Thread: Opposition Alliance

Does anyone know about the "Opposition Alliance" in Meshan sector? We're
they in opposition to the "Ruler of Five" or the Imperium or something
more philosophical? The way the state is shaped, it looks like it's
intended to be a check on "Ruler of Five" expansion. I'm looking to put
a TNE Pocket Empire along the Windhorn Rift and I'd like to know if
there was any official background before I put my stamp on it. Any input
would be appreciated.

Thanks,
\_/
DED

Official? No. Only HIWG-level fan work. Ten issues of "Meshan Saga" fanzine out of HIWG-NZ, set in the Rebellion Era.

Meshan would have been among the first areas of Vargr space hit by Virus as it spread via the higher travel frequencies through Ziru Sirkaa space to Windhorn and then to Provence and Meshan. Once out of the beaten zones of the 3I into the healthy but disorganized Vargr states, "wildfire" is about as apt a term for the progress as any. This early in the spread the murderous inclinations of Virus would still have been very strong, and once it hit a state (OppAlliance)with a solid philosophical opinion toward another state (Ruler of Five) I can't see the genocide slowing down. The Ruler of Five looks like a large and well organized state, which means the Virus probably ripped across it in all directions on the commercial traffic alone, but if the RoF had fleets near their rimward borders those would have been coopted early. Shudder.

With your plan, I would be tempted to apply collapse modifications harshly and then see who survives. The old politics is probably all but gone by 1200.

--- In , DED <dedly@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know about the "Opposition Alliance" in Meshan sector? We're
> they in opposition to the "Ruler of Five" or the Imperium or something
> more philosophical? The way the state is shaped, it looks like it's
> intended to be a check on "Ruler of Five" expansion. I'm looking to put
> a TNE Pocket Empire along the Windhorn Rift and I'd like to know if
> there was any official background before I put my stamp on it. Any input
> would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> \_/
> DED
>

Thanks, James.

That's why I wanted to know who the Opposition Alliance was opposing.
The shape of the state led me to believe it was Ro5. The Ro5 is smack
dab in the middle of the Urzaeng cultural region so it's likely an
expansionist state (it's big by vargr standards), hence the Opposition
Alliance. I was just wondering if there was any official reason not to
believe that.

I agree with you that Meshan would be hit hard early. With all the
corsair activity running through the rimward portion of the sector, it's
a prime vector for infection. I've got /Out of Darkness/ so I'll be
making use of its modified Collapse and Recovery procedure. I intend to
have most of the area as Deep Wilds with pockets of Holocaust. The old
politics may not survive per se, but their legacy may continue on in
other ways.

The survivor state will start on a world 4 parsecs into the Windhorn
Rift in Tsougak subsector (H) of Windhorn sector. I'm generating the
UWP's and background now, as time permits. Knowing that the Vargr
Extents is dominated by raider kings in 1248, the area is wide open for
potential small PE's that don't affect the official storyline. There's
no guarantee that this little PE will still be in existence by 1248. As
it's much smaller than the RC, the players will play a much larger role.
But unlike the RC, whose success is written into the official storyline,
I'm leaving it up to the players in this campaign to determine its fate.

Speaking of which, if anyone is interested in playing in this campaign,
contact me off list. I have one guy on board right now so I can take on
four more. Characters can be human or vargr, though if you make a good
case for another race I'll allow it. No K'kree though. ;-)

\_/
DED

==========================
GypsyComet wrote:

Official? No. Only HIWG-level fan work. Ten issues of "Meshan Saga"
fanzine out of HIWG-NZ, set in the Rebellion Era.

Meshan would have been among the first areas of Vargr space hit by Virus
as it spread via the higher travel frequencies through Ziru Sirkaa space
to Windhorn and then to Provence and Meshan. Once out of the beaten
zones of the 3I into the healthy but disorganized Vargr states,
"wildfire" is about as apt a term for the progress as any. This early in
the spread the murderous inclinations of Virus would still have been
very strong, and once it hit a state (OppAlliance)with a solid
philosophical opinion toward another state (Ruler of Five) I can't see
the genocide slowing down. The Ruler of Five looks like a large and well
organized state, which means the Virus probably ripped across it in all
directions on the commercial traffic alone, but if the RoF had fleets
near their rimward borders those would have been coopted early. Shudder.

With your plan, I would be tempted to apply collapse modifications
harshly and then see who survives. The old politics is probably all but
gone by 1200.

--- In , DED wrote:
>
> Does anyone know about the "Opposition Alliance" in Meshan sector?
> We're they in opposition to the "Ruler of Five" or the Imperium or
> something more philosophical? The way the state is shaped, it looks
> like it's intended to be a check on "Ruler of Five" expansion. I'm
> looking to put a TNE Pocket Empire along the Windhorn Rift and I'd
> like to know if there was any official background before I put my
> stamp on it. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks, \_/ DED
>

A general reply here.

On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That said, there may be rich picking all around.

There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have the transponder.

States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being exported from the factions of the Imperium?

I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it. 
 

________________________________
From: DED
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 23:40
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance


 
Thanks, James.

That's why I wanted to know who the Opposition Alliance was opposing.
The shape of the state led me to believe it was Ro5. The Ro5 is smack
dab in the middle of the Urzaeng cultural region so it's likely an
expansionist state (it's big by vargr standards), hence the Opposition
Alliance. I was just wondering if there was any official reason not to
believe that.

I agree with you that Meshan would be hit hard early. With all the
corsair activity running through the rimward portion of the sector, it's
a prime vector for infection. I've got /Out of Darkness/ so I'll be
making use of its modified Collapse and Recovery procedure. I intend to
have most of the area as Deep Wilds with pockets of Holocaust. The old
politics may not survive per se, but their legacy may continue on in
other ways.

The survivor state will start on a world 4 parsecs into the Windhorn
Rift in Tsougak subsector (H) of Windhorn sector. I'm generating the
UWP's and background now, as time permits. Knowing that the Vargr
Extents is dominated by raider kings in 1248, the area is wide open for
potential small PE's that don't affect the official storyline. There's
no guarantee that this little PE will still be in existence by 1248. As
it's much smaller than the RC, the players will play a much larger role.
But unlike the RC, whose success is written into the official storyline,
I'm leaving it up to the players in this campaign to determine its fate.

Speaking of which, if anyone is interested in playing in this campaign,
contact me off list. I have one guy on board right now so I can take on
four more. Characters can be human or vargr, though if you make a good
case for another race I'll allow it. No K'kree though. ;-)

\_/
DED

==========================
GypsyComet wrote:

Official? No. Only HIWG-level fan work. Ten issues of "Meshan Saga"
fanzine out of HIWG-NZ, set in the Rebellion Era.

Meshan would have been among the first areas of Vargr space hit by Virus
as it spread via the higher travel frequencies through Ziru Sirkaa space
to Windhorn and then to Provence and Meshan. Once out of the beaten
zones of the 3I into the healthy but disorganized Vargr states,
"wildfire" is about as apt a term for the progress as any. This early in
the spread the murderous inclinations of Virus would still have been
very strong, and once it hit a state (OppAlliance)with a solid
philosophical opinion toward another state (Ruler of Five) I can't see
the genocide slowing down. The Ruler of Five looks like a large and well
organized state, which means the Virus probably ripped across it in all
directions on the commercial traffic alone, but if the RoF had fleets
near their rimward borders those would have been coopted early. Shudder.

With your plan, I would be tempted to apply collapse modifications
harshly and then see who survives. The old politics is probably all but
gone by 1200.

--- In , DED wrote:
>
> Does anyone know about the "Opposition Alliance" in Meshan sector?
> We're they in opposition to the "Ruler of Five" or the Imperium or
> something more philosophical? The way the state is shaped, it looks
> like it's intended to be a check on "Ruler of Five" expansion. I'm
> looking to put a TNE Pocket Empire along the Windhorn Rift and I'd
> like to know if there was any official background before I put my
> stamp on it. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks, \_/ DED
>

Thanks, Eamon.

I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.

More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.

After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.

Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."

While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)

On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?

\_/
DED

================
Eamon Watters wrote:

A general reply here.

On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.

There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.

States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?

I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.

Re the vampire highway, that was specifically between core where Lucan created the virus and Cymbeline, where the deyo chips originated. Its effectively a pilgrimage to birth places. Not sure there is anything similar out towards the extents. Two other places the vamps may visit - site of the omicron research station but that's in the core sector, and the original labs that developed the deyo transponder. Don't remember anything said about where that was.

As for virus infection of meshan. There would be enough deyo equipped vargr merchants and cross border raiders + captured imperial merchant shipping (don't forget Lishun fell to the vargr with very little fight after the fleet was recalled, and the league of antares was very friendly with the Julians for a while) for the virus to cross the border, after that the books say it slows as it works out the new alien systems and then spreads again. How much vargr infrastructure is stolen imperial equipment or copied from imperial designs - the 101 robots book has vargr knockoffs of imperial robots.

Given the vargr pack mentality, their defenses would be insufficient, no warning from Strephon here. Some local pack leader would either run away or attempt a heroic strike and generate a fatal hole in the defense line, same with electronic quarantine. Pocket empire after pocket empire would fall.

This might even be the catastrophic event that starts a slow change in vargr culture and makes them a bit more stable / willing to follow orders. Only new PE that have some internal discipline are likely to withstand repeated infection attempts.

Cheers
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: DED
To:
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:05 PM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

Thanks, Eamon.

I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.

More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.

After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.

Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."

While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)

On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?

\_/
DED

================
Eamon Watters wrote:

A general reply here.

On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.

There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.

States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?

I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.

"Richard Perks" wrote:
> This might even be the catastrophic event that starts a slow change
> in vargr culture and makes them a bit more stable / willing to
> follow orders. Only new PE that have some internal discipline are
> likely to withstand repeated infection attempts.

It would be equally likely that Vargr would simply assimilate Virus into their society.

The big advantage Vargr have over humans in the TU is that they are flexible and quickly adapt to changed circumstances.

The Utovogh device could have been a useful intermediary in interactions between (some) Viruses and (some) Vargr. Pre-Virus utovogh programs tended to present the images of charismatic vargr characters. If Viruses tend to be influenced by the hardware they are in, it is likely enough that some will tend to behave like charismatic Vargr.

At that point they have the basis for a place in Vargr society.

Of course, the result is likely to be a Mother or God strain Virus, as insane as any other example of the type, but the Vargr would be relatively capable of dealing with them.

As for all the Puppeteers and so on, it's quite conceivable that most of them might be more interested in eliminating Lucan than wandering aimlessly around in Vargr space.

Finally, I'm a bit vague on the astrography now, but Sabmiqys, the interdicted world inhabited by TL17 AIs was up towards Vargr space. I've always wondered how they would react to more primitive AIs trying to take over their brains.

I could see a pocket empire forming near Sabmiqys, once the local Viruses learn to give it a wide berth.

Incidentally, a pocket empire isn't necessarily more than two or three worlds and a handful of ships. There's nothing especially clever involved. Even the ships are as likely as not to be Free Traders. The Vargr would be perfectly capable of forming these kind of states, without any great social stress.

It's likely there's a vampire highway there, but probably more diffuse than
the one by Cymbelline. Black Curtain swallows up anything as close to
Capital as the Diaspora highway was to Cymbeline, though.

___
>From my T989
On Oct 19, 2012 12:05 PM, "DED" <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks, Eamon.
>
> I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
> ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
> chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
> Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
> Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
> would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
> that they'd get infected.
>
> More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
> infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
> and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
> drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
> this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
> host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
> were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
> computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
> destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.
>
> After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
> were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
> to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
> required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
> But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
> else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
> don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
> TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.
>
> Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
> direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
> know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
> Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
> most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
> civilization..."
>
> While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
> Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
> collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
> have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
> astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
> its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
> from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
> Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
> buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)
>
> On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
> to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
> through Lishun and Meshan?
>
> \_/
> DED
>
> ================
> Eamon Watters wrote:
>
> A general reply here.
>
> On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
> Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
> flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
> Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
> said, there may be rich picking all around.
>
> There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
> ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
> if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
> the transponder.
>
> States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
> traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
> subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
> exported from the factions of the Imperium?
>
> I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
> states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
> warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.
>
>

I don't have my books with me but I was of the impression that the Vampire Highway in Diaspora was really more about flow going towards Core with a little doing the Cymbline pilgrimage but most of it heading back into the balck curtain. I think that the Marie Elise was picked up by the Covenant of Suffer wasn't it? Making it heading towards Core rather than away. Sadly work sucks for research, I should bring them with me one day as I'm working graveyards right now... zzzzzzz.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Master Uxi" <>
To: "Traveller TNE" <>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 5:32:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

It's likely there's a vampire highway there, but probably more diffuse than the one by Cymbelline. Black Curtain swallows up anything as close to Capital as the Diaspora highway was to Cymbeline, though.
___
>From my T989
On Oct 19, 2012 12:05 PM, "DED" < > wrote:

Thanks, Eamon.

I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.

More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.

After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.

Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."

While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)

On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?

\_/
DED

================
Eamon Watters wrote:

A general reply here.

On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.

There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.

States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?

I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.

Vampire Fleets said there two main flows of traffic. "Pilgrims" to
Cymbeline heading Rimward and Doomslayers going Coreward to attempt
vengeance on Lucan, often fighting each other.

>From Vargr space, much harder for any Pilgrims to get through, so I imagine
any that would are giving the Imperial Core a wider birth on a separate
route while Doomslayers are getting "Eaten" by the Puppeteers in fairly
quick order.

___
>From my T989
On Oct 20, 2012 9:28 PM, "Derek Stanley" <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I don't have my books with me but I was of the impression that the Vampire
> Highway in Diaspora was really more about flow going towards Core with a
> little doing the Cymbline pilgrimage but most of it heading back into the
> balck curtain. I think that the Marie Elise was picked up by the Covenant
> of Suffer wasn't it? Making it heading towards Core rather than away.
> Sadly work sucks for research, I should bring them with me one day as I'm
> working graveyards right now... zzzzzzz.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Master Uxi" <>
> *To: *"Traveller TNE" <>
> *Sent: *Saturday, October 20, 2012 5:32:50 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
>
>
>
> It's likely there's a vampire highway there, but probably more diffuse
> than the one by Cymbelline. Black Curtain swallows up anything as close
> to Capital as the Diaspora highway was to Cymbeline, though.
>
> ___
> From my T989
> On Oct 19, 2012 12:05 PM, "DED" <> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Eamon.
>>
>> I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
>> ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
>> chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
>> Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
>> Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
>> would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
>> that they'd get infected.
>>
>> More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
>> infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
>> and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
>> drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
>> this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
>> host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
>> were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
>> computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
>> destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.
>>
>> After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
>> were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
>> to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
>> required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
>> But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
>> else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
>> don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
>> TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.
>>
>> Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
>> direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
>> know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
>> Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
>> most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
>> civilization..."
>>
>> While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
>> Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
>> collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
>> have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
>> astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
>> its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
>> from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
>> Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
>> buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)
>>
>> On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
>> to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
>> through Lishun and Meshan?
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>>
>> ================
>> Eamon Watters wrote:
>>
>> A general reply here.
>>
>> On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
>> Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
>> flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
>> Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
>> said, there may be rich picking all around.
>>
>> There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
>> ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
>> if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
>> the transponder.
>>
>> States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
>> traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
>> subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
>> exported from the factions of the Imperium?
>>
>> I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
>> states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
>> warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.
>>
>
>
>

You know that somewhere out there, there's an SS F.L. Baum with "The Great and Terrible Oz!" as it's virus strain.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Master Uxi" <>
To: "Traveller TNE" <>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 9:53:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

Vampire Fleets said there two main flows of traffic. "Pilgrims" to Cymbeline heading Rimward and Doomslayers going Coreward to attempt vengeance on Lucan, often fighting each other.
>From Vargr space, much harder for any Pilgrims to get through, so I imagine any that would are giving the Imperial Core a wider birth on a separate route while Doomslayers are getting "Eaten" by the Puppeteers in fairly quick order.

___
>From my T989

On Oct 20, 2012 9:28 PM, "Derek Stanley" < > wrote:

I don't have my books with me but I was of the impression that the Vampire Highway in Diaspora was really more about flow going towards Core with a little doing the Cymbline pilgrimage but most of it heading back into the balck curtain. I think that the Marie Elise was picked up by the Covenant of Suffer wasn't it? Making it heading towards Core rather than away. Sadly work sucks for research, I should bring them with me one day as I'm working graveyards right now... zzzzzzz.

From: "Master Uxi" < >
To: "Traveller TNE" < >
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 5:32:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

It's likely there's a vampire highway there, but probably more diffuse than the one by Cymbelline. Black Curtain swallows up anything as close to Capital as the Diaspora highway was to Cymbeline, though.
___
>From my T989
On Oct 19, 2012 12:05 PM, "DED" < > wrote:

<blockquote>

Thanks, Eamon.

I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.

More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.

After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.

Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."

While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)

On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?

\_/
DED

================
Eamon Watters wrote:

A general reply here.

On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.

There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.

States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?

I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.

</blockquote>

Thanks, Richard.

Yes, you're right. The Vampire Highway was indeed that pilgrimage to
birthplaces. I'd forgotten about that. Getting rusty in me noggin'. So
if I were to come up with some other vampire highways for MTU, I'd have
to have an equally compelling reason. That will require some thought.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's POV) Martin didn't
give any indication that Virus altered Vargr society in a positive
manner (increased stability). It appears to have remained just as
volatile as it ever was. However, that very adaptation to chaos enabled
them to accept Virus as just part of life. Martin likened the attitude
as a dealing with "a dangerous carnivore" rather than say the Regency's
fear of everything outside the Quarantine as instant death.

\_/
DED

===================
Richard Perks wrote:
Re the vampire highway, that was specifically between core where Lucan
created the virus and Cymbeline, where the deyo chips originated. Its
effectively a pilgrimage to birth places. Not sure there is anything
similar out towards the extents. Two other places the vamps may visit -
site of the omicron research station but that's in the core sector, and
the original labs that developed the deyo transponder. Don't remember
anything said about where that was.

As for virus infection of meshan. There would be enough deyo equipped
vargr merchants and cross border raiders + captured imperial merchant
shipping (don't forget Lishun fell to the vargr with very little fight
after the fleet was recalled, and the league of antares was very
friendly with the Julians for a while) for the virus to cross the
border, after that the books say it slows as it works out the new alien
systems and then spreads again. How much vargr infrastructure is stolen
imperial equipment or copied from imperial designs - the 101 robots book
has vargr knockoffs of imperial robots.

Given the vargr pack mentality, their defenses would be insufficient, no
warning from Strephon here. Some local pack leader would either run away
or attempt a heroic strike and generate a fatal hole in the defense
line, same with electronic quarantine. Pocket empire after pocket empire
would fall.

This might even be the catastrophic event that starts a slow change in
vargr culture and makes them a bit more stable / willing to follow
orders. Only new PE that have some internal discipline are likely to
withstand repeated infection attempts.

Cheers
Richard

Thank you Alan,

If the utovogh devices could've been infected by a stable viral entity,
say a puppeteer, then maybe some interplay between the two could've been
achieved. The main question becomes: What are the minimum system
requirements for Virus? Would the utovogh devices have the same capacity
as starships, vehicles, and robots?

Yes, Vargr are certainly more flexible than humans and could adapt to
Virus. Martin hints at that in /Out of the Darkness/. He writes that
"many societies were able to keep functioning (after a fashion) despite
it." But as far as incorporating Virus into Vargr society, that didn't
go so well. "Some hideous societies emerged, ruled by Virus or by
Vargr/Virus alliances." That sounds like there were/are Viral Hells to
be found in the former Extents. It doesn't sound like the Extents (now
the Splinters) saw any widespread cooperation with Virus a la Sandman
and the RC. It does exist though, but in limited fashion. "By 1195 some
societies had even learned to interact with Virus in a meaningful
fashion, though this was fraught with danger as most Viral Entities were
highly unstable and inimical to organic life."

As I wrote in my previous post to Richard Perks, by 1200 in the OTU
Vargr have adapted to Virus as just another part of life. It is the
"dangerous carnivore" that stalks them in the night.

I don't know about Puppeteers "wandering aimlessly" in the
Extents/Splinters. I think that on the local level they're going to want
to punish their creators just as the /Kishkii/ went to punish Trin.
Perhaps the "Kill Lucan" faction won out in the end, but not until the
others achieved their goals.

Sabmiqys is in Antares sector. Originally the robots concluded that
space travel held little to no value. Would that have changed after
Virus showed up? There's no official indication that they did.
Considering that they were xenophobic isolationists, I can't imagine
that going well.

\_/
DED

=========================================
alanbgam wrote:

"Richard Perks" wrote:
> This might even be the catastrophic event that starts a slow change
> in vargr culture and makes them a bit more stable / willing to
> follow orders. Only new PE that have some internal discipline are
> likely to withstand repeated infection attempts.

It would be equally likely that Vargr would simply assimilate Virus into
their society.

The big advantage Vargr have over humans in the TU is that they are
flexible and quickly adapt to changed circumstances.

The Utovogh device could have been a useful intermediary in interactions
between (some) Viruses and (some) Vargr. Pre-Virus utovogh programs
tended to present the images of charismatic vargr characters. If Viruses
tend to be influenced by the hardware they are in, it is likely enough
that some will tend to behave like charismatic Vargr.

At that point they have the basis for a place in Vargr society.

Of course, the result is likely to be a Mother or God strain Virus, as
insane as any other example of the type, but the Vargr would be
relatively capable of dealing with them.

As for all the Puppeteers and so on, it's quite conceivable that most of
them might be more interested in eliminating Lucan than wandering
aimlessly around in Vargr space.

Finally, I'm a bit vague on the astrography now, but Sabmiqys, the
interdicted world inhabited by TL17 AIs was up towards Vargr space. I've
always wondered how they would react to more primitive AIs trying to
take over their brains.

I could see a pocket empire forming near Sabmiqys, once the local
Viruses learn to give it a wide berth.

Incidentally, a pocket empire isn't necessarily more than two or three
worlds and a handful of ships. There's nothing especially clever
involved. Even the ships are as likely as not to be Free Traders. The
Vargr would be perfectly capable of forming these kind of states,
without any great social stress.

DED wrote:
> The main question becomes: What are the minimum system
> requirements for Virus? Would the utovogh devices have the same
> capacity as starships, vehicles, and robots?

I would imagine utovogh devices would be on board ships, or connected to planetary networks. Plenty of capacity there.

I'm going to give another general-ish reply here, especially as there have been so many posts on the topic. I'm very slow to get replies out these days as I can run 6 to 7 day working weeks at this time of year.

Regarding the Extents I think there are some factors that have to be borne in mind:

1. Yes, there are still going to be Vargr ships with the Deyo Transponder in 1120. But with the collapse of the Imperium ships that are out raiding are going to have to destroy their transponders - only military vessels (presumably Imperial ones) can switch off their transponders. There is also a question of how many Vargr ships needed the transponder in the first place - i.e. are ships from the coreward half of Meshan going to need them at all, and how many traders are going to bother with cross-border hassles in the Rimward half?

2. Organised Vargr states will have to replace ships that have eschewed trade and gone off to take a slice of the spoils of war. These ships will likely not have the Deyo as there is no formal Imperium to supply the transponders.

3. Technological standards. It's my impression that Vargr tech is varied, with no formal standards - if this is the case then the problems that slowed down Virus in the Hierate will also be at work in the Extents.

4. The varied vectors of Virus (love alliteration!). Yes, the Deyo transponder is not the only way of transmitting Virus - but it is the easiest way, at least according to TNE1201. Not having transponders at ports and bases gives them a bit more of a chance of avoiding infection.

5. The net coreward traffic. Virus infected ships are going to be as much a target for the Vargr as non-infected ones. This slows the spread of virus per TNE1201. Vargr ships are also going to be returning to base - but there are bound to be forward bases for the raiding ships, adding another step between the raiders and the Extents. 

6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector. 

________________________________
From: DED
Sent: Saturday, 20 October 2012, 4:05
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance


 
Thanks, Eamon.

I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.

More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.

After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.

Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."

While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)

On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?

\_/
DED

================
Eamon Watters wrote:

A general reply here.

On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.

There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.

States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?

I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.

On 24/10/2012 19:26, Eamon Watters wrote:

> 6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones
> engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or
> paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't
> think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then
> it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home
> has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that
> something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector.

News breaks out how? The Deyo transponders are not the only way Virus
transfers. It gets in all the systems, and those ships bringing the news
are also going to be infected. They talk to people to warn them - and
infect them at the same time. And so it goes...

I think the assumtion that every ship returning is infected is simply off
the mark. Like any pandemic yes a lot will be infected but not everyone.
Simply by statistical chance 'will' get infected but not all.

The virus is a way to reset civilization back to a frontier state in the
traveller universe. Each game master needs to make a decision on what
seems plausible for their setting.

1. Ships will return infected.
2. Ships will return uninfected.

The timing and causality of these two things are what causes regions to be
shaped post outbreak.

I would also disagree with the sentiment that 'only military' crewed
vessels can 'turn off' their transponders. Any sufficiently technical
engineer should have the knowledge to stop, start, or manipulate the
transponder hardware as needed because after all these same individuals can
maintain and repair complex machinery found aboard a starship after all.

This technique is arguably even more important for crews/ships
participating in 'raiding'. .

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Rupert Boleyn <>wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 24/10/2012 19:26, Eamon Watters wrote:
>
> > 6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones
> > engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or
> > paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't
> > think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then
> > it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home
> > has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that
> > something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector.
>
> News breaks out how? The Deyo transponders are not the only way Virus
> transfers. It gets in all the systems, and those ships bringing the news
> are also going to be infected. They talk to people to warn them - and
> infect them at the same time. And so it goes...
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

Remember, though, Survival Margin said that military ships didn't "turn
off" their transponders, they just had a "mute." They were always
"listening" and thus subject to infection.

I agree, though, it won't be as thorough and severe as in the Imperium, but
out will still spread. I pondered this thinking of the spread of Virus and
the Collapse in the Solomani Confederation.

For polities outside the Imperium:
1) not every ship is going to have a Deyo transponder, just those that need
to cross the border. I would expect close to zero military ships, and
certainly none of the big ones.

2) Survival Margin also says that even Dulinor's flagship had circumvented
data security measures at Omicron to try to get and then interpret the
data. Ergo that's going to be far less likely outside those rather specific
circumstances.

3) there are definitely other vectors and Virus will still spread, but I'd
argue it's fairly high probability once the interface ships come back in
and begin to spread, data security measures will tighten.
Not enough, by any means, and there will probably be some placebo and false
confidence inspired but the truly paranoid (and highly disciplined security
conscious) will be able to avoid to some degree as the nature of the threat
is witnessed and observed.

The infrastructure problem will still be unavoidable in ultimate collapse,
though pockets are likely to form that first refuse data/computer
connections and then work on countermeasures.

IMTU, the Knights of St George got to that step (along with certain
elements of the Turin Consolidation military and intel), but to little/late
to avoid Collapse.

Those at that state then get to face Vampires doing it the hard way...

___
>From my T989
On Oct 24, 2012 7:40 AM, "John Potter" <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I think the assumtion that every ship returning is infected is simply off
> the mark. Like any pandemic yes a lot will be infected but not everyone.
> Simply by statistical chance 'will' get infected but not all.
>
> The virus is a way to reset civilization back to a frontier state in the
> traveller universe. Each game master needs to make a decision on what
> seems plausible for their setting.
>
> 1. Ships will return infected.
> 2. Ships will return uninfected.
>
> The timing and causality of these two things are what causes regions to be
> shaped post outbreak.
>
> I would also disagree with the sentiment that 'only military' crewed
> vessels can 'turn off' their transponders. Any sufficiently technical
> engineer should have the knowledge to stop, start, or manipulate the
> transponder hardware as needed because after all these same individuals can
> maintain and repair complex machinery found aboard a starship after all.
>
> This technique is arguably even more important for crews/ships
> participating in 'raiding'. .
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Rupert Boleyn <>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> On 24/10/2012 19:26, Eamon Watters wrote:
>>
>> > 6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones
>> > engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or
>> > paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't
>> > think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then
>> > it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home
>> > has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that
>> > something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector.
>>
>> News breaks out how? The Deyo transponders are not the only way Virus
>> transfers. It gets in all the systems, and those ships bringing the news
>> are also going to be infected. They talk to people to warn them - and
>> infect them at the same time. And so it goes...
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> would have been deserved.
>
>

Not sure I agree with 2. Omicron's computer as ransacked by commandoes in a hurry and the info and virus transmitted to Dulinor's fleet via a secure freindly channel and hence via interfleet comms to the rest. This will bypass a lot of data security.

There are tonns of ways for virus to get into military ships and bases. From transponders of cross border ships to inferface starports or by direct connections when a ship docks. From that infected port to any ship that docks or pings transponders (deyo or vargr) with the ports traffic control. From the port computer to the commercial datanet and various companies and the library data service and then its in the planetary data net.

Military bases get infected the same way - their traffic monitoring will be taking transponder pings. It get infected by a cross border deyo and will then spread it to every transponder it pings. It infects any military ship that docks. Small military ships get infected when boarding parties plug in hand comps to check cargo manifests etc. They pass it to bases and other navy vessels by fleet comms. Plus the military bases will have data-tieins with the civilian datanets.

This thing is a TL16/17 artificial intelligence working at computer speeds and is capable to burning new circuits. It will run rings around typical data protection software, Once into a system it will isolate any normal anti-virus software and all the while it will keep on telling you everything is fine. We have instances of it doing just that - see survival margin or The Guilded Lilly. The Poor vargr are mostly TL13 to TL10. They are stuffed.

We know the virus sits in a computer learning how it operates before it manifests itself. By the time you get a warning, your system has been infected for several days and you have already passed it to outgoing ships who will not show symptoms for several days. I can see several PEs thinking they have beefed up their computer defences only to fall to virus that just walks around their version of Norton or was present before they beefed up the defences.

Very few worlds will get the alarm without also getting a dose of virus. By the time a world is showing obvious virus effects and ships flee carrying the warning, those fleeing ships are already infected. Unaffected types will be typical PCs, minor raiders and smugglers and low tech types. The only protection is to get lucky and sever all electronic communications as per the Marches - or not to have any electronics in the first place (TL5/6 ish or lower)

As for people being able to modifiy the transponder. Its designed to stop that, I think they said the deyo has anti-tamper than reduces the transponder to slag and the evolution rate of the virus is constant so if you turn it off, your transponder is out of sync and you can't resync. It is designed to show tampering so the IN / SPA / other ships knopw you have a dubious transponder. Yes people can turn them off but not back on in any useable fashion

Cheers
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: Master Uxi
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

Remember, though, Survival Margin said that military ships didn't "turn off" their transponders, they just had a "mute." They were always "listening" and thus subject to infection.

I agree, though, it won't be as thorough and severe as in the Imperium, but out will still spread. I pondered this thinking of the spread of Virus and the Collapse in the Solomani Confederation.

For polities outside the Imperium:
1) not every ship is going to have a Deyo transponder, just those that need to cross the border. I would expect close to zero military ships, and certainly none of the big ones.

2) Survival Margin also says that even Dulinor's flagship had circumvented data security measures at Omicron to try to get and then interpret the data. Ergo that's going to be far less likely outside those rather specific circumstances.

3) there are definitely other vectors and Virus will still spread, but I'd argue it's fairly high probability once the interface ships come back in and begin to spread, data security measures will tighten.
Not enough, by any means, and there will probably be some placebo and false confidence inspired but the truly paranoid (and highly disciplined security conscious) will be able to avoid to some degree as the nature of the threat is witnessed and observed.

The infrastructure problem will still be unavoidable in ultimate collapse, though pockets are likely to form that first refuse data/computer connections and then work on countermeasures.

IMTU, the Knights of St George got to that step (along with certain elements of the Turin Consolidation military and intel), but to little/late to avoid Collapse.

Those at that state then get to face Vampires doing it the hard way...

___
From my T989

On Oct 24, 2012 7:40 AM, "John Potter" <> wrote:

I think the assumtion that every ship returning is infected is simply off the mark. Like any pandemic yes a lot will be infected but not everyone. Simply by statistical chance 'will' get infected but not all.

The virus is a way to reset civilization back to a frontier state in the traveller universe. Each game master needs to make a decision on what seems plausible for their setting.

1. Ships will return infected.
2. Ships will return uninfected.

The timing and causality of these two things are what causes regions to be shaped post outbreak.

I would also disagree with the sentiment that 'only military' crewed vessels can 'turn off' their transponders. Any sufficiently technical engineer should have the knowledge to stop, start, or manipulate the transponder hardware as needed because after all these same individuals can maintain and repair complex machinery found aboard a starship after all.

This technique is arguably even more important for crews/ships participating in 'raiding'. .

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Rupert Boleyn <> wrote:

On 24/10/2012 19:26, Eamon Watters wrote:

> 6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones
> engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or
> paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't
> think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then
> it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home
> has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that
> something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector.

News breaks out how? The Deyo transponders are not the only way Virus
transfers. It gets in all the systems, and those ships bringing the news
are also going to be infected. They talk to people to warn them - and
infect them at the same time. And so it goes...

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you would have been deserved.

As far as 2, I don't think Vargr military bases or civilian starports will
have a direct Deyo interface any more than the average ship, except at
border interface points to authenticate Imperial ships.

any polity at all inimical to the imperials, would most likely keep a
Faraday cage equivalent nearby, if not have provision to completely isolate
the section around the transponder system as an obvious espionage vector, I
would think. Not that I think they'd be at all expecting, much less
prepared for, the likes of Virus, so maybe it's splitting hairs on them
since I agree those border Ports are going to be infected lickitty split. I
just think bases and star Ports in the interior of polity won't be
vulnerable to the Imperial transponder vector, though infected native ships
without Deyo transponders will also be showing up soon enough.

Definitely with you on false confidence on dealing with it, too. I just
think the rate of infection will be a bit slower without the transponder as
pervasive or ubiquitous in the other interstellar states. Especially one as
fractious as the Extents.

cliffs notes version: infection is nigh instantaneous in the Imperium but
"just" extremely contagious everywhere else. Still an electronic pandemic,
though.

___
>From my T989

On 25/10/2012 05:24, Richard Perks wrote:

> As for people being able to modifiy the transponder. Its designed to
> stop that, I think they said the deyo has anti-tamper than reduces
> the transponder to slag and the evolution rate of the virus is
> constant so if you turn it off, your transponder is out of sync and
> you can't resync. It is designed to show tampering so the IN / SPA /
> other ships knopw you have a dubious transponder. Yes people can turn
> them off but not back on in any useable fashion

I expect that a skilled crew could mute one without making it show as
dubious, the same way that a military one can be - if they know that
this is an option, which they won't unless they're privy to some
extremely classified information on the transponder's nature.

However, in my view that's not really the problem. the real problem is
the ubiquitous nature of datalinks in the Imperium and its neighbours.
Once Virus is in a system, it's in everything that touches that system,
and everything that touches that system... There will be eggs in the
mail, every ship that docks with a station will link to its network to
do business, download the news, and so on, so they spread Virus, or get
infected (or both).

So your ship doesn't hook into the local net, because you're dodgy and
the locals are dodgy and everyone is happier that way. It's all good -
until your cargomaster takes his tablet with him when making a pickup on
some cargo, and it gets infected. Then he brings it, and the egg it
carries, on board. Sometime in the next few days, your ship is no longer
yours.

If you're using gear past TL7, basically, you're screwed, and death
travels with you.

On 25/10/2012 12:51, Master Uxi wrote:

> cliffs notes version: infection is nigh instantaneous in the Imperium but
> "just" extremely contagious everywhere else. Still an electronic pandemic,
> though.

One thing to note - the Extents is only chaotic and fractious by
Imperial and Zhodani standards. By the standards of modern Earth, it's
actually pretty stable in many places - there are polities there that
cover a sector and have lasted centuries. Remember, the Vilanii consider
the Romans, Persians, and Chinese empires to have been unstable and
short-lived, and culturally the Imperium was mostly Vilanii. The Zhodani
seem to hold similar views, and plan in the very long term.

Also, the Vargr don't seem to have major trouble moving assets from one
polity to another when they change sides, which suggests something
resembling either consistent standards or system designed to interface
easily with other systems built to differing standards. Neither is
encouraging when looking at resistance to infection.

possibly true dat but it sorta begs the question how much ram/whatever is needed for this AI virus?  How much then would be on a typical hand-held device?
Depending on whose data pad is used it might have enough for the virus to spread, but if not, then maybe not such a problem ... still and all most ships/stations could get infected via what are considered secure links.  On the flip side secure systems are constantly monitored for infection, because infections of one kind or another happen all the time.  The only real difference here is that virus can write-rewrite chips in order to give it a home.
Tim

From: Rupert Boleyn <>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:34 AM
>Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
>
> 
>On 25/10/2012 05:24, Richard Perks wrote:
>
>> As for people being able to modifiy the transponder. Its designed to
>> stop that, I think they said the deyo has anti-tamper than reduces
>> the transponder to slag and the evolution rate of the virus is
>> constant so if you turn it off, your transponder is out of sync and
>> you can't resync. It is designed to show tampering so the IN / SPA /
>> other ships knopw you have a dubious transponder. Yes people can turn
>> them off but not back on in any useable fashion
>
>I expect that a skilled crew could mute one without making it show as
>dubious, the same way that a military one can be - if they know that
>this is an option, which they won't unless they're privy to some
>extremely classified information on the transponder's nature.
>
>However, in my view that's not really the problem. the real problem is
>the ubiquitous nature of datalinks in the Imperium and its neighbours.
>Once Virus is in a system, it's in everything that touches that system,
>and everything that touches that system... There will be eggs in the
>mail, every ship that docks with a station will link to its network to
>do business, download the news, and so on, so they spread Virus, or get
>infected (or both).
>
>So your ship doesn't hook into the local net, because you're dodgy and
>the locals are dodgy and everyone is happier that way. It's all good -
>until your cargomaster takes his tablet with him when making a pickup on
>some cargo, and it gets infected. Then he brings it, and the egg it
>carries, on board. Sometime in the next few days, your ship is no longer
>yours.
>
>If you're using gear past TL7, basically, you're screwed, and death
>travels with you.
>
>

I believe in the Vampire Fleets or another book, it states that a 9N
computer is required to 'host' the virus.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Tim O'Reilly <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> possibly true dat but it sorta begs the question how much ram/whatever is
> needed for this AI virus? How much then would be on a typical hand-held
> device?
> Depending on whose data pad is used it might have enough for the virus to
> spread, but if not, then maybe not such a problem ... still and all most
> ships/stations could get infected via what are considered secure links. On
> the flip side secure systems are constantly monitored for infection,
> because infections of one kind or another happen all the time. The only
> real difference here is that virus can write-rewrite chips in order to give
> it a home.
> Tim
>
>
> *From:* Rupert Boleyn <>
> *To:*
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:34 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
> **
>
> On 25/10/2012 05:24, Richard Perks wrote:
>
> > As for people being able to modifiy the transponder. Its designed to
> > stop that, I think they said the deyo has anti-tamper than reduces
> > the transponder to slag and the evolution rate of the virus is
> > constant so if you turn it off, your transponder is out of sync and
> > you can't resync. It is designed to show tampering so the IN / SPA /
> > other ships knopw you have a dubious transponder. Yes people can turn
> > them off but not back on in any useable fashion
>
> I expect that a skilled crew could mute one without making it show as
> dubious, the same way that a military one can be - if they know that
> this is an option, which they won't unless they're privy to some
> extremely classified information on the transponder's nature.
>
> However, in my view that's not really the problem. the real problem is
> the ubiquitous nature of datalinks in the Imperium and its neighbours.
> Once Virus is in a system, it's in everything that touches that system,
> and everything that touches that system... There will be eggs in the
> mail, every ship that docks with a station will link to its network to
> do business, download the news, and so on, so they spread Virus, or get
> infected (or both).
>
> So your ship doesn't hook into the local net, because you're dodgy and
> the locals are dodgy and everyone is happier that way. It's all good -
> until your cargomaster takes his tablet with him when making a pickup on
> some cargo, and it gets infected. Then he brings it, and the egg it
> carries, on board. Sometime in the next few days, your ship is no longer
> yours.
>
> If you're using gear past TL7, basically, you're screwed, and death
> travels with you.
> ****
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

We know that virus can leave an egg. As for how much RAM etc. its probably worst with a high tech device - look at our mobiles and tablets. I remember when a PC with 48K was good and now my phone has a memory card the size of my little finger nail with GBs of space. Trav hand computers seem to indicate that sort of computer power / memory increase is still going on. I can see virus being able to live in TL14/15 hand computers etc. so people with fancy tech will get hit more. There must be some cut-off about TL11/12ish where it can't live in a portable device, and another lower TL limit TL8ish where a portable device is too small for an egg. But connect that to a big computer like that on a ship and bang - instant virus.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Reilly
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

possibly true dat but it sorta begs the question how much ram/whatever is needed for this AI virus? How much then would be on a typical hand-held device?
Depending on whose data pad is used it might have enough for the virus to spread, but if not, then maybe not such a problem ... still and all most ships/stations could get infected via what are considered secure links. On the flip side secure systems are constantly monitored for infection, because infections of one kind or another happen all the time. The only real difference here is that virus can write-rewrite chips in order to give it a home.
Tim

From: Rupert Boleyn <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance

On 25/10/2012 05:24, Richard Perks wrote:

> As for people being able to modifiy the transponder. Its designed to
> stop that, I think they said the deyo has anti-tamper than reduces
> the transponder to slag and the evolution rate of the virus is
> constant so if you turn it off, your transponder is out of sync and
> you can't resync. It is designed to show tampering so the IN / SPA /
> other ships knopw you have a dubious transponder. Yes people can turn
> them off but not back on in any useable fashion

I expect that a skilled crew could mute one without making it show as
dubious, the same way that a military one can be - if they know that
this is an option, which they won't unless they're privy to some
extremely classified information on the transponder's nature.

However, in my view that's not really the problem. the real problem is
the ubiquitous nature of datalinks in the Imperium and its neighbours.
Once Virus is in a system, it's in everything that touches that system,
and everything that touches that system... There will be eggs in the
mail, every ship that docks with a station will link to its network to
do business, download the news, and so on, so they spread Virus, or get
infected (or both).

So your ship doesn't hook into the local net, because you're dodgy and
the locals are dodgy and everyone is happier that way. It's all good -
until your cargomaster takes his tablet with him when making a pickup on
some cargo, and it gets infected. Then he brings it, and the egg it
carries, on board. Sometime in the next few days, your ship is no longer
yours.

If you're using gear past TL7, basically, you're screwed, and death
travels with you.

'Kay, thanks I'd forgotten about the 'egg' part
Tim

From: Richard Perks <>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:26 PM
>Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
>
> 
>
>We know that virus can leave an egg. As for how much RAM etc. its probably worst with a high tech device - look at our mobiles and tablets. I remember when a PC with 48K was good and now my phone has a memory card the size of my little finger nail with GBs of space. Trav hand computers seem to indicate that sort of computer power / memory increase is still going on. I can see virus being able to live in TL14/15 hand computers etc. so people with fancy tech will get hit more. There must be some cut-off about TL11/12ish where it can't live in a portable device, and another lower TL limit TL8ish where a portable device is too small for an egg. But connect that to a big computer like that on a ship and bang - instant virus.
> 
>
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Tim O'Reilly
>>To:
>>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 3:33 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
>>
>> 
>>possibly true dat but it sorta begs the question how much ram/whatever is needed for this AI virus?  How much then would be on a typical hand-held device?
>>Depending on whose data pad is used it might have enough for the virus to spread, but if not, then maybe not such a problem ... still and all most ships/stations could get infected via what are considered secure links.  On the flip side secure systems are constantly monitored for infection, because infections of one kind or another happen all the time.  The only real difference here is that virus can write-rewrite chips in order to give it a home.
>>Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Rupert Boleyn <>
>>>To:
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:34 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
>>>
>>> 
>>>On 25/10/2012 05:24, Richard Perks wrote:> As for people being able to modifiy the transponder. Its designed to> stop that, I think they said the deyo has anti-tamper than reduces> the transponder to slag and the evolution rate of the virus is> constant so if you turn it off, your transponder is out of sync and> you can't resync. It is designed to show tampering so the IN / SPA /> other ships knopw you have a dubious transponder. Yes people can turn> them off but not back on in any useable fashionI expect that a skilled crew could mute one without making it show as dubious, the same way that a military one can be - if they know that this is an option, which they won't unless they're privy to some extremely classified information on the transponder's nature.However, in my view that's not really the problem. the real problem is the ubiquitous nature of datalinks in the Imperium and its neighbours. Once Virus is in a system, it's in everything that
touches that system, and everything that touches that system... There will be eggs in the mail, every ship that docks with a station will link to its network to do business, download the news, and so on, so they spread Virus, or get infected (or both).So your ship doesn't hook into the local net, because you're dodgy and the locals are dodgy and everyone is happier that way. It's all good - until your cargomaster takes his tablet with him when making a pickup on some cargo, and it gets infected. Then he brings it, and the egg it carries, on board. Sometime in the next few days, your ship is no longer yours.If you're using gear past TL7, basically, you're screwed, and death travels with you.
>

On 26/10/2012 15:29, Tim O'Reilly wrote:
> 'Kay, thanks I'd forgotten about the 'egg' part

My players have a policy of junking any electronics they find that
aren't still in their packing unless they're worth millions (at that
point they start wondering if it's worth the time and risk to check for
Virus).

Risk? don't they have canaries?

___
>From my T989
On Oct 25, 2012 9:51 PM, "Rupert Boleyn" <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 26/10/2012 15:29, Tim O'Reilly wrote:
> > 'Kay, thanks I'd forgotten about the 'egg' part
>
> My players have a policy of junking any electronics they find that
> aren't still in their packing unless they're worth millions (at that
> point they start wondering if it's worth the time and risk to check for
> Virus).
>
>
>