Thread: Money in Traveller

Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry mail.
I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230 of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called Specie Currency.
One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/ traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver = Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the Coalition you have to except the money.
In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
Roger

I'm a little leery of Letters of Credit. I can see how it would be easy to use but it would still take time to verify that the person with the letter of credit is the person to whom it belongs to, the lag time to confirm the letter will still take weeks. Say you have a letter of credit drawn n the bank of Regina and you want to cash it in on Aramis, but as an independent free trader you have to follow the cargos and they take you to Aramanx instead. So even if you have the bank of Regina send confirmation ahead of you the bank on Aramanx it will take at least four weeks for the confirmation to be forwarded.
Independent free traders who go from world to world and never look back most likely have to take their financial records with them. Here the bank reader cards that carry all the records would work best. He could access all his record at any time using his back reader or maybe a hand computer. He would know exactly how much money he has to spend and would be able to make transactions on the spot with no lag time waiting for confirmation. When he go to a bank he could have his records updated and sent to his home bank of if he has no home bank a local bank could update his records. I picture this working like a debit card does today except the card having all the information on it means you don't have to wait for the bank the debit card belongs to to confirm the amount is available as the card will do it automatically.
Free traders with regular routes will tend to stick to these routes so will become well known to the banks on the worlds they regularly visit making it much easier to draw a line of credit on a local bank and confirmation is quicker due to shorter distances.
For merchants that work for bigger corporations even small sub-sector wide ones can call on a local factor that works for the corporation to handle the money. As for personal use money like salary's the bank reader card works for me for personal purchases.
You could go with paper money and hard coins instead of or in addition to the bank reader card. this cash would be printed at the sub-sector capital and shipped out to banks in the sub-sector who would then issue it much like is done today. During the rebellion each side would make up their own paper money so if you did cross boarder trade you would have to be very careful as handing over a Lucan Credit to Dulinor could get you shot.
During the collapse a merchant would have to have currency that all would recognize and except. Here the only thing I can see people excepting is specie currency. No one would care who's face was on the coin (the local warlord or John Doe from ten worlds over) just that a gold coin was a gold coin.
In the Coalition we use the paper money route as people would still be leery of spreading virus by using the bank reader cards. Banks in the Coalition would have a ready supply of specie currency for free traders and lancers who were going out into the wilds where most people have only heard about the Coalition "Vikings" and would probably run away if someone flashed Coalition money around. Not to mention the TEDs, Guild and Solee who would be much interested not in the money but in the person who was flashing the money around.
Personally I like the idea of the bank reader card as all the information is at hand and there is no lag time, it makes things easier, but we still use both Imperial or Coalition paper/coin money and specie currency as well. There's nothing better to get some one's attention than to walk in and toss a gold coin on the table.
Roger

What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
the valuable substance).
--- In , "roger" wrote:
>
> Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
mail.
> I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
> I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
Specie Currency.
> One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
> If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
Coalition you have to except the money.
> In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
> Roger
>

interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto for platinum, iridium etc.  But another addition to the mix could be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am not sure ...
Tim

>________________________________
From: Richard Crowley
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>
>
> 
>
>What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
>by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
>subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
>irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
>hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
>possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
>the valuable substance).
>--- In , "roger" wrote:
>>
>> Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
>Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
>in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
>transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
>mail.
>> I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
>money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
>money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
>Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
>would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
>of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
>> I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
>Specie Currency.
>> One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
>traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
>and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
>Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
>> If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
>death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
>Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
>Coalition you have to except the money.
>> In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
>economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
>25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
>hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
>speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
>> Roger
>>
>
>
>

I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing up a paper/credit currency in the wilds.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:

> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am not sure ...
> Tim
>
> From: Richard Crowley >
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>
> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
> by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
> subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
> irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
> hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
> possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
> the valuable substance).
> --- In , "roger" wrote:
> >
> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
> in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
> transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
> mail.
> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
> money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
> would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
> of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
> Specie Currency.
> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
> and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
> Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
> Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
> Coalition you have to except the money.
> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
> speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
> > Roger
> >
>
>

Interesting discussion.

Back in the day, Marc did spend a whole lot of time talking about the
details of Imperial currency, the coins which were extruded plastic (with
chips, I think) "like Christmas candy," and paper bills also extruded
plastic, but sliced very thin, which placed a lot of emphasis on "cash,"
except that the word for them was "credits," which naturally begs the
question. Obviously all money is actually only credit, "backed by the good
faith and hoo-hah" of this bank or that Federal reserve, etc. But the feel
was of an emphasis on physical money that you carried, not credit cards.
It comes back to story-telling more than anything else.

The feel of physical currency is nice and very Old West.

The feel of credit cards or sticks or suppositories or implants is a
response to the rise of these same things in our societies, and the sense
that these are cooler and more modern. Basically around the time that
CyberPunk took off, even though CyberPunk undermined the premise.

Bottom line is that there are economies in the OTU, so SOMETHING works,
but the harder you try to pin it down the more it slips through your
fingers. Any electronic basis is going to be a permanent war of measure
and countermeasure and counter-countermeasure between the banks and the
thieves, and since Traveller is primarily about the ethically challenged,
that sort of begs the question again.

And all of the entertainment around us is all about, "hey, hack into that
webcam over there and give me a feed," or "hack into the Pentagon
mainframe and take over command of..." and these all take three seconds,
so people come to their entertainment with certain (ridiculous)
expectations.

Bottom line is that you'll want to figure out what kind of story you want
to tell. And in Derek's case, if he's already decided he needs a "follow
the money" plot device, then it has to be electronic.

Other bottom line is that I'm glad we didn't waste a lot of time trying to
describe interstellar banking in TNE. What a waste of time that would have
been.

Actually, that's where we should have had the Virus. Interstellar commerce
was based on psionically active implanted chips inside all of the money
that maintained real-time contact with each other over interstellar
distances to keep track of credits and debits and what belonged to who,
and then those chips got infected. People would have believed that. Filthy
lucre.

And then you get into the whole Imperial Warrant thing, which I would
never believe if someone stuck one in my face, and the only canonical one
in play was basically a passion play on what a horrible idea they are.
Thank God Norris found it...or forged one...or created the Edict 907 Hoax
and hacked it into every library computer in Charted Space.

> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use
some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing
up
> a paper/credit currency in the wilds.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:
>
>> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type
... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in
ditto for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could
be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get
certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality,
weight, and cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy
from super adv society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave
New World but am not sure ...
>> Tim
>> From: Richard Crowley >
>> To:
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
>> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
the valuable substance).
>> --- In , "roger" wrote:
>> >
>> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
>> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
mail.
>> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
>> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in
any
>> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
>> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
>> Specie Currency.
>> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
>> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
>> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
>> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining
the
>> Coalition you have to except the money.
>> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will
>> dominate
>> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
>> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
>> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
>> > Roger
>> >
>

That's difficult since anyone stumbling on an Imperial cache could wildly
destabilize any given economy. I'm thinking almost entirely barter. High
technology that could be demonstrated Virus free would be most valuable,
but that's also risky... Some worlds are going to want textiles or foods,
etc.

Abstract, but barter based on the trade codes is most likely for Free
Traders post Collapse. Coalition and Regency fiat currency would be
something new that could avoid direct manipulation from a hot or cold
recovery.

The 3I had the economic weight behind it to promote its canon plastic
currency. I think Free Traders without established routes are mostly going
to carry a large amount of cash with them and rely on X boat speeds to
verify Letters of Credit from planetary/subsector banks. I could see a
reputation based association "Credit Record" being propagated through the X
boat network, possibly several competing ones based around and/or exclusive
to the Megacorps... Some world be more restrictive in membership or gaining
reputation but would offer greater limits while others might be more
permissive wiry higher interest, etc

___
>From my T989
**

I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use
some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing up a
paper/credit currency in the wilds.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:

interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type ...
a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto for
platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could be gem
stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain
values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and
cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv
society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am
not sure ...
Tim

*From:* Richard Crowley >
*To:*
*Sent:* Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
*Subject:* [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
**

What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
the valuable substance).
--- In ,
"roger" wrote:
>
> Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
mail.
> I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
> I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
Specie Currency.
> One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
> If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
Coalition you have to except the money.
> In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
> Roger
>

****

A physical currency also matches the retro-futuristic "feel" of Traveller (swords, slug-throwers, etc).

-Wayne

--- In , dcndcn13@... wrote:
>
> Interesting discussion.
[snip]
> The feel of physical currency is nice and very Old West.
[snip]

I don't imagine a billion dollars worth of Imperial Currency would be worth the plastic it's printed on in the wilds, they do make sparkly ear rings and sewn together you can make a nice water proof slicker out of the bills. Even in the Regency I imagine Imperial credits have been replaced with Regency credits just to prevent something like that happening.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 9:34, Master Uxi > wrote:

> That's difficult since anyone stumbling on an Imperial cache could wildly destabilize any given economy. I'm thinking almost entirely barter. High technology that could be demonstrated Virus free would be most valuable, but that's also risky... Some worlds are going to want textiles or foods, etc.
>
> Abstract, but barter based on the trade codes is most likely for Free Traders post Collapse. Coalition and Regency fiat currency would be something new that could avoid direct manipulation from a hot or cold recovery.
>
> The 3I had the economic weight behind it to promote its canon plastic currency. I think Free Traders without established routes are mostly going to carry a large amount of cash with them and rely on X boat speeds to verify Letters of Credit from planetary/subsector banks. I could see a reputation based association "Credit Record" being propagated through the X boat network, possibly several competing ones based around and/or exclusive to the Megacorps... Some world be more restrictive in membership or gaining reputation but would offer greater limits while others might be more permissive wiry higher interest, etc
>
> ___
> From my T989
>
>
> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing up a paper/credit currency in the wilds.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:
>
>>
>> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am not sure ...
>> Tim
>>
>> From: Richard Crowley >
>> To:
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
>> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>>
>> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
>> by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
>> subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
>> irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
>> hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
>> possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
>> the valuable substance).
>> --- In , "roger" wrote:
>> >
>> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
>> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
>> in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
>> transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
>> mail.
>> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
>> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
>> money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
>> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
>> would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
>> of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
>> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
>> Specie Currency.
>> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
>> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
>> and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
>> Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
>> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
>> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
>> Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
>> Coalition you have to except the money.
>> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
>> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
>> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
>> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
>> speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
>> > Roger
>> >
>
>

Not just currency, but think if a Free Trader finds an imperial era mine
out even better a refinery with a large store of gold, iridium, or
unobtanium...

___
>From my T989
On Jan 18, 2013 10:49 AM, "DEREK STANLEY" > wrote:

> **
>
>
> I don't imagine a billion dollars worth of Imperial Currency would be
> worth the plastic it's printed on in the wilds, they do make sparkly ear
> rings and sewn together you can make a nice water proof slicker out of the
> bills. Even in the Regency I imagine Imperial credits have been replaced
> with Regency credits just to prevent something like that happening.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On 2013-01-18, at 9:34, Master Uxi > wrote:
>
>
>
> That's difficult since anyone stumbling on an Imperial cache could wildly
> destabilize any given economy. I'm thinking almost entirely barter. High
> technology that could be demonstrated Virus free would be most valuable,
> but that's also risky... Some worlds are going to want textiles or foods,
> etc.
>
> Abstract, but barter based on the trade codes is most likely for Free
> Traders post Collapse. Coalition and Regency fiat currency would be
> something new that could avoid direct manipulation from a hot or cold
> recovery.
>
> The 3I had the economic weight behind it to promote its canon plastic
> currency. I think Free Traders without established routes are mostly going
> to carry a large amount of cash with them and rely on X boat speeds to
> verify Letters of Credit from planetary/subsector banks. I could see a
> reputation based association "Credit Record" being propagated through the X
> boat network, possibly several competing ones based around and/or exclusive
> to the Megacorps... Some world be more restrictive in membership or gaining
> reputation but would offer greater limits while others might be more
> permissive wiry higher interest, etc
>
> ___
> From my T989
> **
>
>
> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use
> some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing up a
> paper/credit currency in the wilds.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:
>
>
>
> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type
> ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto
> for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could be gem
> stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain
> values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and
> cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv
> society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am
> not sure ...
> Tim
>
> *From:* Richard Crowley >
> *To:*
> *Sent:* Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
> *Subject:* [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
> **
>
> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
> by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
> subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
> irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
> hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
> possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
> the valuable substance).
> --- In ,
> "roger" wrote:
> >
> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
> in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
> transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
> mail.
> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
> money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
> would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
> of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
> Specie Currency.
> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
> and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
> Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
> Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
> Coalition you have to except the money.
> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
> speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
> > Roger
> >
>
> ****
>
>
>

It wasn't so much I decided the players would become mercenary accountants sailing on the wide accountan sea. Its a matter that as a player we're trying to unravel a number of mysteries and it was decided to try and figure out who the inside man was by following the money. which lead to the quandary, how do you follow money that might be weeks or months away? Which further led to this discussion.

The only reasonable solution is hard cash or everyone's their own bank, somehow.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 9:31, wrote:

> Bottom line is that you'll want to figure out what kind of story you want
> to tell. And in Derek's case, if he's already decided he needs a "follow
> the money" plot device, then it has to be electronic.

This is why people go out into the wilds and do stupid things, to find the Holy Grail, City of Gold, Vault of Ancient Mysteries. Fortune and glory kid, fortune and glory.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 10:52, Master Uxi > wrote:

> Not just currency, but think if a Free Trader finds an imperial era mine out even better a refinery with a large store of gold, iridium, or unobtanium...
>
> ___
> From my T989
> On Jan 18, 2013 10:49 AM, "DEREK STANLEY" > wrote:
>>
>> I don't imagine a billion dollars worth of Imperial Currency would be worth the plastic it's printed on in the wilds, they do make sparkly ear rings and sewn together you can make a nice water proof slicker out of the bills. Even in the Regency I imagine Imperial credits have been replaced with Regency credits just to prevent something like that happening.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>
>> On 2013-01-18, at 9:34, Master Uxi > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's difficult since anyone stumbling on an Imperial cache could wildly destabilize any given economy. I'm thinking almost entirely barter. High technology that could be demonstrated Virus free would be most valuable, but that's also risky... Some worlds are going to want textiles or foods, etc.
>>>
>>> Abstract, but barter based on the trade codes is most likely for Free Traders post Collapse. Coalition and Regency fiat currency would be something new that could avoid direct manipulation from a hot or cold recovery.
>>>
>>> The 3I had the economic weight behind it to promote its canon plastic currency. I think Free Traders without established routes are mostly going to carry a large amount of cash with them and rely on X boat speeds to verify Letters of Credit from planetary/subsector banks. I could see a reputation based association "Credit Record" being propagated through the X boat network, possibly several competing ones based around and/or exclusive to the Megacorps... Some world be more restrictive in membership or gaining reputation but would offer greater limits while others might be more permissive wiry higher interest, etc
>>>
>>> ___
>>> From my T989
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing up a paper/credit currency in the wilds.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>>
>>> On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am not sure ...
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> From: Richard Crowley >
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>>>>
>>>> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
>>>> by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
>>>> subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
>>>> irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
>>>> hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
>>>> possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
>>>> the valuable substance).
>>>> --- In , "roger" wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
>>>> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
>>>> in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
>>>> transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
>>>> mail.
>>>> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
>>>> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
>>>> money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
>>>> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
>>>> would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
>>>> of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
>>>> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
>>>> Specie Currency.
>>>> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
>>>> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
>>>> and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
>>>> Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
>>>> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
>>>> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
>>>> Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
>>>> Coalition you have to except the money.
>>>> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
>>>> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
>>>> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
>>>> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
>>>> speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
>>>> > Roger
>>>> >
>
>

What I mean by "follow the money" is follow the forensic trail of the
money, as you indicate. And if it's not electronic, there is no trail to
follow.

> It wasn't so much I decided the players would become mercenary accountants
> sailing on the wide accountan sea. Its a matter that as a player we're
> trying to unravel a number of mysteries and it was decided to try and
> figure out who the inside man was by following the money. which lead to
> the quandary, how do you follow money that might be weeks or months away?
> Which further led to this discussion.
>
> The only reasonable solution is hard cash or everyone's their own bank,
> somehow.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On 2013-01-18, at 9:31, wrote:
>
>> Bottom line is that you'll want to figure out what kind of story you
>> want
>> to tell. And in Derek's case, if he's already decided he needs a "follow
>> the money" plot device, then it has to be electronic.
>

That's the whole point behind specie: the (arbitrary) premise that some
material is inherently valuable. Who cares if it imbalances the economy,
someone gets rich. And the economic effect of everyone else running out to
find stuff, and failing, but still needing to buy bullets, beans, and
bazookas still expands the economy. El Dorado does not damage the economy,
El Dorada is a flooding tide that raises all boats.

> This is why people go out into the wilds and do stupid things, to find the
> Holy Grail, City of Gold, Vault of Ancient Mysteries. Fortune and glory
> kid, fortune and glory.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On 2013-01-18, at 10:52, Master Uxi > wrote:
>
>> Not just currency, but think if a Free Trader finds an imperial era mine
>> out even better a refinery with a large store of gold, iridium, or
>> unobtanium...
>>
>> ___
>> From my T989
>> On Jan 18, 2013 10:49 AM, "DEREK STANLEY" > wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't imagine a billion dollars worth of Imperial Currency would be
>>> worth the plastic it's printed on in the wilds, they do make sparkly
>>> ear rings and sewn together you can make a nice water proof slicker out
>>> of the bills. Even in the Regency I imagine Imperial credits have been
>>> replaced with Regency credits just to prevent something like that
>>> happening.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>>
>>> On 2013-01-18, at 9:34, Master Uxi > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's difficult since anyone stumbling on an Imperial cache could
>>>> wildly destabilize any given economy. I'm thinking almost entirely
>>>> barter. High technology that could be demonstrated Virus free would be
>>>> most valuable, but that's also risky... Some worlds are going to want
>>>> textiles or foods, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Abstract, but barter based on the trade codes is most likely for Free
>>>> Traders post Collapse. Coalition and Regency fiat currency would be
>>>> something new that could avoid direct manipulation from a hot or cold
>>>> recovery.
>>>>
>>>> The 3I had the economic weight behind it to promote its canon plastic
>>>> currency. I think Free Traders without established routes are mostly
>>>> going to carry a large amount of cash with them and rely on X boat
>>>> speeds to verify Letters of Credit from planetary/subsector banks. I
>>>> could see a reputation based association "Credit Record" being
>>>> propagated through the X boat network, possibly several competing ones
>>>> based around and/or exclusive to the Megacorps... Some world be more
>>>> restrictive in membership or gaining reputation but would offer
>>>> greater limits while others might be more permissive wiry higher
>>>> interest, etc
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> From my T989
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to
>>>> use some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of
>>>> backing up a paper/credit currency in the wilds.
>>>>
>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>>>
>>>> On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some
>>>>> type ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its
>>>>> in ditto for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix
>>>>> could be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain
>>>>> types get certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as
>>>>> to quality, weight, and cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie?
>>>>> (spaceship, guy from super adv society checking the world out etc) I
>>>>> want to say Brave New World but am not sure ...
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Richard Crowley >
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>>>>>
>>>>> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think
>>>>> that
>>>>> by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to
>>>>> sponsor
>>>>> subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
>>>>> irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
>>>>> hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
>>>>> possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally
>>>>> extract
>>>>> the valuable substance).
>>>>> --- In , "roger" wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in
>>>>> a
>>>>> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out
>>>>> money
>>>>> in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money
>>>>> is
>>>>> transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to
>>>>> carry
>>>>> mail.
>>>>> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and
>>>>> coin
>>>>> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in
>>>>> the
>>>>> money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in
>>>>> any
>>>>> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
>>>>> would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page
>>>>> 230
>>>>> of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
>>>>> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
>>>>> Specie Currency.
>>>>> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
>>>>> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank
>>>>> reader
>>>>> and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver
>>>>> =
>>>>> Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
>>>>> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
>>>>> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
>>>>> Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining
>>>>> the
>>>>> Coalition you have to except the money.
>>>>> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will
>>>>> dominate
>>>>> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium =
>>>>> Cr
>>>>> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture
>>>>> of a
>>>>> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
>>>>> speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
>>>>> > Roger
>>>>> >
>>
>>
>

That was where in the problem leapt to mind without tons of time and large amounts of resources forensic auditing would be nearly impossible.

Our problems not nearly so complicated but without every crew members personal card there'd be no way of knowing if someone had received a lump sum payoff and it'd be even worse if the payoff was a paper bag full of cash.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 11:27, wrote:

> What I mean by "follow the money" is follow the forensic trail of the
> money, as you indicate. And if it's not electronic, there is no trail to
> follow.
>
> > It wasn't so much I decided the players would become mercenary accountants
> > sailing on the wide accountan sea. Its a matter that as a player we're
> > trying to unravel a number of mysteries and it was decided to try and
> > figure out who the inside man was by following the money. which lead to
> > the quandary, how do you follow money that might be weeks or months away?
> > Which further led to this discussion.
> >
> > The only reasonable solution is hard cash or everyone's their own bank,
> > somehow.
> >
> > Derek Stanley
> > Sent from my iPhone...
> >
> > On 2013-01-18, at 9:31, wrote:
> >
> >> Bottom line is that you'll want to figure out what kind of story you
> >> want
> >> to tell. And in Derek's case, if he's already decided he needs a "follow
> >> the money" plot device, then it has to be electronic.
> >
>
>

"*And if it's not electronic, there is no trail to follow.*", that is not
necessarily true. It depends on the amount/value and type of whatever
non-electronic means were used.

If it was 10,000 credits in cash then you are correct, it's too small to
leave a trail behind it.

If it was 100,000,000 credits in cash that's a different ball game. It's a
large physical amount of cash it requires some protection in the form of
people (and equipment), some of which may be hired locally meaning there
are witnesses that can be interviewed/bribed to tell what they overheard
but were not supposed to know. It may mean an armoured vehicle needs to be
used for transport, most likely locally sourced which leaves a trail. The
receiver needs to verify it isn't counterfeit which means some local
expertise is required, again witnesses to bribe/interview. Correspondingly
the receiver of the cash needs a certain amount of security once they get
the cash in hand. The money may have been laundered via a local crime
syndicate by the buyer to try and anonimise it, but that means witnesses to
track down from that angle too.

Unless the buyer met the seller in the starport, did the transaction in the
ship's airlock and immediately dusted off, then there is potential for
witnesses and paper/electronic/people trails of the transaction, or it's
supporting activities, that the players could use.

At least that's my 2 cents worth. If I was DMing the game and I wanted the
players to have to work for it instead of only needing to find a single
electronic transfer stub to give them all the answers, then I'd get them to
go through the different sources of info and let the picture of who, where
and why come together.

Maybe you could establish that the money is really sticky so that DNA
samples stick to it so you can track everyone's hand that it went through.

> "*And if it's not electronic, there is no trail to follow.*", that is not
> necessarily true. It depends on the amount/value and type of whatever
> non-electronic means were used.
>
> If it was 10,000 credits in cash then you are correct, it's too small to
> leave a trail behind it.
>
> If it was 100,000,000 credits in cash that's a different ball game. It's a
> large physical amount of cash it requires some protection in the form of
> people (and equipment), some of which may be hired locally meaning there
> are witnesses that can be interviewed/bribed to tell what they overheard
> but were not supposed to know. It may mean an armoured vehicle needs to be
> used for transport, most likely locally sourced which leaves a trail. The
> receiver needs to verify it isn't counterfeit which means some local
> expertise is required, again witnesses to bribe/interview. Correspondingly
> the receiver of the cash needs a certain amount of security once they get
> the cash in hand. The money may have been laundered via a local crime
> syndicate by the buyer to try and anonimise it, but that means witnesses
> to
> track down from that angle too.
>
> Unless the buyer met the seller in the starport, did the transaction in
> the
> ship's airlock and immediately dusted off, then there is potential for
> witnesses and paper/electronic/people trails of the transaction, or it's
> supporting activities, that the players could use.
>
> At least that's my 2 cents worth. If I was DMing the game and I wanted the
> players to have to work for it instead of only needing to find a single
> electronic transfer stub to give them all the answers, then I'd get them
> to
> go through the different sources of info and let the picture of who, where
> and why come together.
>

I will never touch cash again. Ick.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-18, at 12:55, wrote:

> Maybe you could establish that the money is really sticky so that DNA
> samples stick to it so you can track everyone's hand that it went through.

On 18 Jan 2013 at 13:21, roger wrote:

> I'm a little leery of Letters of Credit. I can see how it would be
> easy to use but it would still take time to verify that the person
> with the letter of credit is the person to whom it belongs to, the
> lag time to confirm the letter will still take weeks.

No, that's the whole *point* of Letters of Credit. You *don't* send
back to confirm them. You use *built-in* (and one use)
authentications.

An example using current tech would be to use a PGP signature on the
LOC to verify that it was from the bank it claims to be from and that
it was unaltered.

*Any* bank with the *public* key of the issuing bank can verify that
the LOC was "signed" with the *private* key of the issuing bank.

Verifying ownership can be handled similarly. If the bearer can't
"plug in" the right *private* key, the LOC won't verify as being to
him.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com

On 18 Jan 2013 at 9:36, DEREK STANLEY wrote:

> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to
> use some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of
> backing up a paper/credit currency in the wilds.

For places like the wilds, it's all effectively barter anyway.

You trade a cargo of X and commidities Y & Z for a cargo of W & V,
and get commodituy U as the "change".

("commodities" in the above would be stuff like precious metals,
gems, and low volume/mass but valuable items that are useful or
recognized as valuable pretty much anywhere)

Heck, even in *normal* areas, that's the way free traders operate,
except that they use money for the "filler" instead of the
"commodities".

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com

On 18 Jan 2013 at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly wrote:

> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some
> type ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form
> its in ditto for platinum, iridium etc.  But another addition to the
> mix could be gem stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain
> types get certain values - they last a long time, are verifiable as
> to quality, weight, and cut, etc etc ...

Alas, they, like cash, are a little *too* fungible. No way to prove
they are yours.

Letters of Credit have the advantage of being tied to a specific
person. If stolen, it's a *lot* hardesr for the thief to make use of
them.

> what was the 1950s movie?
> (spaceship, guy from super adv society checking the world out etc) I
> want to say Brave New World but am not sure ...

The Day the Earth Stood Still

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com

Currency in the New Era couldn't be backed by any resource because of the
risk of a large quantity showing up and causing hyperinflation (like what
happened to Spain at the height of its empire, iirc, with S. American gold
and silver).
On Jan 18, 2013 1:52 PM, "Master Uxi" > wrote:

> **
>
>
> Not just currency, but think if a Free Trader finds an imperial era mine
> out even better a refinery with a large store of gold, iridium, or
> unobtanium...
>
> ___
> From my T989
> On Jan 18, 2013 10:49 AM, "DEREK STANLEY" > wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> I don't imagine a billion dollars worth of Imperial Currency would be
>> worth the plastic it's printed on in the wilds, they do make sparkly ear
>> rings and sewn together you can make a nice water proof slicker out of the
>> bills. Even in the Regency I imagine Imperial credits have been replaced
>> with Regency credits just to prevent something like that happening.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>
>> On 2013-01-18, at 9:34, Master Uxi > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> That's difficult since anyone stumbling on an Imperial cache could wildly
>> destabilize any given economy. I'm thinking almost entirely barter. High
>> technology that could be demonstrated Virus free would be most valuable,
>> but that's also risky... Some worlds are going to want textiles or foods,
>> etc.
>>
>> Abstract, but barter based on the trade codes is most likely for Free
>> Traders post Collapse. Coalition and Regency fiat currency would be
>> something new that could avoid direct manipulation from a hot or cold
>> recovery.
>>
>> The 3I had the economic weight behind it to promote its canon plastic
>> currency. I think Free Traders without established routes are mostly going
>> to carry a large amount of cash with them and rely on X boat speeds to
>> verify Letters of Credit from planetary/subsector banks. I could see a
>> reputation based association "Credit Record" being propagated through the X
>> boat network, possibly several competing ones based around and/or exclusive
>> to the Megacorps... Some world be more restrictive in membership or gaining
>> reputation but would offer greater limits while others might be more
>> permissive wiry higher interest, etc
>>
>> ___
>> From my T989
>> **
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking in the case of free traders in the wilds you'd have to use
>> some kind of hard gold standard currency. You'd have no way of backing up a
>> paper/credit currency in the wilds.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>
>> On 2013-01-18, at 8:15, Tim O'Reilly > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> interesting discussion ... I'd suggest the specie currency of some type
>> ... a gram of gold is a gram of gold regardless of what form its in ditto
>> for platinum, iridium etc. But another addition to the mix could be gem
>> stones, certain quality gems, certain cuts, certain types get certain
>> values - they last a long time, are verifiable as to quality, weight, and
>> cut, etc etc ... what was the 1950s movie? (spaceship, guy from super adv
>> society checking the world out etc) I want to say Brave New World but am
>> not sure ...
>> Tim
>>
>> *From:* Richard Crowley >
>> *To:*
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 18, 2013 7:43 AM
>> *Subject:* [Traveller_TNE] Re: Money in Traveller
>> **
>>
>> What about currency with holographic images on them? Also, I think that
>> by 1240 (or so), the Coalition could have grown large enough to sponsor
>> subsidized merchant service to backward systems. The might solve the
>> irregularity of currency. Gold or other precious substances might be
>> hard to come by for small-time traders (they'd jhave to land on a
>> possibly xenophic world, begin a mining operation and finally extract
>> the valuable substance).
>> --- In ,
>> "roger" wrote:
>> >
>> > Derek, I found a site that makes sense out of the use of money in a
>> Traveller universe. Look in: Traveller in the DED Zone check out money
>> in the "House Rules" section. To this system you can add that money is
>> transferred around via X-boat and by ships that are qualified to carry
>> mail.
>> > I also believe that the Imperium would issue its own "paper" and coin
>> money. To make counterfeiting harder nanites could be embedded in the
>> money to authenticate it. This Imperium money would be acceptable in any
>> Imperium world. Many governments that do business with the Imperium
>> would except this money as well. Here I use exchange rates on page 230
>> of the rule book to exchange Imperials for/ from local money.
>> > I also found a reference to money in "Hard Times" from GDW called
>> Specie Currency.
>> > One of our group is a character who has reasons to not be tracked/
>> traced or found by the authorities so he has no wish for a bank reader
>> and prefers to be paid in hard coin Gold = Cr300 = 30 grams, Silver =
>> Cr10 = 30 grams, Copper = Cr0.2 = 50 grams.
>> > If you are playing in an RCES campaign,in the first paperback "The
>> death of Wisdom" there is a reference to Coalition credits so the
>> Coalition does issue money and I assume that to be a part of joining the
>> Coalition you have to except the money.
>> > In a post-collapse campaigns, barter and specie currency will dominate
>> economy. IMTU I've added (platinum = Cr1000 = 30 grams, and Iridium = Cr
>> 25,000 = 30 grams)to the specie currency list. To avoid the picture of a
>> hard working free trader walking down the street on his way to buy a
>> speculative cargo while pushing a wheelbarrow full of gold coins.
>> > Roger
>> >
>>
>> ****
>>
>>
>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:24:17 -0500, Axel > wrote:

>Currency in the New Era couldn't be backed by any resource because of the
>risk of a large quantity showing up and causing hyperinflation (like what
>happened to Spain at the height of its empire, iirc, with S. American gold
>and silver).

That's a bit oversimplified with respect to what happened to Spain; part
of the problem (but ONLY part) was that wealth was viewed as essentially
static, and only 'valuta39; - the concept of goods or services adding
wealth to a society or economy wasn't there; wealth was what you used to
buy the goods or services. The British and Dutch - and, in fact, most of
the other European states - 'got it' with respect to that a bit earlier,
and used any incoming 'valuta39; to invest in things like infrastructure,
trading ventures, shipbuilding, and so on that would have knock-on
effects for their economies, giving rise to the mercantile class and
what we would call 'middle-class labor'. That middle class never rose in
Spain because of their view of what wealth was, and that attitude got
exported to their colonial possessions.

(This has been discussed a bit in some of the "1632" conferences on
Baen's Bar.)

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource


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Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2009. Use of
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On 18 Jan 2013 at 13:29, wrote:

> That's the whole point behind specie: the (arbitrary) premise that some
> material is inherently valuable. Who cares if it imbalances the economy,
> someone gets rich. And the economic effect of everyone else running out to
> find stuff, and failing, but still needing to buy bullets, beans, and
> bazookas still expands the economy. El Dorado does not damage the economy,
> El Dorada is a flooding tide that raises all boats.

Ruining the economy is a lot more real than you may think. Look at
the long term effects of alll the gold from the New World on the
Spanish economy. It messed up Spain for centuries.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com

But remember that the RC is not primarily an economic or commercial entity
(unless you're one who makes the point that all human behavior is
ultimately economic, which is valid within its own frame of reference), it
is a historical/behavioral/evolutionary force working to jumpstart
humanity, and is itself a Hiver manipulation. Maybe. If you believe what
they tell you not to believe a little too enthusiastically so you can't
help but believe it.

But I'm not saying that the RC is based on specie, they ain't got none,
unless your specie is uninfected tech, in which case they are, and would
be vulnerable to such, but they would take it and use it to expand further
faster. The RC is not a stable economy, it is a short-lived transition
state, all underwritten on unsecured credit they can't repay, a launch
pad. It is not an end in itself, but the new beginning. Now the Regency
might get their panties in a twist over hyper-inflation and fiscal cliffs
and debt ceilings, but that's because they're former greed-head Imperials.
The RC has sectors to conquer and scores to settle. By the time the
collection agency knocks on the door they'll be morphed into something
else.

> On 18 Jan 2013 at 13:29, wrote:
>
>> That's the whole point behind specie: the (arbitrary) premise that some
>> material is inherently valuable. Who cares if it imbalances the economy,
>> someone gets rich. And the economic effect of everyone else running out
>> to
>> find stuff, and failing, but still needing to buy bullets, beans, and
>> bazookas still expands the economy. El Dorado does not damage the
>> economy,
>> El Dorada is a flooding tide that raises all boats.
>
> Ruining the economy is a lot more real than you may think. Look at
> the long term effects of alll the gold from the New World on the
> Spanish economy. It messed up Spain for centuries.
>
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> shadow at shadowgard dot com
>
>
>

What sort of time frame were you thinking and/out would you think now?

I had 2 more members in 1203 (Teldora and Nex) with passage of Ship Bill
and a couple in the AO moving that way for 1204 (I also had a couple back
face entries planned with Stepping Stone worlds, but that was all homebrew
and nothing overly hinted in official material). All smacks of US
Antebellum new statehoods: always in pairs so as not to upset the
balance.... Which of course can't last forever.

Though I imagine Black Curtain and Regency put the coming Coalition civil
war aside. It looks set up to tells the Centrists & Federalists they're
both right to some degree and to concentrate on common enemy....
Economically and policy wise, if not settling the F-tech business...
___
>From my T989
On Jan 18, 2013 8:46 PM, > wrote:

> **
>
>
> But remember that the RC is not primarily an economic or commercial entity
> (unless you're one who makes the point that all human behavior is
> ultimately economic, which is valid within its own frame of reference), it
> is a historical/behavioral/evolutionary force working to jumpstart
> humanity, and is itself a Hiver manipulation. Maybe. If you believe what
> they tell you not to believe a little too enthusiastically so you can't
> help but believe it.
>
> But I'm not saying that the RC is based on specie, they ain't got none,
> unless your specie is uninfected tech, in which case they are, and would
> be vulnerable to such, but they would take it and use it to expand further
> faster. The RC is not a stable economy, it is a short-lived transition
> state, all underwritten on unsecured credit they can't repay, a launch
> pad. It is not an end in itself, but the new beginning. Now the Regency
> might get their panties in a twist over hyper-inflation and fiscal cliffs
> and debt ceilings, but that's because they're former greed-head Imperials.
> The RC has sectors to conquer and scores to settle. By the time the
> collection agency knocks on the door they'll be morphed into something
> else.
>
> > On 18 Jan 2013 at 13:29, wrote:
> >
> >> That's the whole point behind specie: the (arbitrary) premise that some
> >> material is inherently valuable. Who cares if it imbalances the economy,
> >> someone gets rich. And the economic effect of everyone else running out
> >> to
> >> find stuff, and failing, but still needing to buy bullets, beans, and
> >> bazookas still expands the economy. El Dorado does not damage the
> >> economy,
> >> El Dorada is a flooding tide that raises all boats.
> >
> > Ruining the economy is a lot more real than you may think. Look at
> > the long term effects of alll the gold from the New World on the
> > Spanish economy. It messed up Spain for centuries.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> > shadow at shadowgard dot com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

That's hard to say, because general concepts would keep getting convoluted
or hijacked or co-opted by other things, such as production schedules,
other product lines, and things like Frank saying, "Oh, look, Solee,
they're going to kill the RC." At a certain point I'm sure we would have
had to fast-forward a few years rather than allowing it to play out in
"real time." To me, the "Star Vikings" were not so much a single polity
like the RC as a continuously reinforcing movement of like-minded groups
who were all looking outward, filling in the vacuum left by the collapse.

I think of the RC/SVs like a star evolving into a supernova: burning up
its fuel, having to burn ever heavier elements but unable to keep up core
pressure against gravitational collapse, and eventually exploding (and
imploding at the same time) and flinging all of this energy and material
out. The RC is never going to be able to sit back and build up a solid
industrial-population-economic base, it's just surrounded by too many
threats. It's constantly pushing outward, and in pushing outward just
keeps finding more threats that it has to overcome, but it can't lay back,
because there's not enough time to build up enough strength to withstand
everything and those threats will come kill it, so its only way to survive
is to just keep pushing out, finding one more resource or ally to keep
going to find one more threat and find another way past it. The RC is all
about deficit spending and living on credit. The same way that the most
important thing about a supernova is all of the metals that it creates and
spreads and how they become the stars and planets of the future, the most
important thing about the RC/SVs is their effect. Yeah, there will be a
core mass of some kind left behind, but it won't be the RC anymore. It
will be a white dwarf or a neutron star or a black hole. That's why all of
the little italicized things talk about the SVs in the past tense and a
mythological sense, because whatever it was, it changed the universe
(Charted Space), but it was never just one thing that could be put in a
box and categorized.

Certainly in 10 or 20 years their leading edge would span several sectors,
but behind that leading edge would not be a highly organized, stable
society, but a lot of varied stuff, like island hopping in the South
Pacific. You bypass Rabaul and Truk and beyond them find lots of people
and resources and remnants of things that can be cobbled together to get
to the next thing. You find Sandman and that helps you survive Solee, you
harvest the capabilities of the co-opted or liberated Solee to get the
next thing, and so on.

But we would have been much more driven by, "Next year we take you behind
the Black Curtain," "At GenCon you'll see the Regency meet the Star
Vikings" and so on. All of those cool promises were going to have to be
delivered on rather sooner than later. The Centrist and Federalist stuff
was great, and we could have spent a lot of time dealing with that stuff,
but I just don't think we would have ever been able to linger there for
long. And what happened to us demonstrates exactly the sort of thing I'm
talking about, we weren't able to.

And that's not to say that RC politics was just meaningless wallpaper or
set dressing, but that Lord of the Rings was only one (minor) story in
Middle Earth, it's just the one that Tolkien's publishers pushed him to
write and finish. Since Tolkien had a day job, he could have tinkered with
the Silmarilion for the rest of his life. But if he had a company to run,
he would have had to find a way to meet payroll every month. Like comic
books. You used to be able to go 10 or 20 years between a Crisis on
Infinite Earths, but now they have to happen every year. And games and
comic books were sold by the same people. And that goes back to the whole
"Old School Gamer" thing that says anything plot-driven is evil, but I
don't think you're ever going to build an audience that can keep you in
business if you're not telling a story, or else you have to have a day
job. There are only so many people who want to buy FF&S 2, FF&S 3, FF&S 4
and nothing else. If it were easy, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg would
be working for Marc.

But to get back nearer your question, Centrists and Federalists and ship
bills would have been overshadowed by much larger events, as much as it
would have been fun to devote concentrated attention to them. It doesn't
matter if you're a Redskins or a Cowboys fan once the aliens invade. I
like your idea about admitting worlds in pairs. But then the US from
1814-1864 (hell, 1950 if you think about it) was living in a pretty benign
environment.

I'm sure I've said all this before, and I wandered around plenty. I repeat
myself a lot, and think everything relates to everything else.

> What sort of time frame were you thinking and/out would you think now?
>
> I had 2 more members in 1203 (Teldora and Nex) with passage of Ship Bill
and a couple in the AO moving that way for 1204 (I also had a couple back
> face entries planned with Stepping Stone worlds, but that was all
homebrew
> and nothing overly hinted in official material). All smacks of US
Antebellum new statehoods: always in pairs so as not to upset the
balance.... Which of course can't last forever.
>
> Though I imagine Black Curtain and Regency put the coming Coalition
civil
> war aside. It looks set up to tells the Centrists & Federalists they're
both right to some degree and to concentrate on common enemy....
Economically and policy wise, if not settling the F-tech business... ___
> From my T989
> On Jan 18, 2013 8:46 PM, > wrote:
>
>> **
>> But remember that the RC is not primarily an economic or commercial
entity
>> (unless you're one who makes the point that all human behavior is
ultimately economic, which is valid within its own frame of reference), it
>> is a historical/behavioral/evolutionary force working to jumpstart
humanity, and is itself a Hiver manipulation. Maybe. If you believe what
>> they tell you not to believe a little too enthusiastically so you can't
help but believe it.
>> But I'm not saying that the RC is based on specie, they ain't got none,
unless your specie is uninfected tech, in which case they are, and would
>> be vulnerable to such, but they would take it and use it to expand
further
>> faster. The RC is not a stable economy, it is a short-lived transition
state, all underwritten on unsecured credit they can't repay, a launch
pad. It is not an end in itself, but the new beginning. Now the Regency
might get their panties in a twist over hyper-inflation and fiscal cliffs
>> and debt ceilings, but that's because they're former greed-head
Imperials.
>> The RC has sectors to conquer and scores to settle. By the time the
collection agency knocks on the door they'll be morphed into something else.
>> > On 18 Jan 2013 at 13:29, wrote:
>> >
>> >> That's the whole point behind specie: the (arbitrary) premise that
>> some
>> >> material is inherently valuable. Who cares if it imbalances the
>> economy,
>> >> someone gets rich. And the economic effect of everyone else running
>> out
>> >> to
>> >> find stuff, and failing, but still needing to buy bullets, beans,
and
>> >> bazookas still expands the economy. El Dorado does not damage the
economy,
>> >> El Dorada is a flooding tide that raises all boats.
>> >
>> > Ruining the economy is a lot more real than you may think. Look at
the long term effects of alll the gold from the New World on the
Spanish economy. It messed up Spain for centuries.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
>> > shadow at shadowgard dot com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>

Now that was an interesting tangent Dave. Maybe you have said that before, but I haven't read it. I'm looking at the RC in a whole new way now. Thanks!

-Wayne

> I'm sure I've said all this before, and I wandered around plenty. I repeat myself a lot, and think everything relates to everything else.

You're welcome. Towards the end, I realized that I didn't want to add one
more undisciplined discursion, but was thinking that the storyline is also
like a piece of instrumental or orchestral music, where you know what the
story and its meaning are, you know the beginning, the middle and the end,
but the lyrics, the specific names of the people, places, dates, and times
haven't been written in yet, and although you know the role they will play
(whoever they end up being), they can be filled in by any listener (GM,
player). We've all listened to the same symphony or whatever, and know its
meaning, but we each get to populate it with characters and events in our
hearts and minds, the sound track to our own personal science fiction
movies. And don't tell me you haven't produced and directed great movies
in your own mind, you all have. :-)

See why I didn't include that? It still sounds pretentious and
vainglorious. Darn, maybe someday I'll die.

> Now that was an interesting tangent Dave. Maybe you have said that before,
> but I haven't read it. I'm looking at the RC in a whole new way now.
> Thanks!
>
> -Wayne
>
>> I'm sure I've said all this before, and I wandered around plenty. I
>> repeat myself a lot, and think everything relates to everything else.
>
>
>
>

--- In , "waynes_books" wrote:
>
> Now that was an interesting tangent Dave. Maybe you have said that before, but I haven't read it. I'm looking at the RC in a whole new way now. Thanks!
>
> -Wayne
>

I've been quiet but steadily reading the posts. I am loving your insights and thoughts into the RC and the traveler universe in general Dave. Please keep it up!

Matt

I have to say I like the metaphor of a white hot star burning to bright to sustain itself and eventually spreading its remains across the universe like seeds scattered in the winds.


Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

On 2013-01-19, at 6:24, "waynes_books" > wrote:

> Now that was an interesting tangent Dave. Maybe you have said that before, but I haven't read it. I'm looking at the RC in a whole new way now. Thanks!
>
> -Wayne
>
> > I'm sure I've said all this before, and I wandered around plenty. I repeat myself a lot, and think everything relates to everything else.
>
>