No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (0.4
to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a
mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be
within its habitable zone.
No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation
procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear.
Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close
that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers. For me, this
latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an
M8 V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065
AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers
are telling us.
It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's
garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing
them up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality
is saying that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds
in orbits we didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But
if all planets orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been
argued by some astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ),
then you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So
there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it
towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards
the inner edge of the HZ and useblack body temp calculations.
I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because
it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian
orbits are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's
WTH spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature
profiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring
reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an
alternative system generating procedure?
My thought is simple. And it is based on the fact that I tried maybe harder
than anyone to more "accurize" system generation by changing star types.
Whether or not I went far enough or not far enough, the point is that I
committed heresy against the Holy DGP Glitchy data swamp.
It's just a game, and reality is just reality. I don't care how many times
you revise the system to "catch up to" current science, you won't ever
catch up, and there's an "official" universe that is just the way that it
is. Marc could do some meta "which system generation system do I use"
profile: "classic," "New 'realistic,'" "Current as of 28 March 2017," and
so on, but it's wasted effort. Someday we'll all die and no one will care
how Traveller generated systems. And even if you did, half of the players
would say, "it's no longer Traveller." And the other half would say, "You
Bastards! You're treating us as a bunch of Cash Cows(R) making us buy all
the revised rules, but don't you ever be scientifically inaccurate!"
The systems are already not where they really are, they're all in a plane,
they're all spaced at perfect integer numbers of parsecs away from each
other, there's no such thing as jump drive, computers and anything
computer-related appears to be way off. Traveller is a game about Space
Opera; harder-edged space opera of the Poul Anderson variety, but space
opera. It has always tried to stand pretty close to actual science which is
nice, but is not infinitely extensible. And it has finally officially been
divorced from reality. Divorce sucks, but divorce happens. I admire the way
Traveller tries to remain near real science, and admire the way Traveller
players want to keep the official campaign stuff regularized, but you can't
do both forever. Traveller is a game whose quality....really comes down to
the place it holds in our hearts.
It's why we pushed T2K into an alternative universe that diverged at
Yeltsin, because we couldn't update the game's back-story every week. Same
thing here, as science is speeding up to the rate where it's like current
events.
That's my barf. Feel free to hate me, I'd be disappointed if no one did.
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:25 PM, DED [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (0.4
> to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a mere
> 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be within its
> habitable zone.
>
> No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation
> procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear.
> Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close
> that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers. For me, this
> latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8
> V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's
> closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
>
> It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's
> garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing them
> up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality is saying
> that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds in orbits we
> didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But if all planets
> orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by some
> astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
>
> I'm at a loss as to what to do.
>
> If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ), then
> you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So there's
> no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it towards the
> outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards the inner edge
> of the HZ and use black body temp calculations.
>
> I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because
> it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits
> are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTH
> spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature profiles, but
> now that too seems like a lost cause.
>
> So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring
> reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an
> alternative system generating procedure?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
>
The Traveller system generation method was always an approximation. Even
today we do not have a full map of every star in the galaxy let along a
accessible catalog of ever celestial body in those systems. Just because
something is improbable does not mean its impossible.
I think as mentioned already Traveller is a game and a fictional game at
that.
--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.
Don't forget to take into account the inherent flaws of the Keplar system.
1 - It relies solely on the transit method, which means it's not going to see 90% of the systems out there because we need to be looking edge on to the planetary disk. Our own solar system is tilted roughly 90 degrees to the galactic plane.
It requires 3 confirmable transits. This means something at the Earths orbit would take 3-4 years to confirm it's existence with Kepler and something at Jupiters orbit would require 36-48 years to confirm. The system is really weighted towards finding things orbiting inside of Mercurys orbit.
Large objects are vastly easier to detect as they block more light so of course we're going to spot hot jovians first.
When the Webb telescope has been operational for 15-20 years we may have a totally different view on exo-planets.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...
> On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:44, David Nilsen [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> My thought is simple. And it is based on the fact that I tried maybe harder than anyone to more "accurize" system generation by changing star types. Whether or not I went far enough or not far enough, the point is that I committed heresy against the Holy DGP Glitchy data swamp.
>
> It's just a game, and reality is just reality. I don't care how many times you revise the system to "catch up to" current science, you won't ever catch up, and there's an "official" universe that is just the way that it is. Marc could do some meta "which system generation system do I use" profile: "classic," "New 'realistic,'" "Current as of 28 March 2017," and so on, but it's wasted effort. Someday we'll all die and no one will care how Traveller generated systems. And even if you did, half of the players would say, "it's no longer Traveller." And the other half would say, "You Bastards! You're treating us as a bunch of Cash Cows(R) making us buy all the revised rules, but don't you ever be scientifically inaccurate!"
>
> The systems are already not where they really are, they're all in a plane, they're all spaced at perfect integer numbers of parsecs away from each other, there's no such thing as jump drive, computers and anything computer-related appears to be way off. Traveller is a game about Space Opera; harder-edged space opera of the Poul Anderson variety, but space opera. It has always tried to stand pretty close to actual science which is nice, but is not infinitely extensible. And it has finally officially been divorced from reality. Divorce sucks, but divorce happens. I admire the way Traveller tries to remain near real science, and admire the way Traveller players want to keep the official campaign stuff regularized, but you can't do both forever. Traveller is a game whose quality....really comes down to the place it holds in our hearts.
>
> It's why we pushed T2K into an alternative universe that diverged at Yeltsin, because we couldn't update the game's back-story every week. Same thing here, as science is speeding up to the rate where it's like current events.
>
> That's my barf. Feel free to hate me, I'd be disappointed if no one did.
>
>> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:25 PM, DED [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (0.4 to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be within its habitable zone.
>>
>> No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear. Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers. For me, this latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8 V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
>>
>> It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing them up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality is saying that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds in orbits we didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But if all planets orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by some astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
>>
>> I'm at a loss as to what to do.
>>
>> If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ), then you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards the inner edge of the HZ and use black body temp calculations.
>>
>> I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTH spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature profiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
>>
>> So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an alternative system generating procedure?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>>
>
>
Sadly when you're relying upon a sample of 1 to create scientific or game data you're going to come up with some pretty kookie theories in hindsight.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...
> On Mar 28, 2017, at 21:53, Derek Stanley [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> Don't forget to take into account the inherent flaws of the Keplar system.
>
> 1 - It relies solely on the transit method, which means it's not going to see 90% of the systems out there because we need to be looking edge on to the planetary disk. Our own solar system is tilted roughly 90 degrees to the galactic plane.
>
> It requires 3 confirmable transits. This means something at the Earths orbit would take 3-4 years to confirm it's existence with Kepler and something at Jupiters orbit would require 36-48 years to confirm. The system is really weighted towards finding things orbiting inside of Mercurys orbit.
>
> Large objects are vastly easier to detect as they block more light so of course we're going to spot hot jovians first.
>
> When the Webb telescope has been operational for 15-20 years we may have a totally different view on exo-planets.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
>> On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:44, David Nilsen [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> My thought is simple. And it is based on the fact that I tried maybe harder than anyone to more "accurize" system generation by changing star types. Whether or not I went far enough or not far enough, the point is that I committed heresy against the Holy DGP Glitchy data swamp.
>>
>> It's just a game, and reality is just reality. I don't care how many times you revise the system to "catch up to" current science, you won't ever catch up, and there's an "official" universe that is just the way that it is. Marc could do some meta "which system generation system do I use" profile: "classic," "New 'realistic,'" "Current as of 28 March 2017," and so on, but it's wasted effort. Someday we'll all die and no one will care how Traveller generated systems. And even if you did, half of the players would say, "it's no longer Traveller." And the other half would say, "You Bastards! You're treating us as a bunch of Cash Cows(R) making us buy all the revised rules, but don't you ever be scientifically inaccurate!"
>>
>> The systems are already not where they really are, they're all in a plane, they're all spaced at perfect integer numbers of parsecs away from each other, there's no such thing as jump drive, computers and anything computer-related appears to be way off. Traveller is a game about Space Opera; harder-edged space opera of the Poul Anderson variety, but space opera. It has always tried to stand pretty close to actual science which is nice, but is not infinitely extensible. And it has finally officially been divorced from reality. Divorce sucks, but divorce happens. I admire the way Traveller tries to remain near real science, and admire the way Traveller players want to keep the official campaign stuff regularized, but you can't do both forever. Traveller is a game whose quality....really comes down to the place it holds in our hearts.
>>
>> It's why we pushed T2K into an alternative universe that diverged at Yeltsin, because we couldn't update the game's back-story every week. Same thing here, as science is speeding up to the rate where it's like current events.
>>
>> That's my barf. Feel free to hate me, I'd be disappointed if no one did.
>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:25 PM, DED [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (0.4 to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be within its habitable zone.
>>>
>>> No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear. Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers For me, this latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8 V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
>>>
>>> It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing them up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality is saying that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds in orbits we didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But if all planets orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by some astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
>>>
>>> I'm at a loss as to what to do.
>>>
>>> If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ), then you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards the inner edge of the HZ and use black body temp calculations.
>>>
>>> I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTH spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature profiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
>>>
>>> So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an alternative system generating procedure?
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> \_/
>>> DED
>>> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>>>
>>
>
>
>> When the Webb telescope has been operational for 15-20 years we may have
a totally different view on exo-planets.
And THEN we can rewrite the Traveller system generation system once and for
all! :-)
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 12:52 AM, Derek Stanley
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> Don't forget to take into account the inherent flaws of the Keplar system.
>
> 1 - It relies solely on the transit method, which means it's not going to
> see 90% of the systems out there because we need to be looking edge on to
> the planetary disk. Our own solar system is tilted roughly 90 degrees to
> the galactic plane.
>
> It requires 3 confirmable transits. This means something at the Earths
> orbit would take 3-4 years to confirm it's existence with Kepler and
> something at Jupiters orbit would require 36-48 years to confirm. The
> system is really weighted towards finding things orbiting inside of
> Mercurys orbit.
>
> Large objects are vastly easier to detect as they block more light so of
> course we're going to spot hot jovians first.
>
> When the Webb telescope has been operational for 15-20 years we may have a
> totally different view on exo-planets.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:44, David Nilsen
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
>
> My thought is simple. And it is based on the fact that I tried maybe
> harder than anyone to more "accurize" system generation by changing star
> types. Whether or not I went far enough or not far enough, the point is
> that I committed heresy against the Holy DGP Glitchy data swamp.
>
> It's just a game, and reality is just reality. I don't care how many times
> you revise the system to "catch up to" current science, you won't ever
> catch up, and there's an "official" universe that is just the way that it
> is. Marc could do some meta "which system generation system do I use"
> profile: "classic," "New 'realistic,'" "Current as of 28 March 2017," and
> so on, but it's wasted effort. Someday we'll all die and no one will care
> how Traveller generated systems. And even if you did, half of the players
> would say, "it's no longer Traveller." And the other half would say, "You
> Bastards! You're treating us as a bunch of Cash Cows(R) making us buy all
> the revised rules, but don't you ever be scientifically inaccurate!"
>
> The systems are already not where they really are, they're all in a plane,
> they're all spaced at perfect integer numbers of parsecs away from each
> other, there's no such thing as jump drive, computers and anything
> computer-related appears to be way off. Traveller is a game about Space
> Opera; harder-edged space opera of the Poul Anderson variety, but space
> opera. It has always tried to stand pretty close to actual science which is
> nice, but is not infinitely extensible. And it has finally officially been
> divorced from reality. Divorce sucks, but divorce happens. I admire the way
> Traveller tries to remain near real science, and admire the way Traveller
> players want to keep the official campaign stuff regularized, but you can't
> do both forever. Traveller is a game whose quality....really comes down to
> the place it holds in our hearts.
>
> It's why we pushed T2K into an alternative universe that diverged at
> Yeltsin, because we couldn't update the game's back-story every week. Same
> thing here, as science is speeding up to the rate where it's like current
> events.
>
> That's my barf. Feel free to hate me, I'd be disappointed if no one did.
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:25 PM, DED [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (0.4
>> to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a mere
>> 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be within its
>> habitable zone.
>>
>> No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation
>> procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear.
>> Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close
>> that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers. For me, this
>> latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8
>> V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's
>> closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
>>
>> It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's
>> garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing them
>> up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality is saying
>> that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds in orbits we
>> didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But if all planets
>> orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by some
>> astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
>>
>> I'm at a loss as to what to do.
>>
>> If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ), then
>> you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So there's
>> no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it towards the
>> outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards the inner edge
>> of the HZ and use black body temp calculations.
>>
>> I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because
>> it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits
>> are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTH
>> spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature profiles, but
>> now that too seems like a lost cause.
>>
>> So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring
>> reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an
>> alternative system generating procedure?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>>
>
>
>
I tend not to use star system data in my games these days. The planets are where the players hang out on so that's where I concentrate my details.
In the early days I used to love system generation, I had a fascination with astronomy. Not so much these days, I look at the worlds and the people and places on and around them. I also tend to fuzz over the time in between worlds, unless I want to make a situation of that. I had a bar fight break out between passengers just to keep the crew on their toes.
I also like the design ideas behind the show Firefly, you want dozens of planets and hundreds of moons in your system, sure why not!
Brett.
---In , <dedly@...> wrote :
Hi all,
No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (04 to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be within its habitable zone.
No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear. Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers. For me, this latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8 V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing them up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality is saying that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds in orbits we didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But if all planets orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by some astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ), then you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards the inner edge of the HZ and use black body temp calculations.
I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTH spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature profiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an alternative system generating procedure?
I've been wondering when this would come up here...
Trappist-1 doesn't actually break anything completely if you treat it like a large gas giant instead of a Sun-sized star for purposes of determining orbits. As an M8V star, Trappist-1 is approximately 8% the mass of and 11% the radius of the Sun. However, it's only slightly larger than Jupiter (while having 84 times the mass, starting nuclear fusion the natural the way that Gerrr...science intended requires a lot of pressure).
So think Regina, not Terra.
I'll grant you however the rules need a tweak, especially for stars at the lower end of the mass scale. Traveller rules don't take into account flare stars (at least they didn't as of 20 years ago). M-type stars are more subject to flares than stars like the Sun, and indications are that Trappist-1 might be one of them, though its flares have been observed so far as being very weak. Frequent flares and large magnetic fields around a star with close in planets can render those planets sterile hunks of rock and nothing more. At this point we don't know for certain if any of those planets around Trappist-1 qualify as anything more than hunks of rock in space, or if any of them could be terraformed into something more at some point in the very, very distant future, or if they are just fine "as is" (don't hold your breath).
As far where on your friendly "Traveller Map" site you'll find Trappist-1, to be honest there's not a great candidate system for it, but one can approximate it as being located in the Weipu system, if you assume that the K8 V star there isn't actually a binary companion, but is simply a ship passing in the night.
Don't panic and throw your star charts away, and always remember your towel.
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:47 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
I tend not to use star system data in my games these days. The planets are where the players hang out on so that's where I concentrate my details.
In the early days I used to love system generation, I had a fascination with astronomy. Not so much these days, I look at the worlds and the people and places on and around them. I also tend to fuzz over the time in between worlds, unless I want to make a situation of that. I had a bar fight break out between passengers just to keep the crew on their toes.
I also like the design ideas behind the show Firefly, you want dozens of planets and hundreds of moons in your system, sure why not!
Brett.
---In , <dedly@...> wrote :
Hi all,
No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of sevenEarth-sized (0.4 to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8V red dwarf that's a mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, threeare considered to be within its habitable zone.
No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's systemgeneration procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kickedinto high gear. Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting theirparent star so close that they make Mercury seem like its out inthe bleachers. For me, this latest discovery is the last straw.It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8 V can have a habitablezone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for thegame's garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cindersby goosing them up to something that actually puts out some heat,and now reality is saying that these snowballs actually havehabitable zones with worlds in orbits we didn't think possible (atleast by the game's rules). But if all planets orbiting close tored dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by someastronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone(HZ), then you can put worlds wherever you want around any staryou want. So there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a coolerworld? Push it towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hotworld? Push it towards the inner edge of the HZ and use black bodytemp calculations.
I'm tempted to delete allstellar data from all systems I create because it all just seemsmeaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits are nowsimplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTHspreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperatureprofiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are youignoring reality because it's too complicated to game, or are youworking with an alternative system generating procedure?
Thoughts?
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin #yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709 -- #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp #yiv8714206709hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp #yiv8714206709ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc #yiv8714206709hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc .yiv8714206709ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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When I saw the story multiple times on TV and read about it in the paper
and several magazines, the only thing I could think about was Traveller
system generation and how this would affect that.
Then I realized 1) what I said previously, and 2) not my job any more.
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> I've been wondering when this would come up here...
>
> Trappist-1 doesn't actually break anything completely if you treat it like
> a large gas giant instead of a Sun-sized star for purposes of determining
> orbits. As an M8V star, Trappist-1 is approximately 8% the mass of and 11%
> the radius of the Sun. However, it's only slightly larger than Jupiter
> (while having 84 times the mass, starting nuclear fusion the natural the
> way that Gerrr...science intended requires a lot of pressure).
>
> So think Regina, not Terra.
>
> I'll grant you however the rules need a tweak, especially for stars at the
> lower end of the mass scale. Traveller rules don't take into account flare
> stars (at least they didn't as of 20 years ago). M-type stars are more
> subject to flares than stars like the Sun, and indications are that
> Trappist-1 might be one of them, though its flares have been observed so
> far as being very weak. Frequent flares and large magnetic fields around a
> star with close in planets can render those planets sterile hunks of rock
> and nothing more. At this point we don't know for certain if any of those
> planets around Trappist-1 qualify as anything more than hunks of rock in
> space, or if any of them could be terraformed into something more at some
> point in the very, very distant future, or if they are just fine "as is"
> (don't hold your breath).
>
> As far where on your friendly "Traveller Map" site you'll find Trappist-1,
> to be honest there's not a great candidate system for it, but one can
> approximate it as being located in the Weipu system, if you assume that the
> K8 V star there isn't actually a binary companion, but is simply a ship
> passing in the night.
>
> Don't panic and throw your star charts away, and always remember your
> towel.
>
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:47 AM, "
> [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>
> I tend not to use star system data in my games these days. The planets are
> where the players hang out on so that's where I concentrate my details.
>
> In the early days I used to love system generation, I had a fascination
> with astronomy. Not so much these days, I look at the worlds and the people
> and places on and around them. I also tend to fuzz over the time in between
> worlds, unless I want to make a situation of that. I had a bar fight break
> out between passengers just to keep the crew on their toes.
>
> I also like the design ideas behind the show Firefly, you want dozens of
> planets and hundreds of moons in your system, sure why not!
>
> Brett.
>
> ---In , <dedly@...> wrote :
>
> Hi all,
>
> No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of seven Earth-sized (0.4
> to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8 V red dwarf that's a mere
> 40 light years away. Of the seven, three are considered to be within its
> habitable zone.
>
> No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's system generation
> procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kicked into high gear
> Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting their parent star so close
> that they make Mercury seem like its out in the bleachers. For me, this
> latest discovery is the last straw. It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8
> V can have a habitable zone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's
> closest orbit is 0.2 AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
>
> It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for the game's
> garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cinders by goosing them
> up to something that actually puts out some heat, and now reality is saying
> that these snowballs actually have habitable zones with worlds in orbits we
> didn't think possible (at least by the game's rules). But if all planets
> orbiting close to red dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by some
> astronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
>
> I'm at a loss as to what to do.
>
> If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone (HZ), then
> you can put worlds wherever you want around any star you want. So there's
> no need for hard-coded rules. Want a cooler world? Push it towards the
> outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hot world? Push it towards the inner edge
> of the HZ and use black body temp calculations.
>
> I'm tempted to delete all stellar data from all systems I create because
> it all just seems meaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits
> are now simplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTH
> spreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperature profiles, but
> now that too seems like a lost cause.
>
> So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are you ignoring
> reality because it's too complicated to game, or are you working with an
> alternative system generating procedure?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
>
>
>
Hmmm... reality is more amazing than fiction and we've just proven it with the Traveller system gen rules and the Trappist system :)
I'd say stick with the sysgen rules as is but feel far freer to move things around as needed. You can always hand wave that nature keep throwing up surprises! Or just expand the LZ for the little stars.
Oh, come on, Matt, are you sure you can't hate me? Seriously, thanks for
not, it makes my life warmer.
I like the previous idea (or at least the way I understand it) about
inserting "weird-ass" generation systems to allow things like Trappist.
That gives GM prerogative to create those systems we've recently
seen...though it don't solve the Third Imperium, which is doomed to
infinite correction if you want to try. I believe that philosophically it
is not worth it, unless, philosophically, your Traveller campaign is about
portraying the future as accurately as possible, in which case you don't
have time to read this e-mail.
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:21 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Hmmm... reality is more amazing than fiction and we've just proven it with
> the Traveller system gen rules and the Trappist system :)
>
>
> I'd say stick with the sysgen rules as is but feel far freer to move
> things around as needed. You can always hand wave that nature keep
> throwing up surprises! Or just expand the LZ for the little stars.
>
>
> And no Dave, we don't hate you over here :)
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
Honestly I have never used System generation as anything more than a set of
guidelines, at best. The base system always felt a little thin on the
ground.
I took to metaphorically throwing darts at each system and figured out what
was interesting.
To be honest there were huge cracks in the base of the system even when TNE
was written. But it still has a bunch of useful bits.
That reminds me of something I meant to say in a previous post
The way T works is that each system = one world and that is the world where
players go, and ignore the rest of the system. They go to the starport
lowest in the alphabet, and the rest of it really doesn't matter to any of
the players. I think it matters most to the GMs. And then they fly off to
the next place, which is, to them, the primary habitable world as opposed
to the system. As a general rule they don't even see the system unless you
as the GM force them to.
On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Evyn MacDude
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Honestly I have never used System generation as anything more than a set
> of guidelines, at best. The base system always felt a little thin on the
> ground.
>
> I took to metaphorically throwing darts at each system and figured out
> what was interesting.
>
> To be honest there were huge cracks in the base of the system even when
> TNE was written. But it still has a bunch of useful bits.
>
>
> --
> Evyn
>
>
>
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:14 PM, David Nilsen
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> That reminds me of something I meant to say in a previous post.
>
> The way T works is that each system = one world and that is the world
> where players go, and ignore the rest of the system. They go to the
> starport lowest in the alphabet, and the rest of it really doesn't matter
> to any of the players. I think it matters most to the GMs. And then they
> fly off to the next place, which is, to them, the primary habitable world
> as opposed to the system. As a general rule they don't even see the system
> unless you as the GM force them to.
>
>> Exactly. We had a two year long Merchants in Wartime campaign where we
didn't hit any of the Main Worlds over the Ten systems that were the area
of the campaign except when we needed to get a ship serviced.
Good time to point out that Neptune isn't actually where it's "supposed" to be?
The bottom line is that unless you are doing something that totally flies in the face of basic physics, getting creative is fine. It also doesn't hurt to do a bit of research and if you are so inclined, visit your local astronomy buff/expert/professor that runs the local observatory at a natural history museum or university for a reality check. I did that back when I was doing all my research on the M-type white dwarfs that Traveller's star system generation table popped out (and no, they still don't belong). Aside from being pleasantly surprised that someone else actually takes an interest in the subject, you'll get to see some cool stuff.
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 10:21 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
Hmmm... reality is more amazing than fiction and we've just proven it with the Traveller system gen rules and the Trappist system :)
I'd say stick with the sysgen rules as is but feel far freer to move things around as needed. You can always hand wave that nature keep throwing up surprises! Or just expand the LZ for the little stars.
And no Dave, we don't hate you over here :)
Matt
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