I'm going to give another general-ish reply here, especially as there have been so many posts on the topic. I'm very slow to get replies out these days as I can run 6 to 7 day working weeks at this time of year.
Regarding the Extents I think there are some factors that have to be borne in mind:
1. Yes, there are still going to be Vargr ships with the Deyo Transponder in 1120. But with the collapse of the Imperium ships that are out raiding are going to have to destroy their transponders - only military vessels (presumably Imperial ones) can switch off their transponders. There is also a question of how many Vargr ships needed the transponder in the first place - i.e. are ships from the coreward half of Meshan going to need them at all, and how many traders are going to bother with cross-border hassles in the Rimward half?
2. Organised Vargr states will have to replace ships that have eschewed trade and gone off to take a slice of the spoils of war. These ships will likely not have the Deyo as there is no formal Imperium to supply the transponders.
3. Technological standards. It's my impression that Vargr tech is varied, with no formal standards - if this is the case then the problems that slowed down Virus in the Hierate will also be at work in the Extents.
4. The varied vectors of Virus (love alliteration!). Yes, the Deyo transponder is not the only way of transmitting Virus - but it is the easiest way, at least according to TNE1201. Not having transponders at ports and bases gives them a bit more of a chance of avoiding infection.
5. The net coreward traffic. Virus infected ships are going to be as much a target for the Vargr as non-infected ones. This slows the spread of virus per TNE1201. Vargr ships are also going to be returning to base - but there are bound to be forward bases for the raiding ships, adding another step between the raiders and the Extents.
6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector.
________________________________
From: DED
Sent: Saturday, 20 October 2012, 4:05
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
Thanks, Eamon.
I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.
More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.
After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.
Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."
While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)
On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?
\_/
DED
================
Eamon Watters wrote:
A general reply here.
On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.
There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.
States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?
I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.
Regarding the Extents I think there are some factors that have to be borne in mind:
1. Yes, there are still going to be Vargr ships with the Deyo Transponder in 1120. But with the collapse of the Imperium ships that are out raiding are going to have to destroy their transponders - only military vessels (presumably Imperial ones) can switch off their transponders. There is also a question of how many Vargr ships needed the transponder in the first place - i.e. are ships from the coreward half of Meshan going to need them at all, and how many traders are going to bother with cross-border hassles in the Rimward half?
2. Organised Vargr states will have to replace ships that have eschewed trade and gone off to take a slice of the spoils of war. These ships will likely not have the Deyo as there is no formal Imperium to supply the transponders.
3. Technological standards. It's my impression that Vargr tech is varied, with no formal standards - if this is the case then the problems that slowed down Virus in the Hierate will also be at work in the Extents.
4. The varied vectors of Virus (love alliteration!). Yes, the Deyo transponder is not the only way of transmitting Virus - but it is the easiest way, at least according to TNE1201. Not having transponders at ports and bases gives them a bit more of a chance of avoiding infection.
5. The net coreward traffic. Virus infected ships are going to be as much a target for the Vargr as non-infected ones. This slows the spread of virus per TNE1201. Vargr ships are also going to be returning to base - but there are bound to be forward bases for the raiding ships, adding another step between the raiders and the Extents.
6. Vargr ships themselves. Going by the Vargr ships in TNE, the ones engaged in raiding will likely be low-jump - either merchants or paramilitary. There will be some military vessels too - but I don't think there will be too many. If an infected ship turns for home then it is going to take many jumps to get there - adding to the time home has to prepare (as news leaks out) and adding to the chances that something (virus or breakdown) will eliminate the ship as a vector.
________________________________
From: DED
Sent: Saturday, 20 October 2012, 4:05
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Opposition Alliance
Thanks, Eamon.
I got the impression from /The Flaming Eye/ adventure that even vargr
ships along the Imperial border carried the Deyo transponders. Many just
chose to operate with them turned off when it suited them. IIRC, the
Deyo was a requirement for foreign ships in order to operate within
Imperial space. As cross border commerce was common up until 1120, I
would think that there would still be enough ships out there by 1130
that they'd get infected.
More importantly, the transponders were just the /initial /means of
infection, not the sole means. Allow any infected ship dataport access
and you're toast. I know you know this so I'm confused as to why you'd
drag starports and bases and their possible lack of transponders into
this. The ships were just the vector for transmission, not Virus' only
host. Once a ship was able to transmit data to other computers, they too
were infected, no matter their function. The only criteria was that the
computer have enough memory and processing power. Infection and
destruction in Meshan would've been thorough.
After infection, what they did next would obviously depend on what they
were infected with. Anything suicidal would likely stay relatively close
to it's infection point, depending on what sort of incubation period was
required for the virus to compromise these slightly different vessels.
But once those suicidal impulses were abandoned for "destroy everyone
else" urges (doomslayers, et al), then their range expands greatly. I
don't know if there's a timeline for the mutations. I know that the main
TNE book says that by 1140 almost all vampire ships are Puppeteers.
Anyway, at some point that outward flow of ships is going to reverse
direction. I think Meshan gets hit with lots of Doomslayers. I don't
know if you have a copy, but MJD's /Out of Darkness/ talks about the
Vargr Extents being hit hard (Meshan included). It states that "by 1140
most of the old Extents was deep Wilds with the odd island of
civilization..."
While Meshan's stellar density is less than its rimward neighbor,
Lishun, it still looks dense enough to me that the whole sector
collapses. While there are some gaps that require jump-4, these worlds
have enough closer neighbors that ruin the effectiveness of these
astrographic buffers. They just require Virus to take a longer route to
its victim (unless it's in a J4+ ship). I believe a small PE could arise
from the *rubble*, but not that a fragment of an old state survives.
Whatever's there, it's going to be weak. Unlike Vland, there aren't any
buried Ancient war machines to come to their rescue. ;-)
On a separate note, we know about the Vampire Highway that ran from Core
to near the RC. Could there be others, perhaps one that runs coreward
through Lishun and Meshan?
\_/
DED
================
Eamon Watters wrote:
A general reply here.
On the effects of Virus on Meshan, one of the factor favouring the
Domain of Deneb will apply, I think. That is that there will be a net
flow of raiding ships outward, though it may be less focused on the
Coreward direction, going spinward toward the Villani periphery. That
said, there may be rich picking all around.
There's also probably going to be a lack of Deyo transponders on raiding
ships, and probably on a majority of ships in Meshan. It's also arguable
if facilities like starports, bases, and small craft are going to have
the transponder.
States in Meshan may also have had to subsidize shipping to cover
traders going raider and leaving a deficit in transportation. Will this
subsidized shipping have Deyo transponders? Are they still being
exported from the factions of the Imperium?
I'd say given these factors that there's a chance of some state or
states in Meshan surviving in some reduced form, especially if advanced
warning is received, or the astrography is favourable to it.