieces, the truck

>

> without the pickup bed, and the pickup bed. For
some

> (probably tax,

>

> importation, or customs purposes) they were
considered

> "parts" which were

>

> "assembled in the USA" by bolting the bed
on. They

> used some specific term

>

> like "final assembly" or "assembly
in

> US" to distinguish it from "made in

>

> the US."

>

>

>

> > I'd add the following descriptions to them:E
- if

> you bribe the locals and

>

> > provide your own tech support, you could assemble
a

> fuel pump to get

>

> > unrefined fuel.  Expect it to break
before you have

> full tanks though.

>

> > D - If you bribe the locals and help assemble
the

> filtration equipment,

>

> > you can get a temporary working pump to provide
refined

> fuel.  Expect it

>

> > to break before you have full tanks though.C -
Can

> assemble a (non-jump)

>

> > spaceship built at a tech B Spaceport, at a +30%
or

> higher markup, plus

>

> > you have to either choose from whatever is
available,

> or wait for a

>

> > courier to get to the Class B starport, and a
freighter

> to bring the ship

>

> > to you.  Little more than plug Tab A into
slot A,

> this spaceship will

>

> > need after-market maintenance to ensure
everything is

> in working order. 

>

> > The GM should pick one or two standard ships, and
this

> is all that is

>

> > available.B - Can assemble a jump-capable
spaceship

> built at a tech A

>

> > planet, at a +30% or higher markup, plus you have
to

> either choose from

>

> > whatever is available, or wait for a courier to
get to

> the Class A

>

> > starport, and a freighter to bring the ship to
you. 

> Little more than

>

> > plug Tab A into slot A, this spaceship will
need

> after-market maintenance

>

> > to ensure everything is in working
order.  The GM

> should pick one or two

>

> > standard ships, and this is all that is
available.

>

> > Essentially, the Class A starport builds the
pieces of

> the ship, and ships

>

> > them via freight to a Class B starport to be
put

> together.  This keeps

>

> > the Class A starport ship slots empty for proper
use,

> and allows the Class

>

> > B starport technicians practice at assembling
ships.

>

> > I'm trying to remember the name of where
one

> factory in a higher tech

>

> > nation assembles the key parts, and another
nation

> assembles them.

>

> > Todd Kes

>

> >

>

> > From: "Harold Hale


> [Traveller_TNE]"

>

> > <>

>

> >

>

> > The way I always ran it, starports could be on
the

> ground/water, in the

>

> > sky (floating cities), or in low orbit and had
the

> following capabilities:

>

> > E - Basically a place to park. A place to do Han
Solo

> and Chewbacca field

>

> > repairs, assuming they actually decide to listen
to the

> translator droid,

>

> > without worrying about the local wildlife chewing
on

> power cables.

>

> > D - A place to get unrefined fuel, Maybe barter
for a

> spare part of two

>

> > (selection varies wildly). Real landing lights
and

> maybe a chance to park

>

> > out of the weather (if there is weather).
Restaurants

> and other

>

> > accommodations, but not a lot of
variety.  Not

> necessarily seedy, but not

>

> > a place you want to hang out at either.

>

> > C - Refined fuel, actual terminals and
commercial

> landing areas. Good

>

> > food, better places to sleep off the ship,
standard

> selection of spare

>

> > parts, wider variety of other facilities.
Maintenance

> facilities for

>

> > starships, can also do minor repairs or
"make

> do" repairs until you get to

>

> > a "real" starport.

>

> > B - Everything at a C starport but more so. Can
do all

> starship

>

> > maintenance, including major repairs and
overhauls. Can

> build non-jump

>

> > capable craft, though usually only standard
designs.

>

> > A - First rate facilities and accommodations.
Could

> build a starship from

>

> > scratch.

>

> >

>

> > Better the starport, more likely that they will
have a

> combination of

>

> > terrestrial and orbital facilities.

>

> > All this means that my RC would have no
problem

> cranking out starships so

>

> > long as the supply of salvaged jump drives or
Hiver

> imports holds out. You

>

> > might argue that Aubaine's starport is
actually a

> 'B+', in that they are

>

> > designing and building what amount to starships,
though

> I would argue that

>

> > in reality they are simply taking advantage of
other

> people's work by

>

> > building spacecraft (as opposed to starships)
that can

> have a jump drive

>

> > slapped in them. Pimping someone's ride
doesn't

> make you Dodge or Toyota.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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> #yiv7743936810

>

>













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