Thread: Got me thining

When I was doing the music posts I was thinking about the various factions of the Final War. I really think Lucan gets an unfair deal. His advisers and/or Imperial guard as soon as Strephon shows up should have put a bullet in his head an ended it true but he was a legitimate heir and even though he was a bastard the majority of the Imperium should have backed him. The more I think about it the true bad guys where Craig and Margret. In Craig we have a Sector Duke who hurt his ArchDuke who was fighting the Solomoni when he pulls out and takes his navy and economy with him. Altair should have sent a little group of Syleyan Rangers to visit him and put someone else in that seat. He in the sceme though was minor as all he did was a small at most sector problem. Margret on the other hand,tried to paint herself as a legitimate candidate for the throne. That would be like What Haig tried to do when Regan was shot but with several states actually following him along. She at best weakened Lucan to the point of causing the Black War. If I was Lucan or one of his senior people I would have made it a major effort to eliminate her with extreme prejudice hate to say it but even the twins, they would have been a target of a snatch op.

That's a good point about Craig, but he was working through some personal
issues at the time, trying to figure out if he was a lizard or not.

More seriously, a big issue with the factions is that "all politics is/are
local," but the whole storyline was a can of worms. The more you tried to
think about it, the more you just wanted someone to give you a hint about
which larger can it was going to wind up in. That was kind of the last
gasp of the thread in Traveller that just wanted it to be Star Wars
(Foundation and Technic History being insufficiently photogenic). A lot of
the grognard thinking goes back to Foundation and Technic models (and
Tubb, etc.), but they weren't trying to market something that could ride
Popular currents of imagination. Anything that didn't take those pulp
concepts and put them onto celluloid or at least CRT pixels wasn't going
to get enough traction. To which the grognards would say, "So what, make
less money, be less greedy, sell to fewer people, go out of business for
all we care," but either way they're still left with the LBBs, so it's
kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Desire nothing but desirelessness;
want nothing and you have everything."

> When I was doing the music posts I was thinking about the various factions
> of the Final War. I really think Lucan gets an unfair deal. His advisers
> and/or Imperial guard as soon as Strephon shows up should have put a
> bullet in his head an ended it true but he was a legitimate heir and even
> though he was a bastard the majority of the Imperium should have backed
> him. The more I think about it the true bad guys where Craig and Margret.
> In Craig we have a Sector Duke who hurt his ArchDuke who was fighting the
> Solomoni when he pulls out and takes his navy and economy with him. Altair
> should have sent a little group of Syleyan Rangers to visit him and put
> someone else in that seat. He in the sceme though was minor as all he did
> was a small at most sector problem. Margret on the other hand,tried to
> paint herself as a legitimate candidate for the throne. That would be like
> What Haig tried to do when Regan was shot but with several states actually
> following him along. She at best weakened Lucan to the point of causing
> the Black War. If I was Lucan or one of his senior people I would have
> made it a major effort to eliminate her with extreme prejudice hate to say
> it but even the twins, they would have been a target of a snatch op.
>

True but the way she is portrayed in canon is that of being one of the
"good" guys. I can handle Craig as he was doing what a Noble should be
doing,looking out for his people but Margret was being a power hungry go
for broke bitch. I look at her being the second biggest bad guy in the
Civil War/Final War Era behind Lucans people who didn't off him when
Strephon popped up. His people get a lot of blame as well. they should have
made a bee line for the first Naval base and rallied the troops instead of
basically putting him in a cold sleep capsule. To me the bad guys in the
civil war where the nobles who forgot that the oaths go both ways up and
down. Brzzk especially. Oh poor me they won't look at me as Emp so I am
going to break away. Son,you are in a minority group, that would be like a
Vegan thinking he could be emperor. About the only High level nobles who
did their duty where the ones who followed Altiers lead and those in
Corridor.

Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)

When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
just drank what?"

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:11 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> That's a good point about Craig, but he was working through some personal
> issues at the time, trying to figure out if he was a lizard or not.
>
> More seriously, a big issue with the factions is that "all politics is/are
> local," but the whole storyline was a can of worms. The more you tried to
> think about it, the more you just wanted someone to give you a hint about
> which larger can it was going to wind up in. That was kind of the last
> gasp of the thread in Traveller that just wanted it to be Star Wars
> (Foundation and Technic History being insufficiently photogenic). A lot of
> the grognard thinking goes back to Foundation and Technic models (and
> Tubb, etc.), but they weren't trying to market something that could ride
> Popular currents of imagination. Anything that didn't take those pulp
> concepts and put them onto celluloid or at least CRT pixels wasn't going
> to get enough traction. To which the grognards would say, "So what, make
> less money, be less greedy, sell to fewer people, go out of business for
> all we care," but either way they're still left with the LBBs, so it's
> kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Desire nothing but desirelessness;
> want nothing and you have everything."
>
> > When I was doing the music posts I was thinking about the various
> factions
> > of the Final War. I really think Lucan gets an unfair deal. His advisers
> > and/or Imperial guard as soon as Strephon shows up should have put a
> > bullet in his head an ended it true but he was a legitimate heir and even
> > though he was a bastard the majority of the Imperium should have backed
> > him. The more I think about it the true bad guys where Craig and Margret.
> > In Craig we have a Sector Duke who hurt his ArchDuke who was fighting the
> > Solomoni when he pulls out and takes his navy and economy with him.
> Altair
> > should have sent a little group of Syleyan Rangers to visit him and put
> > someone else in that seat. He in the sceme though was minor as all he did
> > was a small at most sector problem. Margret on the other hand,tried to
> > paint herself as a legitimate candidate for the throne. That would be
> like
> > What Haig tried to do when Regan was shot but with several states
> actually
> > following him along. She at best weakened Lucan to the point of causing
> > the Black War. If I was Lucan or one of his senior people I would have
> > made it a major effort to eliminate her with extreme prejudice hate to
> say
> > it but even the twins, they would have been a target of a snatch op.
> >
>
>
>

You're right about the Maggie stuff, I think that was coming from the DGP
side. I think that's why she was as "popular" among the fans as she was,
they were all trying to read the tea leaves about whose can the worms
would wind up in, and it looked like some people were trying to point the
hints to Delphi.

But as you say, she didn't pass the sniff test.

> True but the way she is portrayed in canon is that of being one of the
> "good" guys. I can handle Craig as he was doing what a Noble should be
> doing,looking out for his people but Margret was being a power hungry go
> for broke bitch. I look at her being the second biggest bad guy in the
> Civil War/Final War Era behind Lucans people who didn't off him when
> Strephon popped up. His people get a lot of blame as well. they should
> have
> made a bee line for the first Naval base and rallied the troops instead of
> basically putting him in a cold sleep capsule. To me the bad guys in the
> civil war where the nobles who forgot that the oaths go both ways up and
> down. Brzzk especially. Oh poor me they won't look at me as Emp so I am
> going to break away. Son,you are in a minority group, that would be like a
> Vegan thinking he could be emperor. About the only High level nobles who
> did their duty where the ones who followed Altiers lead and those in
> Corridor.
>
> Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai
>
> We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
> visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)
>
> When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
> just drank what?"
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:11 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> That's a good point about Craig, but he was working through some
>> personal
>> issues at the time, trying to figure out if he was a lizard or not.
>>
>> More seriously, a big issue with the factions is that "all politics
>> is/are
>> local," but the whole storyline was a can of worms. The more you tried
>> to
>> think about it, the more you just wanted someone to give you a hint
>> about
>> which larger can it was going to wind up in. That was kind of the last
>> gasp of the thread in Traveller that just wanted it to be Star Wars
>> (Foundation and Technic History being insufficiently photogenic). A lot
>> of
>> the grognard thinking goes back to Foundation and Technic models (and
>> Tubb, etc.), but they weren't trying to market something that could ride
>> Popular currents of imagination. Anything that didn't take those pulp
>> concepts and put them onto celluloid or at least CRT pixels wasn't going
>> to get enough traction. To which the grognards would say, "So what, make
>> less money, be less greedy, sell to fewer people, go out of business for
>> all we care," but either way they're still left with the LBBs, so it's
>> kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Desire nothing but desirelessness;
>> want nothing and you have everything."
>>
>> > When I was doing the music posts I was thinking about the various
>> factions
>> > of the Final War. I really think Lucan gets an unfair deal. His
>> advisers
>> > and/or Imperial guard as soon as Strephon shows up should have put a
>> > bullet in his head an ended it true but he was a legitimate heir and
>> even
>> > though he was a bastard the majority of the Imperium should have
>> backed
>> > him. The more I think about it the true bad guys where Craig and
>> Margret.
>> > In Craig we have a Sector Duke who hurt his ArchDuke who was fighting
>> the
>> > Solomoni when he pulls out and takes his navy and economy with him.
>> Altair
>> > should have sent a little group of Syleyan Rangers to visit him and
>> put
>> > someone else in that seat. He in the sceme though was minor as all he
>> did
>> > was a small at most sector problem. Margret on the other hand,tried to
>> > paint herself as a legitimate candidate for the throne. That would be
>> like
>> > What Haig tried to do when Regan was shot but with several states
>> actually
>> > following him along. She at best weakened Lucan to the point of
>> causing
>> > the Black War. If I was Lucan or one of his senior people I would have
>> > made it a major effort to eliminate her with extreme prejudice hate to
>> say
>> > it but even the twins, they would have been a target of a snatch op.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

Actually, none of them passed the sniff test.
Strephon: AWOL, something a leader can never do and by the time he popped up, he had lost his people.
Margaret: Scheming and dirty.  The Hillary Clinton of space.
Norris: "We'll just be over here while you guys figure out who I should report to...."  "Bad kitties!" 

As an aside, he should have been the one candidate for Emperor that Margaret, Strephon, the Vilani, Craig, and Brzk could agree on (the "hero of the Fifth Frontier War"), and that was perhaps a possible Rebellion wrap up opportunity lost.  With that much backing, Norris could have rallied a massive fleet at Vland and then unseated Lucan.
Vland: A combination of Old South Confederates (meaning the ruling elites, not the guys running around in the orange Dodge) and "mother Russia"... "the Core shall rise again..."
Antares: "Imma going to take my bone and go home..." Bad dog....errr Vargr.  So much for the loyal canine stereotype.

Lucan: Simply put, a murderer in the eyes of his people.  Hard to be loyal to someone who would kill his own brother, whether he actually did or not.
Dulinor: When you plot to murder the emperor, be prepared to stick around and do more than have a photo-op on the throne.
Daibei: "Hey guys, we're getting kinda invaded over here, so with all due respect, screw you."

The Solomani: Everyone hates space Nazis, though the parallels between Solsec and the NSA are positively eerie.
The Aslan: Minor players in the whole tableau.
The K'kree: I can't even stand PETA, let alone...  Seriously, I found the K'kree so unlikeable I didn't even buy the original alien sourcebook for them.  I'm not alone.

Good commentary. Although I was not there when the deed was done, I
believe that it was deliberate that no faction was the hands-down "good
guy," the idea being that everyone could choose their favorite and none
would say them nay, very much cribbed from what FASA was doing with
BattleTech which was very similar to SFB, a permanent status quo. One of
the "insider secrets" that Marc whispered to people at the cons back then
was that the "tiffany star" pattern for MT was going to be the final
boundaries of the shattered Imperium when the dust settled. It was the
"none would say them nay" part that really wasn't thought through.

I'm always tickled by the phrase, "the XX of space," as if a) we aren't in
space, and b) space is just another locale, co-equal to "Dirt," and not
"everything."

We sort of did what you observe and have Norris the winner, although
having him march across the scorched earth and sit on the throne would
have gone too far.

No, you're not alone on the K'kree, an example of the fact that there have
to be villains, no matter how above-it-all the editorial voice parses it.
And, going back to a theme that has won me innumerable un-friends, all of
the alien races are one-dimensional. Just as "Ice planet," "Jungle
planet," "Desert Planet," "Swamp Planet," "Ocean planet" were all filmed
here, only humans could not be pigeon-holed and were capable of the full
range of sentient behavior. I wonder why that is... :-)

> Actually, none of them passed the sniff test.
> Strephon: AWOL, something a leader can never do and by the time he popped
> up, he had lost his people.
> Margaret: Scheming and dirty.  The Hillary Clinton of space.
> Norris: "We'll just be over here while you guys figure out who I should
> report to...."  "Bad kitties!" 
>
> As an aside, he should have been the one candidate for Emperor that
> Margaret, Strephon, the Vilani, Craig, and Brzk could agree on (the "hero
> of the Fifth Frontier War"), and that was perhaps a possible Rebellion
> wrap up opportunity lost.  With that much backing, Norris could have
> rallied a massive fleet at Vland and then unseated Lucan.
> Vland: A combination of Old South Confederates (meaning the ruling elites,
> not the guys running around in the orange Dodge) and "mother Russia"...
> "the Core shall rise again..."
> Antares: "Imma going to take my bone and go home..." Bad dog....errr
> Vargr.  So much for the loyal canine stereotype.
>
> Lucan: Simply put, a murderer in the eyes of his people.  Hard to be
> loyal to someone who would kill his own brother, whether he actually did
> or not.
> Dulinor: When you plot to murder the emperor, be prepared to stick around
> and do more than have a photo-op on the throne.
> Daibei: "Hey guys, we're getting kinda invaded over here, so with all due
> respect, screw you."
>
> The Solomani: Everyone hates space Nazis, though the parallels between
> Solsec and the NSA are positively eerie.
> The Aslan: Minor players in the whole tableau.
> The K'kree: I can't even stand PETA, let alone...  Seriously, I found the
> K'kree so unlikeable I didn't even buy the original alien sourcebook for
> them.  I'm not alone.
>

While I agree that it was a choice between evils (and a lesser evil is still an evil), I was actually a Brzk fan.

I went through the factions and decided they were all a bit rubbish. Just different factions of the Imperial plutocracy fighting over the pie, or protecting their own bit of it.

This includes Brzk. On the other hand, his "humans and Vargr (and why don't we capitalise "humans"?) are natural allies" is an appeal that can extend to all Imperial subjects: Solomani, Vilani, other humans, Vargr, Aslan, Droyne, Chirper, and all the other various species. Even to the K'kree, if they could refrain from being, well, K'kree.

As a "Democratic Pansophontist" (my nonsense term for the saner wing of the Ine Givar), my sympathies naturally inclined to Brzk, who at least got the "Pansophontist" right, and wasn't actually worse, or more hypocritical, on the "Democratic&quot; side. (Dulinor was an obvious hypocrite, with his "representational" nonsense).

Obviously he was never going to win, but lost causes usually have the best poetry.

There was actually another faction which is rarely mentioned: the Old Expanses nobility. The ones who, realising that the Imperium couldn't support them, swapped their Imperial coronets for their grandparents39; old Solomani Klan hoods. It would have been interesting to see how that worked out for them, as more orthodox (SolSec, and "illegal" Solomani) factions would probably have tried to purge them. I could see them ultimately ending the war on their front, as the Solomani offensive ran out of steam, and SolSec's ability to coerce local leaders diminished. In effect, they (the majority of them) could have evolved into a relatively liberal Solomani faction, more interested in ruling their own turf than in The Cause.

Naturally, I was a fan of the High Passage magazine stuff set in Old Expanses. It had Keiths!

I might rant about my take on the Ine Givar later, if anyone is unwise enough to show interest. (Hint, don't! ;) )

I also had fun with the description of Brzk's ancestor, Admiral Soegz. I naturally pumped up his importance in Arbellatra39;s campaign, to the extent of making him the commander who captured Capital for her. And then his Vargr Huscarles landed and started to arrest the supporters of Gustus.

See the 1527 Sack of Rome for further details, assuming that more of the Germans were Lutherans than was actually the case.

I wrote about Brzk: "Obviously he was never going to win, but lost causes usually have the best poetry."

Emphasis on "usually", and I'm glad I used that word.

There were and are plenty of "lost causes" that deserved to lose, and their poetry was/is almost invariably rubbish.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:

>
>
> The K'kree: I can't even stand PETA, let alone... Seriously, I found the
> K'kree so unlikeable I didn't even buy the original alien sourcebook for
> them. I'm not alone.
>
>
>
We have been kicking the K'Kree around alot out here in the west, My
current idea is K'Kree: Friendship is Magic, where the Ithklur and a sub
faction of the K'Kree that got Heavily worked over by the Dominate come out
as a serious sub-faction.....

--
Evyn

The thought you put into that was the strength of the "none can say thee
nay" approach, but there was no way gamers were going to be happy with it.
The "Rebellion&quot; was Chekhov's musket. Players could not just leave it
above the mantel not doing anything.

"Christ reigns in such a way that the Emperor who persecutes Luther for
the Pope is forced to destroy the Pope for Luther"

I also like Francis' remark after Pavia the previous year, "Tous est perdu
fors l'honneur."

PLEASE rant about the Ine Givar, if only to me privately! Sounds like it
would be fun.

> While I agree that it was a choice between evils (and a lesser evil is
> still an evil), I was actually a Brzk fan.
>
> I went through the factions and decided they were all a bit rubbish. Just
> different factions of the Imperial plutocracy fighting over the pie, or
> protecting their own bit of it.
>
> This includes Brzk. On the other hand, his "humans and Vargr (and why
> don't we capitalise "humans"?) are natural allies" is an appeal that can
> extend to all Imperial subjects: Solomani, Vilani, other humans, Vargr,
> Aslan, Droyne, Chirper, and all the other various species. Even to the
> K'kree, if they could refrain from being, well, K'kree.
>
> As a "Democratic Pansophontist" (my nonsense term for the saner wing of
> the Ine Givar), my sympathies naturally inclined to Brzk, who at least got
> the "Pansophontist" right, and wasn't actually worse, or more
> hypocritical, on the "Democratic&quot; side. (Dulinor was an obvious hypocrite,
> with his "representational" nonsense).
>
> Obviously he was never going to win, but lost causes usually have the best
> poetry.
>
> There was actually another faction which is rarely mentioned: the Old
> Expanses nobility. The ones who, realising that the Imperium couldn't
> support them, swapped their Imperial coronets for their grandparents39; old
> Solomani Klan hoods. It would have been interesting to see how that worked
> out for them, as more orthodox (SolSec, and "illegal" Solomani) factions
> would probably have tried to purge them. I could see them ultimately
> ending the war on their front, as the Solomani offensive ran out of steam,
> and SolSec's ability to coerce local leaders diminished. In effect, they
> (the majority of them) could have evolved into a relatively liberal
> Solomani faction, more interested in ruling their own turf than in The
> Cause.
>
> Naturally, I was a fan of the High Passage magazine stuff set in Old
> Expanses. It had Keiths!
>
> I might rant about my take on the Ine Givar later, if anyone is unwise
> enough to show interest. (Hint, don't! ;) )
>
> I also had fun with the description of Brzk's ancestor, Admiral Soegz. I
> naturally pumped up his importance in Arbellatra39;s campaign, to the extent
> of making him the commander who captured Capital for her. And then his
> Vargr Huscarles landed and started to arrest the supporters of Gustus.
>
> See the 1527 Sack of Rome for further details, assuming that more of the
> Germans were Lutherans than was actually the case.

Yeah, I immediately wanted to test your poetry hypothesis. Does "Dixie"
count as poetry? Look away!

Actually my home state's anthem is lost cause poetry: "The despot's heel
is on thy shore..."

> I wrote about Brzk: "Obviously he was never going to win, but lost causes
> usually have the best poetry."
>
> Emphasis on "usually", and I'm glad I used that word.
>
> There were and are plenty of "lost causes" that deserved to lose, and
> their poetry was/is almost invariably rubbish.
>
>
>

"Kicking the K'kree around a lot" is a good pastime.

One of the things I miss from TNE is the chance to write about the Ithklur
alliance with the liberated borged K'kree thingies.

> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Harold Hale
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The K'kree: I can't even stand PETA, let alone... Seriously, I found
>> the
>> K'kree so unlikeable I didn't even buy the original alien sourcebook for
>> them. I'm not alone.
>>
>>
>>
> We have been kicking the K'Kree around alot out here in the west, My
> current idea is K'Kree: Friendship is Magic, where the Ithklur and a sub
> faction of the K'Kree that got Heavily worked over by the Dominate come
> out
> as a serious sub-faction.....
>
> --
> Evyn
>

Indeed. That's why I amended my point.

I was, of course, making a Spanish Civil War joke.


---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :

Yeah, I immediately wanted to test your poetry hypothesis. Does "Dixie"
count as poetry? Look away!

Actually my home state's anthem is lost cause poetry: "The despot's heel
is on thy shore..."

Oh dear, I hit the wrong button. If you get a dummy post, that was me being a dummy.

And that is the main reason why I declared myself finished. OK, that and the shedload of cheap wine on a day off work.

But now I have a challenge.

And yes, I thought you would appreciate the Lutheran joke. Vargr Huscarles on Capital arresting Solomani nobles? It floats my boat.

OK, now I am going to have to write a rant offline, (but dump the result here) because I can't just pull this one out of my head. I don't have my original documents, so I'm going to have to re-make this one up.

You will understand. You've done this a lot. :)


---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :

PLEASE rant about the Ine Givar, if only to me privately! Sounds like it
would be fun.

Not as clever as I'd hoped, but...

The Ine Givar were originally portrayed as generic terrorist idiot/enemies. That is a legitimate narrative role. Supposedly they were aligned with the Zhodani, the Sword Worlders and the Vargr. At least some of them engaged in really messed up stuff - nuclear terrorism and so on.

OK, they're Orcs. Except..

The Imperium isn't a bunch of saints. How do you dissent against them? Well, actually, the earliest publications suggest you get "disappeared&quot; into various places (if you are lucky). In fact, Adventure 1 (Kinunir) was the basis for the later canonical arrest of Duke Norris, and him turning up with an Imperial Warrant to overthrow Admiral Santanocheev, etc.

There was also the story in The Traveller Adventure about various Vargr groups - former Corsair gangs - moving into Imperial space.

And, naturally, Psionics are suppressed.

Oh, and since I'm writing this off the top of my head - Broadsword. There's nothing particularly obviously wrong about the rebels there. Apparently the IG tried to contact them but failed, and whatever.

There's plenty of scope for an anti-Imperial movement, and they don't all have to be stooges for another power, idiot terrorists, or whatever.

Also I have my own family background as Australian anti-conscriptionists during WW1 and so on. I don't have an issue with dissidents. Even ones with reasonably sane armed wings. Hey, the US engaged in an armed rebellion against Britain. Was George Washington a terrorist? And East Timor, etc.

So basically, my Traveller universe has a sane faction of the Ine Givar. There are also groups that aren't so sane. Some of these are manipulated by the Sword Worlds (spot the morons), the Zhodani (pro-psionic oligarchy - "no thanks" say the anti-Imperial democrats) or the Vargr ("we support Vargr rights, but not piracy"). Others are just batsh*t crazy.

Proxies for the Left, in short.

Oh, right, that's what I was heading towards. Even in a universe of nobles and megacorporations, there are people who think people are people... Shame about the factions in the Rebellion.

Of course a lot of this was part of that old Star Wars strand in Traveller, in which the Imperium was the Evil Empire. It produced lots of Han Soloes, but very few, umm, Princess Leias. Or even Luke Skywalkers.

Not many canonical Darth Vaders, though.

Yes, moral ambiguity, but sometimes you just want Good and Evil.

But ignore me, I've just spent the last decade playing superhero games. I've managed to master-gearhead the Flash and Aquaman, and now I'm bored.

Time for Traveller again, or should I revisit Old School DnD (because the newer stuff melts my head, and my potential players haven't played it)?

Either way, I need easy freeform stupid rules, that don't get in the way of the jokes.

And even when I'm playing historical miniatures, I'm not that interested in looking up tables. My ideal game is Kampfgruppe Peiper on the Kokoda Track, versus nearly anyone.

Thank you "oh so much" for leading me down the Ine Givar rabbit hole, this will come in handy for me. >:)

My pleasure. I enjoy sharing. :)

Actually, now I think about it, Norris being busted out of the Kinunir class ship that was a prison was a relatively early case of "rescue the prince". He wasn't a princess. Win for GDW, whether or not it was intentional. Of course, the publishers of En Garde might have known about Men in Iron Masks. Especially since an Imperial Warrant was involved.

Oh myyy. (To quote George Takei). How retrospectively obvious.

It's a shame I was only 16 when I bought and read Kinunir.

Having missed references for over 35 years, I feel like a total Dumas.

French pronunciation for the references I missed, English pronunciation for how I feel.

Nobles slapped in prison and held icognito, "warrants&quot;, and so on.

>From the publishers of En Garde.

And now I want to run a campaign, to make up for my stupid.

Oh, I see what you did there... >_<
Anyway, thanks for some insight into a more factional Ine Givar. :)


On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 11:29 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:


  Having missed references for over 35 years, I feel like a total Dumas.

French pronunciation for the references I missed, English pronunciation for how I feel.

Nobles slapped in prison and held icognito, "warrants&quot;, and so on.

>From the publishers of En Garde.

And now I want to run a campaign, to make up for my stupid. #yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669 -- #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp #yiv4084025669hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp #yiv4084025669ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp .yiv4084025669ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp .yiv4084025669ad p {margin:0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp .yiv4084025669ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ygrp-lc #yiv4084025669hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ygrp-lc .yiv4084025669ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span .yiv4084025669underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 dd.yiv4084025669last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 dd.yiv4084025669last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 dd.yiv4084025669last p span.yiv4084025669yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669file-title a, #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669file-title a:active, #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669file-title a:hover, #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669photo-title a, #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669photo-title a:active, #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669photo-title a:hover, #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 div#yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4084025669ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4084025669yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv4084025669 o {font-size:0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv4084025669 input, #yiv4084025669 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4084025669 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4084025669logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-msg p#yiv4084025669attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-reco #yiv4084025669reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv4084025669

I think Tom Lehrer did something along those lines. Maybe in "We Are the
Folksong Army."

> Indeed. That's why I amended my point.
>
> I was, of course, making a Spanish Civil War joke.
>
>
> ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
>
> Yeah, I immediately wanted to test your poetry hypothesis. Does "Dixie"
> count as poetry? Look away!
>
> Actually my home state's anthem is lost cause poetry: "The despot's heel
> is on thy shore..."
>
>

Due to the quote from the Imperial Encyclopedia ref section on Dulinor
acting perfectly appropriate to his right as an archduke and failure of
Moot to confirm Right of Assassination in Civil Wars, always had a bit of
sympathy to his pov, residual as Dave humanized his parallel quote to
Norris in Survival Margin. Who wrote the ref section of the IE? Fugate or
someone else at DGP?

This was also as a guy new to Traveller with TNE and having no vested
interested except as setting historical trivia, though.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015, 14:44 [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> I think Tom Lehrer did something along those lines. Maybe in "We Are the
> Folksong Army."
>
>
>
> > Indeed. That's why I amended my point.
> >
> > I was, of course, making a Spanish Civil War joke.
> >
> >
> > ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
> >
> > Yeah, I immediately wanted to test your poetry hypothesis. Does "Dixie"
> > count as poetry? Look away!
> >
> > Actually my home state's anthem is lost cause poetry: "The despot's heel
> > is on thy shore..."
> >
> >
>
>
>

It's funny how many seminal little nuggets of the 3I background were
buried in the adventures. It made it really hard to find some of them
later because an adventure is not an easy place to look for library data
because it's broken up kind of arbitrarily. Kinunir especially, didn't it
come with four or five ways to play it? Depending on which one you used
you'd have a different memory of what had been in the book. AHL same
thing. For the longest time I couldn't find where the reference to the
Emperor's favorite wine was.

> Actually, now I think about it, Norris being busted out of the Kinunir
> class ship that was a prison was a relatively early case of "rescue the
> prince". He wasn't a princess. Win for GDW, whether or not it was
> intentional. Of course, the publishers of En Garde might have known about
> Men in Iron Masks. Especially since an Imperial Warrant was involved.
>
> Oh myyy. (To quote George Takei). How retrospectively obvious.
>
> It's a shame I was only 16 when I bought and read Kinunir.

People's Front of Judea vs. the Judean People's Front vs. the Judean
Popular People's Front.

> Oh, I see what you did there... >_<
> Anyway, thanks for some insight into a more factional Ine Givar. :)
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 11:29 AM, "
> [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>   Having missed references for over 35 years, I feel like a total
> Dumas.
>
> French pronunciation for the references I missed, English pronunciation
> for how I feel.
>
> Nobles slapped in prison and held icognito, "warrants&quot;, and so on.
>
> From the publishers of En Garde.
>
> And now I want to run a campaign, to make up for my stupid.
> #yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669 -- #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid
> #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp #yiv4084025669hd
> {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
> 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp #yiv4084025669ads
> {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp
> .yiv4084025669ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp
> .yiv4084025669ad p {margin:0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mkp
> .yiv4084025669ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ygrp-lc
> {font-family:Arial;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-lc #yiv4084025669hd {margin:10px
> 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ygrp-lc .yiv4084025669ad
> {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669actions
> {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669activity
> {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669activity span:first-child
> {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span a
> {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity
> span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669activity span
> .yiv4084025669underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4084025669
> .yiv4084025669attach
> {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
> 0;width:400px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach div a
> {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach img
> {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach label
> {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669attach
> label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 blockquote {margin:0 0 0
> 4px;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669bold
> {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669
> .yiv4084025669bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669
> dd.yiv4084025669last p a
> {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 dd.yiv4084025669last
> p span
> {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669
> dd.yiv4084025669last p span.yiv4084025669yshortcuts
> {margin-right:0;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669attach-table div div a
> {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669attach-table
> {width:400px;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669file-title a, #yiv4084025669
> div.yiv4084025669file-title a:active, #yiv4084025669
> div.yiv4084025669file-title a:hover, #yiv4084025669
> div.yiv4084025669file-title a:visited
> {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669photo-title a,
> #yiv4084025669 div.yiv4084025669photo-title a:active, #yiv4084025669
> div.yiv4084025669photo-title a:hover, #yiv4084025669
> div.yiv4084025669photo-title a:visited
> {text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669 div#yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4084025669yshortcuts
> {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv4084025669
> .yiv4084025669green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv4084025669 .yiv4084025669MsoNormal
> {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv4084025669 o {font-size:0;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669photos div div {border:1px solid
> #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669photos div label
> {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv4084025669
> .yiv4084025669replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-actbar
> div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica,
> clean, sans-serif;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg table
> {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg
> select, #yiv4084025669 input, #yiv4084025669 textarea {font:99% Arial,
> Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg pre,
> #yiv4084025669 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4084025669logo
> {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-msg p a
> {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-msg
> p#yiv4084025669attach-count span
> {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-reco
> #yiv4084025669reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ov li a
> {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ov li
> {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv4084025669
> #yiv4084025669ygrp-sponsor #yiv4084025669ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0
> 8px;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-text
> {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-text p {margin:0 0
> 1em 0;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-text tt
> {font-size:120%;}#yiv4084025669 #yiv4084025669ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
> {border-right:none !important;}#yiv4084025669
>
>

Thanks. Since I was going to kill him I had to do him the courtesy of
humanizing him. He was a guy whose heart started out in the right place
and then went way off the reservation the further he painted himself into
a corner.

I was always told that MT was written by Gary Thomas and Joe Fugate, i.e.,
the founders of DGP. I think it was just the two of them back at the
beginning, they added more Volken later.

> Due to the quote from the Imperial Encyclopedia ref section on Dulinor
> acting perfectly appropriate to his right as an archduke and failure of
> Moot to confirm Right of Assassination in Civil Wars, always had a bit of
> sympathy to his pov, residual as Dave humanized his parallel quote to
> Norris in Survival Margin. Who wrote the ref section of the IE? Fugate or
> someone else at DGP?
>
> This was also as a guy new to Traveller with TNE and having no vested
> interested except as setting historical trivia, though.
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015, 14:44 [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I think Tom Lehrer did something along those lines. Maybe in "We Are the
>> Folksong Army."
>>
>>
>>
>> > Indeed. That's why I amended my point.
>> >
>> > I was, of course, making a Spanish Civil War joke.
>> >
>> >
>> > ---In , <dcndcn13@...> wrote :
>> >
>> > Yeah, I immediately wanted to test your poetry hypothesis. Does
>> "Dixie"
>> > count as poetry? Look away!
>> >
>> > Actually my home state's anthem is lost cause poetry: "The despot's
>> heel
>> > is on thy shore..."
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

I think Luke Skywalker was in 1001 Characters, or the other one like it.

I think the Traveller rules work just fine with Superhero storylines,
absent the superpower rules. It's just the superhero TONE that is not
"Travelleresque," by which I mean, not for official publication alongside
the Lists of Emperors and Megacorps, but it works just fine for your
campaign.

I recall when we had to come up with the name for the difficulty level
above Difficult with the D20 rules some people were opposed to
"Impossible&quot; because it seemed too silly or cartoony. I liked it, and at
the time there was a lot of angst in the game industry about having to
make games more "heroic," so I said, "this will allow players in our games
to do the Impossible, can't get more heroic than that." That convinced
Les.

> Of course a lot of this was part of that old Star Wars strand in
> Traveller, in which the Imperium was the Evil Empire. It produced lots of
> Han Soloes, but very few, umm, Princess Leias. Or even Luke Skywalkers.
>
> Not many canonical Darth Vaders, though.
>
> Yes, moral ambiguity, but sometimes you just want Good and Evil.
>
> But ignore me, I've just spent the last decade playing superhero games.
> I've managed to master-gearhead the Flash and Aquaman, and now I'm bored.
>
> Time for Traveller again, or should I revisit Old School DnD (because the
> newer stuff melts my head, and my potential players haven't played it)?
>
> Either way, I need easy freeform stupid rules, that don't get in the way
> of the jokes.
>
> And even when I'm playing historical miniatures, I'm not that interested
> in looking up tables. My ideal game is Kampfgruppe Peiper on the Kokoda
> Track, versus nearly anyone.

He along with Vader was in Citizens of the Imperium
So was Conan, There was a bunch plus in 1001

Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)

When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
just drank what?"

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:58 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> I think Luke Skywalker was in 1001 Characters, or the other one like it.
>
> I think the Traveller rules work just fine with Superhero storylines,
> absent the superpower rules. It's just the superhero TONE that is not
> "Travelleresque," by which I mean, not for official publication alongside
> the Lists of Emperors and Megacorps, but it works just fine for your
> campaign.
>
> I recall when we had to come up with the name for the difficulty level
> above Difficult with the D20 rules some people were opposed to
> "Impossible&quot; because it seemed too silly or cartoony. I liked it, and at
> the time there was a lot of angst in the game industry about having to
> make games more "heroic," so I said, "this will allow players in our games
> to do the Impossible, can't get more heroic than that." That convinced
> Les.
>
> > Of course a lot of this was part of that old Star Wars strand in
> > Traveller, in which the Imperium was the Evil Empire. It produced lots of
> > Han Soloes, but very few, umm, Princess Leias. Or even Luke Skywalkers.
> >
> > Not many canonical Darth Vaders, though.
> >
> > Yes, moral ambiguity, but sometimes you just want Good and Evil.
> >
> > But ignore me, I've just spent the last decade playing superhero games.
> > I've managed to master-gearhead the Flash and Aquaman, and now I'm bored.
> >
> > Time for Traveller again, or should I revisit Old School DnD (because the
> > newer stuff melts my head, and my potential players haven't played it)?
> >
> > Either way, I need easy freeform stupid rules, that don't get in the way
> > of the jokes.
> >
> > And even when I'm playing historical miniatures, I'm not that interested
> > in looking up tables. My ideal game is Kampfgruppe Peiper on the Kokoda
> > Track, versus nearly anyone.
>
>
>

There is something charming about those earliest TNS entries, just tiny
adventure nuggets against a blank canvas, and you could follow them
wherever you wanted.

Here's where the grognard narrative would begin, that the original sin
that proved to be Traveller's undoing started here, with saying anything
concrete about anything, so JUST SAY NO.

Except people want to hear about, "what39;s their story, when did that
happen," and you're really a Grinch if you don't try to answer those
legitimate questions. Can you imagine EGG saying, "nope, I won't tell you
what female dwarves look like, not my job, not my business, go figure it
out yourself."

Adding background is a two-edged sword, but show me anything in life that
isn't. Just use the stuff you want and ignore the stuff you don't. And
please don't forget to feel superior, that's why we're in the hobby.

> Not as clever as I'd hoped, but...
>
> The Ine Givar were originally portrayed as generic terrorist
> idiot/enemies. That is a legitimate narrative role. Supposedly they were
> aligned with the Zhodani, the Sword Worlders and the Vargr. At least some
> of them engaged in really messed up stuff - nuclear terrorism and so on.
>
> OK, they're Orcs. Except..
>
> The Imperium isn't a bunch of saints. How do you dissent against them?
> Well, actually, the earliest publications suggest you get "disappeared&quot;
> into various places (if you are lucky). In fact, Adventure 1 (Kinunir) was
> the basis for the later canonical arrest of Duke Norris, and him turning
> up with an Imperial Warrant to overthrow Admiral Santanocheev, etc.
>
> There was also the story in The Traveller Adventure about various Vargr
> groups - former Corsair gangs - moving into Imperial space.
>
> And, naturally, Psionics are suppressed.
>
> Oh, and since I'm writing this off the top of my head - Broadsword.
> There's nothing particularly obviously wrong about the rebels there.
> Apparently the IG tried to contact them but failed, and whatever.
>
> There's plenty of scope for an anti-Imperial movement, and they don't all
> have to be stooges for another power, idiot terrorists, or whatever.
>
> Also I have my own family background as Australian anti-conscriptionists
> during WW1 and so on. I don't have an issue with dissidents. Even ones
> with reasonably sane armed wings. Hey, the US engaged in an armed
> rebellion against Britain. Was George Washington a terrorist? And East
> Timor, etc.
>
> So basically, my Traveller universe has a sane faction of the Ine Givar.
> There are also groups that aren't so sane. Some of these are manipulated
> by the Sword Worlds (spot the morons), the Zhodani (pro-psionic oligarchy
> - "no thanks" say the anti-Imperial democrats) or the Vargr ("we support
> Vargr rights, but not piracy"). Others are just batsh*t crazy.
>
> Proxies for the Left, in short.
>
> Oh, right, that's what I was heading towards. Even in a universe of nobles
> and megacorporations, there are people who think people are people...
> Shame about the factions in the Rebellion.

Thanks, Charles, I thought the other was "CotI" but then came over all
self-doubty and impatient to hit SEND. Forgot about Vader. Did it include
his Psi rating, or was Trav already burying that stuff in a shallow grave?

> He along with Vader was in Citizens of the Imperium
> So was Conan, There was a bunch plus in 1001
>
> Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai
>
> We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
> visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)
>
> When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
> just drank what?"
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:58 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I think Luke Skywalker was in 1001 Characters, or the other one like it.
>>
>> I think the Traveller rules work just fine with Superhero storylines,
>> absent the superpower rules. It's just the superhero TONE that is not
>> "Travelleresque," by which I mean, not for official publication
>> alongside
>> the Lists of Emperors and Megacorps, but it works just fine for your
>> campaign.
>>
>> I recall when we had to come up with the name for the difficulty level
>> above Difficult with the D20 rules some people were opposed to
>> "Impossible&quot; because it seemed too silly or cartoony. I liked it, and at
>> the time there was a lot of angst in the game industry about having to
>> make games more "heroic," so I said, "this will allow players in our
>> games
>> to do the Impossible, can't get more heroic than that." That convinced
>> Les.
>>
>> > Of course a lot of this was part of that old Star Wars strand in
>> > Traveller, in which the Imperium was the Evil Empire. It produced lots
>> of
>> > Han Soloes, but very few, umm, Princess Leias. Or even Luke
>> Skywalkers.
>> >
>> > Not many canonical Darth Vaders, though.
>> >
>> > Yes, moral ambiguity, but sometimes you just want Good and Evil.
>> >
>> > But ignore me, I've just spent the last decade playing superhero
>> games.
>> > I've managed to master-gearhead the Flash and Aquaman, and now I'm
>> bored.
>> >
>> > Time for Traveller again, or should I revisit Old School DnD (because
>> the
>> > newer stuff melts my head, and my potential players haven't played
>> it)?
>> >
>> > Either way, I need easy freeform stupid rules, that don't get in the
>> way
>> > of the jokes.
>> >
>> > And even when I'm playing historical miniatures, I'm not that
>> interested
>> > in looking up tables. My ideal game is Kampfgruppe Peiper on the
>> Kokoda
>> > Track, versus nearly anyone.
>>
>>
>>
>

Nope had it also stated it was boosted because of his suit. I think the
Stainless Steel rat was in there ,I forget who else was in there.

Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)

When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
just drank what?"

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:12 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks, Charles, I thought the other was "CotI" but then came over all
> self-doubty and impatient to hit SEND. Forgot about Vader. Did it include
> his Psi rating, or was Trav already burying that stuff in a shallow grave?
>
>
> > He along with Vader was in Citizens of the Imperium
> > So was Conan, There was a bunch plus in 1001
> >
> > Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai
> >
> > We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night
> to
> > visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)
> >
> > When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
> > just drank what?"
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:58 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I think Luke Skywalker was in 1001 Characters, or the other one like it.
> >>
> >> I think the Traveller rules work just fine with Superhero storylines,
> >> absent the superpower rules. It's just the superhero TONE that is not
> >> "Travelleresque," by which I mean, not for official publication
> >> alongside
> >> the Lists of Emperors and Megacorps, but it works just fine for your
> >> campaign.
> >>
> >> I recall when we had to come up with the name for the difficulty level
> >> above Difficult with the D20 rules some people were opposed to
> >> "Impossible&quot; because it seemed too silly or cartoony. I liked it, and at
> >> the time there was a lot of angst in the game industry about having to
> >> make games more "heroic," so I said, "this will allow players in our
> >> games
> >> to do the Impossible, can't get more heroic than that." That convinced
> >> Les.
> >>
> >> > Of course a lot of this was part of that old Star Wars strand in
> >> > Traveller, in which the Imperium was the Evil Empire. It produced lots
> >> of
> >> > Han Soloes, but very few, umm, Princess Leias. Or even Luke
> >> Skywalkers.
> >> >
> >> > Not many canonical Darth Vaders, though.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, moral ambiguity, but sometimes you just want Good and Evil.
> >> >
> >> > But ignore me, I've just spent the last decade playing superhero
> >> games.
> >> > I've managed to master-gearhead the Flash and Aquaman, and now I'm
> >> bored.
> >> >
> >> > Time for Traveller again, or should I revisit Old School DnD (because
> >> the
> >> > newer stuff melts my head, and my potential players haven't played
> >> it)?
> >> >
> >> > Either way, I need easy freeform stupid rules, that don't get in the
> >> way
> >> > of the jokes.
> >> >
> >> > And even when I'm playing historical miniatures, I'm not that
> >> interested
> >> > in looking up tables. My ideal game is Kampfgruppe Peiper on the
> >> Kokoda
> >> > Track, versus nearly anyone.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>

As was Earl Dumarest from the Dumarest of Terra series, by E.C. Tubb.
Everything in the book at skill level 5!

Ensign Flandry was there as well.

--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."

On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 16:44:47 -0500 (CDT), wrote:

>I think Tom Lehrer did something along those lines. Maybe in "We Are the
>Folksong Army."

Yes:

"...Remember the war against Franco;
that's the kind where each of us belongs.
Though he may have won all the battles
we had all the good songs!..."

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource


http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/

®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.

Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:

CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)

I thought it did, Starkiller would have as well. Good thing someone talked
him out of that, people wouldn't want to go to Starkiller Ranch.

> Yes, Vader had his psi listed, psi strength 10 I believe it was.
>
> --
> "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> for
> it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
> kids pay for it."
>

SSR was in there, also Dominic Flandry, total of 20 between the two books.

I read all of the SSR books in college, don't think I remember a word of
them.

> Nope had it also stated it was boosted because of his suit. I think the
> Stainless Steel rat was in there ,I forget who else was in there.
>
>
> Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai
>
> We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
> visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)
>
> When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
> just drank what?"
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:12 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Charles, I thought the other was "CotI" but then came over all
>> self-doubty and impatient to hit SEND. Forgot about Vader. Did it
>> include
>> his Psi rating, or was Trav already burying that stuff in a shallow
>> grave?
>>
>>
>> > He along with Vader was in Citizens of the Imperium
>> > So was Conan, There was a bunch plus in 1001
>> >
>> > Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai
>> >
>> > We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the
>> night
>> to
>> > visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)
>> >
>> > When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he
>> said:"I
>> > just drank what?"
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:58 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think Luke Skywalker was in 1001 Characters, or the other one like
>> it.
>> >>
>> >> I think the Traveller rules work just fine with Superhero storylines,
>> >> absent the superpower rules. It's just the superhero TONE that is not
>> >> "Travelleresque," by which I mean, not for official publication
>> >> alongside
>> >> the Lists of Emperors and Megacorps, but it works just fine for your
>> >> campaign.
>> >>
>> >> I recall when we had to come up with the name for the difficulty
>> level
>> >> above Difficult with the D20 rules some people were opposed to
>> >> "Impossible&quot; because it seemed too silly or cartoony. I liked it, and
>> at
>> >> the time there was a lot of angst in the game industry about having
>> to
>> >> make games more "heroic," so I said, "this will allow players in our
>> >> games
>> >> to do the Impossible, can't get more heroic than that." That
>> convinced
>> >> Les.
>> >>
>> >> > Of course a lot of this was part of that old Star Wars strand in
>> >> > Traveller, in which the Imperium was the Evil Empire. It produced
>> lots
>> >> of
>> >> > Han Soloes, but very few, umm, Princess Leias. Or even Luke
>> >> Skywalkers.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not many canonical Darth Vaders, though.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, moral ambiguity, but sometimes you just want Good and Evil.
>> >> >
>> >> > But ignore me, I've just spent the last decade playing superhero
>> >> games.
>> >> > I've managed to master-gearhead the Flash and Aquaman, and now I'm
>> >> bored.
>> >> >
>> >> > Time for Traveller again, or should I revisit Old School DnD
>> (because
>> >> the
>> >> > newer stuff melts my head, and my potential players haven't played
>> >> it)?
>> >> >
>> >> > Either way, I need easy freeform stupid rules, that don't get in
>> the
>> >> way
>> >> > of the jokes.
>> >> >
>> >> > And even when I'm playing historical miniatures, I'm not that
>> >> interested
>> >> > in looking up tables. My ideal game is Kampfgruppe Peiper on the
>> >> Kokoda
>> >> > Track, versus nearly anyone.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

Yes, I was trying to remember who had "every skill," and I knew it wasn't
the Lensman.

> As was Earl Dumarest from the Dumarest of Terra series, by E.C. Tubb.
> Everything in the book at skill level 5!
>
> Ensign Flandry was there as well.
>
> --
> "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> for
> it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
> kids pay for it."
>

Bingo! I could only think of "we had all the good songs."

> On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 16:44:47 -0500 (CDT), wrote:
>
>>I think Tom Lehrer did something along those lines. Maybe in "We Are the
>>Folksong Army."
>
> Yes:
>
> "...Remember the war against Franco;
> that's the kind where each of us belongs.
> Though he may have won all the battles
> we had all the good songs!..."
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller
> The Electronic Fan-Supported
> Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
>
>
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
>
>
>
> ®Traveller is a registered trademark of
> Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of
> the trademark in this notice and in the
> referenced materials is not intended to
> infringe or devalue the trademark.
>
> Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
> enterprises for hosting services:
>
> CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
> The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
>

Too bad someone didn't talk him out of Greedo shooting first.

Wherever you go there you are-Buckaroo Banzai

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to
visit violence on those who would do us harm. (Winston Churchill)

When in doubt I think of the immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I
just drank what?"

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:28 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:

>
>
> I thought it did, Starkiller would have as well. Good thing someone talked
> him out of that, people wouldn't want to go to Starkiller Ranch.
>
> > Yes, Vader had his psi listed, psi strength 10 I believe it was.
> >
> > --
> > "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> > for
> > it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
> > kids pay for it."
> >
>
>
>

A little late for a response, but I can’t help myself.

As a general comment, I have to say that the overall Rebellion made no sense. They had already gone through a Civil War period where many of the emperors were far worse than Lucan. That the Moot would refuse to confirm Lucan for the piddly little cause of allegedly murdering his brother is fantastical. It just wouldn't have bothered to come up. Since the military (in general) were firmly behind him, they would/should have simply just swallowed hard and confirmed him. Had that happen, then none of the other splinters would have happened, outside Dulinor, and Dulinor's domain would have been beaten down and reintegrated. (Assuming Dulinor wasn't deposed at some point to short-circuit the fight.) That's what would have reasonably happened had the Moot not gone completely and unjustifiably insane.

And, quite frankly, that still would have been a cool story. It wasn't a story the Rebellion writers wanted to do, but it would have still been a cool story and wouldn't have degenerated into the silliness we eventually got.

My comments on some of the characters …
> Strephon: AWOL, something a leader can never do and by the time he popped up, he had lost his people.

My reading of everything is that Strephon was supposed to be dead, and was only later retconned back to life. As a result, his story was always disjoint. While I would also be right there to blame him for disappearing, I can bring myself to criticize the character, since he was originally intended to just be dead. (That's the whole reason he was called the "Real" Strephon, including with the quotes, in the beginning: He was an obvious charlatan and no one was fooled.) The retcon always poisoned the character's storyline, which prevented it from ever making any sense.

Assuming that the Moot had confirmed Lucan, Strephon should have been assassinated the moment he made a reappearance (whether "real" or genuine).

> Norris: "We'll just be over here while you guys figure out who I should report to...." "Bad kitties!"
>
> As an aside, he should have been the one candidate for Emperor that Margaret, Strephon, the Vilani,
> Craig, and Brzk could agree on (the "hero of the Fifth Frontier War"), and that was perhaps a possible
> Rebellion wrap up opportunity lost. With that much backing, Norris could have rallied a massive fleet at
> Vland and then unseated Lucan.

No, he couldn't have. War hero or not, he was also a lowly subsector duke who lied and promoted himself to be Archduke over the his own sector duchess. He was probably too busy just holding his domain together and keeping the deception up to be able to risk moving on Capital. That vast majority of the other dukes in the domain were willing to buy the deception (probably knowing full well what he was doing) says a lot about his competition. Regardless, he had to spend too much effort to consolidate his power and keep his domain together to even try and think larger.

He was barely able to hold his own. He had no power base on which he could even pretend to move on Lucan. That is giving him too much retroactive power and not giving him the credit he actually deserves. His approach makes the most sense for his situation; when your foundation is a poorly hidden lie, you take what you got and work with it. He did do a good job.

> Dulinor: When you plot to murder the emperor, be prepared to stick around and do more than have a
> photo-op on the throne.

Here's the thing about the assassination. If you are going to assassinate the Emperor, you have to stay put and take on all comers to keep the job. The moment he fled he forfeited his "right of assassination". The moment he fled he became nothing more than a murderer. And that should have been blatantly obvious all around. Quite frankly, after his return to Illesh and after everyone found out what he did and how he did it, there should have been a quiet coup. He was just a common murderer and he needed to be treated as such. That he admitted it and bragged about it, then ran like a coward showed just how incompetent and foolish of a leader he was. The moment he left Capital after the assassination was the moment he forfeited any shred of legitimacy. That he was never called on it was a huge weakness in the story.

Dulinor wasn't evil; he was an idiot. That he never actually gets called on how he completely screwed up the whole "succession by assassination" process is utterly amazing.

(In case someone tries to call me on it, the Moot would have accepted Lucan because the murder of his brother was alleged and unproven, and he was the only legitimate heir. Dulinor was a self-admitted murderer of the Emperor who even took video and selfies of his act. Then he ran away instead of defending his claim. One is allegedly a murderous slime; the other is an admitted assassin who is demonstrably a moron.)

This last comment has nothing to do with the Rebellion. It is more a comment about aliens.
> The K'kree: I can't even stand PETA, let alone... Seriously, I found the K'kree so unlikeable I didn't
> even buy the original alien sourcebook for them. I'm not alone.

If the K'kree can regularly provoke that type of reaction in players, then it means they were written effectively and are great aliens for the setting. The fact that they were perennially ignored and misused is the real shame on the whole thing. They were perfect villains that were just never really used properly, except by the Keiths once. They didn't need to be "borged" to be dangerous and horrible; they were that way already. It is just that no one took advantage of them in the setting to really make use of them prior to "Lords of Thunder".

Mike West

Clarification, Earl Dumarest had every skill in the book at level 5, except
for Navigation. He had that only at level 1. so he never could find his way
home. That makes me want to go back and find the books and start enjoying
them again!

--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."

The good thing that the fictional characters did was to alert me to the existence of the Anthony Villiers novels.

Unfortunately I eventually loaned my copy of Masque World to someone who didn't give it back. And, of course, it's the rare one. :( :(

Panshin's Imperium could quite easily have been substituted for the 3I, but it would have been difficult to have written scenarios for. While it had its obvious scoundrels, PCs were generally meant to be better, even if not entirely free of dodginess.

Apparently talking to small pink clouds was a worthwhile activity in the Villiers universe. At least if you were a Trog.

A simplified Rebellion could have featured the Main Event (Lucan versus Dulinor), plus a bunch of opportunistic invasions, mainly the Solomani, but also surprisingly capable Vargr and Aslan incursions.

"Hang on! The Vargr aren't supposed to be able to rout Imperial battlefleets! WTH? Everyone knows that Vargr are idiots who can never get their act together on a large scale!" etc.

A massive outbreak of internal intrigue would have been possible. Even if everyone assumed Dulinor was doomed - which would have ensured he was - plenty of local score settling could have taken place "while nobody was looking".

And the "Real" Strephon could easily have appeared once it turned out that Lucan was a Nero-esque bonehead.

And once you have one coup, another one becomes possible. The Imperial throne could easily have become part of a game of musical chairs.

I'm not sure that would have resulted in the fragmented Imperium that the Rebellion was supposedly supposed to create, but it would certainly have created havoc.

And, frankly, as a Traveller fan at the time, although one on the other side of the world, I wasn't exactly champing at the bit for the Imperium to be blown up. Although, of course, I was grognard enough both to love the canon and be able to create my own universe, just like it was done in the 70s.

Frankly, I like the TU as a piece of literature. I don't really need it to play the game. It's nice to have a common point of reference with other people though, especially people I haven't played with before. It's like a more obscure version of "it's the Star Trek/Wars/Gate/Search universe. You know how it works". Yes, that was a Simpsons joke.

I wrote:
---
And, frankly, as a Traveller fan at the time, although one on the other side of the world, I wasn't exactly champing at the bit for the Imperium to be blown up. Although, of course, I was grognard enough both to love the canon and be able to create my own universe, just like it was done in the 70s.
---

Of course the market had shifted by then, so original grognard players like me weren't as important in terms of who Traveller needed to market itself to. It needed new people - the kind being attracted by other games on the market at the time.

>From memory, back then it was Cyberpunk and Battletech. And Star Frontiers, although I don't recall it being particularly popular in Australia.

Before Magic the Addiction, obviously.

I wrote :
The good thing that the fictional characters did
---

Because the ones randomly generated were real.

I couldn't think of a clever way of saying: "the ones derived from published or produced fiction" or, you know what I mean.

But I like the implication that the random numbers are real. Thumbs up to me, in my opinion, anyway.