Thread: Re: Norris (was RE: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Armor XXI--> Planetary Envir

For an unknown reason all women playing Traveller with me (as a player or referee) after looking through the pictures in the books took names like Samantha Fox, Sandra, Sabrina etc. and not only because of the perm.

Probably they all like the letter “S”.

Blase

War is too serious matter to be entrusted to the military

Georges Clemenceau(1841 - 1929)

From: [] On Behalf Of
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:40 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Norris (was RE: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Armor XXI--> Planetary Environments part 2)

I always thought it was because of his bad haircut. It always made him
sullen and quick to take offense.

More like Borg crossed with UAVs. Real K'kree, but manufactured/modified
at an early age to add bio-mechanical integral communications, combat drug
injectors, and command/control/communications gear, including operant and
classical conditioning modules to force them to do things against their
nature, like cram into cramped troop transports for long periods. The
armor that you see on them (in the TNE t-shirts, maybe other stuff since
then) is not permanent, but put on before battle, but there are permanent,
surgically implanted attachment points for the armor on their hips and
shoulder girdles. So while they are "real" K'kree beneath the behavior
control, they can be forced to do lots of things like charge and fight to
the last man beyond what they would normally do. But if you were able to
jam the tactical net you could degrade the control circuits and allow them
to behave more naturally. They don't have an actual virus personality
resident in each one, but are commanded/controlled remotely by vampire
control systems.

Weapons would be basically anything they can carry, but given their mass,
they would lean toward heavy autocannon, grenade launchers, plasma and
fusion weapons. Each K'kree would typically have one major weapon on each
side, attached to the shoulder girdle on either side, and could add
weapons in their hands. These weapons would be like the Aliens "smart
gun," aimed by HUDs inside of the faired-in helmet. The weapons would not
be like Borg where they replace the hands, because hands are too useful to
be used for flexible tasks.

There would also be specialized K'kree "biotanks," like Engineer vehicles,
self-propelled artillery, missile launchers, and some which might carry a
tactical operations center which would house an actual virus/vampire
personality. In that case maybe there is more direct virus/vampire control
over the brain and central nervous system, but not necessarily.

They are used as Lucan's Vampire Army shock troops because they already
have a native, intelligent ability to fight well, are large, with a great
load-carrying capability for armor and weapons, but that can be "enhanced"
by the ability to control them more directly in tactical situations. Their
masters would also attempt to manipulate their concious minds by showing
them whatever kind of motivating propaganda they can come up with to make
them hate their enemies, trying to blame them for the K'kree's slavery.
"If you kill them, you can finally be free."

So these K'kree are tragic figures, all the more so, since the free K'kree
outside the curtain will hate them for what they have become and wish to
exterminate them for this travesty against K'kree values. Within the
enslaved K'kree, there would be an oral tradition, coming from captured
free K'kree impressed into the Robo-K'kree forces, to pass on and keep
alive true K'kree culture among the robo-K'kree, so there would be a kind
of K'kree underground within the ranks, or rumors of it.

The Ithklur, although renowned as K'kree fighters, will rapidly develop
compassion for them, as the robo-K'kree are the perfect example of a
formerly free people turned into twisted, tortured slaves. The Ithklur
will not get a lot of satisfaction out of battling their old nemesis this
way. The Ithklur enjoy fighting opponents who are strong enemies, and who
hate the Ithklur as much as the Ithklur hate them, but that's not what's
going on here. These K'kree are fighting because they are forced, and to
Ithklur that invokes more compassion than righteous warrior spirit. This
compassion will manifest itself in two predominant ways: killing the poor,
tortured K'kree as swiftly as possible, putting them out of their misery,
and after battle, stripping them of all their gear so that they can at
least be "free" in death. (Think of the pasty, bruised complexion of
Picard after being de-borged, or Darth Vader at the end of Return of the
Jedi, with their fur all worn off in patches beneath the armor.) There
would be, time permitting, a story where a group of Ithklur, moved by this
compassion, attempt to liberate a unit of K'kree and free them from their
vampire control. This would be early in the robo-K'kree-Ithklur contact,
so these pen-raised K'kree won't even know who the Ithklur are and they're
supposed to hate them, so they could make some common cause and fight as a
combined unit, freeing more robo-K'kree and becoming a force-multiplier
for the RC ground troops, as they can tap into the robo-K'kree tactical
net. So one of the ironies of the Black Curtain fighting would be Ithklur
and de-borged K'kree as comrades in arms, which could eventually feed into
an entree for improved Ithklur-K'kree relations after the war, or at least
result in a group of K'kree survivors that are not accepted by the free
K'kree, but are allies of the Ithklur. Unfortunately, the K'kree
underground within the robo-K'kree would remember the Ithklur as
traditional enemies, so there would be conflict here between K'kree who
want to free their own people and K'kree being freed by outsiders.

> So tell us about the K'kree when they boil out from behind the Black
> Curtain. How did you guys envisage them? Are they still K'kree? Are they
> robots? Are they Borg? How many of them are there? What weapons do they
> have?
>
> --- In , dcndcn13@... wrote:
>>
>> No worries. I just threw that, "at GDW" bit in there because I have been
>> asked that question several times before. I'm here to share and bore
>> people, so I have to keep up my sharing and boring people.
>>
>
>
>

Also, the robo-K'kree would not only be deployed as pure robo-K'kree units
(I had a name for these things based on the shape of their armor,
something like beetles or cockroaches), but also as ersatz AFVs supporting
infantry of other Lucan Vampire subject races.

> More like Borg crossed with UAVs. Real K'kree, but manufactured/modified
> at an early age to add bio-mechanical integral communications, combat drug
> injectors, and command/control/communications gear, including operant and
> classical conditioning modules to force them to do things against their
> nature, like cram into cramped troop transports for long periods. The
> armor that you see on them (in the TNE t-shirts, maybe other stuff since
> then) is not permanent, but put on before battle, but there are permanent,
> surgically implanted attachment points for the armor on their hips and
> shoulder girdles. So while they are "real" K'kree beneath the behavior
> control, they can be forced to do lots of things like charge and fight to
> the last man beyond what they would normally do. But if you were able to
> jam the tactical net you could degrade the control circuits and allow them
> to behave more naturally. They don't have an actual virus personality
> resident in each one, but are commanded/controlled remotely by vampire
> control systems.
>
> Weapons would be basically anything they can carry, but given their mass,
> they would lean toward heavy autocannon, grenade launchers, plasma and
> fusion weapons. Each K'kree would typically have one major weapon on each
> side, attached to the shoulder girdle on either side, and could add
> weapons in their hands. These weapons would be like the Aliens "smart
> gun," aimed by HUDs inside of the faired-in helmet. The weapons would not
> be like Borg where they replace the hands, because hands are too useful to
> be used for flexible tasks.
>
> There would also be specialized K'kree "biotanks," like Engineer vehicles,
> self-propelled artillery, missile launchers, and some which might carry a
> tactical operations center which would house an actual virus/vampire
> personality. In that case maybe there is more direct virus/vampire control
> over the brain and central nervous system, but not necessarily.
>
> They are used as Lucan's Vampire Army shock troops because they already
> have a native, intelligent ability to fight well, are large, with a great
> load-carrying capability for armor and weapons, but that can be "enhanced"
> by the ability to control them more directly in tactical situations. Their
> masters would also attempt to manipulate their concious minds by showing
> them whatever kind of motivating propaganda they can come up with to make
> them hate their enemies, trying to blame them for the K'kree's slavery.
> "If you kill them, you can finally be free."
>
> So these K'kree are tragic figures, all the more so, since the free K'kree
> outside the curtain will hate them for what they have become and wish to
> exterminate them for this travesty against K'kree values. Within the
> enslaved K'kree, there would be an oral tradition, coming from captured
> free K'kree impressed into the Robo-K'kree forces, to pass on and keep
> alive true K'kree culture among the robo-K'kree, so there would be a kind
> of K'kree underground within the ranks, or rumors of it.
>
> The Ithklur, although renowned as K'kree fighters, will rapidly develop
> compassion for them, as the robo-K'kree are the perfect example of a
> formerly free people turned into twisted, tortured slaves. The Ithklur
> will not get a lot of satisfaction out of battling their old nemesis this
> way. The Ithklur enjoy fighting opponents who are strong enemies, and who
> hate the Ithklur as much as the Ithklur hate them, but that's not what's
> going on here. These K'kree are fighting because they are forced, and to
> Ithklur that invokes more compassion than righteous warrior spirit. This
> compassion will manifest itself in two predominant ways: killing the poor,
> tortured K'kree as swiftly as possible, putting them out of their misery,
> and after battle, stripping them of all their gear so that they can at
> least be "free" in death. (Think of the pasty, bruised complexion of
> Picard after being de-borged, or Darth Vader at the end of Return of the
> Jedi, with their fur all worn off in patches beneath the armor.) There
> would be, time permitting, a story where a group of Ithklur, moved by this
> compassion, attempt to liberate a unit of K'kree and free them from their
> vampire control. This would be early in the robo-K'kree-Ithklur contact,
> so these pen-raised K'kree won't even know who the Ithklur are and they're
> supposed to hate them, so they could make some common cause and fight as a
> combined unit, freeing more robo-K'kree and becoming a force-multiplier
> for the RC ground troops, as they can tap into the robo-K'kree tactical
> net. So one of the ironies of the Black Curtain fighting would be Ithklur
> and de-borged K'kree as comrades in arms, which could eventually feed into
> an entree for improved Ithklur-K'kree relations after the war, or at least
> result in a group of K'kree survivors that are not accepted by the free
> K'kree, but are allies of the Ithklur. Unfortunately, the K'kree
> underground within the robo-K'kree would remember the Ithklur as
> traditional enemies, so there would be conflict here between K'kree who
> want to free their own people and K'kree being freed by outsiders.
>
>> So tell us about the K'kree when they boil out from behind the Black
>> Curtain. How did you guys envisage them? Are they still K'kree? Are
>> they
>> robots? Are they Borg? How many of them are there? What weapons do
>> they
>> have?
>>
>> --- In , dcndcn13@... wrote:
>>>
>>> No worries. I just threw that, "at GDW" bit in there because I have
>>> been
>>> asked that question several times before. I'm here to share and bore
>>> people, so I have to keep up my sharing and boring people.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

sounds awesome!
Were you thinking to have their Viral commanders making use of
meta identity?
Unique Viral strains in the ruins of the Two Thousand Worlds
come to mind, too, but probably a separate enchilada, since these
robo-centaurs would be part of the pre collapse invasion force

---
from my T989

wrote:


Also, the robo-K'kree would not only be deployed as pure
robo-K'kree units
(I had a name for these things based on the shape of their armor,
something like beetles or cockroaches), but also as ersatz AFVs
supporting
infantry of other Lucan Vampire subject races.

> More like Borg crossed with UAVs. Real K'kree, but
manufactured/modified
> at an early age to add bio-mechanical integral communications,
combat drug
> injectors, and command/control/communications gear, including
operant and
> classical conditioning modules to force them to do things
against their
> nature, like cram into cramped troop transports for long
periods. The
> armor that you see on them (in the TNE t-shirts, maybe other
stuff since
> then) is not permanent, but put on before battle, but there are
permanent,
> surgically implanted attachment points for the armor on their
hips and
> shoulder girdles. So while they are "real" K'kree beneath the
behavior
> control, they can be forced to do lots of things like charge
and fight to
> the last man beyond what they would normally do. But if you
were able to
> jam the tactical net you could degrade the control circuits and
allow them
> to behave more naturally. They don't have an actual virus
personality
> resident in each one, but are commanded/controlled remotely by
vampire
> control systems.
>
> Weapons would be basically anything they can carry, but given
their mass,
> they would lean toward heavy autocannon, grenade launchers,
plasma and
> fusion weapons. Each K'kree would typically have one major
weapon on each
> side, attached to the shoulder girdle on either side, and could
add
> weapons in their hands. These weapons would be like the Aliens
"smart
> gun," aimed by HUDs inside of the faired-in helmet. The weapons
would not
> be like Borg where they replace the hands, because hands are
too useful to
> be used for flexible tasks.
>
> There would also be specialized K'kree "biotanks," like
Engineer vehicles,
> self-propelled artillery, missile launchers, and some which
might carry a
> tactical operations center which would house an actual
virus/vampire
> personality. In that case maybe there is more direct
virus/vampire control
> over the brain and central nervous system, but not necessarily.
>
> They are used as Lucan's Vampire Army shock troops because they
already
> have a native, intelligent ability to fight well, are large,
with a great
> load-carrying capability for armor and weapons, but that can be
"enhanced"
> by the ability to control them more directly in tactical
situations. Their
> masters would also attempt to manipulate their concious minds
by showing
> them whatever kind of motivating propaganda they can come up
with to make
> them hate their enemies, trying to blame them for the K'kree's
slavery.
> "If you kill them, you can finally be free."
>
> So these K'kree are tragic figures, all the more so, since the
free K'kree
> outside the curtain will hate them for what they have become
and wish to
> exterminate them for this travesty against K'kree values.
Within the
> enslaved K'kree, there would be an oral tradition, coming from
captured
> free K'kree impressed into the Robo-K'kree forces, to pass on
and keep
> alive true K'kree culture among the robo-K'kree, so there would
be a kind
> of K'kree underground within the ranks, or rumors of it.
>
> The Ithklur, although renowned as K'kree fighters, will rapidly
develop
> compassion for them, as the robo-K'kree are the perfect example
of a
> formerly free people turned into twisted, tortured slaves. The
Ithklur
> will not get a lot of satisfaction out of battling their old
nemesis this
> way. The Ithklur enjoy fighting opponents who are strong
enemies, and who
> hate the Ithklur as much as the Ithklur hate them, but that's
not what's
> going on here. These K'kree are fighting because they are
forced, and to
> Ithklur that invokes more compassion than righteous warrior
spirit. This
> compassion will manifest itself in two predominant ways:
killing the poor,
> tortured K'kree as swiftly as possible, putting them out of
their misery,
> and after battle, stripping them of all their gear so that they
can at
> least be "free" in death. (Think of the pasty, bruised
complexion of
> Picard after being de-borged, or Darth Vader at the end of
Return of the
> Jedi, with their fur all worn off in patches beneath the
armor.) There
> would be, time permitting, a story where a group of Ithklur,
moved by this
> compassion, attempt to liberate a unit of K'kree and free them
from their
> vampire control. This would be early in the robo-K'kree-Ithklur
contact,
> so these pen-raised K'kree won't even know who the Ithklur are
and they're
> supposed to hate them, so they could make some common cause and
fight as a
> combined unit, freeing more robo-K'kree and becoming a
force-multiplier
> for the RC ground troops, as they can tap into the robo-K'kree
tactical
> net. So one of the ironies of the Black Curtain fighting would
be Ithklur
> and de-borged K'kree as comrades in arms, which could
eventually feed into
> an entree for improved Ithklur-K'kree relations after the war,
or at least
> result in a group of K'kree survivors that are not accepted by
the free
> K'kree, but are allies of the Ithklur. Unfortunately, the
K'kree
> underground within the robo-K'kree would remember the Ithklur
as
> traditional enemies, so there would be conflict here between
K'kree who
> want to free their own people and K'kree being freed by
outsiders.
>
>> So tell us about the K'kree when they boil out from behind the
Black
>> Curtain. How did you guys envisage them? Are they still
K'kree? Are
>> they
>> robots? Are they Borg? How many of them are there? What
weapons do
>> they
>> have?
>>
>> --- In
<> , dcndcn13@... wrote:
>>>
>>> No worries. I just threw that, "at GDW" bit in there because
I have
>>> been
>>> asked that question several times before. I'm here to share
and bore
>>> people, so I have to keep up my sharing and boring people.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Thank you, sir!

You mean meta identity going into some of the robo-K'kree, or moving
between sites from which they were commanding them? Certainly the latter
would be a mode. Within the Dark Curtain, meta-identity would be common
practice, so that would happen regularly. So when the robo-K'kree start
dying, the Viral commander can say, "Sorry, must dash," transfer to an
orbiting ship, and get outta there.

Yes, the viral strains within the Black Curtain would be different from
the viral strains in the collapsed 2000 Worlds because of their separate
evolution. In the Black Curtain, the virus strains there had much more
concentrated "raw materials" in terms of the vampire ships streaming in,
which would produce more concentrated evolution and innovation.

> sounds awesome!

> Were you thinking to have their Viral commanders making use of meta
identity?

> Unique Viral strains in the ruins of the Two Thousand Worlds come to
mind, too, but probably a separate enchilada, since these robo-centaurs
would be part of the pre collapse invasion force

> ---
> from my T989

>> wrote:

>> Also, the robo-K'kree would not only be deployed as pure robo-K'kree units
>> (I had a name for these things based on the shape of their armor,
>> something like beetles or cockroaches), but also as ersatz AFVs supporting
>> infantry of other Lucan Vampire subject races.

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> Subject: Re: Norris (was RE: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Armor XXI--> Planetary
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> <p><div>sounds awesome!</div><div><br></div><div>Were you thinking
> to have their Viral commanders making use of meta
> identity?</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;Unique Viral strains in the
> ruins of the Two Thousand Worlds come to mind, too, but probably a
> separate enchilada, since these robo-centaurs would be part of the
> pre collapse invasion
> force</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div
> style="font-size:100%;">---<br>from my T989</div></div>
> <br><br> wrote:<br><br>
> <span>&nbsp;</span>
>
>
>
> <div id="ygrp-text">
>
>
> <p>Also, the robo-K'kree would not only be deployed as pure
> robo-K'kree units<br>
> (I had a name for these things based on the shape of their armor,<br>
> something like beetles or cockroaches), but also as ersatz AFVs
> supporting<br>
> infantry of other Lucan Vampire subject races.<br>
> <br>
> &gt; More like Borg crossed with UAVs. Real K'kree, but
> manufactured/modified<br>
> &gt; at an early age to add bio-mechanical integral communications, combat
> drug<br>
> &gt; injectors, and command/control/communications gear, including operant
> and<br>
> &gt; classical conditioning modules to force them to do things against
> their<br>
> &gt; nature, like cram into cramped troop transports for long periods.
> The<br>
> &gt; armor that you see on them (in the TNE t-shirts, maybe other stuff
> since<br>
> &gt; then) is not permanent, but put on before battle, but there are
> permanent,<br>
> &gt; surgically implanted attachment points for the armor on their hips
> and<br>
> &gt; shoulder girdles. So while they are "real" K'kree beneath the
> behavior<br>
> &gt; control, they can be forced to do lots of things like charge and
> fight to<br>
> &gt; the last man beyond what they would normally do. But if you were able
> to<br>
> &gt; jam the tactical net you could degrade the control circuits and allow
> them<br>
> &gt; to behave more naturally. They don't have an actual virus
> personality<br>
> &gt; resident in each one, but are commanded/controlled remotely by
> vampire<br>
> &gt; control systems.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; Weapons would be basically anything they can carry, but given their
> mass,<br>
> &gt; they would lean toward heavy autocannon, grenade launchers, plasma
> and<br>
> &gt; fusion weapons. Each K'kree would typically have one major weapon on
> each<br>
> &gt; side, attached to the shoulder girdle on either side, and could
> add<br>
> &gt; weapons in their hands. These weapons would be like the Aliens
> "smart<br>
> &gt; gun," aimed by HUDs inside of the faired-in helmet. The weapons would
> not<br>
> &gt; be like Borg where they replace the hands, because hands are too
> useful to<br>
> &gt; be used for flexible tasks.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; There would also be specialized K'kree "biotanks," like Engineer
> vehicles,<br>
> &gt; self-propelled artillery, missile launchers, and some which might
> carry a<br>
> &gt; tactical operations center which would house an actual
> virus/vampire<br>
> &gt; personality. In that case maybe there is more direct virus/vampire
> control<br>
> &gt; over the brain and central nervous system, but not necessarily.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; They are used as Lucan's Vampire Army shock troops because they
> already<br>
> &gt; have a native, intelligent ability to fight well, are large, with a
> great<br>
> &gt; load-carrying capability for armor and weapons, but that can be
> "enhanced"<br>
> &gt; by the ability to control them more directly in tactical situations.
> Their<br>
> &gt; masters would also attempt to manipulate their concious minds by
> showing<br>
> &gt; them whatever kind of motivating propaganda they can come up with to
> make<br>
> &gt; them hate their enemies, trying to blame them for the K'kree's
> slavery.<br>
> &gt; "If you kill them, you can finally be free."<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; So these K'kree are tragic figures, all the more so, since the free
> K'kree<br>
> &gt; outside the curtain will hate them for what they have become and wish
> to<br>
> &gt; exterminate them for this travesty against K'kree values. Within
> the<br>
> &gt; enslaved K'kree, there would be an oral tradition, coming from
> captured<br>
> &gt; free K'kree impressed into the Robo-K'kree forces, to pass on and
> keep<br>
> &gt; alive true K'kree culture among the robo-K'kree, so there would be a
> kind<br>
> &gt; of K'kree underground within the ranks, or rumors of it.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; The Ithklur, although renowned as K'kree fighters, will rapidly
> develop<br>
> &gt; compassion for them, as the robo-K'kree are the perfect example of
> a<br>
> &gt; formerly free people turned into twisted, tortured slaves. The
> Ithklur<br>
> &gt; will not get a lot of satisfaction out of battling their old nemesis
> this<br>
> &gt; way. The Ithklur enjoy fighting opponents who are strong enemies, and
> who<br>
> &gt; hate the Ithklur as much as the Ithklur hate them, but that's not
> what's<br>
> &gt; going on here. These K'kree are fighting because they are forced, and
> to<br>
> &gt; Ithklur that invokes more compassion than righteous warrior spirit.
> This<br>
> &gt; compassion will manifest itself in two predominant ways: killing the
> poor,<br>
> &gt; tortured K'kree as swiftly as possible, putting them out of their
> misery,<br>
> &gt; and after battle, stripping them of all their gear so that they can
> at<br>
> &gt; least be "free" in death. (Think of the pasty, bruised complexion
> of<br>
> &gt; Picard after being de-borged, or Darth Vader at the end of Return of
> the<br>
> &gt; Jedi, with their fur all worn off in patches beneath the armor.)
> There<br>
> &gt; would be, time permitting, a story where a group of Ithklur, moved by
> this<br>
> &gt; compassion, attempt to liberate a unit of K'kree and free them from
> their<br>
> &gt; vampire control. This would be early in the robo-K'kree-Ithklur
> contact,<br>
> &gt; so these pen-raised K'kree won't even know who the Ithklur are and
> they're<br>
> &gt; supposed to hate them, so they could make some common cause and fight
> as a<br>
> &gt; combined unit, freeing more robo-K'kree and becoming a
> force-multiplier<br>
> &gt; for the RC ground troops, as they can tap into the robo-K'kree
> tactical<br>
> &gt; net. So one of the ironies of the Black Curtain fighting would be
> Ithklur<br>
> &gt; and de-borged K'kree as comrades in arms, which could eventually feed
> into<br>
> &gt; an entree for improved Ithklur-K'kree relations after the war, or at
> least<br>
> &gt; result in a group of K'kree survivors that are not accepted by the
> free<br>
> &gt; K'kree, but are allies of the Ithklur. Unfortunately, the K'kree<br>
> &gt; underground within the robo-K'kree would remember the Ithklur as<br>
> &gt; traditional enemies, so there would be conflict here between K'kree
> who<br>
> &gt; want to free their own people and K'kree being freed by
> outsiders.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt; So tell us about the K'kree when they boil out from behind the
> Black<br>
> &gt;&gt; Curtain. How did you guys envisage them? Are they still K'kree?
> Are<br>
> &gt;&gt; they<br>
> &gt;&gt; robots? Are they Borg? How many of them are there? What weapons
> do<br>
> &gt;&gt; they<br>
> &gt;&gt; have?<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt; --- In <a
> href=""></a>,
> dcndcn13@... wrote:<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; No worries. I just threw that, "at GDW" bit in there because
> I have<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; been<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; asked that question several times before. I'm here to share
> and bore<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt; people, so I have to keep up my sharing and boring
> people.<br>
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;<br>
> <br>
> </p>
>
> </div>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <!-- end group email -->
>
> </p>
>
> </div>
>
>
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> #

Tonight I started reading this thread wanting go find which box I stashed
the makings for my Hiver Puppet Head, but slowly that morphed into "So
wanting Borged out K'Kree Miniatures" for tabletop mayhem...

Or forget your puny Space Orks, K'Kree are the true bad juju on the SF
battlefield...

--
Evyn

Eamon--

That's a yes and no.

Your intuition is correct insofar as Lucan had a great deal to do with
creation of Virus, and he ended up being himself much transformed by Virus
(in my head, more Alien queen than Borg queen), so if you see that, it is
not inappropriate.

However, for the art itself, that was done by Brad McDevitt based on Kirk
Wescom's design on the t-shirt. If Kirk or Brad had Lucan in mind when
they did that, I don't know. My guess would be not, as neither of them
were that steeped in the Traveller "who shot John?" personalities.

Dave

> That reminded me of a question that I've long had on my mind - the Viral
> Entity(?) on the cover of Vampire Fleets always seemed to resemble Lucan
> to me, any truth behind my fanboy's intuition?
>
>
> Eamon
> ________________________________
>>From: "" <>
>
>><SNIP>They are used as Lucan's Vampire Army shock troops because they
>> already
> have a native, intelligent ability to fight well, </SNIP>
>
>

Well, even if you weren't correct in detail, you were correct in
aggregate. People say everything happens for a reason and there are no
coincidences. Sometimes those people are correct.

> Darn, so even my semi-rationalist mind sees images where there are none.

And, by the way, "seeing images where there are none" is EXACTLY what
makes us what we are. Especially in Traveller, Hivers, Ithklur, etc.

>
>
> Eamon
>
>>From: "" <>
>
>>Eamon--
>
>>That's a yes and no.
>
> <SNIP>

That makes sense. I also remember deliberately staying away from too much
speculation about people in the Traveller universe have implanted
cyberware because there was so much cyberpunk going on at the time.
Traveller didn't need to become just one more cyberpunk game.

And now the Internet has sidelined cyberpunk as another unanticipated way
that the way technology plays out doesn't fit our assumptions. Now
everyone is hackers instead of jackers.

> From memory the TL15 Cyber computer implant can hold a full virus. A
> possible vector to take over Lucan and anyone else who had one of these.
> Talk about hearing voices in the head...
>
> Antony
>

I think that's still the ultimate endpoint in terms of UI. After
holo, holodynamic, etc. why bother with screens much other less
efficient I/O?

---
from my T989

wrote:


That makes sense. I also remember deliberately staying away from
too much
speculation about people in the Traveller universe have implanted
cyberware because there was so much cyberpunk going on at the
time.
Traveller didn't need to become just one more cyberpunk game.

And now the Internet has sidelined cyberpunk as another
unanticipated way
that the way technology plays out doesn't fit our assumptions.
Now
everyone is hackers instead of jackers.

> From memory the TL15 Cyber computer implant can hold a full
virus. A
> possible vector to take over Lucan and anyone else who had one
of these.
> Talk about hearing voices in the head...
>
> Antony
>

Honestly 'neural' interfaces doesn't have to be via implanted cyberware.
Today's medical technology can reproduce specific reactions in a subject.

So at TL 15 (or whatever technology level you feel like) you can build a
workstation that hte crew member simply leans back into and the head simply
has data projected into it. And backup systems use manual manipulation
incase the computer neural machinery gives out.

In a Traveller setting with the Virus running around I would come down on
the side of the fence of 'hell no' but in a setting late 3rd Imperium or
Darrian tech this sort of technology could be very plausable and require no
'wires' to connect the operator.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <
> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> I think that's still the ultimate endpoint in terms of UI. After holo,
> holodynamic, etc. why bother with screens much other less efficient I/O?
>
>
> ---
> from my T989
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> That makes sense. I also remember deliberately staying away from too much
> speculation about people in the Traveller universe have implanted
> cyberware because there was so much cyberpunk going on at the time.
> Traveller didn't need to become just one more cyberpunk game.
>
> And now the Internet has sidelined cyberpunk as another unanticipated way
> that the way technology plays out doesn't fit our assumptions. Now
> everyone is hackers instead of jackers.
>
> > From memory the TL15 Cyber computer implant can hold a full virus. A
> > possible vector to take over Lucan and anyone else who had one of these.
> > Talk about hearing voices in the head...
> >
> > Antony
> >
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

Never said it should be exclusively cyber ware but that's how it
should start. IMTU it's cyberware at TL9 but starts getting
biomechanical at TL10 and is almost fully so by TL15


---
from my T989

John Potter wrote:


Honestly 'neural' interfaces doesn't have to be via implanted
cyberware. Today's medical technology can reproduce specific
reactions in a subject.

So at TL 15 (or whatever technology level you feel like) you can
build a workstation that hte crew member simply leans back into
and the head simply has data projected into it. And backup
systems use manual manipulation incase the computer neural
machinery gives out.
In a Traveller setting with the Virus running around I would come
down on the side of the fence of 'hell no' but in a setting late
3rd Imperium or Darrian tech this sort of technology could be
very plausable and require no 'wires' to connect the operator.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:02 AM,
<> <
<> > wrote:




I think that's still the ultimate endpoint in terms of UI. After
holo, holodynamic, etc. why bother with screens much other less
efficient I/O?

---
from my T989

<> wrote:


That makes sense. I also remember deliberately staying away from
too much
speculation about people in the Traveller universe have implanted
cyberware because there was so much cyberpunk going on at the
time.
Traveller didn't need to become just one more cyberpunk game.

And now the Internet has sidelined cyberpunk as another
unanticipated way
that the way technology plays out doesn't fit our assumptions.
Now
everyone is hackers instead of jackers.

> From memory the TL15 Cyber computer implant can hold a full
virus. A
> possible vector to take over Lucan and anyone else who had one
of these.
> Talk about hearing voices in the head...
>
> Antony
>







--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened
to you would have been deserved.

Gary--

I won't argue with your reasoning, but merely say if I had started writing
in 1992 that in the new Traveller there would be a lot of chips inside
people's heads, they would have started sending death squads to Normal.

>I think that's still the ultimate endpoint in terms of UI. After holo,
holodynamic, etc. why bother with screens much other less efficient I/O?

>---
>from my T989

wrote:

That makes sense. I also remember deliberately staying away from too much
speculation about people in the Traveller universe have implanted
cyberware because there was so much cyberpunk going on at the time.
Traveller didn't need to become just one more cyberpunk game.

And now the Internet has sidelined cyberpunk as another unanticipated way
that the way technology plays out doesn't fit our assumptions. Now
everyone is hackers instead of jackers.

> From memory the TL15 Cyber computer implant can hold a full virus. A
> possible vector to take over Lucan and anyone else who had one of these.
> Talk about hearing voices in the head...
>
> Antony
>

Actual on board chips out computers not so much. Simply i/o for
the technically inclined. By TLC or D, I don't think it would
even need surgery to "install." Even then would expect certain
groups of luddites, privacy activists, religious groups, hippies
etc to eschew even that.


---
from my T989

wrote:


Gary--

I won't argue with your reasoning, but merely say if I had
started writing
in 1992 that in the new Traveller there would be a lot of chips
inside
people's heads, they would have started sending death squads to
Normal.

>I think that's still the ultimate endpoint in terms of UI. After
holo,
holodynamic, etc. why bother with screens much other less
efficient I/O?

>---
>from my T989

<> wrote:

That makes sense. I also remember deliberately staying away from
too much
speculation about people in the Traveller universe have implanted
cyberware because there was so much cyberpunk going on at the
time.
Traveller didn't need to become just one more cyberpunk game.

And now the Internet has sidelined cyberpunk as another
unanticipated way
that the way technology plays out doesn't fit our assumptions.
Now
everyone is hackers instead of jackers.

> From memory the TL15 Cyber computer implant can hold a full
virus. A
> possible vector to take over Lucan and anyone else who had one
of these.
> Talk about hearing voices in the head...
>
> Antony
>

Don't forget cyberpunk-hating Traveller players.

> Actual on board chips out computers not so much. Simply i/o for the
technically inclined. By TLC or D, I don't think it would even need
surgery to "install." Even then would expect certain groups of luddites,
privacy > activists, religious groups, hippies etc to eschew even that.

> ---
> from my T989

> wrote:

>> Gary--
>>
>> I won't argue with your reasoning, but merely say if I had started writing
>> in 1992 that in the new Traveller there would be a lot of chips inside
>> people's heads, they would have started sending death squads to Normal.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, <> wrote:

> Don't forget cyberpunk-hating Traveller players.

They always left me scratching my head, if you read the
original adventures they were very "cyberpunk" in flavor.
--
Evyn

To be fair, there were a lot of cyberpunk games around at the time, and
there were some not unfair criticisms levelled at Dark Con and 2300 that
they were turning cyberpunk on their way out. So the last thing the
Traveller community needed was the sense that their game, which was
established in everyone's minds as "Not Cyberpunk" was somehow turning
into cyberpunk. I mean, why turn an existing "Not Cyberpunk" game into
cyberpunk when there were already so many others out there? So it was a
function of game "feel," not focusing attention on that sort of stuff.
However, TNE got slagged for being "dark," when "dark" and "cyberpunk"
were almost synonyms.

That was going to be the big challenge writing about the Empress Wave, not
turning Traveller into a "Psionics Game." The funny thing about Trav was
that psionics was very clearly established as existing in CT, and there
were the helmets and everything, and then by and large that fell out of
the game mainstream through MT, and was almost forgotten. Any reference to
psionics at all would run the risk of a perceived change of feel to the
game. And as we know, perception is reality to those who perceive it that
way. TNE was dark, TNE wanted to destroy Traveller, "TNE is NOT
Traveller," etc.

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, <> wrote:
>
>> Don't forget cyberpunk-hating Traveller players.
>
>
> They always left me scratching my head, if you read the
> original adventures they were very "cyberpunk" in flavor.
> --
> Evyn
>

I find it odd, perhaps because I am older and hindsight, I see traveller
where almost anything is possible. there's nothing to say an isolated world
couldn't have gone the cyberware route or a world was populated by a mostly
Psionic genetic pool of humans or sentients. Traveller is simply a massive
canvas to paint on.

I always have seen Traveller being a setting allowing a create GM to tell a
story he wanted and simply providing the tools to tell that story.

I find it interesting you mention the EW because in the Regency game I am
currently running every other week its about to rear its ugly head. And its
yet to be told if the Regency will survive the aftermath of it as it
drivers billions of refugees in front of it through the Regency.

I run my games more like a sandboxe with several stories running that the
player's can bump into or forge their own if they so choose.

I try to keep my options open as a GM.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:11 PM, <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> To be fair, there were a lot of cyberpunk games around at the time, and
> there were some not unfair criticisms levelled at Dark Con and 2300 that
> they were turning cyberpunk on their way out. So the last thing the
> Traveller community needed was the sense that their game, which was
> established in everyone's minds as "Not Cyberpunk" was somehow turning
> into cyberpunk. I mean, why turn an existing "Not Cyberpunk" game into
> cyberpunk when there were already so many others out there? So it was a
> function of game "feel," not focusing attention on that sort of stuff.
> However, TNE got slagged for being "dark," when "dark" and "cyberpunk"
> were almost synonyms.
>
> That was going to be the big challenge writing about the Empress Wave, not
> turning Traveller into a "Psionics Game." The funny thing about Trav was
> that psionics was very clearly established as existing in CT, and there
> were the helmets and everything, and then by and large that fell out of
> the game mainstream through MT, and was almost forgotten. Any reference to
> psionics at all would run the risk of a perceived change of feel to the
> game. And as we know, perception is reality to those who perceive it that
> way. TNE was dark, TNE wanted to destroy Traveller, "TNE is NOT
> Traveller," etc.
>
>
> > On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, <> wrote:
> >
> >> Don't forget cyberpunk-hating Traveller players.
> >
> >
> > They always left me scratching my head, if you read the
> > original adventures they were very "cyberpunk" in flavor.
> > --
> > Evyn
> >
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

> I find it odd, perhaps because I am older and hindsight, I see traveller
> where almost anything is possible. there's nothing to say an isolated
> world...

> I always have seen Traveller being a setting allowing a create GM to tell
> a
> story he wanted and simply providing the tools to tell that story.

For me, and for us at GDW, that was very real as well. However, the way it
played out most often was kind of being crucified between the two very
real, very intentional extremes:

1. Traveller as generic SFRPG allowing you to anything, i.e., its roots
2. Traveller as a very specific, historical campaign setting which it had
grown into

The two really pulled us in a lot of opposite directions. FF&S and World
Tamers being an example of 1, and most of the sourcebooks being an example
of 2. For my money, the base rulebook itself was very painfully pulled in
both directions, trying to be welcoming to both ends of the spectrum and
maybe falling between both stools from time to time.

> I run my games more like a sandboxe with several stories running that the
> player's can bump into or forge their own if they so choose.

That's kind of the way I ran my campaign. And the different campaign
groups would impact each other's storylines in very entertaining ways,
blundering into each other's operations and screwing things up, etc.

I have a very similar situation as I ran a traveller game 15 years ago a
few of the player's in my current group had characters in that old game who
are still around and kicking driving their own agenda's and the current
crop of characters have already crossed paths one of the old player
characters and a couple of the older NPCs from the older campaign which was
like Christmas for me as a GM and the player of the old character seemed to
enjoy running in it his old character with the new.

Strange days indeed.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:39 PM, <> wrote:

> **
>
> > I run my games more like a sandboxe with several stories running that the
> > player's can bump into or forge their own if they so choose.
>
> That's kind of the way I ran my campaign. And the different campaign
> groups would impact each other's storylines in very entertaining ways,
> blundering into each other's operations and screwing things up, etc.
>
> --
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:11 PM, <> wrote:

> To be fair, there were a lot of cyberpunk games around at the time, and
> there were some not unfair criticisms levelled at Dark Con and 2300 that
> they were turning cyberpunk on their way out. So the last thing the
> Traveller community needed was the sense that their game, which was
> established in everyone's minds as "Not Cyberpunk" was somehow turning
> into cyberpunk. I mean, why turn an existing "Not Cyberpunk" game into
> cyberpunk when there were already so many others out there? So it was a
> function of game "feel," not focusing attention on that sort of stuff.
> However, TNE got slagged for being "dark," when "dark" and "cyberpunk"
> were almost synonyms.
>

See I don't get that as TNE was a Explorers game mostly. And like the Core
of CT before it is was flexible enough to run all sorts of games. The core
premise was society fell down and we are bravely rebuilding. In a lot of
ways TNE was Twilight 2000 in Space.... Which is great for me as I am a
huge Post Apocalypse fan. Punk is far more about the noir aspects of the
game murky goals and answers, often with a dark forbidding static
culture surrounding it....

That was going to be the big challenge writing about the Empress Wave, not
> turning Traveller into a "Psionics Game." The funny thing about Trav was
> that psionics was very clearly established as existing in CT, and there
> were the helmets and everything, and then by and large that fell out of
> the game mainstream through MT, and was almost forgotten. Any reference to
> psionics at all would run the risk of a perceived change of feel to the
> game. And as we know, perception is reality to those who perceive it that
> way.

Shit to be honest, I have a hard time with Psionics, but mostly that was do
to the players who gravitate towards them than their actual existence in
the game.

> TNE was dark, TNE wanted to destroy Traveller, "TNE is NOT
> Traveller," etc.

I never got that, meaning that TNE was out to destroy Traveller. Traveller
as a huge back story painted its self into a corner and TNE was a way out.

As for NOT Traveller, all I can figure is it was the change in the rules
system. Which took a lot of traveller previous tech and streamlined and
unified the rough patches. It did eliminate al lot of the "DEEP SPACE"
ethos that was assumed in earlier editions by getting ride
of continuous thrust drives, which IMHO was a good thing as most games
where less about the vast distance of space and more about the points of
contacts...
--
Evyn

Evyn--

I'm snipping out my parts and leaving your responses to reply to.

> See I don't get that as TNE was a Explorers game mostly. And like the Core
> of CT before it is was flexible enough to run all sorts of games. The core
> premise was society fell down and we are bravely rebuilding.

I agree. The fact that the background was a fallen Imperium was something
that came out of the Rebellion and the Black Wars and the Hard Times and
all of that, so was a given.

> In a lot of
> ways TNE was Twilight 2000 in Space.... Which is great for me as I am a
> huge Post Apocalypse fan. Punk is far more about the noir aspects of the
> game murky goals and answers, often with a dark forbidding static
> culture surrounding it....

I think some Traveller players didn't want a T2K parallel, as in their
minds, that in itself was their definition of "dark." Maybe it's a matter
of emphasis. Over the decades of "urban flight" as the upwardly mobile
left for the suburbs, the suburbs certainly had plenty of life and energy.
But for some, the loss of those vital urban centers was cause for
mourning. Maybe it's similar. Although only a little.

But as we've discussed earlier, there seems to be agreement that given the
in-game fact of Rebellion, Black Wars, Hard Times, there was no other way
to go.

> Shit to be honest, I have a hard time with Psionics, but mostly that was
> do
> to the players who gravitate towards them than their actual existence in
> the game.

That's an interesting observation, but related to my point about not
wanting to turn Traveller into an all psionics all the time game, because
if psionics did attract a certain time of player, that would, in fact,
change the personality of the game.

> I never got that, meaning that TNE was out to destroy Traveller. Traveller
> as a huge back story painted its self into a corner and TNE was a way out.

Yeah, like I said above, that's certainly the way we at GDW saw it. But
not everybody sees things the same way, obviously. Tomayto, Tomahto.

> As for NOT Traveller, all I can figure is it was the change in the rules
> system. Which took a lot of traveller previous tech and streamlined and
> unified the rough patches. It did eliminate al lot of the "DEEP SPACE"
> ethos that was assumed in earlier editions by getting ride
> of continuous thrust drives, which IMHO was a good thing as most games
> where less about the vast distance of space and more about the points of
> contacts...

Not to disagree with you, but I think for the people who were the most
outspoken about it (or at least the ones I'm thinking of), it was not the
rules, it was actually the grand, shining, noble Imperium they wanted to
go back to. And so it was really CT that they were thinking of, and what I
don't think they realized was that had already been going away in MT with
the Rebellion. So I think TNE got that blame when MT really started the
ball rolling. They could ignore it for a while in MT, but when TNE came
along it gave them an opportunity to draw a line they were unable to draw
in MT. But I think there were some people who thought 2D6 was really the
way God intended, so for them TNE was bad on that basis too.

It's such a personal thing. I know people who say only 1970s Aerosmith is
the real Aerosmith, and all their stuff in the '90s wasn't really
Aerosmith. It has to do with stuff that you fall in love with at a certain
time in your life, and that stuff will always be better for you. The heart
is a powerful thing.

My two cents.

Dave

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:35 PM, <> wrote:

>
>
> Not to disagree with you, but I think for the people who were the most
> outspoken about it (or at least the ones I'm thinking of), it was not the
> rules, it was actually the grand, shining, noble Imperium they wanted to
> go back to. And so it was really CT that they were thinking of, and what I
> don't think they realized was that had already been going away in MT with
> the Rebellion. So I think TNE got that blame when MT really started the
> ball rolling. They could ignore it for a while in MT, but when TNE came
> along it gave them an opportunity to draw a line they were unable to draw
> in MT.

I can't disagree with that.

I also remember how some got angry some got when we were
unimaginable amounts of Fun designing absolutely silly things with FF&S.
Pedal powered spinal mounts, pelvis mount plasma guns, orbit capable pogo
stick etc. etc... The grumping on the xBoat list when they heard was
sometimes amusing. But looking back a lot of that may have been how dare we
sully that shining Imperium and Traveller with low comedy. There is the
whole "other" Traveller Imperium made up of silly characters and
creations.... All powered by TNE.

> But I think there were some people who thought 2D6 was really the
> way God intended,
>

You Know, I often fall into that category, but I never let it get in the
way of having fun...

--
Evyn