I haven't been on the TML in a decade, there was at the time so much bile and hatred directed towards anyone who liked anything TNE it just seemed pointless to attend. TNE seemed to take a lot of heat for things that were beyond it's control, the down turn of the RPG and the birth of card games, fantasy MMOs, the collapse of GDW, the Rebellion, Virus... Okay that last thing was totally on TNE.
The hobby shop RPG universe went through a pretty horrible patch there.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 10, 2014, at 8:11 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ---In , <nolan@...> wrote :
>
> I'd love to see MJD write more TNE stuff. 1200 or 1248 (but especially 1200).He told me he'd received a surprising amount of very angry mail over both 1200 and 1248 stuff. What a shame people are such jerks!
>
> ====================
>
> There were aspects about 1248 that I thought were implausible but no worse than a lot of other stuff in the various versions of the settings. I liked what MJD did a lot.
>
> I'm sorry to hear that he was hassled for it. It reflects badly on the Traveller fan base that they would so angrily denounce people and game systems. I've been flamed on the TML and stay clear of it.
>
> Matt
>
On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 8:39 PM, DEREK STANLEY [Traveller_TNE]
<> wrote:
>
>
> I haven't been on the TML in a decade, there was at the time so much bile
> and hatred directed towards anyone who liked anything TNE it just seemed
> pointless to attend.
>
When was that.... Shit that is disingenuous, It's Traveller online fandom,
it was always like that then the bitching subsided and some of the most
amusing tech designs got rolled out. In a lot of ways this list here
recently has been sounding like what you have been complaining about there.
And yet the TML abides...... Come on back lets see what y'all can do...
> TNE seemed to take a lot of heat for things that were beyond it's
> control, the down turn of the RPG and the birth of card games, fantasy
> MMOs, the collapse of GDW, the Rebellion, Virus... Okay that last thing was
> totally on TNE.
>
TNE has a strong flavor, and you have to like the game that it pitched.
Then there was the bit about the game changing incomprehensibly with the
edition change (A lot like the changeover from CT to MT, wanna here me
bitch get me started on the abortion that was MT game mechanic wise).
Though to be honest maybe people haven't been reading what was going on in
those last few issues of challenge and the final folio adventures and book
of MT.
Shit where was I, Oh, yes the favorite pastime of the Online fanbase is to
Bitch about edition x.
> The hobby shop RPG universe went through a pretty horrible patch there.
>
Yes it did.
And don't get me wrong I always loved me some TNE, it laid the groundwork
in official Game Mechanics and the related to run the weird sorts of games
I enjoy with minimal pain in the form of writing my own rules... (Funny
thing is that MgT has a butt load of that too)
Well if you want to assign blame...from most to least:
1. GDW - They developed the wrong products like Dangerous Journeys, they were to slow to try to go digital, they had a collectable card game based on Traveller handed to them and turned it down, they started screwing their long time freelancers, the list is long.
2. The Rise of Magic: The Gathering - It was a craze that killed many game stores and distributors, not just game companies.
3. Fantasy MMOs and other computer games - They hurt more than RPGs, they also hurt tabletop wargaming in a major way, GDW's other main product line.
4. Decisions made regarding the Traveller storyline - I still have this picture of old time Traveller players doing their Charlton Heston impersonations pounding the sand and curses GDW for blowing everything up. The Rebellion came out of no where, wasn't sufficiently justified in subsequent publications, wasn't compelling nor realistic. Let's face it, if the Rebellion had to take place, it should have wrapped up in a few sourcebooks (at most) covering several years in which the various factions within the Imperium dwindled down through warfare and diplomacy to just a couple and then in the final shootout someone gets iced at Capital and then we move on. Mind you, the move to the House System should have still eventually taken place, since it makes a heck of a lot more sense for Traveller and Twilight/Merc: 2000 to share a common RPG system and have the staff concentrate on developing stuff based off that than keep two totally different sets of
mechanics going. Therefore TNE sourcebooks would start out with a revitalized Third Imperium, and then the Empress Wave comes with a bit of havoc in the Spinward Marches, and perhaps the rumblings of a Second Solomani Rim War.
5. The players - The "old guard" players didn't like the storyline choices, but in a world where they were a given, you roll with them and do what you want with the game on your own time. That was my approach and I found that I enjoyed writing for TNE very much and eventually ran my own TNE campaigns with friends--we gave it a chance and liked it. Unfortunately you had a large faction that did everything they could to sabotage the Traveller product line by withholding their support, and bad mouthing TNE, ranting about how they were never going to buy TNE sourcebooks and how other people shouldn't either. In effect, they were rooting for GDW to fail. While they weren't the biggest reason that GDW shut down, they sure as heck didn't help.
Oh and...locally here the game store as we knew it almost died. There are more game stores here in 2014 however than there were 10 years ago, but things have not nor will they ever be like they were c. 1994.
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 2:33 AM, Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE]
<> wrote:
>
>
> Well if you want to assign blame...from most to least:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> 4. Decisions made regarding the Traveller storyline - I still have this
> picture of old time Traveller players doing their Charlton Heston
> impersonations pounding the sand and curses GDW for blowing everything up.
> The Rebellion came out of no where, wasn't sufficiently justified in
> subsequent publications, wasn't compelling nor realistic. Let's face it,
> if the Rebellion had to take place, it should have wrapped up in a few
> sourcebooks (at most) covering several years in which the various factions
> within the Imperium dwindled down through warfare and diplomacy to just a
> couple and then in the final shootout someone gets iced at Capital and then
> we move on. Mind you, the move to the House System should have still
> eventually taken place, since it makes a heck of a lot more sense for
> Traveller and Twilight/Merc: 2000 to share a common RPG system and have the
> staff concentrate on developing stuff based off that than keep two totally
> different sets of mechanics going. Therefore TNE sourcebooks would start
> out with a revitalized Third Imperium, and then the Empress Wave comes with
> a bit of havoc in the Spinward Marches, and perhaps the rumblings of a
> Second Solomani Rim War.
>
I couldn't agree less. I like TNE not because of the mechanics but
because of the storyline. Mechanics are the engine, but the storyline is
the reason for the trip. The static, boring, unchanging Imperium is gone,
replaced by something dynamic and dangerous and just a little bit hopeful.
That is so much more interesting than more of the same. Yet another
frontier war? Who cares? Might as well just stick to the LBB's if nothing
is really going to change.
TNE presented us with a vibrant new world that had something the 3I never
did: the unknown.
Lets see, my TNE gm died the same week as Princess Diana so 1997... Holy crap that's pushing 17 years ago... Apparently time flies.
So ya it's been a looooooong time since I was there, typically this list is super quiet, it's just every so often something comes along rousing it from it's slumber.
Full disclosure here, the last iteration of traveller I purchased was the GURPS version. Despite the TNE retcon the products themselves weren't bad, I usually purchase things to borrow ideas, maps and pictures that I find useful for my own games. So my question about the more recent versions of Trav were genuine, my "local" rpg store is a 2 hour drive from my house so i haven't been to it in 5 or so years. There used to be 4 within about 30 mins of where I live but most of the, have vanished over the past few years.
As for errata in a Traveller game well hell it wouldn't be Traveller without errata. Don't get me wrong that's a good thing not a bad thing. I don't think I've ever seen another game produce errata to fix problems. Most rpg's tend to follow the business model, it's not hopelessly broken, it's flavour. Now shut up and give us your money or we'll add sparkly vampires in our next edition.
I think the thing that amused me most with the TNE rules was you could literally create a fantasy game with psionic / magic only to have the whole thing turn on it's head when the (insert favourite post collapse faction here) showed back up to reinitiate contact with the world.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 10, 2014, at 11:19 PM, "Evyn MacDude [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 8:39 PM, DEREK STANLEY [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't been on the TML in a decade, there was at the time so much bile and hatred directed towards anyone who liked anything TNE it just seemed pointless to attend.
>
> When was that.... Shit that is disingenuous, It's Traveller online fandom, it was always like that then the bitching subsided and some of the most amusing tech designs got rolled out. In a lot of ways this list here recently has been sounding like what you have been complaining about there.
>
> And yet the TML abides...... Come on back lets see what y'all can do...
>
>> TNE seemed to take a lot of heat for things that were beyond it's control, the down turn of the RPG and the birth of card games, fantasy MMOs, the collapse of GDW, the Rebellion, Virus... Okay that last thing was totally on TNE.
>
> TNE has a strong flavor, and you have to like the game that it pitched. Then there was the bit about the game changing incomprehensibly with the edition change (A lot like the changeover from CT to MT, wanna here me bitch get me started on the abortion that was MT game mechanic wise). Though to be honest maybe people haven't been reading what was going on in those last few issues of challenge and the final folio adventures and book of MT.
>
> Shit where was I, Oh, yes the favorite pastime of the Online fanbase is to Bitch about edition x.
>
>>
>> The hobby shop RPG universe went through a pretty horrible patch there.
>
> Yes it did.
>
> And don't get me wrong I always loved me some TNE, it laid the groundwork in official Game Mechanics and the related to run the weird sorts of games I enjoy with minimal pain in the form of writing my own rules... (Funny thing is that MgT has a butt load of that too)
>
> --
> Evyn
>
My biggest complaint about the CT universe, and I've voiced it a lot so you can stop listening now if you want, is that the players were little fish in a stupid big ocean. Nothing they ever did would amount to anything, the sheer size of the Imperium saw to that.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 11, 2014, at 1:37 AM, "Scott Nolan [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 2:33 AM, Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> Well if you want to assign blame...from most to least:
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> 4. Decisions made regarding the Traveller storyline - I still have this picture of old time Traveller players doing their Charlton Heston impersonations pounding the sand and curses GDW for blowing everything up. The Rebellion came out of no where, wasn't sufficiently justified in subsequent publications, wasn't compelling nor realistic. Let's face it, if the Rebellion had to take place, it should have wrapped up in a few sourcebooks (at most) covering several years in which the various factions within the Imperium dwindled down through warfare and diplomacy to just a couple and then in the final shootout someone gets iced at Capital and then we move on. Mind you, the move to the House System should have still eventually taken place, since it makes a heck of a lot more sense for Traveller and Twilight/Merc: 2000 to share a common RPG system and have the staff concentrate on developing stuff based off that than keep two totally different sets of mechanics going. Therefore TNE sourcebooks would start out with a revitalized Third Imperium, and then the Empress Wave comes with a bit of havoc in the Spinward Marches, and perhaps the rumblings of a Second Solomani Rim War.
>
> I couldn't agree less. I like TNE not because of the mechanics but because of the storyline. Mechanics are the engine, but the storyline is the reason for the trip. The static, boring, unchanging Imperium is gone, replaced by something dynamic and dangerous and just a little bit hopeful. That is so much more interesting than more of the same. Yet another frontier war? Who cares? Might as well just stick to the LBB's if nothing is really going to change.
>
> TNE presented us with a vibrant new world that had something the 3I never did: the unknown.
>
> Scott
>
It amuses me when people say that FIrefly is like Traveller, in that it's the 'small fish in a big pond' thing of average joes ekeing out a living in the spaceways... they seem to forget that actually the Firefly crew turn out to be pretty huge fish in that they destabilise the government and forment revolution against them (presumably that would have been the point of the series had they not needed to finish it off as the Serenity movie).
You don't get interesting stories by being 'small fish' - that's what the filler episodes in Firefly were. The interesting stuff was then they started doing the big things and being Big Damn Heroes. Same with Traveller - the CT setting is terminally boring to me (seriously, you want me to figure out mortgages on spaceships? That's *fun*?), while TNE gave people the opportunity to make a big difference much more of the time.
I disagree the best episode of the series was "Jaynesville" I was laughing
my ass off the entire time.
The Final War is kinda like that as well in that you can be a big fish
kinda as everything falls apart.
I did not like TNE at first but now it is setting wise my favorite 1200 and
1248 is great. GURPS setting is cool as well.
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 3:36 PM, [Traveller_TNE]
<> wrote:
>
>
> It amuses me when people say that FIrefly is like Traveller, in that it's
> the 'small fish in a big pond' thing of average joes ekeing out a living
> in the spaceways... they seem to forget that actually the Firefly crew turn
> out to be pretty huge fish in that they destabilise the government and
> forment revolution against them (presumably that would have been the point
> of the series had they not needed to finish it off as the Serenity movie).
>
> You don't get interesting stories by being 'small fish' - that's what the
> filler episodes in Firefly were. The interesting stuff was then they
> started doing the big things and being Big Damn Heroes. Same with Traveller
> - the CT setting is terminally boring to me (seriously, you want me to
> figure out mortgages on spaceships? That's *fun*?), while TNE gave people
> the opportunity to make a big difference much more of the time.
>
>
>
It wasn't as if the filler was bad in Firefly :) - I just meant it was filler in terms of not being what the main plot was about, which is that they actually made a pretty huge difference to the setting.
As a contrast, I make the comparison between Firefly and Traveller because of two completely different things:
1) The characters act like PCs. They are "ethically challenged merchants" who violently solve their problems using complicated schemes. It was like watching a dramatization of a gaming session.
Have you ever read Darth & Droids web comics (or The Lord of the Rings one that inspired it)? When they pretend it is players running the characters, the entire story changes. With Firefly, no changes would be necessary at all.
2) It is dirty and gritty with a mish-mash of technology. You can a world where horses and trains are major modes of transportation right next to truly hi-tech worlds.
True but Josh let out what season 2 was going to be about. Not huge Verse
shaking stuff. Major points that I remember was; Wash does not die.Inara
gets an incurable disease and her and Mal get closer. Wash and Zoe have a
baby.
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 4:49 PM, [Traveller_TNE]
<> wrote:
>
>
> It wasn't as if the filler was bad in Firefly :) - I just meant it was
> filler in terms of not being what the main plot was about, which is that
> they actually made a pretty huge difference to the setting.
>
>
Player - They have guns?
GM - Yep.
Player - Ours are bigger right?
GM - Doubtlessly.
Player - Right, we rush the front of Gimbals, Clive takes out the security guard...
GM - He's 90... In a walker.
Player - I SAID Clive takes out the security guard while we rush Santa.
Seriously I love some of the bits in Firefly / Serenity. Some of the best PC lines ever are in that movie.
Sure would be nice to have some grenades about now!
I am unarmed.
BLAM!
I am of course wearing full body armour, I'm not a moron.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 11, 2014, at 2:51 PM, "Caddocourt [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
> As a contrast, I make the comparison between Firefly and Traveller because of two completely different things:
> 1) The characters act like PCs. They are "ethically challenged merchants" who violently solve their problems using complicated schemes. It was like watching a dramatization of a gaming session.
> Have you ever read Darth & Droids web comics (or The Lord of the Rings one that inspired it)? When they pretend it is players running the characters, the entire story changes. With Firefly, no changes would be necessary at all.
> 2) It is dirty and gritty with a mish-mash of technology. You can a world where horses and trains are major modes of transportation right next to truly hi-tech worlds.
>
> Mostly the first point, though.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>>
>
>
Wash isn't dead... You take that back you bad man! 😢
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 11, 2014, at 3:11 PM, "charles popp [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
> True but Josh let out what season 2 was going to be about. Not huge Verse shaking stuff. Major points that I remember was; Wash does not die.Inara gets an incurable disease and her and Mal get closer. Wash and Zoe have a baby.
>
>
>> On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 4:49 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>> It wasn't as if the filler was bad in Firefly :) - I just meant it was filler in terms of not being what the main plot was about, which is that they actually made a pretty huge difference to the setting.
>>
>
>
Josh has said that a lot of the inspiration for the show came from an
unnamed Sci-Fi RPG they played as youths.
I love when Mal kicks the henchman into the intake for the engine when he
talks back.
One of the reasons the major setting for Traveller is the Spinward Marches
is it is a lot like an untamed border.
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 5:36 PM, DEREK STANLEY [Traveller_TNE]
<> wrote:
>
>
> Wash isn't dead... You take that back you bad man! 😢
>
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 11, 2014, at 3:11 PM, "charles popp [Traveller_TNE]" <
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> True but Josh let out what season 2 was going to be about. Not huge Verse
> shaking stuff. Major points that I remember was; Wash does not die.Inara
> gets an incurable disease and her and Mal get closer. Wash and Zoe have a
> baby.
>
>
> On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 4:49 PM, [Traveller_TNE]
> <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It wasn't as if the filler was bad in Firefly :) - I just meant it was
>> filler in terms of not being what the main plot was about, which is that
>> they actually made a pretty huge difference to the setting.
>>
>
>
>
From the prospective of what was best for the game before MT came out (c. 1986), I will respectfully disagree with you, but that has 0% to do with the TNE storyline, which hadn't even been thought of yet, and in fact the idea of writing and playing in the TNE environment grew on me over time--call me a "convert" (or Paul if that's not too sacrilegious) if you wish.
I suggest it as a problem just as music critics talk about Metallica or Van Halen or ELO and point to an specific album and where the band changed their sound/style and disenfranchised some portion of their fan base.
All I can say is I came to like all aspects of Traveller. Ct for more rigid
and defined storyline. MT for throwing everything out the window and
scrambling it up. TNE for a loose and anything could happen. GT for seeing
what could happen when someone went 100% gonzo with a property without
selling out(D&D) Mongoose for updating a classic without a total redo.
Sure each one had its sore spots,nothing is perfect but my Lord is
traveller a fun ride
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 6:02 PM, Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE]
<> wrote:
>
>
> From the prospective of what was best for the game before MT came out (c.
> 1986), I will respectfully disagree with you, but that has 0% to do with
> the TNE storyline, which hadn't even been thought of yet, and in fact the
> idea of writing and playing in the TNE environment grew on me over
> time--call me a "convert" (or Paul if that's not too sacrilegious) if you
> wish.
>
> I suggest it as a problem just as music critics talk about Metallica or
> Van Halen or ELO and point to an specific album and where the band changed
> their sound/style and disenfranchised some portion of their fan base.
>
>
>