So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in
Traveller? Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable
impact on our current society (they in use /now/ but are largely the
province of hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be
available material. But I wonder if various nations will impose bans on
certain items. Here in the US, at least one guy has already made a gun
(I think it was a functioning replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong).
Is it possible that there will be protocols programmed in to prevent the
manufacture of firearms?
I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts?
If so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to
force starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed
retailer?
Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or
insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't
be made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the
machine makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem,
robots can load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what
to make.
Knowledge wants to be free. It's possible to make it not work out of the
box but trivial to circumvent. Exposes the fallacy of most gun control:
they're just not that complicated mechanically or chemically.
- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Feb 7, 2014 1:25 PM, "DED" <> wrote:
>
>
> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller?
> Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our
> current society (they in use *now* but are largely the province of
> hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material. But
> I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in the
> US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a functioning
> replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there will
> be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>
> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
> carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
> Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
> manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If
> so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force
> starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>
> Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or
> insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't be
> made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the machine
> makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem, robots can
> load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> \_/
> DED
>
>
Everything in Traveller is made of Latinum (or whatever that stuff is that
can't be made in Replicators), and Latinum won't work in 3D printers
either, dash the luck.
> Knowledge wants to be free. It's possible to make it not work out of the
> box but trivial to circumvent. Exposes the fallacy of most gun control:
> they're just not that complicated mechanically or chemically.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Feb 7, 2014 1:25 PM, "DED" <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in
>> Traveller?
>> Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our
>> current society (they in use *now* but are largely the province of
>> hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material.
>> But
>> I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in
>> the
>> US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a
>> functioning
>> replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there
>> will
>> be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>>
>> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
>> carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
>> Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
>> manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts?
>> If
>> so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force
>> starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>>
>> Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or
>> insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't
>> be
>> made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the machine
>> makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem, robots
>> can
>> load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>>
>>
>
He's made a receiver, the barrel no, but the receiver yes. I think his first attempt fell apart after about 4 rounds but he eventually made one he put about 400 rounds through. He's not actually printing an assembled receiver either afaik, it's parts thar he assembles and springs and such are purchased separately. I've seen an article on a company in Texas that built a ground up rifle on a printer, but the printer cost upwards of 5mill and the rifle was about 50k to mfg. An interesting tech experiment but again completely unviable. Also the springs in this one were purchased separately, the weapon was made as pieces that had to be individually finished and assembled.
Most of the barrel attempts I've seen have been useless after a single round.
To be honest I can see where in a dozen years you'll be able to print out the parts of a lot of things and maybe even have them finished in the machined so it's all just waiting to be assembled.
I can see in Traveller simply having a machine you can feed raw mats into (probably very specialized stuff) where you could print up spares and after market stuff. Lets face it every engineering area on every starship probably has a cabinet sized printer for mfg spares. Your printing limitations would basically be constrained by the materials aboard the ship.
Part of me relishes the idea of a stranded crew melting down the frame of Emperor Strephon's painting to make replacement parts.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 13:25, DED <> wrote:
>
> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller? Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our current society (they in use now but are largely the province of hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material. But I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in the US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a functioning replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there will be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>
> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts. Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>
> Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't be made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the machine makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem, robots can load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> \_/
> DED
>
>
I would look at them as a standard part of any machine shop installed on a
starship or in a starport, but with more advanced capabilities (not just
plastic based but would also include metal, ceramic paste/dust that can be
fused, etc.), capable of using multiple inputs to create more complex
objects, etc. They would be the workhorse for small repairs on board a ship
and an essential tool for the day to day maintenance of a working starship.
Also can be used to allow modifications or tweaks of equipment, provided
that someone, or a number of people, has the necessary skill level to do
so. Not as good as store-bought professionally made equipment, and
certainly not ruggedised to military standards, but a damn sight better
than duct tape, string and chewing gum.
For example someone wants to customise a new LAG they found in some
Hillbilly backwater of a planet, if one of the crew has a good enough
weapons skill/knowledge they can do handy things like craft a customised
stock, create a better scope mount, create a "side-saddle" spare ammo clip
(similar to shotguns)
Or someone has the genius idea (for certain values of genius) of
integrating a civilian micro-uav, a 3KM mini radio receiver and a single
frag grenade ... with a number of people with piloting/flying, electronics,
comms skills at an acceptable level you could create a new aerodynamic skin
to incorporate the grenade without messing up the flight characteristics
completely, a remotely controlled release system for the grenade that was
not going to be jammed by a local radio station, yet would not accidentally
fire when someone hit the remote for their garage door.
Of course it also allows complete unskilled novices to try and do any of
the above examples, with results that should require at least one roll on
the "Humiliating Failure With Permanent Scarring" fumble table.
On 7 February 2014 22:28, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>
> Knowledge wants to be free. It's possible to make it not work out of the
> box but trivial to circumvent. Exposes the fallacy of most gun control:
> they're just not that complicated mechanically or chemically.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Feb 7, 2014 1:25 PM, "DED" <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller?
>> Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our
>> current society (they in use *now* but are largely the province of
>> hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material. But
>> I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in the
>> US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a functioning
>> replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there will
>> be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>>
>> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
>> carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
>> Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
>> manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If
>> so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force
>> starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>>
>> Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or
>> insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't be
>> made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the machine
>> makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem, robots can
>> load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>>
>
>
In the USA the gun was a pistol about 95%+ plastic, and it did work. He had other plans out before he was shut down.
As for Traveller some things probably just couldn't be manufactured on site due to any number of factors. If it were programming the machine, or the lack thereof I expect some enterprising individuals would find a work around that problem and market it one way or another. But size and scarcity or difficulty in handling some materials on the other hand that would be a real limiting factor.
Tim
On Friday, February 7, 2014 2:57 PM, DEREK STANLEY <> wrote:
>He's made a receiver, the barrel no, but the receiver yes. I think his first attempt fell apart after about 4 rounds but he eventually made one he put about 400 rounds through. He's not actually printing an assembled receiver either afaik, it's parts thar he assembles and springs and such are purchased separately. I've seen an article on a company in Texas that built a ground up rifle on a printer, but the printer cost upwards of 5mill and the rifle was about 50k to mfg. An interesting tech experiment but again completely unviable. Also the springs in this one were purchased separately, the weapon was made as pieces that had to be individually finished and assembled.
>
>
>Most of the barrel attempts I've seen have been useless after a single round.
>
>
>To be honest I can see where in a dozen years you'll be able to print out the parts of a lot of things and maybe even have them finished in the machined so it's all just waiting to be assembled.
>
>
>I can see in Traveller simply having a machine you can feed raw mats into (probably very specialized stuff) where you could print up spares and after market stuff. Lets face it every engineering area on every starship probably has a cabinet sized printer for mfg spares. Your printing limitations would basically be constrained by the materials aboard the ship.
>
>
>Part of me relishes the idea of a stranded crew melting down the frame of Emperor Strephon's painting to make replacement parts.
>
>Derek Stanley
>Sent from my iPhone...
>
>On Feb 7, 2014, at 13:25, DED <> wrote:
>
>
>
>>So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller? Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our current society (they in use now but are largely the province of hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material. But I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in the US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a functioning replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there will be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>>
>>I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships
could carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to
small parts. Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger
parts. Will the manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that
make starship parts? If so, will the machines be programmed to
prohibit those designs to force starships to buy directly from the
manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>>
>>Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant
populations or insufficient local tech levels get around these
limitations? Parts can't be made locally? No problem, we just need
the raw materials and the machine makes them. Insufficient
population for a workforce? No problem, robots can load the
machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>\_/
>>DED
>>
>
>
>
On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
>
>
> In the USA the gun was a pistol about 95%+ plastic, and it did work. He
> had other plans out before he was shut down.
> As for Traveller some things probably just couldn't be manufactured on
> site due to any number of factors. If it were programming the machine, or
> the lack thereof I expect some enterprising individuals would find a work
> around that problem and market it one way or another. But size and
> scarcity or difficulty in handling some materials on the other hand that
> would be a real limiting factor.
> Tim
>
>
> On Friday, February 7, 2014 2:57 PM, DEREK STANLEY <>
> wrote:
>
>
> He's made a receiver, the barrel no, but the receiver yes. I think his
> first attempt fell apart after about 4 rounds but he eventually made one he
> put about 400 rounds through. He's not actually printing an assembled
> receiver either afaik, it's parts thar he assembles and springs and such
> are purchased separately. I've seen an article on a company in Texas that
> built a ground up rifle on a printer, but the printer cost upwards of 5mill
> and the rifle was about 50k to mfg. An interesting tech experiment but
> again completely unviable. Also the springs in this one were purchased
> separately, the weapon was made as pieces that had to be individually
> finished and assembled.
>
> Most of the barrel attempts I've seen have been useless after a single
> round.
>
> To be honest I can see where in a dozen years you'll be able to print out
> the parts of a lot of things and maybe even have them finished in the
> machined so it's all just waiting to be assembled.
>
> I can see in Traveller simply having a machine you can feed raw mats into
> (probably very specialized stuff) where you could print up spares and after
> market stuff. Lets face it every engineering area on every starship
> probably has a cabinet sized printer for mfg spares. Your printing
> limitations would basically be constrained by the materials aboard the
> ship.
>
> Part of me relishes the idea of a stranded crew melting down the frame of
> Emperor Strephon's painting to make replacement parts.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 13:25, DED <> wrote:
>
>
> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in
> Traveller? Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact
> on our current society (they in use *now* but are largely the province of
> hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material. But
> I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in the
> US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a functioning
> replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there will
> be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>
> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
> carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
> Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
> manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If
> so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force
> starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>
> Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or
> insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't be
> made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the machine
> makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem, robots can
> load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> \_/
> DED
>
>
>
>
>
Thats the one I was thinking of, Colt 1911 not a rifle... I was remembering wrong.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
>
> Metal 3D printed gun: http://goo.gl/124flS
>
> --
> Mario
>
> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
>> On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
>>
>> In the USA the gun was a pistol about 95%+ plastic, and it did work. He had other plans out before he was shut down.
>> As for Traveller some things probably just couldn't be manufactured on site due to any number of factors. If it were programming the machine, or the lack thereof I expect some enterprising individuals would find a work around that problem and market it one way or another. But size and scarcity or difficulty in handling some materials on the other hand that would be a real limiting factor.
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 7, 2014 2:57 PM, DEREK STANLEY <> wrote:
>>
>> He's made a receiver, the barrel no, but the receiver yes. I think his first attempt fell apart after about 4 rounds but he eventually made one he put about 400 rounds through. He's not actually printing an assembled receiver either afaik, it's parts thar he assembles and springs and such are purchased separately. I've seen an article on a company in Texas that built a ground up rifle on a printer, but the printer cost upwards of 5mill and the rifle was about 50k to mfg. An interesting tech experiment but again completely unviable. Also the springs in this one were purchased separately, the weapon was made as pieces that had to be individually finished and assembled.
>>
>> Most of the barrel attempts I've seen have been useless after a single round.
>>
>> To be honest I can see where in a dozen years you'll be able to print out the parts of a lot of things and maybe even have them finished in the machined so it's all just waiting to be assembled.
>>
>> I can see in Traveller simply having a machine you can feed raw mats into (probably very specialized stuff) where you could print up spares and after market stuff. Lets face it every engineering area on every starship probably has a cabinet sized printer for mfg spares. Your printing limitations would basically be constrained by the materials aboard the ship.
>>
>> Part of me relishes the idea of a stranded crew melting down the frame of Emperor Strephon's painting to make replacement parts.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPhone...
>>
>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 13:25, DED <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller? Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our current society (they in use now but are largely the province of hobbyists and manufacturers). The limits seem to be available material. But I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in the US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a functioning replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that there will be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of firearms?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts. Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>>>
>>> Or is this how B and C-class starports with insignificant populations or insufficient local tech levels get around these limitations? Parts can't be made locally? No problem, we just need the raw materials and the machine makes them. Insufficient population for a workforce? No problem, robots can load the machine all you need to do is tell the machine what to make.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> \_/
>>> DED
>
>
Hi Guys,
I seem to remember that there was a experiment done about two years ago using a 9mm handgun. It was made in "plastic" and it fired one round OK but on the second or third the recover exploded, happily it was during a bench test so no injury's occurred.
A thought, 3D imaging can make the exterior of a handgun but to make the interior pieces the firearm would need to be broken down into component parts,yes???
A second thought about ballistics. If a 3D imager could make a duplicate barrel of a handgun used in a armed robbery how would the police use ballistics anymore to trace the handgun back, now to a number of owners?, ouch.
My brother works in a fabrication plant and one of the machines he calls a CandC machine. Its computer controlled, laser scanning fabricator. It sound a lot like a 3D imager and I'm wondering if the two could be incorporated to manufacture parts without the poorer quality? Also do you need to scan the object each time you make it or could the scanned image be stored in a computer and pulled out when needed?
No matter what its interesting tech, todays 3D imager. tomorrows fabricator?
Roger
A CNC machine is basically an automated milling machine. It requires a
piece of (pre-made) stock that is larger than the piece you're trying to
make, and can only make one piece at a time. A 3D printer can make multiple
pieces simultaneously, and makes them from component materials, combined at
the time of manufacture (you can combine different types of plastics,
resins, or metals all at the same time). Also, a 3D printer can make an
item that is trapped inside another item without a seam (for example, you
can make a hollow sphere with something loose inside without any seam on
the sphere).
--
Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 7:39 AM, <> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I seem to remember that there was a experiment done about two years ago
> using a 9mm handgun. It was made in "plastic" and it fired one round OK
> but on the second or third the recover exploded, happily it was during a
> bench test so no injury's occurred.
>
> A thought, 3D imaging can make the exterior of a handgun but to make the
> interior pieces the firearm would need to be broken down into component
> parts,yes???
>
> A second thought about ballistics. If a 3D imager could make a duplicate
> barrel of a handgun used in a armed robbery how would the police use
> ballistics anymore to trace the handgun back, now to a number of owners?,
> ouch.
>
> My brother works in a fabrication plant and one of the machines he calls a
> CandC machine. Its computer controlled, laser scanning fabricator. It
> sound a lot like a 3D imager and I'm wondering if the two could be
> incorporated to manufacture parts without the poorer quality? Also do you
> need to scan the object each time you make it or could the scanned image
> be stored in a computer and pulled out when needed?
>
> No matter what its interesting tech, todays 3D imager. tomorrows
> fabricator?
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
My first post, but this is a subject that's grabbed my attention.
I believe the GURPS hi-tech book had a number of 3D printers etc (was doing
gurps traveller at the time). I think early printers, could only do simple
things like plastic or wood analogues. So only very hi tech level could do
computer boards or similar.
But have recently read a number of Peter Hamilton sci-fi (great north road
etc). His book had complex printers and what he called "raw" which was the
ink so to speak. The printer owner would by copyrights to products etc.
Then pay a portion of the fee to the company who did the design. In one
book there is a guy running a surf shop, he has no stock as such, but
prints to designs from online catalogues as chosen by customers. Though in
the story the owner is blackmailed into making bomb parts in the book.
A way a system could work in traveller, is that should the players ship
have a high tech level 3D printer. They would buy from the ship building
company a catalogue of parts for their ship.
I would expect that ship operation systems would have copyright and process
date software built into them. So every time a ship came into port. The
ship systems would contact the manufacturer, and then the relevant
copyright charges levied ( I think Microsoft tried something along these
lines).
Dumb products would most likely incur no costs (nuts, bolts etc).
Though would expect systems like firearms and ammunition, would have strict
controls etc in place. Also the cost of buying the designs would be
considerable, in most cases would be cheaper to buy off the shelf.
Every machine and electronics shop would have their own printers ranging
from small (most free/far traders) to quite large on capital ships and/or
tenders, which would want to be able to reproduce most spare parts capable
of being installed outside of a dry dock.
The trader just needs to be able to hold it together to get to the next
port, but big military ships need to operate off the mains. Small for a
trader is more than big enough for any man portable equipment, of
course... And even smaller crew served slugthrowers certainly.
Any decent slicer would make mince meat of the MSFT copyright scheme.
Doesn't work with age of sail speed of communication. Anyone could avoid
that anyway by sticking to D/E starports entirely or having that system be
down on the rare time when you go to a big one. As long as you don't go to
the same mainworlds repeatedly in a short period of time, you could stay
ahead of that shell game for a long time.
Imagine the 2I and 3I equivalents of the anarchists handbook... most likely
diagrams of primitive thermonuclear weapons with materials shopping lists
obtainable on any TL4 world. Imps don't get involved unless you use one
where it's not in the interest of the local noble...
The other fun is conventional manufacturing techniques would still be needed for some alloys. I.e. alloys made in zero-G to get better strength or other properties would not be viable in a 3D printer. The 3-D printing process either would not use metal to connect the parts, or the heat of the sintering process would cause the materials to separate, removing most of the benefits.
Todd Kes
On Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:54 PM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
A CNC machine is basically an automated milling machine. It requires a piece of (pre-made) stock that is larger than the piece you're trying to make, and can only make one piece at a time. A 3D printer can make multiple pieces simultaneously, and makes them from component materials, combined at the time of manufacture (you can combine different types of plastics, resins, or metals all at the same time). Also, a 3D printer can make an item that is trapped inside another item without a seam (for example, you can make a hollow sphere with something loose inside without any seam on the sphere).
--
Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 7:39 AM, <> wrote:
>
>Hi Guys,
>I seem to remember that there was a experiment done about two years ago using a 9mm handgun. It was made in "plastic" and it fired one round OK but on the second or third the recover exploded, happily it was during a bench test so no injury's occurred.
>A thought, 3D imaging can make the exterior of a handgun but to make the interior pieces the firearm would need to be broken down into component parts,yes???
>A second thought about ballistics. If a 3D imager could make a duplicate barrel of a handgun used in a armed robbery how would the police use ballistics anymore to trace the handgun back, now to a number of owners?, ouch.
>My brother works in a fabrication plant and one of the machines he calls a CandC machine. Its computer controlled, laser scanning fabricator. It sound a lot like a 3D imager and I'm wondering if the two could be incorporated to manufacture parts without the poorer quality? Also do you need to scan the object each time you make it or could the scanned image be stored in a computer and pulled out when needed?
>No matter what its interesting tech, todays 3D imager. tomorrows fabricator?
>Roger
>
>
>
>
> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller?
> Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our
> current society (they in use *now* but are largely the province of
> hobbyists and manufacturers).
>
Honestly they will probably remain in the realm of Hobbyists and
Manufacturers, in that how many people do you know that have a selection of
machine tools in there garage?
> The limits seem to be available material.
>
That is the key point, "what feedstocks do I have on hand to fix my
problem?".
> But I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here in
> the US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a
> functioning replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that
> there will be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of
> firearms?
>
Probably not. As a gun is just another type of machine. Though I could see
societies where access to that sort of information would be restricted, as
well as some of the easier feedstocks for chemical assemblers to construct
common explosives and propellants.
>
> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
> carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
> Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
> manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If
> so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force
> starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>
Right now I am thinking the most common one will be the one in each
Staterooms Culinary Unit, Which could go a long way in explained the cost
of Life Support, needing to replace all the expired and/or half used
Culinary cartridges... 8)
Largely The printers will be part of a larger chain of industrial tools
used to produce goods, so each shop probably will have one or two to
support the shops operations.
For years I have included a "Autoforge" as part of a ship machine shop,
which years ago was envisioned as a CNC Mill like device that manufacture
parts to specification, I can see a integral printer as part of this now.
(Note; My dad worked for a specialist Machining operation that use High
Tech Investment casting to produce parts for Military, Aerospace and
related specialized industries. And for the late 80s the plant was quite
impressive)
>
> Thoughts?
>
Most of my thoughts are I have always assumed that this and similar
technologies were already in play. Though the printer in the Culinary unit
amuses me for some reason.
Mostly to Evan
"Earl Grey, Hot, Black"
sort of that kind of amusing?
On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Evyn MacDude <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 1:25 PM, DED <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in Traveller?
>> Over the next few years I think they'll have a noticeable impact on our
>> current society (they in use *now* but are largely the province of
>> hobbyists and manufacturers).
>>
>
> Honestly they will probably remain in the realm of Hobbyists and
> Manufacturers, in that how many people do you know that have a selection of
> machine tools in there garage?
>
>
>> The limits seem to be available material.
>>
>
> That is the key point, "what feedstocks do I have on hand to fix my
> problem?".
>
>
>> But I wonder if various nations will impose bans on certain items. Here
>> in the US, at least one guy has already made a gun (I think it was a
>> functioning replica of an AR-15 but I could be wrong). Is it possible that
>> there will be protocols programmed in to prevent the manufacture of
>> firearms?
>>
>
> Probably not. As a gun is just another type of machine. Though I could see
> societies where access to that sort of information would be restricted, as
> well as some of the easier feedstocks for chemical assemblers to construct
> common explosives and propellants.
>
>>
>> I'm thinking that there will be different sizes available. Ships could
>> carry around desktop-sized ones that will be limited to small parts.
>> Machine shop varieties will be able to make larger parts. Will the
>> manufacturers of the devices be the same ones that make starship parts? If
>> so, will the machines be programmed to prohibit those designs to force
>> starships to buy directly from the manufacturer or a licensed retailer?
>>
>
> Right now I am thinking the most common one will be the one in each
> Staterooms Culinary Unit, Which could go a long way in explained the cost
> of Life Support, needing to replace all the expired and/or half used
> Culinary cartridges... 8)
>
> Largely The printers will be part of a larger chain of industrial tools
> used to produce goods, so each shop probably will have one or two to
> support the shops operations.
>
> For years I have included a "Autoforge" as part of a ship machine shop,
> which years ago was envisioned as a CNC Mill like device that manufacture
> parts to specification, I can see a integral printer as part of this now.
> (Note; My dad worked for a specialist Machining operation that use High
> Tech Investment casting to produce parts for Military, Aerospace and
> related specialized industries. And for the late 80s the plant was quite
> impressive)
>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
> Most of my thoughts are I have always assumed that this and similar
> technologies were already in play. Though the printer in the Culinary unit
> amuses me for some reason.
>
> --
> Evyn
>
>
>
--
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for
it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and their
kids pay for it."
As others have said, 3D printers work great as "fabricators" - an
non-magical (i.e. Traveller) version of replicators.
FWIW, I'm running the "Grand Tour" adventure, and the PCs went thru
Vincennes on their way to knighthoods at Deneb.
Our intrepid journalist (Akidda) decided he wanted a floating cameraman
robot, which our travellin' roboticist (Dr Krenstein) took up as a
challenge. I had the player rolling dice to develop the 'bot as Krenstein's
jump-space "hobby", including creating the frame and outer shell as a 3D
printable creation. When they got to Vincennes, Krenstein took the design
(on his hand-comp) to a local fabricator, and had it 3D-printed out.
It meant that in the two weeks they were in-system, they could build a 'bot
from scratch, without the complications of re-tooling a manufacturing plant
to produce a one-off item.
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
<http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
<>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
I imagine you could make a shiny bomb casing but would you really want to print the explosives inside your pipe bomb as you're making the case?
For a players sake you could probably print the parts as an assembled unit but any of the volatile compounds would have to be added after the fact. I imagine printing with fissile materials would not only f up your printer but they'd void the warranty...
I can see the warning labels now... Printing explosive devices and weapons with your Ronco Popail 3d Matrix Printer will void your warranty and is a federal offence against Imperial law. Object printed in the RP 3d are for external use only and should under no circumstances be used as a topical cream.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 8, 2014, at 11:26 AM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
> Every machine and electronics shop would have their own printers ranging from small (most free/far traders) to quite large on capital ships and/or tenders, which would want to be able to reproduce most spare parts capable of being installed outside of a dry dock.
>
> The trader just needs to be able to hold it together to get to the next port, but big military ships need to operate off the mains. Small for a trader is more than big enough for any man portable equipment, of course... And even smaller crew served slugthrowers certainly.
>
> Any decent slicer would make mince meat of the MSFT copyright scheme. Doesn't work with age of sail speed of communication. Anyone could avoid that anyway by sticking to D/E starports entirely or having that system be down on the rare time when you go to a big one. As long as you don't go to the same mainworlds repeatedly in a short period of time, you could stay ahead of that shell game for a long time.
>
> Imagine the 2I and 3I equivalents of the anarchists handbook... most likely diagrams of primitive thermonuclear weapons with materials shopping lists obtainable on any TL4 world. Imps don't get involved unless you use one where it's not in the interest of the local noble...
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>
A perfectly acceptable creation and application, I'd make it so that the chemical energy source would have to be added later.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 8, 2014, at 7:00 PM, "David Jaques-Watson" <> wrote:
>
> Dear Folks -
>
>
>
> As others have said, 3D printers work great as "fabricators" - an non-magical (i.e. Traveller) version of replicators.
>
>
>
> FWIW, I'm running the "Grand Tour" adventure, and the PCs went thru Vincennes on their way to knighthoods at Deneb.
>
>
>
> Our intrepid journalist (Akidda) decided he wanted a floating cameraman robot, which our travellin' roboticist (Dr Krenstein) took up as a challenge. I had the player rolling dice to develop the 'bot as Krenstein's jump-space "hobby", including creating the frame and outer shell as a 3D printable creation. When they got to Vincennes, Krenstein took the design (on his hand-comp) to a local fabricator, and had it 3D-printed ou t.
>
>
>
> It meant that in the two weeks they were in-system, they could build a 'bot from scratch, without the complications of re-tooling a manufacturing plant to produce a one-off item.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>
> < p class="MsoNormal">
>
>So has anyone given any thought about how these can be used in
>Traveller?
tl;dr summary: They can do the easy stuff, not the complicated stuff.
They can save your ass in a jam, but you won't get away with it forever.
More elaborately: I treat them as useful, but not quite to the
deus-ex-machina level. For example, they can be used for making parts
that you need to do repairs on critical systems, but you can't really
count on them, because they can't necessarily duplicate exotic alloys or
crystal structures that may be necessary for the best quality/
durability/whatever - the Stutterwarp Rotor Frammistam39;s left-handed
widget, for example, is normally replaced during every Annual
Maintenance, and is made of an exotic alloy that simply can't be printed
- it requires that the metal be worked in very high heat under zero-g
conditions to properly form - but you can print the right shape out of
regular steel and expect it to work, for a maximum of two or three
discharge cycles, before it becomes brittle and breaks.
I also limit them in the complexity of organic molecules they can
generate - simple hydrocarbons and alcohols are no problem, simple
sugars are also pretty easy, but don't expect to be able to print up a
batch of transfusion-safe Type O- blood, or to print up new algae for
the hydroponics tanks.
--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported
Traveller® Fanzine and Resource
®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2009. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.
Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:
CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)
Ion makes a good point and I really like the idea of building any spare parts by just going to a catalog and choosing the part needed. It also makes sense to build it now as needed and pay on return to a starport.
To get around this how about a 3D Laser Scanner. You put the object inside scan it and sent it to the 3D printer or store it on your computer.
Jeff also made a good point about how good is the part the printer makes, will it hold up good as new or will it break, shatter or fail in a short while??
Say your jump drive takes a hit and you build a spare 3D part. Here I think the wear value will be effected say roll 1D6-1 and subtract the number from the J-Drive's current wear value. When the wear value number is failed the part is destroyed/ broken and if it breaks catastrophically several parts may need replacing. For the materials that can be used in printing I would look at the FF+S materials construction list and subtract at least two tech levels: Aubaine could print using Crystaliron.
Here is a real world 3D printer that I could see on a Far Trader sixed ship:
2.8x1.8x1.8 meters volume 1950 kg Cr 150,000
Tray size 1x 0.8x0.5 meters
uses 18 kg cartridges Cr 180
Materials that can be used in #d printers:Rubber, Plastics, Paper, Polyurethane, and metals.
Smaller desk top 3D printers have 21x21x20 cm trays Cr 580, Weight 25 kg (app) and use 1kg spools of PLA plastic Cr10/ spool.
Check out the KamerMaker 3D printer with a table area of 2x2x3.5 meters. It seems to be a demo printer to see just how big can they go The two small ones I can see as part of s starships machine shop, but the biggest one only at a starport's repair or construction docks building component parts like J-Drive hull casings.
Still, its interesting tech
Roger
The 3d laser scanner is an idea that goes with it, but I'd think you may want the opportunity to also have some way of looking at the inside of things x-ray and other methods ... how else to build that seamless sphere with something inside it? I'd be more flexible with the modifier for the fabricated part - would depend on whether or not they had ship grade raw materials available, had the training/skill to operate the fabricator etc., etc.
But say a repair ship was in the area - its ability to fabricate could equal anything that a shipyard could do if it had the time and materials. Usually such a thing would only do the minimums necessary for a disabled ship to get to the nearest friendly shipyard, but push come to shove could do more, and have it done reliably.
A shipyard on the other hand, would be able to do all that work not only on the player's ship but dozens simultaneously and because it would have the storage for materials near at hand - do it more quickly, and at least as reliably.
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 9:01 AM, "" <> wrote:
>Ion makes a good point and I really like the idea of building any spare parts by just going to a catalog and choosing the part needed. It also makes sense to build it now as needed and pay on return to a starport.
>To get around this how about a 3D Laser Scanner. You put the object inside scan it and sent it to the 3D printer or store it on your computer.
>Jeff also made a good point about how good is the part the printer makes, will it hold up good as new or will it break, shatter or fail in a short while??
>Say your jump drive takes a hit and you build a spare 3D part. Here I think the wear value will be effected say roll 1D6-1 and subtract the number from the J-Drive's current wear value. When the wear value number is failed the part is destroyed/ broken and if it breaks catastrophically several parts may need replacing. For the materials that can be used in printing I would look at the FF+S materials construction list and subtract at least two tech levels: Aubaine could print using Crystaliron.
>Here is a real world 3D printer that I could see on a Far Trader sixed ship:
>2.8x1.8x1.8 meters volume 1950 kg Cr 150,000
>Tray size 1x 0.8x0.5 meters
>uses 18 kg cartridges Cr 180
>Materials that can be used in #d printers:Rubber, Plastics, Paper, Polyurethane, and metals.
>
>
>Smaller desk top 3D printers have 21x21x20 cm trays Cr 580, Weight 25 kg (app) and use 1kg spools of PLA plastic Cr10/ spool.
>
>
>Check out the KamerMaker 3D printer with a table area of 2x2x3.5 meters. It seems to be a demo printer to see just how big can they go The two small ones I can see as part of s starships machine shop, but the biggest one only at a starport's repair or construction docks building component parts like J-Drive hull casings.
>Still, its interesting tech
>Roger
>
>
>
>
>
The 3D scanner would also be limited by its resolution, plus trying to scan any internal spaces would be limited. Plans would provide greater detail than the scan, but if you need a part now, and only have the existing model, you do what you have to do.
Todd Kes
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 3:50 PM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
The 3d laser scanner is an idea that goes with it, but I'd think you may want the opportunity to also have some way of looking at the inside of things x-ray and other methods ... how else to build that seamless sphere with something inside it? I'd be more flexible with the modifier for the fabricated part - would depend on whether or not they had ship grade raw materials available, had the training/skill to operate the fabricator etc., etc.
But say a repair ship was in the area - its ability to fabricate could equal anything that a shipyard could do if it had the time and materials. Usually such a thing would only do the minimums necessary for a disabled ship to get to the nearest friendly shipyard, but push come to shove could do more, and have it done reliably.
A shipyard on the other hand, would be able to do all that work not only on the player's ship but dozens simultaneously and because it would have the storage for materials near at hand - do it more quickly, and at least as reliably.
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 9:01 AM, "" <> wrote:
>Ion makes a good point and I really like the idea of building any spare parts by just going to a catalog and choosing the part needed. It also makes sense to build it now as needed and pay on return to a starport.
>To get around this how about a 3D Laser Scanner. You put the object inside scan it and sent it to the 3D printer or store it on your computer.
>Jeff also made a good point about how good is the part the printer makes, will it hold up good as new or will it break, shatter or fail in a short while??
>Say your jump drive takes a hit and you build a spare 3D part. Here I think the wear value will be effected say roll 1D6-1 and subtract the number from the J-Drive's current wear value. When the wear value number is failed the part is destroyed/ broken and if it breaks catastrophically several parts may need replacing. For the materials that can be used in printing I would look at the FF+S materials construction list and subtract at least two tech levels: Aubaine could print using Crystaliron.
>Here is a real world 3D printer that I could see on a Far Trader sixed ship:
>2.8x1.8x1.8 meters volume 1950 kg Cr 150,000
>Tray size 1x 0.8x0.5 meters
>uses 18 kg cartridges Cr 180
>Materials that can be used in #d printers:Rubber, Plastics, Paper, Polyurethane, and metals.
>
>
>Smaller desk top 3D printers have 21x21x20 cm trays Cr 580, Weight 25 kg (app) and use 1kg spools of PLA plastic Cr10/ spool.
>
>
>Check out the KamerMaker 3D printer with a table area of 2x2x3.5 meters. It seems to be a demo printer to see just how big can they go The two small ones I can see as part of s starships machine shop, but the biggest one only at a starport's repair or construction docks building component parts like J-Drive hull casings.
>Still, its interesting tech
>Roger
>
>
>
>
Roger wrote:
>Ion makes a good point and I really like the idea of building any spare parts by just going to a catalog and choosing the part needed...
[snip]
YES! A Set of Actual Rules^TM!!
<slurp!> The Black Hole of Quality strikes again! (Thanks for the rules ideas, Roger!)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
> The 3d laser scanner is an idea that goes with it, but I'd think you
> may want the opportunity to also have some way of looking at the
> inside of things x-ray and other methods ... how else to build that
> seamless sphere with something inside it?
Basically, you *can't*. Not without the "plans" to feed into the
faber.
Anything that can scan through a steel (or whatever) shell is going
to thoroughly *trash* microm scale structures such as ICs. Especially
if you are trying to resolve said micron scale structures thru
several com (or more) of "other stuff".
Neutrinos might be able to scan without damage, but they don't have
the required resolution.
And you need to know what kind of atom goes where for things like
that. Scanners aren't going to do that very well.
"reverse engineering" stuff like that will be a *destructive*
process, and likely involve stripping away atoms one by one as you
"scan" the original.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com
> A second thought about ballistics. If a 3Dimager could make a
> duplicate barrel of a handgun used in a armed robbery how would the
> police use ballistics anymore to trace the handgun back, now to a
> number of owners?, ouch.
The barrels of guns straight from the factory are non-identical in
the micro details of the rifling. And they wear differently. That's
how they match buullets to barrels. By those microscopic differences.
There's no reason that 3d printed barrels would be any more
identical (and some reason to believe they'd be *less* identical).
Once you get to the level of fabers/replicators, where each *atom* is
placed individually then it might be a problem. but when you are
building stuff to merely thousandth of an inch tolerances, they
aren't going to be all that identical. Interchangeable parts, yes.
Identical parts, no.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com
hmmm good point, and that is likely beyond the normal ship's capability
On Monday, February 10, 2014 6:22 AM, "" <> wrote:
>On 8 Feb 2014 at 5:39, wrote:
>
>> A second thought about ballistics. If a 3Dimager could make a
>> duplicate barrel of a handgun used in a armed robbery how would the
>> police use ballistics anymore to trace the handgun back, now to a
>> number of owners?, ouch.
>
>The barrels of guns straight from the factory are non-identical in
>the micro details of the rifling. And they wear differently. That's
>how they match buullets to barrels. By those microscopic differences.
>
>There's no reason that 3d printed barrels would be any more
>identical (and some reason to believe they'd be *less* identical).
>
>Once you get to the level of fabers/replicators, where each *atom* is
>placed individually then it might be a problem. but when you are
>building stuff to merely thousandth of an inch tolerances, they
>aren't going to be all that identical. Interchangeable parts, yes.
>Identical parts, no.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
>shadow at shadowgard dot com
>
>
>
>
>
The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial
relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no
world truly independent and self sustaining.
So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc
cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but
shotguns and carbines.
A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in
telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges
via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all
normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially
drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date
code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset.
Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the
exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you
need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer, I
would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing short
of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like this into
a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know about any that
I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been sued because
of these).
--
Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
>
> The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial
> relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no
> world truly independent and self sustaining.
>
> So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc
> cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but
> shotguns and carbines.
>
> A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in
> telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges
> via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all
> normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially
> drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date
> code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset.
> Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the
> exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
>
> The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you
> need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
that's also a point but since traveler is such a hand-wavium anyways let's "assume" (a truly dangerous word) and say that this has become practice, and that such code is hard to find - not impossible, but truly difficult. And to remove it without destroying the program would require some high powered computer skills - available for a price I'm sure discounts available to the "connected," etc., etc.
OTOH going back to the 3d printer, such a fabrication module or "fabber" / exists in 1a. real life machine shops with differing capabilities whether in a town or on a ship. Repair ships have better, and more extensive capabilities than the run of the mill vessel.
1b. Some shops are more geared for one product line than another, and to switch requires more extensive re-tooling - the 3d printer tech only advances this to a degree the size limitation being the primary restriction for them.
2. the use of fabbers also exist in the realm of SF and what we see now, may become common in such a future - Star Trek food production and its mishaps being one area of several with wide possibilities.
regards
On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
>If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer, I would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing short of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like this into a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know about any that I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been sued because of these).
>
>
>--
>Mario
>
>http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
>>The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no world truly independent and self sustaining.
>>So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but shotguns and carbines.
>>A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset. Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
>>The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
>>Ian
>
>
>
>
I'd wonder about the relative TL difference between the Traveller crew, and the local planet. If the Traveller crew can make advanced weaponry, while the locals only have shotguns and carbines, thy might make some money providing advanced weapons.
Though the smart thing to do would be using their computers and predictive algorithms to play the local stock market. Once they have control over certain businesses (that they know will take off with the next wave of tech advancement), they bring another item, and keep making money.
This stock market fun could wind up making the players more money than running cargo, and since they only need to stay on one planet, they can get more done.
The local powers will frown on your actions though, as your crew is trying to replace the current elite, and they will do their best to make sure the PCs don't cause problems. This can be by marrying them off, or putting them down. If marrying them off, expect lots of social complications. If wanting them dead, expect lots of well-trained and smart opponents to make the players take a hint.
Todd Kes
On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:48 AM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
that's also a point but since traveler is such a hand-wavium anyways let's "assume" (a truly dangerous word) and say that this has become practice, and that such code is hard to find - not impossible, but truly difficult. And to remove it without destroying the program would require some high powered computer skills - available for a price I'm sure discounts available to the "connected," etc., etc.
OTOH going back to the 3d printer, such a fabrication module or "fabber" / exists in 1a. real life machine shops with differing capabilities whether in a town or on a ship. Repair ships have better, and more extensive capabilities than the run of the mill vessel.
1b. Some shops are more geared for one product line than another, and to switch requires more extensive re-tooling - the 3d printer tech only advances this to a degree the size limitation being the primary restriction for them.
2. the use of fabbers also exist in the realm of SF and what we see now, may become common in such a future - Star Trek food production and its mishaps being one area of several with wide possibilities.
regards
On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
>If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer, I would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing short of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like this into a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know about any that I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been sued because of these).
>
>
>--
>Mario
>
>http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
>>The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no world truly independent and self sustaining.
>>So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but shotguns and carbines.
>>A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset. Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
>>The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
>>Ian
>
>
>
I expect that the crew would often get a very strong, "You're not from these parts are you?" reaction. Still all in all, in an area where there's no strong Patrol/Navy/whatever the LEO is called patrolling the space lanes then they could muscle in one way or another and the higher the tech difference meaning the more that the crew could try to "rule it over" the locals. Yet, taking on a whole world is not an easy proposition, especially in the long term.
Tim
On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:20 PM, Todd Kes <> wrote:
>I'd wonder about the relative TL difference between the Traveller crew, and the local planet. If the Traveller crew can make advanced weaponry, while the locals only have shotguns and carbines, thy might make some money providing advanced weapons.
>
>Though the smart thing to do would be using their computers and predictive algorithms to play the local stock market. Once they have control over certain businesses (that they know will take off with the next wave of tech advancement), they bring another item, and keep making money.
>
>This stock market fun could wind up making the players more money than running cargo, and since they only need to stay on one planet, they can get more done.
>
>The local powers will frown on your actions though, as your crew is trying to
replace the current elite, and they will do their best to make sure the PCs don't cause problems. This can be by marrying them off, or putting them down. If marrying them off, expect lots of social complications. If wanting them dead, expect lots of well-trained and smart opponents to make the players take a hint.
>
>Todd Kes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:48 AM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>that's also a point but since traveler is such a hand-wavium anyways let's "assume" (a truly dangerous word) and say that this has become practice, and that such code is hard to find - not impossible, but truly difficult. And to remove it without destroying the program would require some high powered computer skills - available for a price I'm sure discounts available to the "connected," etc., etc.
>OTOH going back to the 3d printer, such a fabrication module or "fabber" / exists in 1a. real life machine shops with differing capabilities whether in a town or on a ship. Repair ships have better, and more extensive capabilities than the run of the mill vessel.
>
>
>1b. Some shops are more geared for one product line than another, and to switch requires more extensive re-tooling - the 3d printer tech only advances this to a degree the size limitation being the primary restriction for them.
>
>
>2. the use of fabbers also exist in the realm of SF and what we see now, may become common in such a future - Star Trek food production and its mishaps being one area of several with wide possibilities.
>regards
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
>
>
>>If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer, I would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing short of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like this into a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know about any that I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been sued because of these).
>>
>>
>>--
>>Mario
>>
>>http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
>>>The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no world truly independent and self sustaining.
>>>So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but shotguns and carbines.
>>>A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset. Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
>>>The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
>>>Ian
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I'd think that the build time to make weapons would be prohibitive, it'd probably just be a whole heck of a lot easier and more profitable to land with a cargo hold full of AKM's. A ship board printer would be most useful for one off weapons and replacement parts.
IE - The crew of Lady Luck lands on Gresham where they intend to sell a cargo hold full of gear including a few crates of weapons, while they're dirtside on of the characters finds out that the local lord has a soft spot for antique revolvers. A quick search of the database aboard the ship reveals a variety of images of a .44 caliber smith and wesson double action and the crew decides to use the images to make plans and bases the internal workings on a modern snub revolver. The crew makes some rolls for the GM and successfully fabricates a very nice knock off of a classic weapon which they in turn present to the suitably impressed local lord.
When they get ready to leave the ships engineer notices that the primary buffer panel has fallen off during re-entry given that the nearest starport likely to have a spare buffer panel is 4 jumps away so she decides to fabricate a replacement until they get back to somewhere civilized. Needless to say the Captain pays no attention to his engineers warnings that this is a temporary fix and 9 months later the Lady Luck is still flying about with a temporary spare.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 12, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Todd Kes <> wrote:
>
> I'd wonder about the relative TL difference between the Traveller crew, and the local planet. If the Traveller crew can make advanced weaponry, while the locals only have shotguns and carbines, thy might make some money providing advanced weapons.
>
> Though the smart thing to do would be using their computers and predictive algorithms to play the local stock market. Once they have control over certain businesses (that they know will take off with the next wave of tech advancement), they bring another item, and keep making money.
>
> This stock market fun could wind up making the players more money than running cargo, and since they only need to stay on one planet, they can get more done.
>
> The local powers will frown on your actions though, as your crew is trying to replace the current elite, and they will do their best to make sure the PCs don't cause problems. This can be by marrying them off, or putting them down. If marrying them off, expect lots of social complications. If wanting them dead, expect lots of well-trained and smart opponents to make the players take a hint.
>
> Todd Kes
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:48 AM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
>
>
> that's also a point but since traveler is such a hand-wavium anyways let's "assume" (a truly dangerous word) and say that this has become practice, and that such code is hard to find - not impossible, but truly difficult. And to remove it without destroying the program would require some high powered computer skills - available for a price I'm sure discounts available to the "connected," etc., etc.
> OTOH going back to the 3d printer, such a fabrication module or "fabber" / exists in 1a. real life machine shops with differing capabilities whether in a town or on a ship. Repair ships have better, and more extensive capabilities than the run of the mill vessel.
>
> 1b. Some shops are more geared for one product line than another, and to switch requires more extensive re-tooling - the 3d printer tech only advances this to a degree the size limitation being the primary restriction for them.
>
> 2. the use of fabbers also exist in the realm of SF and what we see now, may become common in such a future - Star Trek food production and its mishaps being one area of several with wide possibilities.
> regards
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
>
> If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer, I would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing short of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like this into a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know about any that I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been sued because of these).
>
> --
> Mario
>
> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
> The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no world truly independent and self sustaining.
> So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but shotguns and carbines.
> A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset. Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
> The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
> Ian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The local lord will be happy, unless they said it was a true antique. Then the local lord will be angry about the deception. But that is what FTL drives are for, right?
The other option would have been to explain they can make a gun like that on board, and what sortof customization the local lord would want? Off-world woods, gems spelling his name, custom highlights, etc.
Todd Kes
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:19 AM, DEREK STANLEY <> wrote:
I'd think that the build time to make weapons would be prohibitive, it'd probably just be a whole heck of a lot easier and more profitable to land with a cargo hold full of AKM's. A ship board printer would be most useful for one off weapons and replacement parts.
IE - The crew of Lady Luck lands on Gresham where they intend to sell a cargo hold full of gear including a few crates of weapons, while they're dirtside on of the characters finds out that the local lord has a soft spot for antique revolvers. A quick search of the database aboard the ship reveals a variety of images of a .44 caliber smith and wesson double action and the crew decides to use the images to make plans and bases the internal workings on a modern snub revolver. The crew makes some rolls for the GM and successfully fabricates a very nice knock off of a classic weapon which they in turn present to the suitably impressed local lord.
When they get ready to leave the ships engineer notices that the primary buffer panel has fallen off during re-entry given that the nearest starport likely to have a spare buffer panel is 4 jumps away so she decides to fabricate a replacement until they get back to somewhere civilized. Needless to say the Captain pays no attention to his engineers warnings that this is a temporary fix and 9 months later the Lady Luck is still flying about with a temporary spare.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 12, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Todd Kes <> wrote:
>I'd wonder about the relative TL difference between the Traveller crew, and the local planet. If the Traveller crew can make advanced weaponry, while the locals only have shotguns and carbines, thy might make some money providing advanced weapons.
>
>Though the smart thing to do would be using their computers and predictive algorithms to play the local stock market. Once they have control over certain businesses (that they know will take off with the next wave of tech advancement), they bring another item, and keep making money.
>
>This stock market fun could wind up making the players more money than running cargo, and since they only need to stay on one planet, they can get more done.
>
>The local powers will frown on your actions though, as your crew is trying to
replace the current elite, and they will do their best to make sure the PCs don't cause problems. This can be by marrying them off, or putting them down. If marrying them off, expect lots of social complications. If wanting them dead, expect lots of well-trained and smart opponents to make the players take a hint.
>
>Todd Kes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:48 AM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>that's also a point but since traveler is such a hand-wavium anyways let's "assume" (a truly dangerous word) and say that this has become practice, and that such code is hard to find - not impossible, but truly difficult. And to remove it without destroying the program would require some high powered computer skills - available for a price I'm sure discounts available to the "connected," etc., etc.
>OTOH going back to the 3d printer, such a fabrication module or "fabber" / exists in 1a. real life machine shops with differing capabilities whether in a town or on a ship. Repair ships have better, and more extensive capabilities than the run of the mill vessel.
>
>
>1b. Some shops are more geared for one product line than another, and to switch requires more extensive re-tooling - the 3d printer tech only advances this to a degree the size limitation being the primary restriction for them.
>
>
>2. the use of fabbers also exist in the realm of SF and what we see now, may become common in such a future - Star Trek food production and its mishaps being one area of several with wide possibilities.
>regards
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM, Mario Butter <> wrote:
>
>
>>If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer, I would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing short of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like this into a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know about any that I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been sued because of these).
>>
>>
>>--
>>Mario
>>
>>http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
>>>The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no world truly independent and self sustaining.
>>>So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but shotguns and carbines.
>>>A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset. Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
>>>The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
>>>Ian
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
I don't see a problem with 'fabbers39; as Tim points out. It does alleviate
the issue of spares to some degree like circuit boards and such.
For Traveller organic substances are clearly off limits but Traveller was
in it prime in the 80s and they tried as best they could to make a decent
game given what was 'known39; at the time. And as is so often the case
science simply learns more, engineers find ways to use the knowledge and
products get made which makes things printed in the yonder years outdated.
But on a practical note I would only allow it in a Traveller game is the
player's earned it that way the ability to 'fab' stuff cheaply is a boon
for the operation of their ship or stuff. But mind you this won't mitigate
the need for yearly maintenance as even nuclear submarines still need major
ports to do overhaul for large systems.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:
>
>
> that's also a point but since traveler is such a hand-wavium anyways let's
> "assume" (a truly dangerous word) and say that this has become practice,
> and that such code is hard to find - not impossible, but truly difficult.
> And to remove it without destroying the program would require some high
> powered computer skills - available for a price I'm sure discounts
> available to the "connected," etc., etc.
> OTOH going back to the 3d printer, such a fabrication module or "fabber" /
> exists in 1a. real life machine shops with differing capabilities whether
> in a town or on a ship. Repair ships have better, and more extensive
> capabilities than the run of the mill vessel.
>
> 1b. Some shops are more geared for one product line than another, and to
> switch requires more extensive re-tooling - the 3d printer tech only
> advances this to a degree the size limitation being the primary restriction
> for them.
>
> 2. the use of fabbers also exist in the realm of SF and what we see now,
> may become common in such a future - Star Trek food production and its
> mishaps being one area of several with wide possibilities.
> regards
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:12 AM, Mario Butter <
> > wrote:
>
>
> If this "shutdown date" is not documented and agreed to by the customer,
> I would consider this unethical and borderline fraudulent. It's nothing
> short of extortion. As a software engineer, I would never put code like
> this into a client's software, and I would let the powers that be know
> about any that I find (I have - and removed them; other companies have been
> sued because of these).
>
> --
> Mario
>
> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Ian Wilson <>wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
> The real issue in all this maybe cost, and to a degree copyright.
> The Traveller universe works differently in regard to its commercial
> relationships with individual planets. The Imperium strives to make no
> world truly independent and self sustaining.
> So would it be commercially viable for a starship crew to 3D print or cnc
> cut their own firearms, against a world of 3 billion who make nothing but
> shotguns and carbines.
> A slobbering tale to add with reference to computer boards etc. I work in
> telecoms, a company I work along side brought several telephone exchanges
> via another company. With the supplier they had a maintence package (all
> normal industry stuff). To save some money they decided to unofficially
> drop the support package. Unknown to the the supplier had fitted a date
> code into its software, which when the maintence was performed was reset.
> Predictably the date expired at 4pm on a Friday afternoon, all the
> exchanges shut down, much to the duty on calls misery.
> The point being when being pursued by star destroyers, the last thing you
> need is copyright issues with your jump drive :-) due to dodgy parts.
> Ian
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.