Thread: Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

I actually did find a use for Shattered Ships of the Third Imperium once
upon a time. While it's designs were worthless for multiple reasons (not
the least of which was the MT system, but also the pure incoherence of many
of them). I didn't even really like the art... but it's prose on the
evolution of the capital ships in the 3I still resonates as a silver lining
on an otherwise dark cloud. Combined with CT Supplement 9 and TNE's
Battle Rider, the rough piece of charcoal is capable of some small amount
of polish. With the outline of the lineage from Shattered Ships of the
Imperium, I was able to conjecture some nice ideas (I'm rather fond of the
Panthera and have ideas for using them coming out of the Black Curtain with
PO'ed Cyber-Centaurs and their Meta-identity Eater Overlords.

Using CT Supplement 9, Supplement 5, MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered
Imperium, and TNE Battle Rider
Third Imperium Capital Ships

- BB-11. 300kt, J2G2. Sylean Federation Federation-class Battleship from
Long Night. No intact examples lasted beyond the First Civil War

- BB-12. 300kt, J3G3. Upgrade of BB-11 to Imperium-class and renown as
"mothership" of Third Imperium in use during reign of Cleon I through the
Pacification Campaigns and until the Vargr Campaigns Many rotated to
reserve fleets or member worlds and more than a few converted to museums or
monuments to the early wars of the Third Imperium. Cleon's personal
flagship was kept in vintage condition until it was destroyed in the Civil
War when one of the Barrack's Emperors used it as his flagship and was
killed in it's destruction.

- BB-13. 300kt, J3G3. Imperator-class early Third Imperium upgrade of
the BB-12 and main capital ship through Civil War Hybrid TL/spinal/weapons
upgrades of the original Sylean Fed battleship. Very few remaining in
service as of Rebellion and those almost entirely in Depot reserve fleets.
Most were decomissioned and destroyed in weapons testings though a couple
museum ships were preserved in the Sylean Federation.

- BI-13. 700kt, J4G4. Original Basileus-class designed as supership .
Intended to replaced BB-13/BB-12 though due to the enormous expense, most
sectors never saw more than one or two BatRons. Served through Third
Frontier War. Most were upgraded/refitted to BI-14 though a few isolated
examples remain in service toward the Imperial Core, where a few high
nobles/admirals strut around in these due to high sentimental value.
They're mostly archaic though still can serve certain roles well enough if
not as comfortably by its crew. None remained Behind the Claw.

- BL-13 lite. 200kt, J3G2. Voroshilief-class. Cost effective alternative
to completely replacing BB-12 with BI-13. Retired by end of Civil War,
where they did not perform well and were replaced with the BT/R-14 system.

- BT/R-14 std. 700k/30k J3G2/!JG5 Triumph-class Tender with 6x
Gallant-class Riders to replace BB-13 in face of design failures of
Voroshilief. Primary Imperial capital ship of the Solomani Rim War. Many
transferred to Depot reserve fleets until they were called up as the
BT/R-15 were decimanted in the Rebellion

- BI-14 dread. 700kt, J4G5. Kaiser-class refit/upgrade of BI-13. Most
BatRon were sent to the Depot mothball fleets, though a few were
decomissioned to museum ships and/or destroyed in weapons testing. One
functional ship kept at Depot/Deneb, which was reactivated and used as
Norris' flagship during Rebellion, cannibilizing the rest of the squadron
for repair parts. Rest of the BatRon restored for service in the Quarantine
during the Regency.

- BL-14 lite. 200kt, J4G5. Original Kokirrak and main battleship of late
TL14 Third Imperium

- BH-14 heavy. 500kt J4G5 - Panthera-class. Similar to later Tigress but
without the fighter complement and a much smaller rear superstructure. Not
as widely procured and more of a doctrine test platform based on lessons
learned from BI-13 and BB-13, though several BatRon were completed and kept
as a reaction force for the Emperor to send from Capital or Depot/Core. The
Pantheras had weapons and systems upgraded and were largely test beds for
the evolution of the full TL15 Tigress. These hybrid Panthera BatRons
remained in service in Lucan's Imperium through the Rebellion.

- BT/R-15 std. 1M dton J3G2 - Cleon-class Tender with 4x Admiral-class
50k dton Riders. Primary capital ship of the Third Imperium through the
Rebellion

- BTL/RL-15 light 400kdt Lurenti-class Tender with 7x Nolikian-class 20k
dton Riders. Fleet doctrine test of light battle-riders and a more cost
effective tender. Mostly seen on the periphery of the Third Imperium as a
cheaper alternative to the BT/R-15.

- BI-15 dread. 700kdt, J4G6. New Sylea-class design as Domain command
ship replacing the Kokirrak for use of highest nobles (Archdukes and/or
Domain Grand Admirals). None in Marches/DoD/Regency. Dulinor's flagship
Clarion is the most famous example in Imperial history

- BL-15 lite. 200kdt, J4G6 Kokirrak-class and refit/upgrade of BL-14
though not widely procured

- BM-15 missile. 200kdt J4G6. TL15 Plankwell-class and main battleship
of TL15 Third Imperium

- BB-15 heavy. 500kdt, J4G6. Tigress-class mature TL15 intended to
replace both Kokirrak and Plankwells. Much more widespread throughout the
Imperium, even making it on the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches, though
never proliferated as widespread as the Plankwell before Rebellion

- BZ-15 proto. 700/850kdt J4G6. Prototype-built to Sylea-class chassis
and carrying 3x 50k dton Admiral battle-riders though the first prototype
also demonstrated BT/R-14 30k dton Gallant's.

I live for stuff like what you did there. Shows you what kind of geek I
am. When I get some time and have more of my stuff out where I can see it,
I'd like to look over it in more detail. Now that you mention it, I think
SSoFI did have a nice kind of historical appendix or something.

The Lurenti-Nolikian is out of oSpinward Campaign, isn't it?

> I actually did find a use for Shattered Ships of the Third Imperium once
> upon a time. While it's designs were worthless for multiple reasons (not
> the least of which was the MT system, but also the pure incoherence of
> many
> of them). I didn't even really like the art... but it's prose on the
> evolution of the capital ships in the 3I still resonates as a silver
> lining
> on an otherwise dark cloud. Combined with CT Supplement 9 and TNE's
> Battle Rider, the rough piece of charcoal is capable of some small amount
> of polish. With the outline of the lineage from Shattered Ships of the
> Imperium, I was able to conjecture some nice ideas (I'm rather fond of the
> Panthera and have ideas for using them coming out of the Black Curtain
> with
> PO'ed Cyber-Centaurs and their Meta-identity Eater Overlords.
>
> Using CT Supplement 9, Supplement 5, MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered
> Imperium, and TNE Battle Rider
> Third Imperium Capital Ships
>
> - BB-11. 300kt, J2G2. Sylean Federation Federation-class Battleship
> from
> Long Night. No intact examples lasted beyond the First Civil War
>
> - BB-12. 300kt, J3G3. Upgrade of BB-11 to Imperium-class and renown as
> "mothership" of Third Imperium in use during reign of Cleon I through
> the
> Pacification Campaigns and until the Vargr Campaigns Many rotated to
> reserve fleets or member worlds and more than a few converted to
> museums or
> monuments to the early wars of the Third Imperium. Cleon's personal
> flagship was kept in vintage condition until it was destroyed in the
> Civil
> War when one of the Barrack's Emperors used it as his flagship and was
> killed in it's destruction.
>
> - BB-13. 300kt, J3G3. Imperator-class early Third Imperium upgrade of
> the BB-12 and main capital ship through Civil War Hybrid
> TL/spinal/weapons
> upgrades of the original Sylean Fed battleship. Very few remaining in
> service as of Rebellion and those almost entirely in Depot reserve
> fleets.
> Most were decomissioned and destroyed in weapons testings though a
> couple
> museum ships were preserved in the Sylean Federation.
>
> - BI-13. 700kt, J4G4. Original Basileus-class designed as supership .
> Intended to replaced BB-13/BB-12 though due to the enormous expense,
> most
> sectors never saw more than one or two BatRons. Served through Third
> Frontier War. Most were upgraded/refitted to BI-14 though a few
> isolated
> examples remain in service toward the Imperial Core, where a few high
> nobles/admirals strut around in these due to high sentimental value.
> They're mostly archaic though still can serve certain roles well enough
> if
> not as comfortably by its crew. None remained Behind the Claw.
>
> - BL-13 lite. 200kt, J3G2. Voroshilief-class. Cost effective
> alternative
> to completely replacing BB-12 with BI-13. Retired by end of Civil War,
> where they did not perform well and were replaced with the BT/R-14
> system.
>
> - BT/R-14 std. 700k/30k J3G2/!JG5 Triumph-class Tender with 6x
> Gallant-class Riders to replace BB-13 in face of design failures of
> Voroshilief. Primary Imperial capital ship of the Solomani Rim War.
> Many
> transferred to Depot reserve fleets until they were called up as the
> BT/R-15 were decimanted in the Rebellion
>
> - BI-14 dread. 700kt, J4G5. Kaiser-class refit/upgrade of BI-13. Most
> BatRon were sent to the Depot mothball fleets, though a few were
> decomissioned to museum ships and/or destroyed in weapons testing. One
> functional ship kept at Depot/Deneb, which was reactivated and used as
> Norris' flagship during Rebellion, cannibilizing the rest of the
> squadron
> for repair parts. Rest of the BatRon restored for service in the
> Quarantine
> during the Regency.
>
> - BL-14 lite. 200kt, J4G5. Original Kokirrak and main battleship of
> late
> TL14 Third Imperium
>
> - BH-14 heavy. 500kt J4G5 - Panthera-class. Similar to later Tigress
> but
> without the fighter complement and a much smaller rear superstructure.
> Not
> as widely procured and more of a doctrine test platform based on
> lessons
> learned from BI-13 and BB-13, though several BatRon were completed and
> kept
> as a reaction force for the Emperor to send from Capital or Depot/Core.
> The
> Pantheras had weapons and systems upgraded and were largely test beds
> for
> the evolution of the full TL15 Tigress. These hybrid Panthera BatRons
> remained in service in Lucan's Imperium through the Rebellion.
>
> - BT/R-15 std. 1M dton J3G2 - Cleon-class Tender with 4x Admiral-class
> 50k dton Riders. Primary capital ship of the Third Imperium through the
> Rebellion
>
> - BTL/RL-15 light 400kdt Lurenti-class Tender with 7x Nolikian-class
> 20k
> dton Riders. Fleet doctrine test of light battle-riders and a more cost
> effective tender. Mostly seen on the periphery of the Third Imperium as
> a
> cheaper alternative to the BT/R-15.
>
> - BI-15 dread. 700kdt, J4G6. New Sylea-class design as Domain command
> ship replacing the Kokirrak for use of highest nobles (Archdukes and/or
> Domain Grand Admirals). None in Marches/DoD/Regency. Dulinor's flagship
> Clarion is the most famous example in Imperial history
>
> - BL-15 lite. 200kdt, J4G6 Kokirrak-class and refit/upgrade of BL-14
> though not widely procured
>
> - BM-15 missile. 200kdt J4G6. TL15 Plankwell-class and main battleship
> of TL15 Third Imperium
>
> - BB-15 heavy. 500kdt, J4G6. Tigress-class mature TL15 intended to
> replace both Kokirrak and Plankwells. Much more widespread throughout
> the
> Imperium, even making it on the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches,
> though
> never proliferated as widespread as the Plankwell before Rebellion
>
> - BZ-15 proto. 700/850kdt J4G6. Prototype-built to Sylea-class chassis
> and carrying 3x 50k dton Admiral battle-riders though the first
> prototype
> also demonstrated BT/R-14 30k dton Gallant's.
>

I also looked at the evolution of the Shattered Designs, but I posited that
they were all third imperium designs. The reason came indirectly from T4s
Coronation class battleships which were only 90,000 dt. These presumably
date from towards the end of the Sylean Federation and its evolution into
the early Third Imperium. They were also TL12 designs. Now I am assuming
that since the Federation was smallers its fleet would have had a more
consistent TL structure (TL12). In later periods the Coronation would
probably have been downgraded to heavy cruisers.

I did convert a number of the ships to TNE as well as other designs from my
Banners Sector game. You can find my interpretations at

http://www.skaran.net/bannerscampaign/equipment/craft/craft.html

Antony

From: []
On Behalf Of Master Uxi
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 12:48 PM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

I actually did find a use for Shattered Ships of the Third Imperium once
upon a time. While it's designs were worthless for multiple reasons (not
the least of which was the MT system, but also the pure incoherence of many
of them). I didn't even really like the art... but it's prose on the
evolution of the capital ships in the 3I still resonates as a silver lining
on an otherwise dark cloud. Combined with CT Supplement 9 and TNE's Battle
Rider, the rough piece of charcoal is capable of some small amount of
polish. With the outline of the lineage from Shattered Ships of the
Imperium, I was able to conjecture some nice ideas (I'm rather fond of the
Panthera and have ideas for using them coming out of the Black Curtain with
PO'ed Cyber-Centaurs and their Meta-identity Eater Overlords.

Using CT Supplement 9, Supplement 5, MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered
Imperium, and TNE Battle Rider

Third Imperium Capital Ships

* BB-11. 300kt, J2G2. Sylean Federation Federation-class Battleship
from Long Night. No intact examples lasted beyond the First Civil War
* BB-12. 300kt, J3G3. Upgrade of BB-11 to Imperium-class and renown as
"mothership" of Third Imperium in use during reign of Cleon I through the
Pacification Campaigns and until the Vargr Campaigns Many rotated to reserve
fleets or member worlds and more than a few converted to museums or
monuments to the early wars of the Third Imperium. Cleon's personal flagship
was kept in vintage condition until it was destroyed in the Civil War when
one of the Barrack's Emperors used it as his flagship and was killed in it's
destruction.
* BB-13. 300kt, J3G3. Imperator-class early Third Imperium upgrade of
the BB-12 and main capital ship through Civil War Hybrid TL/spinal/weapons
upgrades of the original Sylean Fed battleship. Very few remaining in
service as of Rebellion and those almost entirely in Depot reserve fleets.
Most were decomissioned and destroyed in weapons testings though a couple
museum ships were preserved in the Sylean Federation.
* BI-13. 700kt, J4G4. Original Basileus-class designed as supership .
Intended to replaced BB-13/BB-12 though due to the enormous expense, most
sectors never saw more than one or two BatRons. Served through Third
Frontier War. Most were upgraded/refitted to BI-14 though a few isolated
examples remain in service toward the Imperial Core, where a few high
nobles/admirals strut around in these due to high sentimental value. They're
mostly archaic though still can serve certain roles well enough if not as
comfortably by its crew. None remained Behind the Claw.
* BL-13 lite. 200kt, J3G2. Voroshilief-class. Cost effective
alternative to completely replacing BB-12 with BI-13. Retired by end of
Civil War, where they did not perform well and were replaced with the
BT/R-14 system.
* BT/R-14 std. 700k/30k J3G2/!JG5 Triumph-class Tender with 6x
Gallant-class Riders to replace BB-13 in face of design failures of
Voroshilief. Primary Imperial capital ship of the Solomani Rim War. Many
transferred to Depot reserve fleets until they were called up as the BT/R-15
were decimanted in the Rebellion
* BI-14 dread. 700kt, J4G5. Kaiser-class refit/upgrade of BI-13. Most
BatRon were sent to the Depot mothball fleets, though a few were
decomissioned to museum ships and/or destroyed in weapons testing. One
functional ship kept at Depot/Deneb, which was reactivated and used as
Norris' flagship during Rebellion, cannibilizing the rest of the squadron
for repair parts. Rest of the BatRon restored for service in the Quarantine
during the Regency.
* BL-14 lite. 200kt, J4G5. Original Kokirrak and main battleship of
late TL14 Third Imperium
* BH-14 heavy. 500kt J4G5 - Panthera-class. Similar to later Tigress
but without the fighter complement and a much smaller rear superstructure.
Not as widely procured and more of a doctrine test platform based on lessons
learned from BI-13 and BB-13, though several BatRon were completed and kept
as a reaction force for the Emperor to send from Capital or Depot/Core. The
Pantheras had weapons and systems upgraded and were largely test beds for
the evolution of the full TL15 Tigress. These hybrid Panthera BatRons
remained in service in Lucan's Imperium through the Rebellion.
* BT/R-15 std. 1M dton J3G2 - Cleon-class Tender with 4x Admiral-class
50k dton Riders. Primary capital ship of the Third Imperium through the
Rebellion
* BTL/RL-15 light 400kdt Lurenti-class Tender with 7x Nolikian-class
20k dton Riders. Fleet doctrine test of light battle-riders and a more cost
effective tender. Mostly seen on the periphery of the Third Imperium as a
cheaper alternative to the BT/R-15.
* BI-15 dread. 700kdt, J4G6. New Sylea-class design as Domain command
ship replacing the Kokirrak for use of highest nobles (Archdukes and/or
Domain Grand Admirals). None in Marches/DoD/Regency. Dulinor's flagship
Clarion is the most famous example in Imperial history
* BL-15 lite. 200kdt, J4G6 Kokirrak-class and refit/upgrade of BL-14
though not widely procured
* BM-15 missile. 200kdt J4G6. TL15 Plankwell-class and main battleship
of TL15 Third Imperium
* BB-15 heavy. 500kdt, J4G6. Tigress-class mature TL15 intended to
replace both Kokirrak and Plankwells. Much more widespread throughout the
Imperium, even making it on the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches, though
never proliferated as widespread as the Plankwell before Rebellion
* BZ-15 proto. 700/850kdt J4G6. Prototype-built to Sylea-class chassis
and carrying 3x 50k dton Admiral battle-riders though the first prototype
also demonstrated BT/R-14 30k dton Gallant's.

That's a lot of ships. I look forward to looking at those after I get out
from under this proposal.

That's funny, you called the Annic Nova a Training ship, which is exactly
what I called it in my campaign. My PC group found it, ran the adventure,
I think flew it on one adventure, and then handed it over to their
employer who reclassified it as a Training Ship.

> I also looked at the evolution of the Shattered Designs, but I posited
> that
> they were all third imperium designs. The reason came indirectly from T4s
> Coronation class battleships which were only 90,000 dt. These presumably
> date from towards the end of the Sylean Federation and its evolution into
> the early Third Imperium. They were also TL12 designs. Now I am assuming
> that since the Federation was smallers its fleet would have had a more
> consistent TL structure (TL12). In later periods the Coronation would
> probably have been downgraded to heavy cruisers.
>
>
>
> I did convert a number of the ships to TNE as well as other designs from
> my
> Banners Sector game. You can find my interpretations at
>
> http://www.skaran.net/bannerscampaign/equipment/craft/craft.html
>
>
>
> Antony

The 90k dt is also mentioned in the MT Ref's Companion. IMTU, the 90k jobs
were considered a BB in their day (probably more of a BC but that's neither
here nor there) but this perspective would definitely have originated with
hindsight of the late 3I. IMTU/YMMV etc etc. At least that's my retcon
since I really just forgot about it when I compiled this. :D

Glad you like it Dave. Yes, the Lurentian is from SMC. I don't have it
but heard enough about it. Didn't have it in my original draft but was
trying to be complete. Guess I forgot about the MTRC/T4 90k thing, though
and should probably toss the reference to the Lurentian since I was only
really interested in the big BB's and not doing hundreds of entries for
escort and cruiser evolution. ;)

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Antony Farrell <>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I also looked at the evolution of the Shattered Designs, but I posited
> that they were all third imperium designs. The reason came indirectly from
> T4s Coronation class battleships which were only 90,000 dt. These
> presumably date from towards the end of the Sylean Federation and its
> evolution into the early Third Imperium. They were also TL12 designs. Now I
> am assuming that since the Federation was smallers its fleet would have had
> a more consistent TL structure (TL12). In later periods the Coronation
> would probably have been downgraded to heavy cruisers.****
>
> ** **
>
> I did convert a number of the ships to TNE as well as other designs from
> my Banners Sector game. You can find my interpretations at****
>
> http://www.skaran.net/bannerscampaign/equipment/craft/craft.html****
>
> ** **
>
> Antony****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* [
> ] *On Behalf Of *Master Uxi
> *Sent:* Friday, 13 July 2012 12:48 PM
> *To:*
> *Subject:* [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium****
>
> ** **
>
>
>
> I actually did find a use for Shattered Ships of the Third Imperium once
> upon a time. While it's designs were worthless for multiple reasons (not
> the least of which was the MT system, but also the pure incoherence of many
> of them). I didn't even really like the art... but it's prose on the
> evolution of the capital ships in the 3I still resonates as a silver lining
> on an otherwise dark cloud. Combined with CT Supplement 9 and TNE's
> Battle Rider, the rough piece of charcoal is capable of some small amount
> of polish. With the outline of the lineage from Shattered Ships of the
> Imperium, I was able to conjecture some nice ideas (I'm rather fond of the
> Panthera and have ideas for using them coming out of the Black Curtain with
> PO'ed Cyber-Centaurs and their Meta-identity Eater Overlords.****
>
> ** **
>
> Using CT Supplement 9, Supplement 5, MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered
> Imperium, and TNE Battle Rider****
> Third Imperium Capital Ships****
>
> - BB-11. 300kt, J2G2. Sylean Federation Federation-class Battleship
> from Long Night. No intact examples lasted beyond the First Civil War**
> **
> - BB-12. 300kt, J3G3. Upgrade of BB-11 to Imperium-class and renown as
> "mothership" of Third Imperium in use during reign of Cleon I through the
> Pacification Campaigns and until the Vargr Campaigns Many rotated to
> reserve fleets or member worlds and more than a few converted to museums or
> monuments to the early wars of the Third Imperium. Cleon's personal
> flagship was kept in vintage condition until it was destroyed in the Civil
> War when one of the Barrack's Emperors used it as his flagship and was
> killed in it's destruction.****
> - BB-13. 300kt, J3G3. Imperator-class early Third Imperium upgrade of
> the BB-12 and main capital ship through Civil War Hybrid TL/spinal/weapons
> upgrades of the original Sylean Fed battleship. Very few remaining in
> service as of Rebellion and those almost entirely in Depot reserve fleets.
> Most were decomissioned and destroyed in weapons testings though a couple
> museum ships were preserved in the Sylean Federation.****
> - BI-13. 700kt, J4G4. Original Basileus-class designed as supership .
> Intended to replaced BB-13/BB-12 though due to the enormous expense, most
> sectors never saw more than one or two BatRons. Served through Third
> Frontier War. Most were upgraded/refitted to BI-14 though a few isolated
> examples remain in service toward the Imperial Core, where a few high
> nobles/admirals strut around in these due to high sentimental value.
> They're mostly archaic though still can serve certain roles well enough if
> not as comfortably by its crew. None remained Behind the Claw.****
> - BL-13 lite. 200kt, J3G2. Voroshilief-class. Cost effective
> alternative to completely replacing BB-12 with BI-13. Retired by end of
> Civil War, where they did not perform well and were replaced with the
> BT/R-14 system.****
> - BT/R-14 std. 700k/30k J3G2/!JG5 Triumph-class Tender with 6x
> Gallant-class Riders to replace BB-13 in face of design failures of
> Voroshilief. Primary Imperial capital ship of the Solomani Rim War. Many
> transferred to Depot reserve fleets until they were called up as the
> BT/R-15 were decimanted in the Rebellion****
> - BI-14 dread. 700kt, J4G5. Kaiser-class refit/upgrade of BI-13. Most
> BatRon were sent to the Depot mothball fleets, though a few were
> decomissioned to museum ships and/or destroyed in weapons testing. One
> functional ship kept at Depot/Deneb, which was reactivated and used as
> Norris' flagship during Rebellion, cannibilizing the rest of the squadron
> for repair parts. Rest of the BatRon restored for service in the Quarantine
> during the Regency.****
> - BL-14 lite. 200kt, J4G5. Original Kokirrak and main battleship of
> late TL14 Third Imperium****
> - BH-14 heavy. 500kt J4G5 - Panthera-class. Similar to later Tigress
> but without the fighter complement and a much smaller rear superstructure.
> Not as widely procured and more of a doctrine test platform based on
> lessons learned from BI-13 and BB-13, though several BatRon were completed
> and kept as a reaction force for the Emperor to send from Capital or
> Depot/Core. The Pantheras had weapons and systems upgraded and were largely
> test beds for the evolution of the full TL15 Tigress. These hybrid Panthera
> BatRons remained in service in Lucan's Imperium through the Rebellion.*
> ***
> - BT/R-15 std. 1M dton J3G2 - Cleon-class Tender with 4x Admiral-class
> 50k dton Riders. Primary capital ship of the Third Imperium through the
> Rebellion****
> - BTL/RL-15 light 400kdt Lurenti-class Tender with 7x Nolikian-class
> 20k dton Riders. Fleet doctrine test of light battle-riders and a more cost
> effective tender. Mostly seen on the periphery of the Third Imperium as a
> cheaper alternative to the BT/R-15.****
> - BI-15 dread. 700kdt, J4G6. New Sylea-class design as Domain command
> ship replacing the Kokirrak for use of highest nobles (Archdukes and/or
> Domain Grand Admirals). None in Marches/DoD/Regency. Dulinor's flagship
> Clarion is the most famous example in Imperial history****
> - BL-15 lite. 200kdt, J4G6 Kokirrak-class and refit/upgrade of BL-14
> though not widely procured****
> - BM-15 missile. 200kdt J4G6. TL15 Plankwell-class and main battleship
> of TL15 Third Imperium****
> - BB-15 heavy. 500kdt, J4G6. Tigress-class mature TL15 intended to
> replace both Kokirrak and Plankwells. Much more widespread throughout the
> Imperium, even making it on the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches, though
> never proliferated as widespread as the Plankwell before Rebellion****
> - BZ-15 proto. 700/850kdt J4G6. Prototype-built to Sylea-class chassis
> and carrying 3x 50k dton Admiral battle-riders though the first prototype
> also demonstrated BT/R-14 30k dton Gallant's.****
>
>
>
> ****
>
>
>

If you need any data out of SMC, let me know, as it's one of the things
I've dug out. The BatRon comes with some escorts as well, but I assume
they jump separately, and there are fighters carried on the Carrier.

I have always retained the original definition of BC: gunned like a BB but
longer legs, lighter armor, and bigger. So a great big, fat, expensive
liability like Jacky Fisher's originals, but oh, so romantic and oh, such
great flagships in peacetime. Much more interesting that way. Large
cruisers are just large cruisers.

> The 90k dt is also mentioned in the MT Ref's Companion. IMTU, the 90k jobs
> were considered a BB in their day (probably more of a BC but that's
> neither
> here nor there) but this perspective would definitely have originated with
> hindsight of the late 3I. IMTU/YMMV etc etc. At least that's my retcon
> since I really just forgot about it when I compiled this. :D
>
> Glad you like it Dave. Yes, the Lurentian is from SMC. I don't have it
> but heard enough about it. Didn't have it in my original draft but was
> trying to be complete. Guess I forgot about the MTRC/T4 90k thing, though
> and should probably toss the reference to the Lurentian since I was only
> really interested in the big BB's and not doing hundreds of entries for
> escort and cruiser evolution. ;)
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Antony Farrell
> <>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> I also looked at the evolution of the Shattered Designs, but I posited
>> that they were all third imperium designs. The reason came indirectly
>> from
>> T4s Coronation class battleships which were only 90,000 dt. These
>> presumably date from towards the end of the Sylean Federation and its
>> evolution into the early Third Imperium. They were also TL12 designs.
>> Now I
>> am assuming that since the Federation was smallers its fleet would have
>> had
>> a more consistent TL structure (TL12). In later periods the Coronation
>> would probably have been downgraded to heavy cruisers.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I did convert a number of the ships to TNE as well as other designs from
>> my Banners Sector game. You can find my interpretations at****
>>
>> http://www.skaran.net/bannerscampaign/equipment/craft/craft.html****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Antony****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* [
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Master Uxi
>> *Sent:* Friday, 13 July 2012 12:48 PM
>> *To:*
>> *Subject:* [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third
>> Imperium****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>>
>> I actually did find a use for Shattered Ships of the Third Imperium once
>> upon a time. While it's designs were worthless for multiple reasons
>> (not
>> the least of which was the MT system, but also the pure incoherence of
>> many
>> of them). I didn't even really like the art... but it's prose on the
>> evolution of the capital ships in the 3I still resonates as a silver
>> lining
>> on an otherwise dark cloud. Combined with CT Supplement 9 and TNE's
>> Battle Rider, the rough piece of charcoal is capable of some small
>> amount
>> of polish. With the outline of the lineage from Shattered Ships of the
>> Imperium, I was able to conjecture some nice ideas (I'm rather fond of
>> the
>> Panthera and have ideas for using them coming out of the Black Curtain
>> with
>> PO'ed Cyber-Centaurs and their Meta-identity Eater Overlords.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Using CT Supplement 9, Supplement 5, MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered
>> Imperium, and TNE Battle Rider****
>> Third Imperium Capital Ships****
>>
>> - BB-11. 300kt, J2G2. Sylean Federation Federation-class Battleship
>> from Long Night. No intact examples lasted beyond the First Civil
>> War**
>> **
>> - BB-12. 300kt, J3G3. Upgrade of BB-11 to Imperium-class and renown
>> as
>> "mothership" of Third Imperium in use during reign of Cleon I through
>> the
>> Pacification Campaigns and until the Vargr Campaigns Many rotated to
>> reserve fleets or member worlds and more than a few converted to
>> museums or
>> monuments to the early wars of the Third Imperium. Cleon's personal
>> flagship was kept in vintage condition until it was destroyed in the
>> Civil
>> War when one of the Barrack's Emperors used it as his flagship and
>> was
>> killed in it's destruction.****
>> - BB-13. 300kt, J3G3. Imperator-class early Third Imperium upgrade of
>> the BB-12 and main capital ship through Civil War Hybrid
>> TL/spinal/weapons
>> upgrades of the original Sylean Fed battleship. Very few remaining in
>> service as of Rebellion and those almost entirely in Depot reserve
>> fleets.
>> Most were decomissioned and destroyed in weapons testings though a
>> couple
>> museum ships were preserved in the Sylean Federation.****
>> - BI-13. 700kt, J4G4. Original Basileus-class designed as supership .
>> Intended to replaced BB-13/BB-12 though due to the enormous expense,
>> most
>> sectors never saw more than one or two BatRons. Served through Third
>> Frontier War. Most were upgraded/refitted to BI-14 though a few
>> isolated
>> examples remain in service toward the Imperial Core, where a few high
>> nobles/admirals strut around in these due to high sentimental value.
>> They're mostly archaic though still can serve certain roles well
>> enough if
>> not as comfortably by its crew. None remained Behind the Claw.****
>> - BL-13 lite. 200kt, J3G2. Voroshilief-class. Cost effective
>> alternative to completely replacing BB-12 with BI-13. Retired by end
>> of
>> Civil War, where they did not perform well and were replaced with the
>> BT/R-14 system.****
>> - BT/R-14 std. 700k/30k J3G2/!JG5 Triumph-class Tender with 6x
>> Gallant-class Riders to replace BB-13 in face of design failures of
>> Voroshilief. Primary Imperial capital ship of the Solomani Rim War.
>> Many
>> transferred to Depot reserve fleets until they were called up as the
>> BT/R-15 were decimanted in the Rebellion****
>> - BI-14 dread. 700kt, J4G5. Kaiser-class refit/upgrade of BI-13. Most
>> BatRon were sent to the Depot mothball fleets, though a few were
>> decomissioned to museum ships and/or destroyed in weapons testing.
>> One
>> functional ship kept at Depot/Deneb, which was reactivated and used
>> as
>> Norris' flagship during Rebellion, cannibilizing the rest of the
>> squadron
>> for repair parts. Rest of the BatRon restored for service in the
>> Quarantine
>> during the Regency.****
>> - BL-14 lite. 200kt, J4G5. Original Kokirrak and main battleship of
>> late TL14 Third Imperium****
>> - BH-14 heavy. 500kt J4G5 - Panthera-class. Similar to later Tigress
>> but without the fighter complement and a much smaller rear
>> superstructure.
>> Not as widely procured and more of a doctrine test platform based on
>> lessons learned from BI-13 and BB-13, though several BatRon were
>> completed
>> and kept as a reaction force for the Emperor to send from Capital or
>> Depot/Core. The Pantheras had weapons and systems upgraded and were
>> largely
>> test beds for the evolution of the full TL15 Tigress. These hybrid
>> Panthera
>> BatRons remained in service in Lucan's Imperium through the
>> Rebellion.*
>> ***
>> - BT/R-15 std. 1M dton J3G2 - Cleon-class Tender with 4x
>> Admiral-class
>> 50k dton Riders. Primary capital ship of the Third Imperium through
>> the
>> Rebellion****
>> - BTL/RL-15 light 400kdt Lurenti-class Tender with 7x Nolikian-class
>> 20k dton Riders. Fleet doctrine test of light battle-riders and a
>> more cost
>> effective tender. Mostly seen on the periphery of the Third Imperium
>> as a
>> cheaper alternative to the BT/R-15.****
>> - BI-15 dread. 700kdt, J4G6. New Sylea-class design as Domain command
>> ship replacing the Kokirrak for use of highest nobles (Archdukes
>> and/or
>> Domain Grand Admirals). None in Marches/DoD/Regency. Dulinor's
>> flagship
>> Clarion is the most famous example in Imperial history****
>> - BL-15 lite. 200kdt, J4G6 Kokirrak-class and refit/upgrade of BL-14
>> though not widely procured****
>> - BM-15 missile. 200kdt J4G6. TL15 Plankwell-class and main
>> battleship
>> of TL15 Third Imperium****
>> - BB-15 heavy. 500kdt, J4G6. Tigress-class mature TL15 intended to
>> replace both Kokirrak and Plankwells. Much more widespread throughout
>> the
>> Imperium, even making it on the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches,
>> though
>> never proliferated as widespread as the Plankwell before
>> Rebellion****
>> - BZ-15 proto. 700/850kdt J4G6. Prototype-built to Sylea-class
>> chassis
>> and carrying 3x 50k dton Admiral battle-riders though the first
>> prototype
>> also demonstrated BT/R-14 30k dton Gallant's.****
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>>
>>
>

I suspect there are versions of the Annic Nova all over the place! It was
such an interesting design with just the sort of thing required for a
training vessel.

Antony

Mind you, given their expected opponents the Coronation would likely have
been big enough for the job at the time. Given the premise behind the T4
background how many of the renegade families were able to flee Sylea with a
squadron of battleships? It would not have been until later that they
started coming up against opponents with ships that would need the power of
a full sized battleship to deal with.

In that regard perhaps the Coronations could be regarded as battleships in
the same way that the WW2 Graf Spee class were called pocket battleships by
those who would have to face them. (I believe the German term for them was
something like large armoured ship or cruiser). Based on T4 stats they have
the same maneuver rating as many of the battleships but are slower than the
cruisers.

I personally would use them as pocket battleships, they can stand in the
line of battle for awhile but would mostly be used against more ill-equipped
opponents.

I wonder if they were called battleships because they had a spinal meson
gun, cruisers seemed to have spinal PAs in general? I'll have to have a go
at redoing the T4 Coronation to a TNE version (should be easier than
converting a MT or CT ship to TNE)

A bit of a ramble here.

Antony

From: []
On Behalf Of Master Uxi
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

The 90k dt is also mentioned in the MT Ref's Companion. IMTU, the 90k jobs
were considered a BB in their day (probably more of a BC but that's neither
here nor there) but this perspective would definitely have originated with
hindsight of the late 3I. IMTU/YMMV etc etc. At least that's my retcon
since I really just forgot about it when I compiled this. :D

Glad you like it Dave. Yes, the Lurentian is from SMC. I don't have it but
heard enough about it. Didn't have it in my original draft but was trying
to be complete. Guess I forgot about the MTRC/T4 90k thing, though and
should probably toss the reference to the Lurentian since I was only really
interested in the big BB's and not doing hundreds of entries for escort and
cruiser evolution. ;)

Plus with that big solar sail/jump drive it had, it just felt like an old
sail training ship.

Now THERE'S something we forgot to put into FF&S, the solar sail/jump
drive. I don't think it's ever gotten into any other version of Traveller
either.

> I suspect there are versions of the Annic Nova all over the place! It was
> such an interesting design with just the sort of thing required for a
> training vessel.
>
> Antony
>
>
>

> In that regard perhaps the Coronations could be regarded as battleships in
> the same way that the WW2 Graf Spee class were called pocket battleships
> by
> those who would have to face them. (I believe the German term for them was
> something like large armoured ship or cruiser).

When they first built them, they were called "Panzerschiff" = "armored
ship." Kind of a vague term.

Later on they called them cruisers.

Then we also get this problem with the 75,000dt TL14 Regal class BC (one of
which is incidentally the Alston Highport in my Banners game) its
displacement puts it into the Coronation range though from a later period.

We know the Traveller Universe had a small ship period and a large ship
period, was their consideration of a middle sized ship period?

In a large ship universe the Regal becomes a reasonable sized cruiser -
perhaps a large light cruiser, calling anything a battlecruiser invites the
risk of the ship being used as a battleship (just like the BCs in WW1)

I too have always pictured BCsas having roughly the same volume as a BB but
trading armour for maneuver drive.

Antony

Just dug out my copy of T4s Imperial Squadrons. It describes the Coronation
as "the ultimate expression of Imperial Power in the new era..."

It also says the design is an update of an earlier Sylean design (TL11
perhaps?)

This does sort of imply that the Coronation was the premier battleship at
the end of the Sylean Federation, start of the 3rd Imperium.

I don't have it here but in CTs Library data wasn't the Sylea class BB given
a displacement of 100,000 dt?

Antony

Has anyone gone through an analysis for just how many batrons,croutons, etc were present in 3I?

Just curious for how big a standing and reserve navy an 11,000 system empire could support?

Cheers,
Quigg

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2012, at 0:48, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> I actually did find a use for Shattered Ships of the Third Imperium once upon a time. While it's designs were worthless for multiple reasons (not the least of which was the MT system, but also the pure incoherence of many of them). I didn't even really like the art... but it's prose on the evolution of the capital ships in the 3I still resonates as a silver lining on an otherwise dark cloud. Combined with CT Supplement 9 and TNE's Battle Rider, the rough piece of charcoal is capable of some small amount of polish. With the outline of the lineage from Shattered Ships of the Imperium, I was able to conjecture some nice ideas (I'm rather fond of the Panthera and have ideas for using them coming out of the Black Curtain with PO'ed Cyber-Centaurs and their Meta-identity Eater Overlords.
>
>
> Using CT Supplement 9, Supplement 5, MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium, and TNE Battle Rider
>
> Third Imperium Capital Ships
>
> BB-11. 300kt, J2G2. Sylean Federation Federation-class Battleship from Long Night. No intact examples lasted beyond the First Civil War
> BB-12. 300kt, J3G3. Upgrade of BB-11 to Imperium-class and renown as "mothership" of Third Imperium in use during reign of Cleon I through the Pacification Campaigns and until the Vargr Campaigns Many rotated to reserve fleets or member worlds and more than a few converted to museums or monuments to the early wars of the Third Imperium. Cleon's personal flagship was kept in vintage condition until it was destroyed in the Civil War when one of the Barrack's Emperors used it as his flagship and was killed in it's destruction.
> BB-13. 300kt, J3G3. Imperator-class early Third Imperium upgrade of the BB-12 and main capital ship through Civil War Hybrid TL/spinal/weapons upgrades of the original Sylean Fed battleship. Very few remaining in service as of Rebellion and those almost entirely in Depot reserve fleets. Most were decomissioned and destroyed in weapons testings though a couple museum ships were preserved in the Sylean Federation.
> BI-13. 700kt, J4G4. Original Basileus-class designed as supership . Intended to replaced BB-13/BB-12 though due to the enormous expense, most sectors never saw more than one or two BatRons. Served through Third Frontier War. Most were upgraded/refitted to BI-14 though a few isolated examples remain in service toward the Imperial Core, where a few high nobles/admirals strut around in these due to high sentimental value. They're mostly archaic though still can serve certain roles well enough if not as comfortably by its crew. None remained Behind the Claw.
> BL-13 lite. 200kt, J3G2. Voroshilief-class. Cost effective alternative to completely replacing BB-12 with BI-13. Retired by end of Civil War, where they did not perform well and were replaced with the BT/R-14 system.
> BT/R-14 std. 700k/30k J3G2/!JG5 Triumph-class Tender with 6x Gallant-class Riders to replace BB-13 in face of design failures of Voroshilief. Primary Imperial capital ship of the Solomani Rim War. Many transferred to Depot reserve fleets until they were called up as the BT/R-15 were decimanted in the Rebellion
> BI-14 dread. 700kt, J4G5. Kaiser-class refit/upgrade of BI-13. Most BatRon were sent to the Depot mothball fleets, though a few were decomissioned to museum ships and/or destroyed in weapons testing. One functional ship kept at Depot/Deneb, which was reactivated and used as Norris' flagship during Rebellion, cannibilizing the rest of the squadron for repair parts. Rest of the BatRon restored for service in the Quarantine during the Regency.
> BL-14 lite. 200kt, J4G5. Original Kokirrak and main battleship of late TL14 Third Imperium
> BH-14 heavy. 500kt J4G5 - Panthera-class. Similar to later Tigress but without the fighter complement and a much smaller rear superstructure. Not as widely procured and more of a doctrine test platform based on lessons learned from BI-13 and BB-13, though several BatRon were completed and kept as a reaction force for the Emperor to send from Capital or Depot/Core. The Pantheras had weapons and systems upgraded and were largely test beds for the evolution of the full TL15 Tigress. These hybrid Panthera BatRons remained in service in Lucan's Imperium through the Rebellion.
> BT/R-15 std. 1M dton J3G2 - Cleon-class Tender with 4x Admiral-class 50k dton Riders. Primary capital ship of the Third Imperium through the Rebellion
> BTL/RL-15 light 400kdt Lurenti-class Tender with 7x Nolikian-class 20k dton Riders. Fleet doctrine test of light battle-riders and a more cost effective tender. Mostly seen on the periphery of the Third Imperium as a cheaper alternative to the BT/R-15.
> BI-15 dread. 700kdt, J4G6. New Sylea-class design as Domain command ship replacing the Kokirrak for use of highest nobles (Archdukes and/or Domain Grand Admirals). None in Marches/DoD/Regency. Dulinor's flagship Clarion is the most famous example in Imperial history
> BL-15 lite. 200kdt, J4G6 Kokirrak-class and refit/upgrade of BL-14 though not widely procured
> BM-15 missile. 200kdt J4G6. TL15 Plankwell-class and main battleship of TL15 Third Imperium
> BB-15 heavy. 500kdt, J4G6. Tigress-class mature TL15 intended to replace both Kokirrak and Plankwells. Much more widespread throughout the Imperium, even making it on the Solomani Rim and Spinward Marches, though never proliferated as widespread as the Plankwell before Rebellion
> BZ-15 proto. 700/850kdt J4G6. Prototype-built to Sylea-class chassis and carrying 3x 50k dton Admiral battle-riders though the first prototype also demonstrated BT/R-14 30k dton Gallant's.
>

Antony--

I really love what you've done, separating the Jaquays drawing from their
original paint spatter backgrounds, putting them on new ones, and
colorizing them. It really gives them new life.

Dave

> I also looked at the evolution of the Shattered Designs, but I posited
> that
> they were all third imperium designs. The reason came indirectly from T4s
> Coronation class battleships which were only 90,000 dt. These presumably
> date from towards the end of the Sylean Federation and its evolution into
> the early Third Imperium. They were also TL12 designs. Now I am assuming
> that since the Federation was smallers its fleet would have had a more
> consistent TL structure (TL12). In later periods the Coronation would
> probably have been downgraded to heavy cruisers.
>
>
>
> I did convert a number of the ships to TNE as well as other designs from
> my
> Banners Sector game. You can find my interpretations at
>
> http://www.skaran.net/bannerscampaign/equipment/craft/craft.html
>
>
>
> Antony

Antony--

When I was in college I would sit in my dorm room and design High Guard
(2d Ed) starships late into the night and filled a three-inch binder with
hand-written ships.

The way I did my BBs and BCs was pretty straightforward.

1. Followed Jacky Fisher's original pattern: for each generation of BBs
there was an "equivalent" generation of BCs with the "same caliber" of
main armament, but with different drives.

2. High Guard designs were purely algebraic: you had your fixed systems,
then you just divided by the factor for the percentage-based systems to
get total displacement.

My battle fleet had a uniform jump 4, M6 requirement, so all of the BBs
were J4. The BCs were part of a notional deep projection force with a
uniform jump 5, M6 requirement. (Yeah, it might not make sense, but it's a
game, man.)

So if the BB design of that generation was 500K, the BC version was around
700K or more. I liked it because it gave results comparable to
Dreadnought:Invincible, Orion:Lion, Queen Elizabeth:Hood, and gave great
big ships with really thin skin and not a lot of weapons. So lots of
tragic tales waiting to be told.

I reasoned that a lot of the BCs would end up being used as fleet tankers,
pretty much without conversion, because who would say no to an extra meson
gun?

> Then we also get this problem with the 75,000dt TL14 Regal class BC (one
> of
> which is incidentally the Alston Highport in my Banners game) its
> displacement puts it into the Coronation range though from a later period.
>
> We know the Traveller Universe had a small ship period and a large ship
> period, was their consideration of a middle sized ship period?
>
> In a large ship universe the Regal becomes a reasonable sized cruiser -
> perhaps a large light cruiser, calling anything a battlecruiser invites
> the
> risk of the ship being used as a battleship (just like the BCs in WW1)
>
> I too have always pictured BCsas having roughly the same volume as a BB
> but
> trading armour for maneuver drive.
>
> Antony
>
>

New era? T4 used the phrase "new era?" No flipping wonder it failed, then.

> Just dug out my copy of T4s Imperial Squadrons. It describes the
> Coronation
> as "the ultimate expression of Imperial Power in the new era..."
>
> It also says the design is an update of an earlier Sylean design (TL11
> perhaps?)
>
> This does sort of imply that the Coronation was the premier battleship at
> the end of the Sylean Federation, start of the 3rd Imperium.
>
> I don't have it here but in CTs Library data wasn't the Sylea class BB
> given
> a displacement of 100,000 dt?
>
> Antony
>
>

Thanks for your comments Dave, hopefully I have all of the original
illustrations properly attributed.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

Antony--

I really love what you've done, separating the Jaquays drawing from their
original paint spatter backgrounds, putting them on new ones, and colorizing
them. It really gives them new life.

Dave

Several answers to that question.

1. None published on a large scale by my time there.
2. The way you would work it out is pull down all of the pop, tech, and
starport levels from all of the UWPs and run it through one of Frank's
mathemagickal military size formulae, and that would give you total
displacement tons.
3. I scaled my assumptions from Fifth Frontier War.
4. MJG put out a MgT book, "Sector Fleet" which details the composition of
the Spinward Marches fleets. I'm not sure what he came up with, how he
derived it, or whatever, but if it is of the same order of magnitude as
5FW, I would go with it.

Dave

> Has anyone gone through an analysis for just how many batrons,croutons,
> etc were present in 3I?
>
> Just curious for how big a standing and reserve navy an 11,000 system
> empire could support?
>
> Cheers,
> Quigg
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

It looks like you probably haven't designed all of the Book 9 starships,
as I haven't found all the pictures yet.

You got the Ghalalk which is one of my favorite illos, and looking great
in color.

I still think there's another Book 9/SSotFI picture I love, which I
haven't seen yet.

You credited "Valor" just to GDW, which I assume means you couldn't find
the author's name. But since the illo link is broken, I can't see the
picture to help you. I'm surprised you didn't get a Victrix picture in
there. I would love to see one of those colorized the way you did the
others.

> Thanks for your comments Dave, hopefully I have all of the original
> illustrations properly attributed.
>
> Antony
>
> -----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium
>
> Antony--
>
> I really love what you've done, separating the Jaquays drawing from their
> original paint spatter backgrounds, putting them on new ones, and
> colorizing
> them. It really gives them new life.
>
> Dave
>
>
>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Antony Farrell <>wrote:

>
>
> too have always pictured BCsas having roughly the same volume as a BB but
> trading armour for maneuver drive.
>
>
>

I'm almost certainly going to appropriate the names you use for the
Solomani ships in particular, as Confederation designs and probably the
general specs (displacement tonnage, etc). I don't think it's really
viable for ships like the dreadnoughts to have such low acceleration which
would be a huge combat liability. I'd rather sacrifice armor and screens
or even bring down the spinal a bit since maneuver drive is one of the most
important stats and arguably more valuable than screens. Usually the first
victim is the Jump Drive, though.

Is that why you did the Tigress as 3G?

probably just difference base conceptions IYTU than mine. Would love to
get BR digitized (ideally in 3 dimensions) so we could do Top Laser.

Hi Dave,
No I havn't done all the book 9 designs yet. But I will eventually get round
to them. I'm looking athaving another go at the Tigress to see if I can
actually get an EM Mask on to it. I think some of the details I can get by
reverse engineering the counters in Battlerider.

As for the valour in theory I have restored the link to the illustration of
the Valour so it should show up now.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 10:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

It looks like you probably haven't designed all of the Book 9 starships, as
I haven't found all the pictures yet.

You got the Ghalalk which is one of my favorite illos, and looking great in
color.

I still think there's another Book 9/SSotFI picture I love, which I haven't
seen yet.

You credited "Valor" just to GDW, which I assume means you couldn't find the
author's name. But since the illo link is broken, I can't see the picture to
help you. I'm surprised you didn't get a Victrix picture in there. I would
love to see one of those colorized the way you did the others.

Interesting to make the BC's bigger. I would have taken them as comparable
size or slightly smaller perhaps. The Traveller analogy to armor is
screens as much, if not more than hull plating since conventional 3I BatRon
would annihilate with meson weapons from 10 hexes away most of the time.
Armor would probably a concern for if they want to go eyeball to eyeball
than do a gunnery duel. The only way to really "sneak in" is to use black
globes, which would probably be more of a submarine analogy. To avoid
getting victimized capital ships would probably have screens up nearly all
the time except when in the drydock equivalent, where they'd be protected
by the base's planetary scale screens and probably relatively impervious to
that except the biggest of dreadnoughts.

Definitely agree that the BC's "legs" are best expressed as Jump Rating
than Maneuver, which needs to be high to be viable in BR combat (and to
match the specs in Sup 9, unless we're taking it as 3I propaganda rather
than objective truth, perhaps). If it's the latter, I generally go:

BI Dread: . Biggest, baddest, meanest, and most expensive. highest G,
probably lower than fleet standard jump. Big screens and big armor more
than point defense. Not much in the way of auxiliary craft.
BB: highest G, fleet standard jump. Screens, armor, PD lasers balanced.
Sacrifices would be on secondary weaponry since the spinal is the main
threat.
BC: high G, higher than fleet standard jump.

The Coronations still work as contemporary BB at TL11 when the 300k BB-11
from FSOSI is a BI of the day. They probably didn't have a dreadnought
classification at the time BB-11 would have came out. It's like if you're
in 1905 and have the Dreadnought, Satsuma, and Michigans as the standard
and then there are much bigger designs a couple decades later. To the
general public, Yamato and Iowa are still battleships while the naval
enthusiast is obviously going to know the classification has evolved and
the old ships get "demoted."

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 7:30 AM, <> wrote:

>
>
> Antony--
>
> When I was in college I would sit in my dorm room and design High Guard
> (2d Ed) starships late into the night and filled a three-inch binder with
> hand-written ships.
>
> The way I did my BBs and BCs was pretty straightforward.
>
> 1. Followed Jacky Fisher's original pattern: for each generation of BBs
> there was an "equivalent" generation of BCs with the "same caliber" of
> main armament, but with different drives.
>
> 2. High Guard designs were purely algebraic: you had your fixed systems,
> then you just divided by the factor for the percentage-based systems to
> get total displacement.
>
> My battle fleet had a uniform jump 4, M6 requirement, so all of the BBs
> were J4. The BCs were part of a notional deep projection force with a
> uniform jump 5, M6 requirement. (Yeah, it might not make sense, but it's a
> game, man.)
>
> So if the BB design of that generation was 500K, the BC version was around
> 700K or more. I liked it because it gave results comparable to
> Dreadnought:Invincible, Orion:Lion, Queen Elizabeth:Hood, and gave great
> big ships with really thin skin and not a lot of weapons. So lots of
> tragic tales waiting to be told.
>
> I reasoned that a lot of the BCs would end up being used as fleet tankers,
> pretty much without conversion, because who would say no to an extra meson
> gun?
>
>
> > Then we also get this problem with the 75,000dt TL14 Regal class BC (one
> > of
> > which is incidentally the Alston Highport in my Banners game) its
> > displacement puts it into the Coronation range though from a later
> period.
> >
> > We know the Traveller Universe had a small ship period and a large ship
> > period, was their consideration of a middle sized ship period?
> >
> > In a large ship universe the Regal becomes a reasonable sized cruiser -
> > perhaps a large light cruiser, calling anything a battlecruiser invites
> > the
> > risk of the ship being used as a battleship (just like the BCs in WW1)
> >
> > I too have always pictured BCsas having roughly the same volume as a BB
> > but
> > trading armour for maneuver drive.
> >
> > Antony
> >
> >
>
>
>

Forgot to say: G-turns.

BI/BB wouldn't want to expose themselves to insufficient G-turns but
probably not long duration, so relatively low fuel power plants. I'd guess
1-2 months max.
I could see BC's having lots of G-turns to spare, maybe best expressed by
an extra J1 or so of fuel tankage.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> Interesting to make the BC's bigger. I would have taken them as
> comparable size or slightly smaller perhaps. The Traveller analogy to
> armor is screens as much, if not more than hull plating since conventional
> 3I BatRon would annihilate with meson weapons from 10 hexes away most of
> the time. Armor would probably a concern for if they want to go eyeball to
> eyeball than do a gunnery duel. The only way to really "sneak in" is to
> use black globes, which would probably be more of a submarine analogy. To
> avoid getting victimized capital ships would probably have screens up
> nearly all the time except when in the drydock equivalent, where they'd be
> protected by the base's planetary scale screens and probably relatively
> impervious to that except the biggest of dreadnoughts.
>
> Definitely agree that the BC's "legs" are best expressed as Jump Rating
> than Maneuver, which needs to be high to be viable in BR combat (and to
> match the specs in Sup 9, unless we're taking it as 3I propaganda rather
> than objective truth, perhaps). If it's the latter, I generally go:
>
> BI Dread: . Biggest, baddest, meanest, and most expensive. highest G,
> probably lower than fleet standard jump. Big screens and big armor more
> than point defense. Not much in the way of auxiliary craft.
> BB: highest G, fleet standard jump. Screens, armor, PD lasers balanced.
> Sacrifices would be on secondary weaponry since the spinal is the main
> threat.
>

Yes the reason for 3G in my iteration of the Tigress was to fit as much in
as possible though as mentioned I may have another go at this. The problem
is you cannot really change the jump drive rating without doing damage to
the way these squadrons worked in FFW. My thought was it was preferable to
keep the strategic range even if it meant dropping the maneuver drives. This
is also why I listed designs as hybrid configurations - a sphere/slab in the
case of the Tigress SL. This was one way to increase surface area,
spherical battleships have a real problem with this. I'll also have a go at
the Voroshilef ignoring perhaps the ones with experimental TL16
Disintegrators.

As for maneuver drives it reminded me of WW1 British and German ships, in
general British BBs and BCs had bigger guns and were faster than their
German counterparts but also carried less armour. So yes a different design
philosophy.

Antony

From: []
On Behalf Of Master Uxi
Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2012 12:19 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Antony Farrell <>
wrote:

too have always pictured BCsas having roughly the same volume as a BB but
trading armour for maneuver drive.

I'm almost certainly going to appropriate the names you use for the Solomani
ships in particular, as Confederation designs and probably the general specs
(displacement tonnage, etc). I don't think it's really viable for ships
like the dreadnoughts to have such low acceleration which would be a huge
combat liability. I'd rather sacrifice armor and screens or even bring down
the spinal a bit since maneuver drive is one of the most important stats and
arguably more valuable than screens. Usually the first victim is the Jump
Drive, though.

Is that why you did the Tigress as 3G?

probably just difference base conceptions IYTU than mine. Would love to get
BR digitized (ideally in 3 dimensions) so we could do Top Laser.

Exactly the sort of analysis I was looking for. Wanted to collapse it and see what resources Virus or PE's could draw from.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2012, at 17:20, "Jake" <> wrote:

> Chris Thrash did this:
>
> http://www.prismnet.com/~thrash/milforce.html
>
> --- In , dcndcn13@... wrote:
> >
> > Several answers to that question.
> >
> > 1. None published on a large scale by my time there.
> > 2. The way you would work it out is pull down all of the pop, tech, and
> > starport levels from all of the UWPs and run it through one of Frank's
> > mathemagickal military size formulae, and that would give you total
> > displacement tons.
> > 3. I scaled my assumptions from Fifth Frontier War.
> > 4. MJG put out a MgT book, "Sector Fleet" which details the composition of
> > the Spinward Marches fleets. I'm not sure what he came up with, how he
> > derived it, or whatever, but if it is of the same order of magnitude as
> > 5FW, I would go with it.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > Has anyone gone through an analysis for just how many batrons,croutons,
> > > etc were present in 3I?
> > >
> > > Just curious for how big a standing and reserve navy an 11,000 system
> > > empire could support?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Quigg
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> >
>
>

We could definitely draw an upper and lower limit to the number of Vampires
hanging around Cymbeline. Probably extrapolate some numbers in the Regency
and Black Curtain, as well.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Scott Quigg <> wrote:

>
> Exactly the sort of analysis I was looking for. Wanted to collapse it
> and see what resources Virus or PE's could draw from.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 13, 2012, at 17:20, "Jake" <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Chris Thrash did this:
>
> http://www.prismnet.com/~thrash/milforce.html
>
> --- In , dcndcn13@... wrote:
> >
> > Several answers to that question.
> >
> > 1. None published on a large scale by my time there.
> > 2. The way you would work it out is pull down all of the pop, tech, and
> > starport levels from all of the UWPs and run it through one of Frank's
> > mathemagickal military size formulae, and that would give you total
> > displacement tons.
> > 3. I scaled my assumptions from Fifth Frontier War.
> > 4. MJG put out a MgT book, "Sector Fleet" which details the composition
> of
> > the Spinward Marches fleets. I'm not sure what he came up with, how he
> > derived it, or whatever, but if it is of the same order of magnitude as
> > 5FW, I would go with it.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > Has anyone gone through an analysis for just how many batrons,croutons,
> > > etc were present in 3I?
> > >
> > > Just curious for how big a standing and reserve navy an 11,000 system
> > > empire could support?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Quigg
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> >
>
>
>

The MT Rebellion Sourcebook had a section on the Imperial Navy:

Named Fleets: The Imperium has 28 named sector fleets. Range in size
from 2 to 20 Numbered Fleets. Special Named fleets are also created as
needed.

Numbered Fleets: The lmperium has about 320 numbered fleets
(approximately one for each subsector within the empire). A numbered
fleet, depending on its mission, may have between two and 10 squadrons
amounting to between 50 and 200 ships.

Numbered Reserve Fleets: The lmperium also has about 320 numbered
reserve fleets. Reserve fleets are equipped with obsolescent-but still
useful starships, and staffed by personnel in the Imperial Reserves.
Technically considered part of a Named Fleet, but rarely leave their
home subsector.

Colonial Squadrons: Individual worlds may raise their own squadrons (TL
9+ and Pop 9+). Considered part of the Reserve Fleet of their subsector.

System Squadrons: Individual worlds may raise local (non-jump) defense
squadrons (TL 9+, Pop 4+). Not part of any Fleet.

That's the starting point of the rebellion. By the the time Virus hits
most of these distinctions will be academic.

On 12-07-13 5:05, Scott Quigg wrote:
> Has anyone gone through an analysis for just how many
> batrons,croutons, etc were present in 3I?
>
> Just curious for how big a standing and reserve navy an 11,000 system
> empire could support?
>
> Cheers,
> Quigg
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> .
>
>

--
Edward Swatschek

One of them has definitely been retired, the other I believe was declared
unseaworthy last year and has been replaced with a LSD purchased from the
downsizing Royal Navy. In the meantime we are having built two LHDs built in
Spain. I could not find them on the RANs website.
http://www.navy.gov.au/The_Fleet

I don't know if it was the result of problems with the ex-Newports but our
navy has not bought anything major from the US since. It looks like most of
the fleet is now based on European designs. The ANZAC class frigates were a
Meko design for example, the LHDs and air warfare destroyers Spanish.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2012 3:21 AM
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

(I'm assuming you're Australian.)

Are you guys still running those two ex-Newport class LSTs? I thought the
conversion the RAN did on them was pretty sweet, and felt really bad when I
heard that they had all kinds of material problems which was going to
require them to be pulled out of service early, that existed when the USN
handed them over. I felt really bad that we would dump crappy goods on a
major ally like that. We had 20 of the things, we couldn't have given you
two good ones?

> I know which of these battleships I'd prefer to be in, though Victory
> is apparently undergoing a major refit so may not be available for awhile.
>
>
>
> Antony

Our Australian subs as far as I know havn't killed anyone but again most spend their time in dock. Some years back I heard a description of HMAS Collins (the name boat) as the HMAS Rock Band which gives a clue as to how noisy they were in the water. The government claims the problems with the boats have been largely solved but we will be in the market for replacements shortly.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: DEREK STANLEY
Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2012 4:15 AM
To: Traveller TNE
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

Don't ask about the subs the Brits dumped on Canada. Thus, far they've killed 2 sailors and spent their entire time in Canada in dry dock.

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: Traveller TNE <>
Sent: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:21:22 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: RE: [Traveller_TNE] Capital Ship Lineage of the Third Imperium

(I'm assuming you're Australian.)

Are you guys still running those two ex-Newport class LSTs? I thought the conversion the RAN did on them was pretty sweet, and felt really bad when I heard that they had all kinds of material problems which was going to require them to be pulled out of service early, that existed when the USN handed them over. I felt really bad that we would dump crappy goods on a major ally like that. We had 20 of the things, we couldn't have given you two good ones?

> I know which of these battleships I'd prefer to be in, though Victory
> is apparently undergoing a major refit so may not be available for awhile.
>
>
>
> Antony

------------