I've been going through all the Traveller News Service items at the SJG site for GURPS Traveller and noticed that aside from Home, pretty much all the star system names mentioned as being in the Aldebaran Sector don't appear correspond to any of the names used for star systems in Aldebaran at www.travellermap.com.
Since technically the system names, etc. for Aldebaran at www.travellermap.com aren't "official", and technically the ones used for GURPS Traveller are in an "alternative universe", what is the consensus of the group regarding which to use?
I ask, because I already have my own set of unpublished data for Aldebaran from my personal archives for CoE, and if I'm going to try to incorporate at least some of the work done on one or the other into CoE 2.0, I'd rather go with what is considered to be the consensus pick rather than pouring virtual lighter fluid on them both and totally doing my own thing.
Thinking about it some more: I'd go with the DGP material.
You aren't writing for official (Marc-sanctioned) publication, are you? If not, then the DGP stuff was the material being used during the period TNE was being published (aside from the buggy UWP problem).
As you know, Travellermap uses CORE for that sector, and the site admits
that they're unofficial. I don't know that CORE is anything other than
defunct these days. IIRC it came about during the T4 era but went
nowhere. I don't know what Jo Grant is up to these days. The UWP data
come from GENII, but I don't know if that includes the names.
I'd recommend GURPS. At least they were an official publication. And if
you need the UWP data (haven't seen it), they could be an improvement.
But lighter fluid isn't such a bad thing. There are many neglected
sectors in Charted Space. I tend to look favorably on the work done by
fans who invest the time and effort to bring a sector to life versus
some random numbers created by a flawed computer algorithm.
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
Harold Hale wrote:
>>I've been going through all the Traveller News Service items at the
SJG site for GURPS Traveller and noticed that aside from Home, pretty
much all the star system names mentioned as being in the Aldebaran
Sector don't appear correspond to any of the names used for star systems
in Aldebaran at www.travellermap.
Since technically the system names, etc. for Aldebaran at
www.travellermap.com aren't "official";, and technically the ones used
for GURPS Traveller are in an "alternative universe", what is the
consensus of the group regarding which to use?
I ask, because I already have my own set of unpublished data for
Aldebaran from my personal archives for CoE, and if I'm going to try to
incorporate at least some of the work done on one or the other into CoE
2.0, I'd rather go with what is considered to be the consensus pick
rather than pouring virtual lighter fluid on them both and totally doing
my own thing.<<
Before I try to say anything "useful," (my "weighing in" is merely a
wayward breeze wafting over the scales) I want to clarify something.
Alan's logic is good about the DGP data being what existed when TNE was
made (and you know what that imprimatur gets you, to freight up the
ecclesiastical metaphors), but Harold's original question was Travellermap
vs, GT (vs. his own CoE). Were either of those based on DGP stuff so there
are two (three) deuterocanonical sources, or does DGP make it three
(four)?
This reminds me of Dave Thomas' (SCTV) reading of Paul's Letter to the
Caucasians. "Dear Caucasians. How are you? I am fine. Come on down to Rome
sometime. Love, Paul."
> That's a tough one.
>
> As you know, Travellermap uses CORE for that sector, and the site admits
> that they're unofficial. I don't know that CORE is anything other than
> defunct these days. IIRC it came about during the T4 era but went
> nowhere. I don't know what Jo Grant is up to these days. The UWP data
> come from GENII, but I don't know if that includes the names.
>
> I'd recommend GURPS. At least they were an official publication. And if
> you need the UWP data (haven't seen it), they could be an improvement.
>
> But lighter fluid isn't such a bad thing. There are many neglected
> sectors in Charted Space. I tend to look favorably on the work done by
> fans who invest the time and effort to bring a sector to life versus
> some random numbers created by a flawed computer algorithm.
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
> Harold Hale wrote:
>
> >>I've been going through all the Traveller News Service items at the
> SJG site for GURPS Traveller and noticed that aside from Home, pretty
> much all the star system names mentioned as being in the Aldebaran
> Sector don't appear correspond to any of the names used for star systems
> in Aldebaran at www.travellermap.
>
> Since technically the system names, etc. for Aldebaran at
> www.travellermap.com aren't "official";, and technically the ones used
> for GURPS Traveller are in an "alternative universe", what is the
> consensus of the group regarding which to use?
>
> I ask, because I already have my own set of unpublished data for
> Aldebaran from my personal archives for CoE, and if I'm going to try to
> incorporate at least some of the work done on one or the other into CoE
> 2.0, I'd rather go with what is considered to be the consensus pick
> rather than pouring virtual lighter fluid on them both and totally doing
> my own thing.<<
>
Here's the basic data problems as I see it...
Travellermap: I can accept that the sector might be more sparse in terms of the number of stars, but there are far too many systems with no starport or only poor facilities. Aldebaran should be bit more civilized than what is presented. Not Solomani Rim civilized, but....
GT: Names of systems, but no locations and only sketchy details.
Example: "Amajor fleet engagement is currently being fought in the vicinity of this starsystem39;s primary gas giant, according to Solomani observers reporting to TNS.The identities of the warring fleets are not known at this time. The fact of abattle in the Monterey star system is significant because of its proximity tothe Solomani capital of Home."
So we know Monterey is near Home, has more than one gas giant, and that's about it.
DGP: Nice dot map, a few named systems, including UWPs and locations for those systems.
Traveller Wiki: Some more data, nothing comprehensive.
Side Note: My current thinking is that Home takes a big hit and would not be the center of a pocket empire. Logically there should be a pocket empire in the sector, but I was thinking perhaps it would be more rimward. This leaves lots of expansion area for the Terrans and helps to explain why they are busy doing things other than finding the RC and scaring the crap out of them.
It sounds like the Travellermap is unsatisfactory (for perhaps subjective
reasons, but all reasons are subjective, and yours sound reasonable) and
is unofficial anyway.
GT sounds like there is actually "no there there." There are some sparse
datapoints, but no locations nor UWPs, so there's really nothing to
"ignore" or "discard." What little is there you can overlay onto something
else to show that you were congruent with it. "Monterey" is the sort of
thing you don't even need to change a name for. You could say it was the
name of the sun or another world in the system that had a military base on
it, or the reporter was looking at an old map, or the Solomani press
officer was using a code name for Opsec, etc., the usual apologetics. It
is semi, plausible-deniability official, so would be nice to paper over
to, and since there's so little there, won't require any heavy lifting.
Traveller wiki no real data, not official anyway.
It sounds like the DGP data is the only data worthy of the name, along
with the Travellermap, but as deuterocanonical sources go, the DGP data is
older and therefore takes precedence. As it was accepted by the bulk of
the faithful back in 1992 that's why we went with it, so you could do
worse, and this way you're being consistent with the rest of that stuff,
and can be damned alongside us "for fellowship." (Robert Bolt, A Man for
All Seasons)
In a universe of non-ideal solutions, the DGP data is probably the least
non-ideal of all of them.
So here's the loaded question: did you base your existing CoE stuff on the
DGP data or something else?
> Here's the basic data problems as I see it...
> Travellermap: I can accept that the sector might be more sparse in terms
> of the number of stars, but there are far too many systems with no
> starport or only poor facilities. Aldebaran should be bit more civilized
> than what is presented. Not Solomani Rim civilized, but....
>
> GT: Names of systems, but no locations and only sketchy details.
>
> Example: "Amajor fleet engagement is currently being fought in the
> vicinity of this starsystem39;s primary gas giant, according to Solomani
> observers reporting to TNS.The identities of the warring fleets are not
> known at this time. The fact of abattle in the Monterey star system is
> significant because of its proximity tothe Solomani capital of Home."
> So we know Monterey is near Home, has more than one gas giant, and that's
> about it.
> DGP: Nice dot map, a few named systems, including UWPs and locations for
> those systems.
> Traveller Wiki: Some more data, nothing comprehensive.
>
> Side Note: My current thinking is that Home takes a big hit and would not
> be the center of a pocket empire. Logically there should be a pocket
> empire in the sector, but I was thinking perhaps it would be more
> rimward. This leaves lots of expansion area for the Terrans and helps to
> explain why they are busy doing things other than finding the RC and
> scaring the crap out of them.
>
"So here's the loaded question: did you base your existing CoE stuff on the
DGP data or something else?"
DGP's dot map, and bits and pieces out of Solomani & Aslan. Actually, the Winston Democracy and Malorn Union first made their appearance in S&A. GT referenced the Malorn Union in their publication GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 4 in discussing another alien race.
Kinda messy....and Traveller story canon is very much a layer cake made of a variety sources. Sources that can find themselves out of print but not forgotten.
FYI: If you want really messy, technically Gabreelism, which makes reference to a religion mentioned in S&A (The Searchers for the One Faith), is canon in T4 by virtue of the fact of appearing in the licensed BITS publication "101 Religions" and predates anything done with the 1248 setting, in addition to appearing in Traveller Chronicle (licensing originally murky), now part of the collection of canon at FFE (so I've heard).
The bottomline I think is that we can spend ours talking about the writing or we can...you know...write. ;-)
Anyway, expect Aldebaran Sector, the CoE version with additional c.1105 data, sometime in the coming months. I'll let you people parse out what I drew from where and what I made up as I went. I promise it won't be boring.
Traveller Chronicle was just the standard freebie fanzine license, so the
SoK material was not at all official on that basis, but if elements of it
were later gathered up in the chariot into paradise, well, there you go.
> "So here's the loaded question: did you base your existing CoE stuff on
> the
> DGP data or something else?"
> DGP's dot map, and bits and pieces out of Solomani & Aslan. Actually,
> the Winston Democracy and Malorn Union first made their appearance in
> S&A. GT referenced the Malorn Union in their publication GURPS
> Traveller: Alien Races 4 in discussing another alien race.
> Kinda messy....and Traveller story canon is very much a layer cake made of
> a variety sources. Sources that can find themselves out of print but not
> forgotten.
> FYI: If you want really messy, technically Gabreelism, which makes
> reference to a religion mentioned in S&A (The Searchers for the One
> Faith), is canon in T4 by virtue of the fact of appearing in the licensed
> BITS publication "101 Religions" and predates anything done with the 1248
> setting, in addition to appearing in Traveller Chronicle (licensing
> originally murky), now part of the collection of canon at FFE (so I've
> heard).
> The bottomline I think is that we can spend ours talking about the writing
> or we can...you know...write. ;-)
> Anyway, expect Aldebaran Sector, the CoE version with additional c.1105
> data, sometime in the coming months. I'll let you people parse out what
> I drew from where and what I made up as I went. I promise it won't be
> boring.
>
Well, if there's really nothing in GURPS (I skipped it), Dave's right:
There's no there there.
AFAICT, TravellerMap and CORE use the same dotmap, which looks exactly
like the one in DGP's S&A. And while it's considered forbidden canon
(ooo scary), the dotmaps are pretty much accepted by most GMs as legit.
I don't recall if those dotmaps were DGP's creation or taken from GDW in
some unreleased work (Aldebaran wasn't included in /Atlas of the
Imperium/). Maybe you know that answer. Maybe Dave or Don do.
On a tangential note, I wonder what other dotmaps would've been created
had DGP published the other alien volumes it claimed to have on its slate.
I recall reading an article a few years ago about how Lucasarts had a
"Canon Coordinator" or some such title. This guy's job (and he was paid
to do it) was to maintain the integrity of the Star Wars timeline and
make sure that all the licensed books, graphic novels & comics, web
shorts, and TV shows didn't conflict with either each other or the
official storyline dictated by the films. Traveller never had that, so
it's no surprise that there's a conflict between CoE and 1248 even
though both were licensed.
I agree with your assertion that there should be a PE somewhere in the
sector. The astrography (assuming you use the DGP dotmap) is sparse. J-1
ships would have an impossible time getting around. I never got that it
wasn't settled more, especially since J-2 has been around for thousands
of years. I get that the Imperium had all of this ready made
infrastructure from the 1st Imp so they did all the work of colonizing
and building civilization, but there's such a strong desire among
Terrans (a significant portion anyway) to explore new worlds, build
things themselves, and establish their very own homestead (for a whole
host of reasons), that in seems strange to me that 5 subsectors rimward
from Terra are whole subsectors of empty worlds.
Assuming you ignore MJD's 1248 work for that portion of space, I think
it might be reasonable to think that refugees fleeing Imperial Civil War
#2 (or Rebellion), the tyranny of Terra, and Virus would head rimward
and build PEs. So what if life is tough? At least no one is shooting at
you or trying to assimilate your toaster. And while Virus does go as far
rimward as Aldebaran, we know that the focus of viral activity (or would
that be "locus" in this case) is Core and Cymbelline and the route that
connects them. The world density in Aldebaran is thin, especially when
compared to the juciness of the Vilani Main and the Imperiun as a whole,
so Virus might get bored or find that the technological meat on the
bones of these worlds isn't worth gnawing on.
Just my thoughts anyway.
Do you plan on having this stuff hosted on a website somewhere?
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
Harold Hale wrote:
>>DGP's dot map, and bits and pieces out of Solomani & Aslan.
Actually, the Winston Democracy and Malorn Union first made their
appearance in S&A. GT referenced the Malorn Union in their publication
GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 4 in discussing another alien race.
Kinda messy....and Traveller story canon is very much a layer cake made
of a variety sources. Sources that can find themselves out of print but
not forgotten.
FYI: If you want really messy, technically Gabreelism, which makes
reference to a religion mentioned in S&A (The Searchers for the One
Faith), is canon in T4 by virtue of the fact of appearing in the
licensed BITS publication "101 Religions" and predates anything done
with the 1248 setting, in addition to appearing in Traveller Chronicle
(licensing originally murky), now part of the collection of canon at FFE
(so I've heard).
The bottomline I think is that we can spend ours talking about the
writing or we can...you know...write. ;-)
Anyway, expect Aldebaran Sector, the CoE version with additional c.1105
data, sometime in the coming months. I'll let you people parse out what
I drew from where and what I made up as I went. I promise it won't be
boring.<<
<?subject=Re%3A%20Aldebaran%20Sector%20system%20names>
Good analysis/critique/discussion. In rough order,
No sir, I do not. While I may have known at the time, it was not a
sufficiently salient issue to impress itself. Maybe Don does or can find
out.
If the dotmaps existed, I am confident that DGP would have spilled them
back in the '90s.
The correct title is "Altar Boy."
Some stuff doesn't make "sense" from a "this really all happened
logically" perspective, but from a "this is the order in which they were
developed, so reflect thinking or priorities at that time" sense. Whether
that applies to Aldebaran or not, I don't know.
> Well, if there's really nothing in GURPS (I skipped it), Dave's right:
> There's no there there.
>
> AFAICT, TravellerMap and CORE use the same dotmap, which looks exactly
> like the one in DGP's S&A. And while it's considered forbidden canon
> (ooo scary), the dotmaps are pretty much accepted by most GMs as legit.
> I don't recall if those dotmaps were DGP's creation or taken from GDW in
> some unreleased work (Aldebaran wasn't included in /Atlas of the
> Imperium/). Maybe you know that answer. Maybe Dave or Don do.
>
> On a tangential note, I wonder what other dotmaps would've been created
> had DGP published the other alien volumes it claimed to have on its slate.
>
> I recall reading an article a few years ago about how Lucasarts had a
> "Canon Coordinator" or some such title. This guy's job (and he was paid
> to do it) was to maintain the integrity of the Star Wars timeline and
> make sure that all the licensed books, graphic novels & comics, web
> shorts, and TV shows didn't conflict with either each other or the
> official storyline dictated by the films. Traveller never had that, so
> it's no surprise that there's a conflict between CoE and 1248 even
> though both were licensed.
>
> I agree with your assertion that there should be a PE somewhere in the
> sector. The astrography (assuming you use the DGP dotmap) is sparse. J-1
> ships would have an impossible time getting around. I never got that it
> wasn't settled more, especially since J-2 has been around for thousands
> of years. I get that the Imperium had all of this ready made
> infrastructure from the 1st Imp so they did all the work of colonizing
> and building civilization, but there's such a strong desire among
> Terrans (a significant portion anyway) to explore new worlds, build
> things themselves, and establish their very own homestead (for a whole
> host of reasons), that in seems strange to me that 5 subsectors rimward
> from Terra are whole subsectors of empty worlds.
>
> Assuming you ignore MJD's 1248 work for that portion of space, I think
> it might be reasonable to think that refugees fleeing Imperial Civil War
> #2 (or Rebellion), the tyranny of Terra, and Virus would head rimward
> and build PEs. So what if life is tough? At least no one is shooting at
> you or trying to assimilate your toaster. And while Virus does go as far
> rimward as Aldebaran, we know that the focus of viral activity (or would
> that be "locus" in this case) is Core and Cymbelline and the route that
> connects them. The world density in Aldebaran is thin, especially when
> compared to the juciness of the Vilani Main and the Imperiun as a whole,
> so Virus might get bored or find that the technological meat on the
> bones of these worlds isn't worth gnawing on.
>
> Just my thoughts anyway.
>
> Do you plan on having this stuff hosted on a website somewhere?
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
>
> Harold Hale wrote:
>
> >>DGP's dot map, and bits and pieces out of Solomani & Aslan.
> Actually, the Winston Democracy and Malorn Union first made their
> appearance in S&A. GT referenced the Malorn Union in their publication
> GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 4 in discussing another alien race.
> Kinda messy....and Traveller story canon is very much a layer cake made
> of a variety sources. Sources that can find themselves out of print but
> not forgotten.
> FYI: If you want really messy, technically Gabreelism, which makes
> reference to a religion mentioned in S&A (The Searchers for the One
> Faith), is canon in T4 by virtue of the fact of appearing in the
> licensed BITS publication "101 Religions" and predates anything done
> with the 1248 setting, in addition to appearing in Traveller Chronicle
> (licensing originally murky), now part of the collection of canon at FFE
> (so I've heard).
> The bottomline I think is that we can spend ours talking about the
> writing or we can...you know...write. ;-)
> Anyway, expect Aldebaran Sector, the CoE version with additional c.1105
> data, sometime in the coming months. I'll let you people parse out what
> I drew from where and what I made up as I went. I promise it won't be
> boring.<<
> <?subject=Re%3A%20Aldebaran%20Sector%20system%20names>
>
>
For the record on 1248, there is virtually nothing done for Aldebaran. All there really is, is a single âborder mapâ of Charted Space. It shows the Terran Confederation and its three clients in Solomani Rim, and a âpseudo podâ from the Solomani Confederation successor state into Aldebaran. The âpseudo podâ touches subsectors C-D and G-H. It most pointedly does NOT touch Home, which is apparently unaligned. So, there is no world or star information for Aldebaran in 1248, and there isnât even a dot map.
And, since Harold is intentionally NOT following 1248, there is literally nothing for him to glean from 1248.
The closest anything gets is in the Freedom League (nee Reformation Coalition) book, which covers subsectors A-D of the Solomani Rim. If the Terran Confederation book had had a chance to be completed, there is a good chance Aldebaran would have been covered. But that didnât happen, and I doubt there is even any preliminary work that had been done. So, there is nothing to draw from 1248 for Aldebaran, even if Harold wanted to.
Mike West
From: []
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 9:16 AM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Aldebaran Sector system names
Well, if there's really nothing in GURPS (I skipped it), Dave's right: There's no there there.
AFAICT, TravellerMap and CORE use the same dotmap, which looks exactly like the one in DGP's S&A. And while it's considered forbidden canon (ooo scary), the dotmaps are pretty much accepted by most GMs as legit. I don't recall if those dotmaps were DGP's creation or taken from GDW in some unreleased work (Aldebaran wasn't included in Atlas of the Imperium). Maybe you know that answer. Maybe Dave or Don do.
On a tangential note, I wonder what other dotmaps would've been created had DGP published the other alien volumes it claimed to have on its slate.
I recall reading an article a few years ago about how Lucasarts had a "Canon Coordinator" or some such title. This guy's job (and he was paid to do it) was to maintain the integrity of the Star Wars timeline and make sure that all the licensed books, graphic novels & comics, web shorts, and TV shows didn't conflict with either each other or the official storyline dictated by the films. Traveller never had that, so it's no surprise that there's a conflict between CoE and 1248 even though both were licensed.
I agree with your assertion that there should be a PE somewhere in the sector. The astrography (assuming you use the DGP dotmap) is sparse. J-1 ships would have an impossible time getting around. I never got that it wasn't settled more, especially since J-2 has been around for thousands of years. I get that the Imperium had all of this ready made infrastructure from the 1st Imp so they did all the work of colonizing and building civilization, but there's such a strong desire among Terrans (a significant portion anyway) to explore new worlds, build things themselves, and establish their very own homestead (for a whole host of reasons), that in seems strange to me that 5 subsectors rimward from Terra are whole subsectors of empty worlds.
Assuming you ignore MJD's 1248 work for that portion of space, I think it might be reasonable to think that refugees fleeing Imperial Civil War #2 (or Rebellion), the tyranny of Terra, and Virus would head rimward and build PEs. So what if life is tough? At least no one is shooting at you or trying to assimilate your toaster. And while Virus does go as far rimward as Aldebaran, we know that the focus of viral activity (or would that be "locus" in this case) is Core and Cymbelline and the route that connects them. The world density in Aldebaran is thin, especially when compared to the juciness of the Vilani Main and the Imperiun as a whole, so Virus might get bored or find that the technological meat on the bones of these worlds isn't worth gnawing on.
Just my thoughts anyway.
Do you plan on having this stuff hosted on a website somewhere?
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
Harold Hale wrote:
>>DGP39;s dot map, and bits and pieces out of Solomani & Aslan. Actually, the Winston Democracy and Malorn Union first made their appearance in S&A. GT referenced the Malorn Union in their publication GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 4 in discussing another alien race.
Kinda messy....and Traveller story canon is very much a layer cake made of a variety sources. Sources that can find themselves out of print but not forgotten.
FYI: If you want really messy, technically Gabreelism, which makes reference to a religion mentioned in S&A (The Searchers for the One Faith), is canon in T4 by virtue of the fact of appearing in the licensed BITS publication "101 Religions" and predates anything done with the 1248 setting, in addition to appearing in Traveller Chronicle (licensing originally murky), now part of the collection of canon at FFE (so I've heard).
The bottomline I think is that we can spend ours talking about the writing or we can...you know...write. ;-)
Anyway, expect Aldebaran Sector, the CoE version with additional c.1105 data, sometime in the coming months. I'll let you people parse out what I drew from where and what I made up as I went. I promise it won't be boring.<<
The T5SS hasn't touched Aldebaran yet; our first job was cleaning and correcting the Atlas sectors. After the Atlas sectors, we've touched the close Aslan sectors, and right now are working on the old land grant sectors. Travellermap39;s data should show the differences.
As to the validity of the DGP dotmap, remember DGP materials are not forbidden canon for either Marc or myself (we both have specific permissions from Rodge). However, when handled appropriately, any OTU licensee can use the DGP materials, but Marc or I still recommend guidance.
As of right now, my direction from Marc is that 1248 is in the canon path, and Traveller Chronicle is apocrypha. And as of right now, I'm not aware of any official data for Aldebaran.
As to what T5SS is working on, right now the sectors are Spica (second pass), the Beyond (first pass), Vanguard Reaches (first pass), and Far Frontiers (gathering data). The goal is to provide OTU licensees with consistent data across the entirety of Charted Space.
"Assuming you ignore MJD's 1248 work for that portion of space, I think it might be reasonable to think that refugees fleeing Imperial Civil War #2 (or Rebellion), the tyranny of Terra, and Virus would head rimward and build PEs. So what if life is tough? At least no one is shooting at you or trying to assimilate your toaster. And while Virus does go as far rimward as Aldebaran, we know that the focus of viral activity (or would that be "locus" in this case) is Core and Cymbelline and the route that connects them. The world density in Aldebaran is thin, especially when compared to the juciness of the Vilani Main and the Imperiun as a whole, so Virus might get bored or find that the technological meat on the bones of these worlds isn't worth gnawing on."
CoE looking forward:
I'd like to do multiple settings. Three prequels, one centered on the final days before the Collapse (c.1120-1130), one centered on Terra during the Terran Civil War era (1133-1163), and one that takes place during the Conquistador era (c.1167-1195) as the Gabreelists are first heading out into the Sol subsector and bumping into things and other people--this latter setting would have more of a "Pirates of the Caribbean/Seven Voyages of Sinbad" feel to it. The two former ones may or may not be full blown RPG settings, but instead may be BL/Striker II scenarios with some background, sort of like the old Avalon Hill Panzer Leader/Panzer Blitz/Arab-Israeli Wars games. A reboot of the primary setting c.1202 of course...though it might be interesting as well to do something set in 1227 (25 years after events in the original write up). Looking "far future" (no pun intended), it could be interesting to revisit the Solomani Rim post-Empress Wave (c.1402?), then again c.3130 (2,000 years after the Collapse). Now I'm getting all Babylon 5/Arthur C. Clarke....
Of course all this assumes that one has the *time* to do them all, which is unlikely. Maybe in the novelizations.
Aldebaran would indeed probably get its share of Terran Republic outcasts before the Terran Republic actually reaches there, also Solomani Party holdouts, rogue AIs, TEDs, and other assorted good/bad/ugly types. What I picture though is something more akin to the American West, which fits given the stellar density of the region (that also makes the Terran Republic the "settlers and railroad men" I suppose). If it ends up looking like "Firefly", I blame Dave. It's always the "go to" answer.
As for MJD's 1248 work, we talked at one point before he got it published, and he shared what he had in mind. I have a lot of respect for him personally, but I think he dismissed what I had envisioned for the Solomani Rim far too quickly, didn't seem interested in any sort of compromise between my vision and his, and that was that. Pity, because there was absolutely no reason why the CoE setting couldn't have fit with what he was doing, and it would have interesting to see what he would have done with it, given that by that point I was near starting back to school and likely wouldn't have had time to do all the writing necessary to bring CoE up to 1248.
A hint of what that might have looked like would be something like this: The Terran Republic would have gone through a period of secularization as Shoshanna had envisioned following the Battle of Ganesh. It would have taken a number of years, and once successfully completed there would have been a clear separation of faith and state that would have been enshrined in a new constitution. The Republic and the Dingir League would have eventually became a single political entity, either called the Terran Republic or something else (I had thoughts that the Republic would become an Empire but that's a bit too Star Trek mirror universe for me...). The focus on the Terrans would have been on establishing control of the old Solomani Confederation territories, giving Martin plenty of room to do whatever he wanted with the old Imperium. Of course a Terran fleet would have been there to take down "CyberLucan" and his minions. Indeed I thought it would be an interesting bit of plot twist if the Terrans committed at least some of the atrocities during the war that the Star Vikings got blamed for, adding a bit more justification for why some of the Star Vikings decided that they were leaving--no one wants to accused of crimes they didn't commit.
At any rate, whether CoE stands as a parallel universe and a branch off the canon tree much like GURPS Traveller, stands to become canon, or is simple heresy (which would be ironic given the nature of the material), or whatever, what's important is that exists at all. Indeed perhaps it's best to let the players decide where it belongs.
"Do you plan on having this stuff hosted on a website somewhere?"
Yep. Indeed, I planned on starting on that once the CoE was in a more complete state of revision. I might want to finish that project too, eh?
I am using your CoE stuff with my TNE game. We are about mid 1205 now
and they have not yet bumped into any of your stuff but they are
exploring the top subsectors in the rim.
I liked the CoE stuff. Given the collapse it was highly likely a
religious based govt would appear somewhere and even retain some of the
imperial era knowledge - it worked for the church and the arabs post
collapse of the roman empire
cheers
richard
On 29/04/2015 21:58, Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]
wrote:
> "Assuming you ignore MJD's 1248 work for that portion of space, I
> think it might be reasonable to think that refugees fleeing Imperial
> Civil
> War #2 (or Rebellion), the tyranny of Terra, and Virus would head
> rimward and build PEs. So what if life is tough? At least no one is
> shooting at you or trying to assimilate your toaster. And while Virus
> does go as far rimward as Aldebaran, we know that the focus of viral
> activity (or would that be "locus" in this case) is Core and
> Cymbelline and the route that connects them. The world density in
> Aldebaran is thin, especially when compared to the juciness of the
> Vilani Main and the Imperiun as a whole, so Virus might get bored or
> find that the technological meat on the bones of these worlds isn't
> worth gnawing on."
>
> CoE looking forward:
>
> I'd like to do multiple settings. Three prequels, one centered on the
> final days before the Collapse (c.1120-1130), one centered on Terra
> during the Terran Civil War era (1133-1163), and one that takes place
> during the Conquistador era (c.1167-1195) as the Gabreelists are first
> heading out into the Sol subsector and bumping into things and other
> people--this latter setting would have more of a "Pirates of the
> Caribbean/Seven Voyages of Sinbad" feel to it. The two former ones may
> or may not be full blown RPG settings, but instead may be BL/Striker
> II scenarios with some background, sort of like the old Avalon Hill
> Panzer Leader/Panzer Blitz/Arab-Israeli Wars games. A reboot of the
> primary setting c.1202 of course...though it might be interesting as
> well to do something set in 1227 (25 years after events in the
> original write up). Looking "far future" (no pun intended), it could
> be interesting to revisit the Solomani Rim post-Empress Wave
> (c.1402?), then again c.3130 (2,000 years after the Collapse). Now
> I'm getting all Babylon 5/Arthur C. Clarke....
>
> Of course all this assumes that one has the *time* to do them all,
> which is unlikely. Maybe in the novelizations.
>
> Aldebaran would indeed probably get its share of Terran Republic
> outcasts before the Terran Republic actually reaches there, also
> Solomani Party holdouts, rogue AIs, TEDs, and other assorted
> good/bad/ugly types. What I picture though is something more akin to
> the American West, which fits given the stellar density of the region
> (that also makes the Terran Republic the "settlers and railroad men" I
> suppose). If it ends up looking like "Firefly", I blame Dave. It's
> always the "go to" answer.
>
> As for MJD's 1248 work, we talked at one point before he got it
> published, and he shared what he had in mind. I have a lot of respect
> for him personally, but I think he dismissed what I had envisioned for
> the Solomani Rim far too quickly, didn't seem interested in any sort
> of compromise between my vision and his, and that was that. Pity,
> because there was absolutely no reason why the CoE setting couldn't
> have fit with what he was doing, and it would have interesting to see
> what he would have done with it, given that by that point I was near
> starting back to school and likely wouldn't have had time to do all
> the writing necessary to bring CoE up to 1248.
>
> A hint of what that might have looked like would be something like
> this: The Terran Republic would have gone through a period of
> secularization as Shoshanna had envisioned following the Battle of
> Ganesh. It would have taken a number of years, and once successfully
> completed there would have been a clear separation of faith and state
> that would have been enshrined in a new constitution. The Republic and
> the Dingir League would have eventually became a single political
> entity, either called the Terran Republic or something else (I had
> thoughts that the Republic would become an Empire but that's a bit too
> Star Trek mirror universe for me...). The focus on the Terrans would
> have been on establishing control of the old Solomani Confederation
> territories, giving Martin plenty of room to do whatever he wanted
> with the old Imperium. Of course a Terran fleet would have been there
> to take down "CyberLucan" and his minions. Indeed I thought it would
> be an interesting bit of plot twist if the Terrans committed at least
> some of the atrocities during the war that the Star Vikings got blamed
> for, adding a bit more justification for why some of the Star Vikings
> decided that they were leaving--no one wants to accused of crimes they
> didn't commit.
>
> At any rate, whether CoE stands as a parallel universe and a branch
> off the canon tree much like GURPS Traveller, stands to become canon,
> or is simple heresy (which would be ironic given the nature of the
> material), or whatever, what's important is that exists at all. Indeed
> perhaps it's best to let the players decide where it belongs.
>
> "Do you plan on having this stuff hosted on a website somewhere?"
>
> Yep. Indeed, I planned on starting on that once the CoE was in a more
> complete state of revision. I might want to finish that project too, eh?
>
> As for MJD's 1248 work, we talked at one point before he got it published,
> and he shared what he had in mind. I have a lot of respect for him personally,
> but I think he dismissed what I had envisioned for the Solomani Rim far too
> quickly, didn't seem interested in any sort of compromise between my vision
> and his, and that was that. Pity, because there was absolutely no reason why
> the CoE setting couldn't have fit with what he was doing, and it would have
> interesting to see what he would have done with it, given that by that point
> I was near starting back to school and likely wouldn't have had time to do
> all the writing necessary to bring CoE up to 1248.
I do not pretend to speak for MJD and will never speak for anyone else other than myself. However, I can offer my observations of what has been said over time.
MJD's primary goal for the Terrans (at least the Terran based polity) was for them to not be racists, species-ists, nutcases, extremists, or anything like that. He wanted their government to be flawed, but overall positive. Apparently the Gabreelists didn't meet that threshold for him.
In his defense, I can only offer my own observations. When I first read the Gabreelists material (on the web, way after publication), I never actually read them as "good guys". I saw them as just another extremist government that was spawned by Terra. This time they were just religious extremists rather than species superiority extremists. I admit that I saw them as nuanced, with both good and bad elements, but that there was still a definite extremist (and dangerous) thread running through them and their government. It wasn't until much later when I saw you posting about it that I finally found out that they were supposed to actually be "good guys". That had just never occurred to me while reading the material. I doubt I was the only one who read it that way.
So, I have to conclude that the Gabreelist foundation of the Terran Republic just didn't work for him. Even if the government is eventually transitioned to a less theocratic form, or even a purely secular government, that foundation would still flavor the polity in a way he apparently just didn't want to go.
Note that none of this is an actual criticism of the setting. It is well constructed and thought out, and contains a tremendous amount of nuance that is really well done. If not based on Terra, and reduced to a smaller size, it would be a beautiful pocket empire. (Moving it from Terra to Home and making it a little over a subsector in size would be extremely cool.) But even as "good guys", I would probably only use such a Gabreelist polity as a destination, not a home base. It would be a wonderful place to set up adventures and let the players worry about the different culture and customs. But I would never expect players to want to stay.
The reason is because I just can't trust theocracies. Even if they appear to be benevolent and benign, theocracies just scare the sh** out of me.
"I am using your CoE stuff with my TNE game. We are about mid 1205 now and they have not yet bumped into any of your stuff but they are exploring the top subsectors in the rim.
I liked the CoE stuff. Given the collapse it was highly likely a religious based govt would appear somewhere and even retain some of the imperial era knowledge - it worked for the church and the arabs post collapse of the roman empire
cheers
richard"
Enjoy! When they get to the main world of Arkiirkii, be aware that all the main planetary defenses, in particular the meson guns intended to engage capital ships, are still operational...the RCES will need to run a covert mission to the surface to find the mountain that serves as the operations center for the guns. Until the guns are disabled or the locals convinced the RC are "the good guys", anything/anyone coming into orbit and unfortunate enough not to find the blind spot in the sensor grid might end up like a mouse tossed into a microwave....
And thank you for "get it" when it comes to CoE. That's exactly the take I was hoping people would have.
In our 21st century way of thinking, theocracies *should* scare the sh** out of you. The only examples we have of them in recent times are absolutely brutal in their treatment of their citizens and have terrible records on human rights. If they have been benign at times, it has only been because the minions of the theocrats became lax, and the moment the citizens started enjoying satellite TV or the Internet too much, the oppression stick is brought back out.
However, looking back over our history, particularly in the West but also elsewhere, religion and government were intertwined at all levels. Secularism is a relatively recent development in our history, and even now religion and religious organizations have a substantial influence on our laws and how our governments behave. Over the long haul (now we're looking over many hundreds of years), religious revivals have taken place in Europe, North America, Asia, and elsewhere, not once but many times. To say that in the 56th-57th century that a religious revival would not take place somewhere and that by then we would have long since put away those traditions and shelved our faith as something that only primitive peoples hang on to flies in the face of everything we know about the long history of humanity--faith and organized religion don't go away, they evolve, and every so often someone introduces a new idea about them into the mix.
FYI: CoE was written such that you could see the Terrans as good guys, as bad guys, or as some mix that may be a bit of both. Also, if you look at the map of the Solomani Rim, what you have in the Terran Republic is a world that is recovering very nicely, surrounded by some high population worlds that are going to take many years to rebuild, and a whole lot of other systems that were essentially cemetery worlds. Indeed, the map of the Republic at first glance makes Terra look unstoppable. When you look closer, you see that Terra has reach, but it ain't no Regency, and unlike the RC, it doesn't have TL 16 friends to help them out. As such, it's not the juggernaut you might think it is.
1. COE: I was in the military overseas during those years, and I never encountered the campaign materials. But the discussion here on the list, and the presence of the author, has gotten me interested. Where can I buy the COE books? How many of them are there? What are their titles?
2. MJD: I have spent WAY too much time reading the various 1248 books, and while I don't agree with everything in them, I absolutely do salute MJD for having both the desire and the actual skills to get some sort of official ending to so many of the TNE plots actually published. Someone previously stated that 1248 Terrans were not villains, but I think you may have missed one thing that 1248 overused, and is one of the things I occasionally find annoying. In 1248, there seem to be good/bad versions of every major race and culture. Do you like the Vilani? Good, because here is a good Vilani empire. Wait, do you disklike Vilani? Well then you are in luck, because over here are is the separate but evil bad Vilani empire! Same with good and bad Zhodani, good and bad Vagr, and (here is where I started)-- good and bad Solomani civilizations. I think the only group he didn't have evil twin empires for were the Aslan, but I could be wrong. MJD apparently loves the Aslan. I hope this doesn't sound too critical, because I do really like the 1248 setting, and I applaud MJD for not only having the ambition to make it happen, but also bringing to the setting grandeur and dignity, things I occasionally missed in other Traveller materials..
3. GURPS Spaceships (?): I really thought my GURPS years were behind me, but recent complements to this book here on the list have made me reconsider. Where do I start if I want to get into these widely-praised starship design rules?
[Dave: Some 1248 discussion here. Feel free to move on …]
> In 1248, there seem to be good/bad versions of every major race and culture.
OK, I totally grant you the whole “good Solomani” and “evil Solomani” empires. That is 100% true. But for the rest? I dunno. There was only one Vilani empire; it got uppity, then got crushed, then mellowed. So unless you are counting the single empire has transitioning from good to evil (or evil to good), I don’t see it. And, while there were two primary Zhodani pocket empires explicitly described, neither were good or evil. One was traditional and one was very different, but both were (at least supposed to be) nominally “good”. They were definitely not evil. And the Vargr were the Vargr. There have always been “hostile” Vargr and “friendly” Vargr. None of that is new and it should definitely be expected from the Vargr, regardless of setting.
On the Regency front, I can definitely see where you might get that idea about the Imperial Regency and the League of Deneb. And, yes, the IR was the “baddie” of the Spinward States. However, the League of Deneb was not necessarily particularly “good”, and the IR was not really evil. They were proud and misguided, angry and aggressive, but they were not truly evil. It was intended for the two states to contrast each other in some interesting ways. With the IR, you had a fairly monolithic approach with a fairly unified technology base. With Deneb, it was much more varied in both categories. Also, from a leadership perspective, Deneb was much nicer, as each world had the freedom to be organized as they saw fit. The IR was much more rigid and much less flexible. But, for the general population, the IR was probably better to live in. Since the Deneb worlds were free to run themselves, all sorts of totalitarian and nasty nonsense was able to flourish. With the IR, while the interstellar government was autocratic, the world governments were forced to be much more open. The average IR citizen probably lived a freer life (in a good way) than a typical Deneb citizen. So, while the two empires were intended to contrast each other, it was far from a “good” vs “evil” type contrast.
But you are absolutely correct on the Solomani. It was one “good” empire and one “evil” empire. If they had been given the time to produce a Terran sourcebook, then there likely would have been some additional nuance added to the story, with various other minor empires (of varying small sizes) introduced to add more flavor and character. But the emergence of Mongoose Traveller cut 1248 much shorter than desired.
Again, I certainly don't speak for Martin. However, I can speak for myself, so can explain anything you want out of the Spinward States or the sliver of Terran client states from the Freedom League book.
> To say that in the 56th-57th century that a religious revival would not
> take place somewhere and that by then we would have long since put away
> those traditions and shelved our faith as something that only primitive
> peoples hang on to flies in the face of everything we know about the
> long history of humanity--faith and organized religion don't go away,
> they evolve, and every so often someone introduces a new idea about them
> into the mix.
I do not actually disagree with this. However, there is a huge distance between a religious revival and a theocracy. I still think a theocracy, in any century where people are recognizably people (which is an integral assumption of Traveller), is almost guaranteed to suck, and suck hard. That is pretty much dictated by human nature more than anything else. If the setting had used the religious revival as something that influenced an otherwise independent government to take more action, then it would be different. In this case, the religious revival took over/replaced the government, and that is a theocracy.
And, again, I want to stress that I like the setting and idea, and I think it was well done and worthwhile. I can just see why Martin was hesitant to use it as the foundation of the Terran Confederation he was trying to develop.
Also, I haven't read CoE in a while, so I can't remember how tightly linked it is to being developed on Terra. If it isn't that tightly bound to Terra itself (despite the name of the setting), I think transferring it to Home would allow an opportunity for coexistence. If that would work, I would love to see such a write-up as an alternative CoE setting. (Even if just an outline.)
>OK, I totally grant you the whole “good Solomani” and “evil Solomani” empires. >That is 100% true. But for the rest? I dunno. There was only one Vilani empire;
You are right, Mike.
I think I probably meant to write "Good Regency/Bad Regency" there, and somehow typed "Vilani" instead. And of course the successor cultures of 1248 are more nuanced than my "evil twin" metaphor, but it still seems a lot like MJD wanted to have his cake and eat it too with almost every major civilization.
None of this stops me from being a huge fan of the 1248 setting!
>>OK, I totally grant you the whole “good Solomani” and “evil Solomani” empires.
>>That is 100% true. But for the rest? I dunno. There was only one Vilani empire;
>
>You are right, Mike.
>
>I think I probably meant to write "Good Regency/Bad Regency" there, and somehow
>typed "Vilani" instead. And of course the successor cultures of 1248 are more
>nuanced than my "evil twin" metaphor, but it still seems a lot like MJD wanted
>to have his cake and eat it too with almost every major civilization.
For the Regency, it isn't so much Good Regency/Bad Regency, but rather Bad Regency and everyone else. And everyone else is varying shades of gray. (Though the League of Spinward States and Regina are obviously portrayed positively.) Also, unlike most other places that are at the beginning of "the new normal" (e.g. Freedom League and Terran Confederation), the Spinward Domain is simply at the "calm before the storm". Basically, everything is about to go down, and things will change, potentially a lot.
The Imperial Regency is very much a transition state. It is untenable in its current state, and it has to settle its leadership (their leader is old and has been somewhat marginalized) and determine its leadership succession. It also has to react to its overall political failures and the fact that 2/3s of its member worlds has left. That will most likely be bloody, violent, and take a while. I figure you are looking at 10-20 years of active conflict, followed by 20 years of fallout. Even if the Imperial Regency decides to not go military, it has to decide what it wants to be "when it grows up". And if it does go to war, it is going to eventually get stonewalled by its surviving enemies (I don't see it beating either League or reaching Regina). Either way, it will end up expanding across the Rift and have to deal with the ramifications of that.
>None of this stops me from being a huge fan of the 1248 setting!
I am glad you enjoyed the setting. But then, I am biased ...
Thanks, Mike, I've scanned some paras with blurred eyes and moved on but
mostly skipped the messages in this thread.
> [Dave: Some 1248 discussion here. Feel free to move on â¦]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> In 1248, there seem to be good/bad versions of every major race and
>> culture.
>
> OK, I totally grant you the whole âgood Solomaniâ and âevil
> Solomaniâ empires. That is 100% true. But for the rest? I dunno. There
> was only one Vilani empire; it got uppity, then got crushed, then
> mellowed. So unless you are counting the single empire has transitioning
> from good to evil (or evil to good), I donât see it. And, while there
> were two primary Zhodani pocket empires explicitly described, neither were
> good or evil. One was traditional and one was very different, but both
> were (at least supposed to be) nominally âgoodâ. They were definitely
> not evil. And the Vargr were the Vargr. There have always been
> âhostileâ Vargr and âfriendlyâ Vargr. None of that is new and it
> should definitely be expected from the Vargr, regardless of setting.
>
> On the Regency front, I can definitely see where you might get that idea
> about the Imperial Regency and the League of Deneb. And, yes, the IR was
> the âbaddieâ of the Spinward States. However, the League of Deneb was
> not necessarily particularly âgoodâ, and the IR was not really evil.
> They were proud and misguided, angry and aggressive, but they were not
> truly evil. It was intended for the two states to contrast each other in
> some interesting ways. With the IR, you had a fairly monolithic approach
> with a fairly unified technology base. With Deneb, it was much more varied
> in both categories. Also, from a leadership perspective, Deneb was much
> nicer, as each world had the freedom to be organized as they saw fit. The
> IR was much more rigid and much less flexible. But, for the general
> population, the IR was probably better to live in. Since the Deneb worlds
> were free to run themselves, all sorts of totalitarian and nasty nonsense
> was able to flourish. With the IR, while the interstellar government was
> autocratic, the world governments were forced to be much more open. The
> average IR citizen probably lived a freer life (in a good way) than a
> typical Deneb citizen. So, while the two empires were intended to contrast
> each other, it was far from a âgoodâ vs âevilâ type contrast.
>
> But you are absolutely correct on the Solomani. It was one âgoodâ
> empire and one âevilâ empire. If they had been given the time to
> produce a Terran sourcebook, then there likely would have been some
> additional nuance added to the story, with various other minor empires (of
> varying small sizes) introduced to add more flavor and character. But the
> emergence of Mongoose Traveller cut 1248 much shorter than desired.
>
> Again, I certainly don't speak for Martin. However, I can speak for
> myself, so can explain anything you want out of the Spinward States or the
> sliver of Terran client states from the Freedom League book.
>
> Mike West
>
>
>
>
The Terran Republic was set up such that it is a civil service bureaucracy that essentially "purges" itself every ten years. The intent of the purges is to ensure that the bureaucracy doesn't become bogged down by bottlenecks, duplication, and incompetents. The one exception is the Prime Minister, a position that traditionally (so far) been filled by individuals who had proven their leadership abilities through being selected to run various government agencies over multiple cycles. In that respect, the upper echelons can be thought of as a meritocracy. There is a Ministry of Religious Affairs, but it essentially exists to give the Priestess of the Faith a seat at all the cabinet meetings and the ear of the Prime Minister. It also has a single power, but its a powerful one--the ability to veto government decisions.
During the Gabree-el era, that meant that she was effectively the real power behind the throne. If the Prime Minister did something that went against the best interest of the Republic (in the opinion of the Priestess of the Faith), or if she had a revelation (psionic vision) that called for immediate action, the Priestess of the Faith could act. This changed somewhat under Shoshanna, with the Priestess of the Faith being a much less a visible symbol of political power, and more of quiet ombudsman for the masses. Indeed as of 1202, Shoshanna had asserted her veto power only once, that being the lead up to the Battle of Ganesh, and then because of the psionic visions she was having regarding the battle.
Note that Terra was my first and only choice as the site where Gabreelism could begin. Before she was Gabree-el, Priestess of The One Faith, "The Prophetess of Terra", St. Gabrielle the Savior, and deified by certain heretics on Prometheus, she was Gabrielle Dahnara, a History professor at the University of Terra, working along side her husband Dassaq, a Theology professor, at the Terra offices of the Searcher for the One Faith. A trained psion (at an underground psionic institute in Alexandra when she was an undergrad), she displayed the ability to see the origin of objects through psionic visions. This talent proved very useful to someone studying Terran history of course, but it wasn't until later that she also discovered she had the ability to see visions of the future as well as the past. This lead to her visions of the Collapse, which gained her notoriety on Terra (and a lot of unwanted attention), and when her visions came true, helped to create the religious figure that is central of the Terran storyline leading up to the New Era.
There, you asked a question, you got drowned in explanation and back story. Need a towel?
Mike wrote:
> The reason is because I just can't trust theocracies. Even if they appear to be benevolent and benign, theocracies just scare the sh** out of me.
"I am a democrat because I believe that no man or group of men is good enough to be trusted with uncontrolled power over others. And the higher the pretensions of such power, the more dangerous I think it both to rulers and to the subjects. Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant a robber baron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point may be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely more because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations.
And since Theocracy is the worst, the nearer any government approaches to Theocracy the worse it will be. A metaphysic held by the rulers with the force of a religion, is a bad sign. It forbids them, like the inquisitor, to admit any grain of truth or good in their opponents, it abrogates the ordinary rules of morality, and it gives a seemingly high, super-personal sanction to all the very ordinary human passions by which, like other men, the rulers will frequently be actuated. In a word, it forbids wholesome doubt. A political programme can never in reality be more than probably right. We never know all the facts about the present and we can only guess the future. To attach to a party programme -- whose highest claim is to reasonable prudence -- the sort of assent which we should reserve for demonstrable theorems, is a kind of intoxication."
- C.S. Lewis
Best. Critique. Of Theocracy. (And Defence of Democracy). Ever.
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
I recommend buying this: Traveller Chronicle 01-13 - Game Designers' Workshop (GDW) | | Traveller: The New Era | Traveller (FASA/GameLords/JG) | The Office of Calendar ComplianceRPGNow.com
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While CoE appears in #10-#13, there is some good Traveller materials to be had in the other issues.