I've been wondering when this would come up here...
Trappist-1 doesn't actually break anything completely if you treat it like a large gas giant instead of a Sun-sized star for purposes of determining orbits. As an M8V star, Trappist-1 is approximately 8% the mass of and 11% the radius of the Sun. However, it's only slightly larger than Jupiter (while having 84 times the mass, starting nuclear fusion the natural the way that Gerrr...science intended requires a lot of pressure).
So think Regina, not Terra.
I'll grant you however the rules need a tweak, especially for stars at the lower end of the mass scale. Traveller rules don't take into account flare stars (at least they didn't as of 20 years ago). M-type stars are more subject to flares than stars like the Sun, and indications are that Trappist-1 might be one of them, though its flares have been observed so far as being very weak. Frequent flares and large magnetic fields around a star with close in planets can render those planets sterile hunks of rock and nothing more. At this point we don't know for certain if any of those planets around Trappist-1 qualify as anything more than hunks of rock in space, or if any of them could be terraformed into something more at some point in the very, very distant future, or if they are just fine "as is" (don't hold your breath).
As far where on your friendly "Traveller Map" site you'll find Trappist-1, to be honest there's not a great candidate system for it, but one can approximate it as being located in the Weipu system, if you assume that the K8 V star there isn't actually a binary companion, but is simply a ship passing in the night.
Don't panic and throw your star charts away, and always remember your towel.
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:47 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
I tend not to use star system data in my games these days. The planets are where the players hang out on so that's where I concentrate my details.
In the early days I used to love system generation, I had a fascination with astronomy. Not so much these days, I look at the worlds and the people and places on and around them. I also tend to fuzz over the time in between worlds, unless I want to make a situation of that. I had a bar fight break out between passengers just to keep the crew on their toes.
I also like the design ideas behind the show Firefly, you want dozens of planets and hundreds of moons in your system, sure why not!
Brett.
---In , <dedly@...> wrote :
Hi all,
No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of sevenEarth-sized (0.4 to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8V red dwarf that's a mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, threeare considered to be within its habitable zone.
No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's systemgeneration procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kickedinto high gear. Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting theirparent star so close that they make Mercury seem like its out inthe bleachers. For me, this latest discovery is the last straw.It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8 V can have a habitablezone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for thegame's garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cindersby goosing them up to something that actually puts out some heat,and now reality is saying that these snowballs actually havehabitable zones with worlds in orbits we didn't think possible (atleast by the game's rules). But if all planets orbiting close tored dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by someastronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone(HZ), then you can put worlds wherever you want around any staryou want. So there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a coolerworld? Push it towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hotworld? Push it towards the inner edge of the HZ and use black bodytemp calculations.
I'm tempted to delete allstellar data from all systems I create because it all just seemsmeaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits are nowsimplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTHspreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperatureprofiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are youignoring reality because it's too complicated to game, or are youworking with an alternative system generating procedure?
Thoughts?
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin #yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709 -- #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp #yiv8714206709hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp #yiv8714206709ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc #yiv8714206709hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc .yiv8714206709ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Trappist-1 doesn't actually break anything completely if you treat it like a large gas giant instead of a Sun-sized star for purposes of determining orbits. As an M8V star, Trappist-1 is approximately 8% the mass of and 11% the radius of the Sun. However, it's only slightly larger than Jupiter (while having 84 times the mass, starting nuclear fusion the natural the way that Gerrr...science intended requires a lot of pressure).
So think Regina, not Terra.
I'll grant you however the rules need a tweak, especially for stars at the lower end of the mass scale. Traveller rules don't take into account flare stars (at least they didn't as of 20 years ago). M-type stars are more subject to flares than stars like the Sun, and indications are that Trappist-1 might be one of them, though its flares have been observed so far as being very weak. Frequent flares and large magnetic fields around a star with close in planets can render those planets sterile hunks of rock and nothing more. At this point we don't know for certain if any of those planets around Trappist-1 qualify as anything more than hunks of rock in space, or if any of them could be terraformed into something more at some point in the very, very distant future, or if they are just fine "as is" (don't hold your breath).
As far where on your friendly "Traveller Map" site you'll find Trappist-1, to be honest there's not a great candidate system for it, but one can approximate it as being located in the Weipu system, if you assume that the K8 V star there isn't actually a binary companion, but is simply a ship passing in the night.
Don't panic and throw your star charts away, and always remember your towel.
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:47 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
I tend not to use star system data in my games these days. The planets are where the players hang out on so that's where I concentrate my details.
In the early days I used to love system generation, I had a fascination with astronomy. Not so much these days, I look at the worlds and the people and places on and around them. I also tend to fuzz over the time in between worlds, unless I want to make a situation of that. I had a bar fight break out between passengers just to keep the crew on their toes.
I also like the design ideas behind the show Firefly, you want dozens of planets and hundreds of moons in your system, sure why not!
Brett.
---In , <dedly@...> wrote :
Hi all,
No doubt that you've heard about the discovery of sevenEarth-sized (0.4 to 1.4 T-masses) worlds around Trappist-1, an M8V red dwarf that's a mere 40 light years away. Of the seven, threeare considered to be within its habitable zone.
No disrespect to the game's designers, but Traveller's systemgeneration procedure has been taking a beating since Kepler kickedinto high gear. Dozens of worlds have been revealed orbiting theirparent star so close that they make Mercury seem like its out inthe bleachers. For me, this latest discovery is the last straw.It's bizarre enough thinking that an M8 V can have a habitablezone, but seven worlds orbiting within 0.065 AU? Traveller's closest orbit is 0.2AU, but this is what astronomers are telling us.
It's funny. All these years I've been trying to correct for thegame's garden worlds that were placed around these pitiful cindersby goosing them up to something that actually puts out some heat,and now reality is saying that these snowballs actually havehabitable zones with worlds in orbits we didn't think possible (atleast by the game's rules). But if all planets orbiting close tored dwarves are tidelocked, as has been argued by someastronomers, does it matter? Are they really inhabitable?
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
If there are no set orbits and every star has a habitable zone(HZ), then you can put worlds wherever you want around any staryou want. So there's no need for hard-coded rules. Want a coolerworld? Push it towards the outer reaches of the HZ. Want a hotworld? Push it towards the inner edge of the HZ and use black bodytemp calculations.
I'm tempted to delete allstellar data from all systems I create because it all just seemsmeaningless. And Traveller's seemingly Keplerian orbits are nowsimplistic. I've struggled with modifying Nick Bradbeer's WTHspreadsheet to generate more accurate planetary temperatureprofiles, but now that too seems like a lost cause.
So what is everyone doing about this in their TUs? Are youignoring reality because it's too complicated to game, or are youworking with an alternative system generating procedure?
Thoughts?
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin #yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709 -- #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp #yiv8714206709hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp #yiv8714206709ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-mkp .yiv8714206709ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc #yiv8714206709hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8714206709 #yiv8714206709ygrp-sponsor #yiv8714206709ygrp-lc .yiv8714206709ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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