Thread: Re: Battledress history

It may be the case that the Villani, given their canonical tendency to nuke serious opposition, never saw the need to develop battledress, at least doctrinally. Some of their opponents, or maybe even the petty states on their frontiers might have had more call for it.

Eamon

Sent from my iPad

On 21 Apr 2014, at 14:20, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> Are the any Canon references on the history of battle dress? For example, if it was used by the Ziru Sirka or Terran Confederation in the interstellar wars? Given it's appearance at TL 10, I would tend to think the former.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>

I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.

From: [] On Behalf Of Master Uxi
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:20 PM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Battledress history

Are the any Canon references on the history of battle dress? For example, if it was used by the Ziru Sirka or Terran Confederation in the interstellar wars? Given it's appearance at TL 10, I would tend to think the former.

- Sent from my SM-N900T

That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?

Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems.
The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless
small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein).
TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.

It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to
have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in
more imaginative ways.

Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
(though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:

>
>
> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as
> hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more
> general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think
> LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>
>
>
> *From:* [
> ] *On Behalf Of *Master Uxi
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:20 PM
> *To:*
> *Subject:* [Traveller_TNE] Battledress history
>
>
>
>
>
> Are the any Canon references on the history of battle dress? For
> example, if it was used by the Ziru Sirka or Terran Confederation in the
> interstellar wars? Given it's appearance at TL 10, I would tend to think
> the former.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>
>

In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12
(the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available,
even if you have to retcon it in.

On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>
> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>
> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more
> limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which
> is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>
> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but
> to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be
> using it in more imaginative ways.
>
> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <
> <>> wrote:
>
> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably
> rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s
> probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official
> references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till
> TL13.
>
>
>

--
Edward Swatschek -

Dear Folks -

None that I can remember, apart from the generalised history of equipment
development given in Book 4: Mercenary.

Hey, maybe that's a way of retconning those horrible battlepods from T4: say
that the Vilani used them, while the Terrans used battledress and shot them
out of the sky.

"Pull!" <BLAM!> "Gotcha, sucker! Send more pods! Send... more... paramedics!
He he he."

;-)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                   
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:

>
>
> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12
> (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
> if you have to retcon it in.
>
>
> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>
>
>
> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>
> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>
> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to
> have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in
> more imaginative ways.
>
> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as
>> hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more
>> general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think
>> LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Edward Swatschek -
>
>
>

I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>
>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>
>>
>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>
>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>
>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>
>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Edward Swatschek -
>
>

FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now,
but can get a page number later.

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:

>
>
> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's
> together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes
> TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>
>
> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12
>> (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
>> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
>> if you have to retcon it in.
>>
>>
>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>
>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
>> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
>> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
>> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>
>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to
>> have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in
>> more imaginative ways.
>>
>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
>> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
>> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as
>>> hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more
>>> general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think
>>> LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Edward Swatschek -
>>
>>
>

Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:

> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now,
> but can get a page number later.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's
>> together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes
>> TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12
>>> (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
>>> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
>>> if you have to retcon it in.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>
>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
>>> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
>>> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
>>> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>
>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to
>>> have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in
>>> more imaginative ways.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
>>> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
>>> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare
>>>> as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much
>>>> more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I
>>>> think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>
>>>
>>
>

MT Ref Companion definitely is explicit that battledress appears at TL 13
as a specialized form of combat armor. I would interpret that to mean
neither the Ziru Sirka nor Terran Confederation developed battledress as
known in the 3I (though leaves room for some more narrow interpretations
possible that exclude from general proliferation of TL 10 models possible
with FFS) since the same source indicates the Vilani only got to TL 11 and
the Rule of Man to TL 12 with the Third Imperium reaching TL 13 around IY
300 during the Vargr campaigns.

I brought that up since IMTU I had a brief blurb that the Knights of St
George originally had TL 10 model developed from Terran Confederation
(which would see the dust blown off museum suits in the New Era), but maybe
I'll do that backwards... or have the Knights with a modification of a TC
cargo exoskeleton or something and the 3I "discovery" was more of a
rediscovery or reinterpretation of what the IW to ROM era Knights had.

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 6:11 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:

> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>
>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check
>> now, but can get a page number later.
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's
>>> together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes
>>> TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL
>>>> 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
>>>> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
>>>> if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>
>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
>>>> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
>>>> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
>>>> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>
>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but
>>>> to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it
>>>> in more imaginative ways.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
>>>> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
>>>> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare
>>>>> as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much
>>>>> more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I
>>>>> think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>

Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:

>
>
> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>
>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check
>> now, but can get a page number later.
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's
>>> together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes
>>> TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL
>>>> 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
>>>> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
>>>> if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>
>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
>>>> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
>>>> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
>>>> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>
>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but
>>>> to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it
>>>> in more imaginative ways.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
>>>> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
>>>> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare
>>>>> as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much
>>>>> more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I
>>>>> think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>
>>>>
>

I assume you mean something like...

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Gunner-392717625

That. To be honest that's kind of what I see the bulk of A-C tech military dressed in with that being more the TL10-11 stuff and the ODST armor from Halo being more the TL12 end of things.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 6:56 PM, charles popp <> wrote:
>
> Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress
>
>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>
>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>

Lots of gaps in that. I take battledress to be 100% interlocking
coverage. Like plate armor made of crystal iron or superdense alloys.

powered, of course

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 7:12 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:

>
>
> I assume you mean something like...
>
> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Gunner-392717625
>
> That. To be honest that's kind of what I see the bulk of A-C tech
> military dressed in with that being more the TL10-11 stuff and the ODST
> armor from Halo being more the TL12 end of things.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 21, 2014, at 6:56 PM, charles popp <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>
>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check
>>> now, but can get a page number later.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's
>>>> together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes
>>>> TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>
>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL
>>>>> 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
>>>>> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
>>>>> if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>
>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
>>>>> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
>>>>> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
>>>>> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but
>>>>> to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it
>>>>> in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
>>>>> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
>>>>> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare
>>>>>> as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much
>>>>>> more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I
>>>>>> think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>

That's not battle dress, that's unpowered combat armour.

That's kind of stock trooper armour IMO, the scout armour would be lighter, smaller more flexible and assault trooper armour would be bulkier, perhaps even with power assist but not "battle dress".

Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy. The light and medium stuff would be more anthropomorphic, friendly stuff. The heavy battle dress would IMO be shit your pants scary looking stuff that while it's bilaterally symmetrical could never be confused for a person in a dark alley as the lighter stuff could. With the advent of compact gravitic technology you could have some parkour fun in battle dress. 😄

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 7:16 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
> Lots of gaps in that. I take battledress to be 100% interlocking coverage. Like plate armor made of crystal iron or superdense alloys.
>
> powered, of course
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:12 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>
>> I assume you mean something like...
>>
>> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Gunner-392717625
>>
>> That. To be honest that's kind of what I see the bulk of A-C tech military dressed in with that being more the TL10-11 stuff and the ODST armor from Halo being more the TL12 end of things.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 6:56 PM, charles popp <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>
>

I guess size wise I'd rate light battle dress as your standard Ironman armour, medium would be more like the mk1 armour that he built in the cave. Turns an ordinary man into a linebacker or marginally larger. Heavy would be more like the HulkBuster armour from Ironman 3. Adds about 2-3 feet to your height and easily doubles you chest size.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 19:29, DEREK STANLEY <> wrote:
>
> That's not battle dress, that's unpowered combat armour.
>
> That's kind of stock trooper armour IMO, the scout armour would be lighter, smaller more flexible and assault trooper armour would be bulkier, perhaps even with power assist but not "battle dress".
>
> Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy. The light and medium stuff would be more anthropomorphic, friendly stuff. The heavy battle dress would IMO be shit your pants scary looking stuff that while it's bilaterally symmetrical could never be confused for a person in a dark alley as the lighter stuff could. With the advent of compact gravitic technology you could have some parkour fun in battle dress. 😄
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 7:16 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Lots of gaps in that. I take battledress to be 100% interlocking coverage. Like plate armor made of crystal iron or superdense alloys.
>>
>> powered, of course
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:12 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>
>>> I assume you mean something like...
>>>
>>> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Gunner-392717625
>>>
>>> That. To be honest that's kind of what I see the bulk of A-C tech military dressed in with that being more the TL10-11 stuff and the ODST armor from Halo being more the TL12 end of things.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 6:56 PM, charles popp <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>>>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>
>

Oh yeah, light would be iron man around 7-8 ft tall and much bulkier, but
roughly human proportioned. Think somewhere between Shaq & Andre the Giant.
LoL

Heavy like the Heinlein description of a steel hydrocephalic gorilla. Your
hulk buster/igor from IM3 analogy definitely works.

I don't use medium myself other ambiguous intermediary between the two.

I see both with a great helm with fixed neck and rather large gorget to
take head shots without breaking their neck from blunt force trauma.
Neither would be able to turn their head though cameras or turning
shoulders and/or waist...

- Sent from my SM-N900T

That's not battle dress, that's unpowered combat armour.

That's kind of stock trooper armour IMO, the scout armour would be lighter,
smaller more flexible and assault trooper armour would be bulkier, perhaps
even with power assist but not "battle dress".

Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy.
The light and medium stuff would be more anthropomorphic, friendly stuff.
The heavy battle dress would IMO be shit your pants scary looking stuff
that while it's bilaterally symmetrical could never be confused for a
person in a dark alley as the lighter stuff could. With the advent of
compact gravitic technology you could have some parkour fun in battle
dress. 😄

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 21, 2014, at 7:16 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:

Lots of gaps in that. I take battledress to be 100% interlocking
coverage. Like plate armor made of crystal iron or superdense alloys.

powered, of course

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Apr 21, 2014 7:12 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:

>
>
> I assume you mean something like...
>
> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Gunner-392717625
>
> That. To be honest that's kind of what I see the bulk of A-C tech
> military dressed in with that being more the TL10-11 stuff and the ODST
> armor from Halo being more the TL12 end of things.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 21, 2014, at 6:56 PM, charles popp <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>
>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check
>>> now, but can get a page number later.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's
>>>> together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes
>>>> TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>
>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL
>>>>> 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies -
>>>>> battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even
>>>>> if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>
>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it
>>>>> seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited
>>>>> (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very
>>>>> Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but
>>>>> to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it
>>>>> in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional
>>>>> and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets
>>>>> (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare
>>>>>> as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much
>>>>>> more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I
>>>>>> think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>

Deviantart.com is such an awesome place to go looking for visual design ideas. Plus most of the old traveller artists have sites there where they post old and new art.

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 7:56 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
> Oh yeah, light would be iron man around 7-8 ft tall and much bulkier, but roughly human proportioned. Think somewhere between Shaq & Andre the Giant. LoL
>
> Heavy like the Heinlein description of a steel hydrocephalic gorilla. Your hulk buster/igor from IM3 analogy definitely works.
>
> I don't use medium myself other ambiguous intermediary between the two.
>
> I see both with a great helm with fixed neck and rather large gorget to take head shots without breaking their neck from blunt force trauma. Neither would be able to turn their head though cameras or turning shoulders and/or waist...
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>
> That's not battle dress, that's unpowered combat armour.
>
> That's kind of stock trooper armour IMO, the scout armour would be lighter, smaller more flexible and assault trooper armour would be bulkier, perhaps even with power assist but not "battle dress".
>
> Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy. The light and medium stuff would be more anthropomorphic, friendly stuff. The heavy battle dress would IMO be shit your pants scary looking stuff that while it's bilaterally symmetrical could never be confused for a person in a dark alley as the lighter stuff could. With the advent of compact gravitic technology you could have some parkour fun in battle dress. 😄
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 7:16 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Lots of gaps in that. I take battledress to be 100% interlocking coverage. Like plate armor made of crystal iron or superdense alloys.
>>
>> powered, of course
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:12 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>
>>> I assume you mean something like...
>>>
>>> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Gunner-392717625
>>>
>>> That. To be honest that's kind of what I see the bulk of A-C tech military dressed in with that being more the TL10-11 stuff and the ODST armor from Halo being more the TL12 end of things.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 6:56 PM, charles popp <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Plus you have to add in Combat Armor,ie unpowered Battledress
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>>>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Yes, I like this guy's work a lot: http://vombavr.deviantart.com/art/WHITE-OPS-280642612 http://vombavr.deviantart.com/art/WHITE-OPS-280642612



Back to Trav Battle Dress, MegaTrav Journal had some excellent stuff about Battle Dress. MTJ#1 had a great article by Tom Peters. In that article, Peters implies that it is only the well-known Imperial Battle Dress that is TL13+. He states that lower-tech cousins include the TL11 industrial heavy loader, the bulkier TL10 battlesuit, and the TL13 Scout walkabout suit. MTJ#1 detailed Commando/Cavalry Battle Dress, Imperial Assault Battle Dress and the Scout walkabout suit. MTJ#2 had Forward Observer Battle Dress (TL13).

Dear Folks -

Derek wrote:
>Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy

Light:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/fwdobsbd.pdf

Medium:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/basicbd.pdf
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/comcavbd.pdf

Arse-kicking-heavy (aka "RUN! No, it's too late, the Marines are here!"):
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/impmarbd.pdf

;-)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

Dear Folks -

Speaking of deviant-art, don't forget this classic by the late, great Bryan Gibson:
http://sabakakrazny.deviantart.com/art/Battledress0001-350261387

----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

These are great write ups are great my only issue is that the battledress all looks the same. There’s no physical difference between the Light and the Heavy, it’s kind of like sticking a V8 and a 4 cylinder version of the same car next to one another and asking people on the street to tell the difference without opening the hood. Now if you put a Fiat500 next to a Corvette and ask people to tell the difference it’s pretty easy.

I also agree with Uxi’s thought that they’re unlikely to have movable heads after you get out of the light dress. The neck is a serious weakness as is that great silly thing sticking out the back of the head. That’s a point of leverage that people will exploit.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o7Z0t_j9ytg/TVY9jn0X6mI/AAAAAAAAAEs/2b4wtb7nhoQ/s1600/Merkava-3-latrun-4.jpg

I used to work with a guy who was an Israeli tanker back in the 80’s. So what’s up with the balls and chains, turns out if you get an RPG in that little gap, which isn’t nearly as hard as it sounds, you can pop the turret right off the tank.

http://www.digitalrenegade.net/download/p_vehicles/2002/P8030004.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img703/2918/boohoohoo.jpg

Same thing with these, the stock version of the M60 Patton has that little cupola up on the top of the main turret, the IDF version has removed that turret. Same reason. If you get a round in there you can pop the cupola off which effectively cuts the tank commander in half. You can figure out where the lower half of him goes.

From: [] On Behalf Of David Jaques-Watson
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 AM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Battledress history

Dear Folks -

Derek wrote:
>Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy

Light:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/fwdobsbd.pdf

Medium:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/basicbd.pdf
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/comcavbd.pdf

Arse-kicking-heavy (aka "RUN! No, it's too late, the Marines are here!"):
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/impmarbd.pdf

;-)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

There are trade offs in many designs that are predicated on tactics and
available weapons more than physics... These are abstract and not fully
realized in a design system like FFS as much as a logistics system of the
setting.

The M60 cupola came from the M48. Compare the TC position at the machine
gun on the M47 for ex... he is still going to be chopped in half and is
also vulnerable to every rifle and pistol and low flying bird. That cupola
is great for visibility and protecting from small arms while still being
able to clear and load the tank commander's weapon but obviously exposed
for AT weapons, as well as other tanks. When they were designing it, the
pros were fixing other non engineering tactical weaknesses. The cons only
became apparent in hindsight after a bunch of TCs were killed in them...
but aren't really weaknesses in historical context. The IDF solution
removes capability that they may not need, but is quite subjective.

Similarly, the turret ring and mantlet are always weak spots. The latter
was initially way too obvious on the early models of the Leopard 2, for ex.
If the Germans ever went to war anymore, they would have learned that the
hard way. Like the decision to armor the front vs side/rear/top/bottom.

Something that's all things to all people becomes a mess we see in modern
procurement.

It might be relatively easy to get an RPG in that slot in theory, but it's
a different animal when you're going to if you're going to eat coax fire
right after you shoot, when that tank's wingman spots your back blast. 10
years of COIN showed us that for all its weaknesses in MOUT, the Abrams is
a dangerous target to attack and that success is anything but guaranteed.
The next model will almost certainly integrate TUSK to some degree...
Hopefully they don't go TOO far fighting the last war and forget the main
purpose of an MBT.

- Sent from my SM-N900T

These are great write ups are great my only issue is that the battledress
all looks the same. There’s no physical difference between the Light and
the Heavy, it’s kind of like sticking a V8 and a 4 cylinder version of the
same car next to one another and asking people on the street to tell the
difference without opening the hood. Now if you put a Fiat500 next to a
Corvette and ask people to tell the difference it’s pretty easy.

I also agree with Uxi’s thought that they’re unlikely to have movable heads
after you get out of the light dress. The neck is a serious weakness as is
that great silly thing sticking out the back of the head. That’s a point
of leverage that people will exploit.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o7Z0t_j9ytg/TVY9jn0X6mI/AAAAAAAAAEs/2b4wtb7nhoQ/s1600/Merkava-3-latrun-4.jpg

I used to work with a guy who was an Israeli tanker back in the 80’s. So
what’s up with the balls and chains, turns out if you get an RPG in that
little gap, which isn’t nearly as hard as it sounds, you can pop the turret
right off the tank.

http://www.digitalrenegade.net/download/p_vehicles/2002/P8030004.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img703/2918/boohoohoo.jpg

Same thing with these, the stock version of the M60 Patton has that little
cupola up on the top of the main turret, the IDF version has removed that
turret. Same reason. If you get a round in there you can pop the cupola
off which effectively cuts the tank commander in half. You can figure out
where the lower half of him goes.

From: []
On Behalf Of David Jaques-Watson
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 AM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Battledress history

Dear Folks -

Derek wrote:
>Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy

Light:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/fwdobsbd.pdf

Medium:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/basicbd.pdf
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/comcavbd.pdf

Arse-kicking-heavy (aka "RUN! No, it's too late, the Marines are here!"):
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/impmarbd.pdf

;-)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

Going with TNE, Path of Tears has TL10 Battledress being used extensively - both Kide and Keipes have troops equipped with it.

Eamon

Sent from my iPad

On 22 Apr 2014, at 10:30, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> MT Ref Companion definitely is explicit that battledress appears at TL 13 as a specialized form of combat armor. I would interpret that to mean neither the Ziru Sirka nor Terran Confederation developed battledress as known in the 3I (though leaves room for some more narrow interpretations possible that exclude from general proliferation of TL 10 models possible with FFS) since the same source indicates the Vilani only got to TL 11 and the Rule of Man to TL 12 with the Third Imperium reaching TL 13 around IY 300 during the Vargr campaigns.
>
> I brought that up since IMTU I had a brief blurb that the Knights of St George originally had TL 10 model developed from Terran Confederation (which would see the dust blown off museum suits in the New Era), but maybe I'll do that backwards... or have the Knights with a modification of a TC cargo exoskeleton or something and the 3I "discovery" was more of a rediscovery or reinterpretation of what the IW to ROM era Knights had.
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
> On Apr 21, 2014 6:11 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>
> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>>
>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>
>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>
>>
>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>
>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>
>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>
>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Edward Swatschek -
>
>

5am brain barely funtional... Isn't their bd relic stuff the TED's are using?

Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 29, 2014, at 4:13 AM, Eamon Watters <> wrote:
>
> Going with TNE, Path of Tears has TL10 Battledress being used extensively - both Kide and Keipes have troops equipped with it.
>
> Eamon
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 22 Apr 2014, at 10:30, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> MT Ref Companion definitely is explicit that battledress appears at TL 13 as a specialized form of combat armor. I would interpret that to mean neither the Ziru Sirka nor Terran Confederation developed battledress as known in the 3I (though leaves room for some more narrow interpretations possible that exclude from general proliferation of TL 10 models possible with FFS) since the same source indicates the Vilani only got to TL 11 and the Rule of Man to TL 12 with the Third Imperium reaching TL 13 around IY 300 during the Vargr campaigns.
>>
>> I brought that up since IMTU I had a brief blurb that the Knights of St George originally had TL 10 model developed from Terran Confederation (which would see the dust blown off museum suits in the New Era), but maybe I'll do that backwards... or have the Knights with a modification of a TC cargo exoskeleton or something and the 3I "discovery" was more of a rediscovery or reinterpretation of what the IW to ROM era Knights had.
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 6:11 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Derek Stanley
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
>

Relic TL10 stuff.

Sent from my iPad

On 29 Apr 2014, at 20:59, DEREK STANLEY <> wrote:

> 5am brain barely funtional... Isn't their bd relic stuff the TED's are using?
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 29, 2014, at 4:13 AM, Eamon Watters <> wrote:
>
>>
>> Going with TNE, Path of Tears has TL10 Battledress being used extensively - both Kide and Keipes have troops equipped with it.
>>
>> Eamon
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 22 Apr 2014, at 10:30, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> MT Ref Companion definitely is explicit that battledress appears at TL 13 as a specialized form of combat armor. I would interpret that to mean neither the Ziru Sirka nor Terran Confederation developed battledress as known in the 3I (though leaves room for some more narrow interpretations possible that exclude from general proliferation of TL 10 models possible with FFS) since the same source indicates the Vilani only got to TL 11 and the Rule of Man to TL 12 with the Third Imperium reaching TL 13 around IY 300 during the Vargr campaigns.
>>>
>>> I brought that up since IMTU I had a brief blurb that the Knights of St George originally had TL 10 model developed from Terran Confederation (which would see the dust blown off museum suits in the New Era), but maybe I'll do that backwards... or have the Knights with a modification of a TC cargo exoskeleton or something and the 3I "discovery" was more of a rediscovery or reinterpretation of what the IW to ROM era Knights had.
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 6:11 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>> Mk 1 mod 1 pg 41
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:50 PM, "Master Uxi" <> wrote:
>>> FFS skeletons with an example start at TL 10. At work so can't check now, but can get a page number later.
>>>
>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014 4:48 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got the Big Blue Book, BBB, that combines a bunch of the LBB's together and it lists TL13, D-tech. I'm fairly certain, TNE / FF&S makes TL12, C-tech, battle dress available.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What books and/or tables are you seeing that in for MT?
>>>>
>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:02 PM, "Edward Swatschek" <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In CT/MT battledress was introduced at TL 13. T4 introduces it at TL 12 (the setting's max TL). Ultimately, I think the Rule of Cool applies - battledress is a Traveller staple, so battledress will be available, even if you have to retcon it in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2014-04-21, 9:23, Master Uxi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be an interesting tidbit. Anyone have the LBB to check?
>>>>>
>>>>> Battledress is really limited in its utility before TL 12 or so, it seems. The penalties are really high and the damage they deal more limited (unless small 0.1 to 1-2 kt nuclear warheads are in play which is very Heinlein). TL 14-15 start looking more Iron Man.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem more consistent for the Vilani to have battledress, but to have it in a doctrinally stratified role while the TC could be using it in more imaginative ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the Vilani used meteoric assault, for example, but factional and/or bureaux rivalries wouldn't allow it flight, or even jump jets (though any ability at stuck would be very limited by TL anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 7:58 AM, "D. Stanley" <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d imagine that they all had it, up to about TL13 it’s probably rare as hell, elite assault troops and such. Beyond that it’s probably much more general issue. But I’m unaware of any official references to it. I think LBB doesn’t introduce Battle Dress till TL13.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Edward Swatschek -
>>>
>
>