There are trade offs in many designs that are predicated on tactics and
available weapons more than physics... These are abstract and not fully
realized in a design system like FFS as much as a logistics system of the
setting.
The M60 cupola came from the M48. Compare the TC position at the machine
gun on the M47 for ex... he is still going to be chopped in half and is
also vulnerable to every rifle and pistol and low flying bird. That cupola
is great for visibility and protecting from small arms while still being
able to clear and load the tank commander's weapon but obviously exposed
for AT weapons, as well as other tanks. When they were designing it, the
pros were fixing other non engineering tactical weaknesses. The cons only
became apparent in hindsight after a bunch of TCs were killed in them...
but aren't really weaknesses in historical context. The IDF solution
removes capability that they may not need, but is quite subjective.
Similarly, the turret ring and mantlet are always weak spots. The latter
was initially way too obvious on the early models of the Leopard 2, for ex.
If the Germans ever went to war anymore, they would have learned that the
hard way. Like the decision to armor the front vs side/rear/top/bottom.
Something that's all things to all people becomes a mess we see in modern
procurement.
It might be relatively easy to get an RPG in that slot in theory, but it's
a different animal when you're going to if you're going to eat coax fire
right after you shoot, when that tank's wingman spots your back blast. 10
years of COIN showed us that for all its weaknesses in MOUT, the Abrams is
a dangerous target to attack and that success is anything but guaranteed.
The next model will almost certainly integrate TUSK to some degree...
Hopefully they don't go TOO far fighting the last war and forget the main
purpose of an MBT.
- Sent from my SM-N900T
These are great write ups are great my only issue is that the battledress
all looks the same. There’s no physical difference between the Light and
the Heavy, it’s kind of like sticking a V8 and a 4 cylinder version of the
same car next to one another and asking people on the street to tell the
difference without opening the hood. Now if you put a Fiat500 next to a
Corvette and ask people to tell the difference it’s pretty easy.
I also agree with Uxi’s thought that they’re unlikely to have movable heads
after you get out of the light dress. The neck is a serious weakness as is
that great silly thing sticking out the back of the head. That’s a point
of leverage that people will exploit.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o7Z0t_j9ytg/TVY9jn0X6mI/AAAAAAAAAEs/2b4wtb7nhoQ/s1600/Merkava-3-latrun-4.jpg
I used to work with a guy who was an Israeli tanker back in the 80’s. So
what’s up with the balls and chains, turns out if you get an RPG in that
little gap, which isn’t nearly as hard as it sounds, you can pop the turret
right off the tank.
http://www.digitalrenegade.net/download/p_vehicles/2002/P8030004.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img703/2918/boohoohoo.jpg
Same thing with these, the stock version of the M60 Patton has that little
cupola up on the top of the main turret, the IDF version has removed that
turret. Same reason. If you get a round in there you can pop the cupola
off which effectively cuts the tank commander in half. You can figure out
where the lower half of him goes.
From: []
On Behalf Of David Jaques-Watson
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 AM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Battledress history
Dear Folks -
Derek wrote:
>Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy
Light:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/fwdobsbd.pdf
Medium:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/basicbd.pdf
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/comcavbd.pdf
Arse-kicking-heavy (aka "RUN! No, it's too late, the Marines are here!"):
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/impmarbd.pdf
;-)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
available weapons more than physics... These are abstract and not fully
realized in a design system like FFS as much as a logistics system of the
setting.
The M60 cupola came from the M48. Compare the TC position at the machine
gun on the M47 for ex... he is still going to be chopped in half and is
also vulnerable to every rifle and pistol and low flying bird. That cupola
is great for visibility and protecting from small arms while still being
able to clear and load the tank commander's weapon but obviously exposed
for AT weapons, as well as other tanks. When they were designing it, the
pros were fixing other non engineering tactical weaknesses. The cons only
became apparent in hindsight after a bunch of TCs were killed in them...
but aren't really weaknesses in historical context. The IDF solution
removes capability that they may not need, but is quite subjective.
Similarly, the turret ring and mantlet are always weak spots. The latter
was initially way too obvious on the early models of the Leopard 2, for ex.
If the Germans ever went to war anymore, they would have learned that the
hard way. Like the decision to armor the front vs side/rear/top/bottom.
Something that's all things to all people becomes a mess we see in modern
procurement.
It might be relatively easy to get an RPG in that slot in theory, but it's
a different animal when you're going to if you're going to eat coax fire
right after you shoot, when that tank's wingman spots your back blast. 10
years of COIN showed us that for all its weaknesses in MOUT, the Abrams is
a dangerous target to attack and that success is anything but guaranteed.
The next model will almost certainly integrate TUSK to some degree...
Hopefully they don't go TOO far fighting the last war and forget the main
purpose of an MBT.
- Sent from my SM-N900T
These are great write ups are great my only issue is that the battledress
all looks the same. There’s no physical difference between the Light and
the Heavy, it’s kind of like sticking a V8 and a 4 cylinder version of the
same car next to one another and asking people on the street to tell the
difference without opening the hood. Now if you put a Fiat500 next to a
Corvette and ask people to tell the difference it’s pretty easy.
I also agree with Uxi’s thought that they’re unlikely to have movable heads
after you get out of the light dress. The neck is a serious weakness as is
that great silly thing sticking out the back of the head. That’s a point
of leverage that people will exploit.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o7Z0t_j9ytg/TVY9jn0X6mI/AAAAAAAAAEs/2b4wtb7nhoQ/s1600/Merkava-3-latrun-4.jpg
I used to work with a guy who was an Israeli tanker back in the 80’s. So
what’s up with the balls and chains, turns out if you get an RPG in that
little gap, which isn’t nearly as hard as it sounds, you can pop the turret
right off the tank.
http://www.digitalrenegade.net/download/p_vehicles/2002/P8030004.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img703/2918/boohoohoo.jpg
Same thing with these, the stock version of the M60 Patton has that little
cupola up on the top of the main turret, the IDF version has removed that
turret. Same reason. If you get a round in there you can pop the cupola
off which effectively cuts the tank commander in half. You can figure out
where the lower half of him goes.
From: []
On Behalf Of David Jaques-Watson
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:15 AM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Battledress history
Dear Folks -
Derek wrote:
>Battle dress would likely come in 3 versions as well light, medium, heavy
Light:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/fwdobsbd.pdf
Medium:
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/basicbd.pdf
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/comcavbd.pdf
Arse-kicking-heavy (aka "RUN! No, it's too late, the Marines are here!"):
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/impmarbd.pdf
;-)
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"