Thread: What would TNE have been like without the GDW House System?

12 posts.



This question came up in a design discussion with Marc Miller, Robert Eaglestone and myself the other day, and I wanted to see what the TNE experts would have to say.

Imagine it's 1992, and you're designing T3... All of the same elements that create TNE are there, except it's D6, not the GDW House System. Does much change (other than the die type)?

For example, it's my belief that Traveller was already heading towards FF&S -- the interest in building Traveller from the ground up with the Striker materials spread across it, was already there. It's partially in MegaTraveller.

It's just idle speculation, but Marc is interested in your thoughts.



On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:17:52 -0000, "Donald McKinney"
<> wrote:

>For example, it's my belief that Traveller was already heading towards FF&S -- the interest in building Traveller from the ground up with the Striker materials spread across it, was already there. It's partially in MegaTraveller.
>
>It's just idle speculation, but Marc is interested in your thoughts.

Actually it should be possible to play Traveller with MT rules and TNE
FF&S designs. I knocked up some rules a while ago how to use TNE
firearms in MT
http://www.travellerfreeport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=33:how-to-use-tne-small-arms-in-a-mt-driven-system&catid=13:house-rules&Itemid=31

Most other items should also be useable. Even a personal hit location
system. One of the best things about the TNE rules are the scaling of
damage so that you can actually fire a FGMP at a starship and get an
idea of what kind of damage it may do. In CT/MgT/T5 (as I read them
now) and to a degree in MT this is not possible. MT got hitpoints for
many the components in both vehicles and starship, but they are rarely
used and poorly explained. The TNE/T2K way is much more slicker.

I feel that T5 should take this route rather than the route it is now
taking.



Donald McKinney wrote:
> This question came up in a design discussion with Marc Miller, Robert Eaglestone and myself the other day, and I wanted to see what the TNE experts would have to say.
>
> Imagine it's 1992, and you're designing T3... All of the same elements that create TNE are there, except it's D6, not the GDW House System. Does much change (other than the die type)?
>
> For example, it's my belief that Traveller was already heading towards FF&S -- the interest in building Traveller from the ground up with the Striker materials spread across it, was already there. It's partially in MegaTraveller.
>
> It's just idle speculation, but Marc is interested in your thoughts.
>
>
It's my feeling that even had GDW not gone to a T2K-based system with a
d20, it would still have looked quite similar at the base. The 'other'
in-house SF system of the time was 2300AD, which used a d10 based
version of the UTP used in MT for task resolution. Thus, I think we'd
have seen a version of MT's task system, but with elements from 2300AD
(and thus T2K) - linear armour values expressed in dice of damage, and
T2K's combat engine or 2300ADs. We'd certainly have seen MT's design
system cleaned up and done as FF&S - it was just too many not quite
compatible systems glommed together to continue the way it was. It can't
see space combat remaining on a HG system, either - it just wasn't
interesting at the level of a PC party with a single small ship, and
wasn't integrated into the rest of the system.

Overall, aside from some detail differences in the combat system I think
the only significant changes would be the use of MT's task system, and
the use of semi-random skill assignment per term rather than selecting
skills from a list.



I'll take a turn and chime in on this one.
I agree HG rules were never player friendly, and only remotely useful
to GMs designing ships from the ground up. TNEs FF&S was perhaps the
pinnacle of a gearheaders delight. It worked well in the design process,
actually making the ships seem like an even more vital and living part of
the game, but the combat system for starships in TNE was cumbersome to put
it lightly, and brilliant lances did little to resolve it. The inherent
issue wasn't the dice standards in play, it was damage resolution in
general. There was brilliance in making damage directionally based, but
calculating the damage points to specific subsystems was a nightmare. A
simplified system could have been much more useful in that regard; as in cg
lifters on a 100tn ship have X for hitpoints, with a tech level modifier for
higher tech ships. (superior redundancy and damage control subroutines.)
with a simplified hit point calculation standardized for ship sizes. With
damage points standardized to size and tech level, a simplified damage
allocation chart similar to that used in star fleet battles could have been
a universal tool for space combat. that is a workable path to being able to
maintain a D6 system in an otherwise complicated aspect of the game. The
damage calculation of lasers, while not exactly friendly to the average
player, were no obstacle to an unmitigated gearhead such as myself.
I am at a cointoss as to which system I prefered for space based
movement, Brilliant Lances or another game system called Full Thrust, by
ground zero games. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Thrust>

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Rupert Boleyn <> wrote:

>
>
> Donald McKinney wrote:
> > This question came up in a design discussion with Marc Miller, Robert
> Eaglestone and myself the other day, and I wanted to see what the TNE
> experts would have to say.
> >
> > Imagine it's 1992, and you're designing T3... All of the same elements
> that create TNE are there, except it's D6, not the GDW House System. Does
> much change (other than the die type)?
> >
> > For example, it's my belief that Traveller was already heading towards
> FF&S -- the interest in building Traveller from the ground up with the
> Striker materials spread across it, was already there. It's partially in
> MegaTraveller.
> >
> > It's just idle speculation, but Marc is interested in your thoughts.
> >
> >
> It's my feeling that even had GDW not gone to a T2K-based system with a
> d20, it would still have looked quite similar at the base. The 'other'
> in-house SF system of the time was 2300AD, which used a d10 based
> version of the UTP used in MT for task resolution. Thus, I think we'd
> have seen a version of MT's task system, but with elements from 2300AD
> (and thus T2K) - linear armour values expressed in dice of damage, and
> T2K's combat engine or 2300ADs. We'd certainly have seen MT's design
> system cleaned up and done as FF&S - it was just too many not quite
> compatible systems glommed together to continue the way it was. It can't
> see space combat remaining on a HG system, either - it just wasn't
> interesting at the level of a PC party with a single small ship, and
> wasn't integrated into the rest of the system.
>
> Overall, aside from some detail differences in the combat system I think
> the only significant changes would be the use of MT's task system, and
> the use of semi-random skill assignment per term rather than selecting
> skills from a list.
>
>
>

--
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal one hundred megawatt
laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some
people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his
SMITE button for our fire control system"


On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 07:17, Donald McKinney <>wrote:

> This question came up in a design discussion with Marc Miller, Robert
> Eaglestone and myself the other day, and I wanted to see what the TNE
> experts would have to say.
>
> Imagine it's 1992, and you're designing T3... All of the same elements that
> create TNE are there, except it's D6, not the GDW House System. Does much
> change (other than the die type)?

Not much really. Character generation in TNE and a lot of the feel of
earlier editions without the fiction of the die roll.

> For example, it's my belief that Traveller was already heading towards FF&S
> -- the interest in building Traveller from the ground up with the Striker
> materials spread across it, was already there. It's partially in
> MegaTraveller.

Partially!?! Most of the howlers in MT where because of Striker. The crowd
working on the technical aspects (Engineering constraints mostly) had no
clue of what the units they were throwing around interrelated to each other.
To make matters even worse they failed the scaling test, starships were a
seeming afterthought.

Actually from what I have seen of T5 and MgT, the MT mistakes are being made
all over again in new editions.

One word, Scale.

The other thought is ditch a direct equation of real world units, while
knowing them and using them to guide your end desions is a good thing. Using
them and producing Howlers a'la MT is a very bad thing.

--
Evyn


--- In , Roger Malmstein <starwolf@...> wrote:
> I feel that T5 should take this route rather than the route it is now
> taking.

I have to ask (its in the job description)...

What exactly is wrong with the route T5 is taking now?



--- In , Evyn MacDude <infojunky@...> wrote:
> Actually from what I have seen of T5 and MgT, the MT mistakes are being made
> all over again in new editions.

(I really can't help myself here)

Hmm... again, I have to ask, for T5 -- what MT mistakes are being repeated?



On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 03:33, Donald McKinney <>wrote:

> --- In , Evyn MacDude <infojunky@...> wrote:
> > Actually from what I have seen of T5 and MgT, the MT mistakes are being
> made
> > all over again in new editions.
>
> (I really can't help myself here)
>
> Hmm... again, I have to ask, for T5 -- what MT mistakes are being repeated?

Right off the bat, the standard drives being linear then none linear at an
arbitrary point. As well as the odd roundings in the performance table. This
one of the problems with MgT, but that goes as supposedly MgT is based off
of a subset of T5.

I Haven't quite set down an perused the playtest doc in a whiles, but in its
fragmentary form it didn't match up with the other materials in the playtest
doc very well.

But as i have said I am treating T5 as a toolkit. using only what is
necessary for my games discarding the drek.

One of the big issues that FF&S had was there was never a good example of
what the standards for electronics where for none TNE commercial ships.

The biggest issue I have is scaling, with that I should explain. There have
been the traditional gaps in Traveller, most notably with
vehicles/starships.

Ok, my brain just seized, I will get back to this......
--
Evyn


On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:32:14 -0000, "Donald McKinney"
<> wrote:

>--- In , Roger Malmstein <starwolf@...> wrote:
>> I feel that T5 should take this route rather than the route it is now
>> taking.
>
>I have to ask (its in the job description)...
>
>What exactly is wrong with the route T5 is taking now?
>
>
I can't get into details as that would violate the rules for the
closed T5 board on CotI.

But I don't like the way armor is handled. How many cm/armor points
are armor (UCP)factor 2? It sure as hell aint 2 when compared to other
weapons as FGMP or a tank cannon.And the ridiculous PP fuel
consumption. I don't even think MT had this poor fuel duration
compared to the fuel volume. And TNE uses a fraction of that for a
whole year in the same ship design (same tonnage and maneuver rating).
It is just too much of HG.



Getting back to the points I was at earlier.

Issues with T5 in contrast with FF&S.

Drives, why do drive get less efficient with size? The is a odd break point
where the size of each drive doubles in increment per performance. MgT aped
this to no discernible reason.

The tech level enhancements, in T5 the totally make standard drives not
standards.

Overclocking WTF is up with this? It in no way makes any sense. Except
answering the need for jump fuel. In a lot of ways it makes previous jump
procedures defunct.

But the biggest issue i have still is scale, vehicles, smallcraft and small
starships should/could be built from the same system. Large ships should
have a grosser system a'la High Guard.

--
Evyn


--- In , Evyn MacDude <infojunky@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 03:33, Donald McKinney <don.mckinney@...>wrote:
>
> > --- In , Evyn MacDude <infojunky@> wrote:
> > > Actually from what I have seen of T5 and MgT, the MT mistakes are being
> > made
> > > all over again in new editions.
> >
> > (I really can't help myself here)
> >
> > Hmm... again, I have to ask, for T5 -- what MT mistakes are being repeated?

Ok, you are complaining about the real T5 (not those old docs on the internet), so I'm going to ask for a favor.

Can you e-mail me (at ) with an indepth "all the issues I have with T5"? No point in taking a lot of time on a TNE group discussing T5.

We're not past the point where we cannot deal with the issues you're going to raise, and since I'm the "HG" guy on the T5 development team, if you can explain it to me, you've explained it to the right guy.

And thanks for giving us honest feedback. That I appreciate.



--- In , Roger Malmstein <starwolf@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:32:14 -0000, "Donald McKinney"
> <don.mckinney@...> wrote:
>
> >--- In , Roger Malmstein <starwolf@> wrote:
> >> I feel that T5 should take this route rather than the route it is now
> >> taking.
> >
> >I have to ask (its in the job description)...
> >
> >What exactly is wrong with the route T5 is taking now?

I'm going to tell you what I told Evyn (and thank you also for keeping Marc's request). Can you e-mail me (at ) with an indepth "all the issues I have with T5"? No point in taking a lot of time on a TNE group discussing T5.

We're not past the point where we cannot deal with the issues you're going to raise, and since I'm the "HG" guy on the T5 development team, if you can explain it to me, you've explained it to the right guy.

And thanks for giving us honest feedback. That I appreciate.

As I've been working on the TNE errata, I'm starting to appreciate a game I have in the past disregarded. It really did try to fix some big holes in MT, and with FFS, it finished the MT work of Striker-izing the whole game. That needs to be in T5.