I don't think T5 can really be said to have 'made its debut' yet. The version that was released as a result of the kickstarter was such a mess and contained so many errors and was so poorly received that the diehards are pretty much going over it all again in an attempt to get something playable out of it.
The sad thing is that it's not even relevant. If people want to get into Traveller nowadays then they'll get Mongoose or Classic Traveller.
==========================
I'm glad I stayed away from the whole T5 thing. After T4 there was no reason to beleive that T5 would be any better edited. Also it seemed way to big and ambitious.
I'm curious as to why Marc would let something out that was so messy. Anyone know?
No idea, I had a look at the 1 copy in my local game store. It was an inch thick and solid tables and little art. Very little flavour text unlike the GURPS traveller rule book. It did introduce 4 or 5 new civilizations scattered through the galaxy!!!
PS Late happy birthday :)
Cheers
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: [Traveller_TNE]
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 12:16 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] T5 Status
---In , <evil_dr_ganymede@...> wrote :
I don't think T5 can really be said to have 'made its debut' yet. The version that was released as a result of the kickstarter was such a mess and contained so many errors and was so poorly received that the diehards are pretty much going over it all again in an attempt to get something playable out of it.
The sad thing is that it's not even relevant. If people want to get into Traveller nowadays then they'll get Mongoose or Classic Traveller.
==========================
I'm glad I stayed away from the whole T5 thing. After T4 there was no reason to beleive that T5 would be any better edited. Also it seemed way to big and ambitious.
I'm curious as to why Marc would let something out that was so messy. Anyone know?
I'm another who is glad to have steered away from T5, though I kept an open mind initially. However, seeing the mad list of digits that now accompany UWPs soured me slightly, however it's the "Second Survey", a 'clean-up' of old UWPs which really put it in the must-avoid pile for me.
This "Second Survey", strangely enough, does not address the low-pop "rockball worlds" which populate much of Delphi and other sectors. Nor does it address the ridiculous names that have been allowed to creep into 'canon' - some subsectors read like a telephone directory. Nope. It does drop most tech-16 worlds from the setting - because new things are possible at tech-16 in T5 (Why not set those to tech-17? Too sensible, I guess). However, that's not even the worst - lots of worlds in published settings get their tech levels massively reduced. Sufren drops to TL-12, pre-virus, losing three tech levels; Accra loses 4 tech levels to hit TL-10, as does Nike Nimbus, and Vezina. Spires, strangely enough, gains three tech levels - hitting TL-5. These are just a handful. What a wonderful fix! A lot of TNE/HT settings virtually get wiped out of Traveller Canon.
As to why Marc allows stuff out like T5, I guess we have to contend with the fact that our vision of what things can be can often blind us to faults in that thing*.
Eamon
* YMMV, I'm sure a lot of people are happy with T5.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 10/5/14, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] T5 Status
To:
Date: Saturday, 10 May, 2014, 0:16
I'm glad I stayed away from the whole T5
thing. After T4 there was no reason to beleive that T5
would be any better edited. Also it seemed way to big and
ambitious.
I'm curious
as to why Marc would let something out that was so messy.
Anyone know?
Matt
==========================
---In ,
<evil_dr_ganymede@...> wrote :
I
don't think T5 can really be said to have 'made its
debut' yet. The version that was released as a result of
the kickstarter was such a mess and contained so many errors
and was so poorly received that the diehards are pretty much
going over it all again in an attempt to get something
playable out of it.
The sad
thing is that it's not even relevant. If people want to
get into Traveller nowadays then they'll get Mongoose or
Classic Traveller.
I'm glad I stayed away from the whole T5
thing. After T4 there was no reason to beleive that T5
would be any better edited. Also it seemed way to big and
ambitious.
I'm curious
as to why Marc would let something out that was so messy.
Anyone know?
#yiv7542336152 div#yiv7542336152ygrp-mlmsg
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font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}
I'm unconcerned by Marc's attempt to bulldoze the setting. Each game is after all a different edition. It has no effect on the existence or validity of prior editions, any more than later editions of D&D/Pathfinder invalidate the little brown books from 1974 I still have in my collection.
My concern over T5 is that it's such a huge honkin' tome that it effectively bars entry to new players. I think Mongoose (and CT) had it right. Introduce the rules in one publication, then introduce the advanced rules and complications in others.
Traveller belongs to Marc, but the game belongs to us, the players.
Regards, Scott
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 10, 2014, at 4:43 AM, "Eamon Watters [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
> I'm another who is glad to have steered away from T5, though I kept an open mind initially. However, seeing the mad list of digits that now accompany UWPs soured me slightly, however it's the "Second Survey", a 'clean-up' of old UWPs which really put it in the must-avoid pile for me.
>
> This "Second Survey", strangely enough, does not address the low-pop "rockball worlds" which populate much of Delphi and other sectors. Nor does it address the ridiculous names that have been allowed to creep into 'canon' - some subsectors read like a telephone directory. Nope. It does drop most tech-16 worlds from the setting - because new things are possible at tech-16 in T5 (Why not set those to tech-17? Too sensible, I guess). However, that's not even the worst - lots of worlds in published settings get their tech levels massively reduced. Sufren drops to TL-12, pre-virus, losing three tech levels; Accra loses 4 tech levels to hit TL-10, as does Nike Nimbus, and Vezina. Spires, strangely enough, gains three tech levels - hitting TL-5. These are just a handful. What a wonderful fix! A lot of TNE/HT settings virtually get wiped out of Traveller Canon.
>
> As to why Marc allows stuff out like T5, I guess we have to contend with the fact that our vision of what things can be can often blind us to faults in that thing*.
>
> Eamon
>
> * YMMV, I'm sure a lot of people are happy with T5.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 10/5/14, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] T5 Status
> To:
> Date: Saturday, 10 May, 2014, 0:16
>
> I'm glad I stayed away from the whole T5
> thing. After T4 there was no reason to beleive that T5
> would be any better edited. Also it seemed way to big and
> ambitious.
>
> I'm curious
> as to why Marc would let something out that was so messy.
> Anyone know?
>
> Matt
>
> ==========================
>
> ---In ,
> <evil_dr_ganymede@...> wrote :
>
> I
> don't think T5 can really be said to have 'made its
> debut' yet. The version that was released as a result of
> the kickstarter was such a mess and contained so many errors
> and was so poorly received that the diehards are pretty much
> going over it all again in an attempt to get something
> playable out of it.
>
> The sad
> thing is that it's not even relevant. If people want to
> get into Traveller nowadays then they'll get Mongoose or
> Classic Traveller.
>
>
> I'm glad I stayed away from the whole T5
> thing. After T4 there was no reason to beleive that T5
> would be any better edited. Also it seemed way to big and
> ambitious.
>
> I'm curious
> as to why Marc would let something out that was so messy.
> Anyone know?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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You're probably right. But writing exclusively for an audience in its 50's is a crappy business model.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 10, 2014, at 11:37 AM, "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
> You live under the mistaken impression that T5 was written with new players in mind....
>
>
Hm, I posted a reply and it hasn't shown up (it contained a link, maybe that's why), so I'll try again. Apologies if a similar post shows up later.
But yeah. I think that's what happened. DonM (the 'mouth of Marc') said on the Traveller G+ group that "the person most disappointed in T5 is Marc Miller". Why would someone be disappointed in what is supposedly their magnum opus?
I think Marc was rushed into it. I think DonM and the 'inner circle' pressured him into starting the kickstarter when he did and releasing it before he was actually ready to publish it (despite the fact that he was working on it for years). That's the only reason I can think of that Marc would be disappointed in it. (also, someone apparently made the decision not to allow the book to be edited). I think one reason that DonM and a few others are so frantically trying to find the errata now and 'fix' things is that they feel responsible for the state it's in and its bad reception as a result because they rushed Marc.
Either way, T5 is a trainwreck. In its current form it is quite justifiably the laughing stock of the RPG world.
Someone posted this 'review' (more like a total butchering) of T5 on the SJG Traveller forums, and it's a thing of beauty. Lurking Rhythmically: Traveller Tuesday: A review of T5 (Traveller 5th edition) - Ponies. Pistols. Pellatarrum. http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.ca/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html
Lurking Rhythmically: Traveller Tuesday: A review ... http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.ca/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html PART 5: BEATING THE DEAD HORSE CALLED "ART" Jack: Oh man.... the battle dress just looks... sad. Way to make me pine for Mongoose's art, Trav5.
View on lurkingrhythmically.... http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.ca/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html
Preview by Yahoo
As to why Marc would let something out like that... I got the impression from what DonM has said on the G+ Traveller group that he didn't want to release it in this form. Don's exact words were "the person most disappointed in T5 is Marc Miller" - if the author of his own magnum opus is disappointed in it then one can only wonder what went wrong. Personally I think Don and the 'inner circle' pressured him to run the kickstarter and release it before he was ready, even though he'd been working on it for years and still hadn't finished (which may explain why they are frantically going through it trying to find the errata and fix all the issues - guilty conscience and sense of responsibility I guess). As a result, the result was a rushed trainwreck that certainly doesn't reflect the fact that nearly $300,000 went into it as a result of the kickstarter.
I don't know either person, and my one brief interaction with Marc was both cordial and quite kind. But T5 is starting to feel a lot like T4 and the nexus of both is Marc Miller. If your name is on it and it's bad, that is your responsibility. If Marc took nearly a third of a million dollars and allowed himself to be rushed into producing inferior product, that is his call and his responsibility. I wasn't part of the Kickstarted, so I'm not complaining.
Frankly. It doesn't appear that bad/no editing is the heart of the problem. Two editions, each with the potential to revive a moribund game, we're allowed to go to market without quality control. Can you really imagine anyone investing in a T6 after this disastrous track record?
Marc could very easily have done what Paizo has been doing very successfully with Pathfinder for more than five years: release an early Beta version in PDFs to anyone who wants to download it and seek comments for a few months. Then hire excellent editors to put it together after incorporating the results of the fans' observations and desires.
Sadly, if what EDG and DonM say is true, then Marc appears to consider Traveller more as a personal project than a commercial one.
I love Traveller and I'm sad to see it get kicked when it's down.
Scott
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 10, 2014, at 12:42 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
> Hm, I posted a reply and it hasn't shown up (it contained a link, maybe that's why), so I'll try again. Apologies if a similar post shows up later.
>
>
> But yeah. I think that's what happened. DonM (the 'mouth of Marc') said on the Traveller G+ group that "the person most disappointed in T5 is Marc Miller". Why would someone be disappointed in what is supposedly their magnum opus?
>
> I think Marc was rushed into it. I think DonM and the 'inner circle' pressured him into starting the kickstarter when he did and releasing it before he was actually ready to publish it (despite the fact that he was working on it for years). That's the only reason I can think of that Marc would be disappointed in it. (also, someone apparently made the decision not to allow the book to be edited). I think one reason that DonM and a few others are so frantically trying to find the errata now and 'fix' things is that they feel responsible for the state it's in and its bad reception as a result because they rushed Marc.
>
> Either way, T5 is a trainwreck. In its current form it is quite justifiably the laughing stock of the RPG world.
>
Meanwhile an Origins Award winning version of the game is available on CD-ROM, is relatively errata free, and could be used as the basis for a variety of other sci-fi, near future, and even near past settings.
If the Kicker Starter money had gone into a relaunch of that to a broader audience, it would be profitable, accessible to all level of players, and not simply a nostalgia thing.
The constant wheel invention over the past 17 or so years would be amusing were it not happening to something I care about.
I think TNE was the last and only time Traveller was even remotely relevant too. It had AI (hey, staple of scifi, largely ignored in other versions) and lots of People Making Dubious Moral Decisions (with lots of modern-day parallels).
Since TNE ended, the game's just gotten more and more fossilised by people trying their darnedest to make sure it doesn't change. At least MJD broke that mold with 1248, but he's been the only person to even try (in terms of official publications).
Seriously, just because people throw a truck load of cash your way doesn’t mean you should print what’s on your computer… Maybe hire an editor and a few artists… Looking at the pictures I’m reminded of the Yellow Pages Ad with the police sketch artist… YOU’RE NOT AN ARTIST!! YOU CAN’T DRAW!!! I realize that these were probably the crappiest images in the book but seriously with 300k in the bank I’m pretty sure you could go do deviant art and pick up a few hundred nice sci-fi images.
As Scott says, he’s really got no one to blame but himself. I don’t know Marc, I’ve never met Marc but from what I’ve heard he’s a nice fellow with some big ideas and if this is any indication not a whole lot of business sense. He really needs to surround himself with some “business” folk and give the “fanbois” the door.
Perhaps it’s time to take Yeller to the back 40 and give her both barrels.
Derek
From: []
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 10:51 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] T5 Status
I don't know either person, and my one brief interaction with Marc was both cordial and quite kind. But T5 is starting to feel a lot like T4 and the nexus of both is Marc Miller. If your name is on it and it's bad, that is your responsibility. If Marc took nearly a third of a million dollars and allowed himself to be rushed into producing inferior product, that is his call and his responsibility. I wasn't part of the Kickstarted, so I'm not complaining.
Frankly. It doesn't appear that bad/no editing is the heart of the problem. Two editions, each with the potential to revive a moribund game, we're allowed to go to market without quality control. Can you really imagine anyone investing in a T6 after this disastrous track record?
Marc could very easily have done what Paizo has been doing very successfully with Pathfinder for more than five years: release an early Beta version in PDFs to anyone who wants to download it and seek comments for a few months. Then hire excellent editors to put it together after incorporating the results of the fans' observations and desires.
Sadly, if what EDG and DonM say is true, then Marc appears to consider Traveller more as a personal project than a commercial one.
I love Traveller and I'm sad to see it get kicked when it's down.
Scott
Sent from my iPhone
On May 10, 2014, at 12:42 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
Hm, I posted a reply and it hasn't shown up (it contained a link, maybe that's why), so I'll try again. Apologies if a similar post shows up later.
But yeah. I think that's what happened. DonM (the 'mouth of Marc') said on the Traveller G+ group that "the person most disappointed in T5 is Marc Miller". Why would someone be disappointed in what is supposedly their magnum opus?
I think Marc was rushed into it. I think DonM and the 'inner circle' pressured him into starting the kickstarter when he did and releasing it before he was actually ready to publish it (despite the fact that he was working on it for years). That's the only reason I can think of that Marc would be disappointed in it. (also, someone apparently made the decision not to allow the book to be edited). I think one reason that DonM and a few others are so frantically trying to find the errata now and 'fix' things is that they feel responsible f or the state it's in and its bad reception as a result because they rushed Marc.
Either way, T5 is a trainwreck. In its current form it is quite justifiably the laughing stock of the RPG world.
<http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.ca/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html> Lurking Rhythmically: Traveller Tuesday: A review ...
PART 5: BEATING THE DEAD HORSE CALLED "ART" Jac k: Oh man.... the battle dress just looks... sad. Way to make me pine for Mongoose's art, Trav5.
<http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.ca/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html> View o n lurkingrhythmically....
Preview by Yahoo
As to why Marc would let something out like that... I got the impression from what DonM has said on the G+ Traveller group that he didn't want to re lease it in this form. Don's exact words were "the person most disappointed in T5 is Marc Miller" - if the author of his own magnum opus is disappointed in it then one can only wonder what went wrong. Personally I think Don and the 'inner circle' pressured him to run the kickstarter and release it before he was ready, even though he'd been working on it for years and still hadn't finished (which may explain why they are frantically going through it trying to find the errata and fix all the issues - guilty conscience and sense of responsibility I guess). As a result, the result was a rushed trainwreck that certainly doesn't reflect the fact that nearly $300,000 went into it as a result of the kickstarter.
>>This "Second Survey", strangely enough, does not address the low-pop
"rockball worlds" which populate much of Delphi and other sectors. Nor
does it address the ridiculous names that have been allowed to creep
into 'canon39; - some subsectors read like a telephone directory. Nope. It
does drop most tech-16 worlds from the setting - because new things are
possible at tech-16 in T5 (Why not set those to tech-17? Too sensible, I
guess). However, that's not even the worst - lots of worlds in published
settings get their tech levels massively reduced. Sufren drops to TL-12,
pre-virus, losing three tech levels; Accra loses 4 tech levels to hit
TL-10, as does Nike Nimbus, and Vezina. Spires, strangely enough, gains
three tech levels - hitting TL-5. These are just a handful. What a
wonderful fix! A lot of TNE/HT settings virtually get wiped out of
Traveller Canon. <<
Ugh. I wanted to be open-minded about T5 but everyone who didn't drink
the Kool-Aid kept posting about it being a train wreck. And development
went on for years and years. I figured it was just going to be vaporware
until the Kickstarter made it happen.
==========================
Scott Nolan wrote:
>>I'm unconcerned by Marc's attempt to bulldoze the setting. Each game
is after all a different edition. It has no effect on the existence or
validity of prior editions,<<
I'm going to disagree with you Scott. There's a story, or history, that
runs from the CT era, through the Rebellion (MT), and into TNE. If you
muck things up, you affect the story. Now, there's parts you can change
that have no impact (like fixing the stars and bulking up planet sizes
so they have enough mass to retain their atmospheres), but the stuff
Eamon points out has a dramatic effect.
If MM wants to re-boot the whole Traveller storyline, it's his
prerogative, but he should say so (It's been a poorly kept secret that
he hates TNE). Be open about it. GURPS Trav was an alternate timeline
that didn't hide that fact. I think that's ok.
==========================
EDG wrote:
>>I posted a reply and it hasn't shown up (it contained a link, maybe
that's why), so I'll try again. <<
Yahoo thought it was spam. I don't think it was the link per se, but
maybe the embedded code.
===========================
Derek Stanley wrote:
>>Wow... That's hilariously scathing.
Actually laughed out loud at some of the parts.<<
Yeah, me too. Man oh man, that was a brutal review. :-D
==========================
EDG wrote:
>>Since TNE ended, the game's just gotten more and more fossilised by
people trying their darnedest to make sure it doesn't change. At least
MJD broke that mold with 1248, but he's been the only person to even try
(in terms of official publications)
<<
No idea, I had a look at the 1 copy in my local game store. It was an inch thick and solid tables and little art. Very little flavour text unlike the GURPS traveller rule book. It did introduce 4 or 5 new civilizations scattered through the galaxy!!!
PS Late happy birthday :)
Cheers
Richard
=====================
Thanks Richard! Went to Disneyland and rode on the Tomorrowland rides :)
I would think that having been nagged about the T4 debacle that Marc would have tightened up T5.
Not sure if T5 is worth just for a few new civilizations. And a book full of tables doesn't sound like much fun.
I'm unconcerned by Marc's attempt to bulldoze the setting. Each game is after all a different edition. It has no effect on the existence or validity of prior editions, any more than later editions of D&D/Pathfinder invalidate the little brown books from 1974 I still have in my collection.
My concern over T5 is that it's such a huge honkin' tome that it effectively bars entry to new players. I think Mongoose (and CT) had it right. Introduce the rules in one publication, then introduce the advanced rules and complications in others.
Traveller belongs to Marc, but the game belongs to us, the players.
Regards, Scott
==================================
I completely agree Scott. I think that Mong Trav is a really good attempt to update Traveller and bring it forward to the current day. I tend to ignore the supplements that they put out and just use the old CT and TNE stuff.
I bought a book of tables once, it was called Introduction to Statistics... Best hour nap every tues / thurs of my school career.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 10, 2014, at 7:31 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ---In , <rjperks@...> wrote :
>
>
> Matt
>
> No idea, I had a look at the 1 copy in my local game store. It was an inch thick and solid tables and little art. Very little flavour text unlike the GURPS traveller rule book. It did introduce 4 or 5 new civilizations scattered through the galaxy!!!
>
> PS Late happy birthday :)
>
> Cheers
> Richard
>
> =====================
>
> Thanks Richard! Went to Disneyland and rode on the Tomorrowland rides :)
>
> I would think that having been nagged about the T4 debacle that Marc would have tightened up T5.
>
> Not sure if T5 is worth just for a few new civilizations. And a book full of tables doesn't sound like much fun.
>
> Matt
>
Having just built a robot the Mong T, yes that's what I'm calling it, rules are actually pretty cool. IF you can get past the fact that there's no power source. I did like "cranky robot".
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On May 10, 2014, at 7:37 PM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ---In , <nolan@...> wrote :
>
> I'm unconcerned by Marc's attempt to bulldoze the setting. Each game is after all a different edition. It has no effect on the existence or validity of prior editions, any more than later editions of D&D/Pathfinder invalidate the little brown books from 1974 I still have in my collection.
>
> My concern over T5 is that it's such a huge honkin' tome that it effectively bars entry to new players. I think Mongoose (and CT) had it right. Introduce the rules in one publication, then introduce the advanced rules and complications in others.
>
> Traveller belongs to Marc, but the game belongs to us, the players.
>
> Regards, Scott
>
> ==================================
>
> I completely agree Scott. I think that Mong Trav is a really good attempt to update Traveller and bring it forward to the current day. I tend to ignore the supplements that they put out and just use the old CT and TNE stuff.
>
> Matt
>
I am willing to bet that he wasn't interested or invested in the GDW House System because it wasn't *his* system. That system was made by others. He wanted his game to use his system. I can't prove that, but that is my guess of why that system was ignored.
Sent from my iPad
> On May 10, 2014, at 1:55 PM, "Harold Hale [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
> Meanwhile an Origins Award winning version of the game is available on CD-ROM, is relatively errata free, and could be used as the basis for a variety of other sci-fi, near future, and even near past settings.
>
>