I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had all the material.
I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they went away.
That's honestly about what I know.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
>
> >
> > > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their own
> > > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct (the
> > > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
> > >
> > > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain their
> > > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their forebears &
> > > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the even
> > > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
> >
> > I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
> > "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
> > differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.
>
> And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are... affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain moving goalposts.
>
> I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.
>
> > > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> > > originally set to a conservative pace.
> >
> > Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core" that
> > made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably is
> > not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which Yaskoydray
> > was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
>
> Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to Droyne).
>
> > > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> > > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from the
> > > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
> >
> > As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
> > resupply/commo missions come through.
>
> Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty premises & make placebo responses.
>
> Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they were cleared by the authorities.
>
>
Might have some pretty ugly implications for some PBEM’s underway, right now...(one of which is probably one of the LONGEST running Trav PBEM game’s, to date...8-)....
C/L
From: DEREK STANLEY
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:40 PM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] The Ancients
I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had all the material.
I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they went away.
That's honestly about what I know.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
>
> > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their own
> > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct (the
> > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
> >
> > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain their
> > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their forebears &
> > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the even
> > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
>
> I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
> "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
> differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.
And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are... affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain moving goalposts.
I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.
> > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> > originally set to a conservative pace.
>
> Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core" that
> made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably is
> not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which Yaskoydray
> was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to Droyne).
> > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from the
> > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
>
> As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
> resupply/commo missions come through.
Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty premises & make placebo responses.
Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they were cleared by the authorities.
That's one of the fun things about Traveller, that we tried to explicitly
use in TNE, which is life recapitulating fiction, where something "known"
in the game becomes something "secret" in the game, although hidden in
plain sight.
My advice to you and Derek is keep your brains pure the way they are and
let the mystery remain a mystery. Too much knowledge about the (in-game
fiction) "truth" makes it deterministic and takes away the fun. Or, to put
it in terms of quantum theory, it's much more fun to think that an electon
can be in an infinite number of places than to try measure it and collapse
the probability wave into simple mundane facts.
> Iâm w/ DS on this...
> WTF..???
>
> Might have some pretty ugly implications for some PBEMâs underway, right
> now...(one of which is probably one of the LONGEST running Trav PBEM
> gameâs, to date...8-)....
>
> C/L
>
> From: DEREK STANLEY
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:40 PM
> To:
> Subject: [Traveller_TNE] The Ancients
>
>
>
> I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old
> campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had
> all the material.
>
> I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather
> sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human
> life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they
> went away.
>
> That's honestly about what I know.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
>
> >
> > > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their
> own
> > > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct
> (the
> > > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
> > >
> > > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain
> their
> > > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their
> forebears &
> > > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the
> even
> > > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
> >
> > I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
> > "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
> > differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.
>
> And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain
> subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are...
> affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their
> best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until
> the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times
> before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate
> and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or
> guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been
> subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police
> even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain
> moving goalposts.
>
> I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran
> (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but
> humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise
> know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.
>
> > > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> > > originally set to a conservative pace.
> >
> > Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core"
> that
> > made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably
> is
> > not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which
> Yaskoydray
> > was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
>
> Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were
> doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always
> have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps
> refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire
> Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though
> could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if
> not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to
> Droyne).
>
> > > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> > > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from
> the
> > > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
> >
> > As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
> > resupply/commo missions come through.
>
> Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not
> suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using
> a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty
> premises & make placebo responses.
>
> Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be
> eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be
> allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they
> were cleared by the authorities.
>
>
This was the problem I had with the ancients mystery, I both want to and don't want to know. I know enough that a lot of it is no longer a mystery, and there's still enough to tantalize me. The more I learn, the less glamorous and exciting the mystery becomes because my mind is no longer trying to fill in the gaps.
Take for example the TV show Lost, unseen freaky monster that uproots trees in the middle of the night making this horrible mechanical sounds and killing people at random. Is vastly scarier than the physical form they gave the critter 2 seasons later. Imagination is always scarier than reality.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:10 PM, wrote:
>
> That's one of the fun things about Traveller, that we tried to explicitly
> use in TNE, which is life recapitulating fiction, where something "known"
> in the game becomes something "secret" in the game, although hidden in
> plain sight.
>
> My advice to you and Derek is keep your brains pure the way they are and
> let the mystery remain a mystery. Too much knowledge about the (in-game
> fiction) "truth" makes it deterministic and takes away the fun. Or, to put
> it in terms of quantum theory, it's much more fun to think that an electon
> can be in an infinite number of places than to try measure it and collapse
> the probability wave into simple mundane facts.
>
> > I’m w/ DS on this...
> > WTF..???
> >
> > Might have some pretty ugly implications for some PBEM’s underway, right
> > now...(one of which is probably one of the LONGEST running Trav PBEM
> > game’s, to date...8-)....
> >
> > C/L
> >
> > From: DEREK STANLEY
> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:40 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: [Traveller_TNE] The Ancients
> >
> >
> >
> > I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old
> > campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had
> > all the material.
> >
> > I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather
> > sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human
> > life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they
> > went away.
> >
> > That's honestly about what I know.
> >
> > Derek Stanley
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> > On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their
> > own
> > > > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct
> > (the
> > > > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
> > > >
> > > > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain
> > their
> > > > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their
> > forebears &
> > > > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the
> > even
> > > > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
> > >
> > > I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
> > > "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
> > > differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.
> >
> > And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain
> > subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are...
> > affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their
> > best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until
> > the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times
> > before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate
> > and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or
> > guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been
> > subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police
> > even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain
> > moving goalposts.
> >
> > I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran
> > (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but
> > humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise
> > know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.
> >
> > > > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> > > > originally set to a conservative pace.
> > >
> > > Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core"
> > that
> > > made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably
> > is
> > > not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which
> > Yaskoydray
> > > was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
> >
> > Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were
> > doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always
> > have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps
> > refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire
> > Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though
> > could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if
> > not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to
> > Droyne).
> >
> > > > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> > > > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from
> > the
> > > > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
> > >
> > > As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
> > > resupply/commo missions come through.
> >
> > Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not
> > suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using
> > a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty
> > premises & make placebo responses.
> >
> > Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be
> > eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be
> > allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they
> > were cleared by the authorities.
> >
> >
>
>
I think I think there were still plenty of mysteries with the Ancients.
Specifically what the purpose of Yaskoydray was with his manipulations on
humanity, the Vargr, etc. Exactly why he wigged out on his children to
where he felt he needed to exterminate them... The references that they
didn't initially understand his objective (or by what means they arrived at
that conjecture) means it wasn't really a Droyne thing, either. And of
course what he's been up to since.
I do like Dave's decision to not take the easy way and have the Ancients be
the cause for the EW, but that something they themselves were interested
in, which is why they had a starmap on Zdhant for the Zhos to find....
- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Mar 30, 2014 7:18 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>
>
> This was the problem I had with the ancients mystery, I both want to and
> don't want to know. I know enough that a lot of it is no longer a mystery,
> and there's still enough to tantalize me. The more I learn, the less
> glamorous and exciting the mystery becomes because my mind is no longer
> trying to fill in the gaps.
>
> Take for example the TV show Lost, unseen freaky monster that uproots
> trees in the middle of the night making this horrible mechanical sounds and
> killing people at random. Is vastly scarier than the physical form they
> gave the critter 2 seasons later. Imagination is always scarier than
> reality.
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:10 PM, wrote:
>
>
>
> That's one of the fun things about Traveller, that we tried to explicitly
> use in TNE, which is life recapitulating fiction, where something "known"
> in the game becomes something "secret" in the game, although hidden in
> plain sight.
>
> My advice to you and Derek is keep your brains pure the way they are and
> let the mystery remain a mystery. Too much knowledge about the (in-game
> fiction) "truth" makes it deterministic and takes away the fun. Or, to put
> it in terms of quantum theory, it's much more fun to think that an electon
> can be in an infinite number of places than to try measure it and collapse
> the probability wave into simple mundane facts.
>
> > I'm w/ DS on this...
> > WTF..???
> >
> > Might have some pretty ugly implications for some PBEM's underway, right
> > now...(one of which is probably one of the LONGEST running Trav PBEM
> > game's, to date...8-)....
> >
> > C/L
> >
> > From: DEREK STANLEY
> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:40 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: [Traveller_TNE] The Ancients
> >
> >
> >
> > I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old
> > campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had
> > all the material.
> >
> > I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather
> > sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human
> > life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they
> > went away.
> >
> > That's honestly about what I know.
> >
> > Derek Stanley
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> > On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their
> > own
> > > > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct
> > (the
> > > > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
> > > >
> > > > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain
> > their
> > > > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their
> > forebears &
> > > > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the
> > even
> > > > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
> > >
> > > I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
> > > "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
> > > differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.
> >
> > And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain
> > subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are...
> > affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their
> > best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until
> > the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times
> > before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate
> > and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or
> > guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been
> > subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police
> > even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain
> > moving goalposts.
> >
> > I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran
> > (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but
> > humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise
> > know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.
> >
> > > > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> > > > originally set to a conservative pace.
> > >
> > > Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core"
> > that
> > > made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably
> > is
> > > not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which
> > Yaskoydray
> > > was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
> >
> > Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were
> > doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always
> > have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps
> > refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire
> > Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though
> > could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if
> > not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to
> > Droyne).
> >
> > > > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> > > > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from
> > the
> > > > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
> > >
> > > As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
> > > resupply/commo missions come through.
> >
> > Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not
> > suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using
> > a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty
> > premises & make placebo responses.
> >
> > Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be
> > eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be
> > allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they
> > were cleared by the authorities.
> >
> >
>
>
>
Why do for yourself what you can get someone else to do 100 centuries from now?
Ancients Proverb
Seriously what'd he find? Online competitive gaming?
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 30, 2014, at 8:42 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
> I think I think there were still plenty of mysteries with the Ancients. Specifically what the purpose of Yaskoydray was with his manipulations on humanity, the Vargr, etc. Exactly why he wigged out on his children to where he felt he needed to exterminate them... The references that they didn't initially understand his objective (or by what means they arrived at that conjecture) means it wasn't really a Droyne thing, either. And of course what he's been up to since.
>
> I do like Dave's decision to not take the easy way and have the Ancients be the cause for the EW, but that something they themselves were interested in, which is why they had a starmap on Zdhant for the Zhos to find....
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>
>> On Mar 30, 2014 7:18 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>
>> This was the problem I had with the ancients mystery, I both want to and don't want to know. I know enough that a lot of it is no longer a mystery, and there's still enough to tantalize me. The more I learn, the less glamorous and exciting the mystery becomes because my mind is no longer trying to fill in the gaps.
>>
>> Take for example the TV show Lost, unseen freaky monster that uproots trees in the middle of the night making this horrible mechanical sounds and killing people at random. Is vastly scarier than the physical form they gave the critter 2 seasons later. Imagination is always scarier than reality.
>>
>> Derek Stanley
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:10 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> That's one of the fun things about Traveller, that we tried to explicitly
>>> use in TNE, which is life recapitulating fiction, where something "known"
>>> in the game becomes something "secret" in the game, although hidden in
>>> plain sight.
>>>
>>> My advice to you and Derek is keep your brains pure the way they are and
>>> let the mystery remain a mystery. Too much knowledge about the (in-game
>>> fiction) "truth" makes it deterministic and takes away the fun. Or, to put
>>> it in terms of quantum theory, it's much more fun to think that an electon
>>> can be in an infinite number of places than to try measure it and collapse
>>> the probability wave into simple mundane facts.
>>>
>>> > I’m w/ DS on this...
>>> > WTF..???
>>> >
>>> > Might have some pretty ugly implications for some PBEM’s underway, right
>>> > now...(one of which is probably one of the LONGEST running Trav PBEM
>>> > game’s, to date...8-)....
>>> >
>>> > C/L
>>> >
>>> > From: DEREK STANLEY
>>> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:40 PM
>>> > To:
>>> > Subject: [Traveller_TNE] The Ancients
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old
>>> > campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had
>>> > all the material.
>>> >
>>> > I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather
>>> > sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human
>>> > life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they
>>> > went away.
>>> >
>>> > That's honestly about what I know.
>>> >
>>> > Derek Stanley
>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>> >
>>> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>> > On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their
>>> > own
>>> > > > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct
>>> > (the
>>> > > > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
>>> > > >
>>> > > > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain
>>> > their
>>> > > > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their
>>> > forebears &
>>> > > > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the
>>> > even
>>> > > > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
>>> > >
>>> > > I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
>>> > > "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
>>> > > differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.
>>> >
>>> > And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain
>>> > subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are...
>>> > affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their
>>> > best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until
>>> > the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times
>>> > before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate
>>> > and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or
>>> > guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been
>>> > subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police
>>> > even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain
>>> > moving goalposts.
>>> >
>>> > I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran
>>> > (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but
>>> > humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise
>>> > know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.
>>> >
>>> > > > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
>>> > > > originally set to a conservative pace.
>>> > >
>>> > > Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core"
>>> > that
>>> > > made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably
>>> > is
>>> > > not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which
>>> > Yaskoydray
>>> > > was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
>>> >
>>> > Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were
>>> > doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always
>>> > have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps
>>> > refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire
>>> > Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though
>>> > could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if
>>> > not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to
>>> > Droyne).
>>> >
>>> > > > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
>>> > > > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from
>>> > the
>>> > > > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
>>> > >
>>> > > As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
>>> > > resupply/commo missions come through.
>>> >
>>> > Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not
>>> > suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using
>>> > a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty
>>> > premises & make placebo responses.
>>> >
>>> > Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be
>>> > eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be
>>> > allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they
>>> > were cleared by the authorities.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>
>
> Seriously what'd he find? Online competitive gaming?
Palettes and palettes and palettes of bottled water being shipped around
Charted Space so that we can pay more money, waste more resources, and
create more garbage.
"Selling ice to eskimos" is supposed to be silly, but pity the poor Romans
who wasted all that time building aqueducts for us. We are now living in
"post-civilization," I guess.
> Why do for yourself what you can get someone else to do 100 centuries from
> now?
>
> Ancients Proverb
>
> Seriously what'd he find? Online competitive gaming?
>
> Derek Stanley
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 8:42 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>> I think I think there were still plenty of mysteries with the Ancients.
>> Specifically what the purpose of Yaskoydray was with his manipulations
>> on humanity, the Vargr, etc. Exactly why he wigged out on his children
>> to where he felt he needed to exterminate them... The references that
>> they didn't initially understand his objective (or by what means they
>> arrived at that conjecture) means it wasn't really a Droyne thing,
>> either. And of course what he's been up to since.
>>
>> I do like Dave's decision to not take the easy way and have the Ancients
>> be the cause for the EW, but that something they themselves were
>> interested in, which is why they had a starmap on Zdhant for the Zhos
>> to find....
>> - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>
>>> On Mar 30, 2014 7:18 PM, "DEREK STANLEY" <> wrote:
>>>
>>> This was the problem I had with the ancients mystery, I both want to
>>> and don't want to know. I know enough that a lot of it is no longer a
>>> mystery, and there's still enough to tantalize me. The more I learn,
>>> the less glamorous and exciting the mystery becomes because my mind is
>>> no longer trying to fill in the gaps.
>>>
>>> Take for example the TV show Lost, unseen freaky monster that uproots
>>> trees in the middle of the night making this horrible mechanical sounds
>>> and killing people at random. Is vastly scarier than the physical form
>>> they gave the critter 2 seasons later. Imagination is always scarier
>>> than reality.
>>>
>>> Derek Stanley
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:10 PM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's one of the fun things about Traveller, that we tried to
>>>> explicitly
>>>> use in TNE, which is life recapitulating fiction, where something
>>>> "known"
>>>> in the game becomes something "secret" in the game, although hidden
>>>> in
>>>> plain sight.
>>>>
>>>> My advice to you and Derek is keep your brains pure the way they are
>>>> and
>>>> let the mystery remain a mystery. Too much knowledge about the
>>>> (in-game
>>>> fiction) "truth" makes it deterministic and takes away the fun. Or, to
>>>> put
>>>> it in terms of quantum theory, it's much more fun to think that an
>>>> electon
>>>> can be in an infinite number of places than to try measure it and
>>>> collapse
>>>> the probability wave into simple mundane facts.
>>>>
>>>> > Iâm w/ DS on this...
>>>> > WTF..???
>>>> >
>>>> > Might have some pretty ugly implications for some PBEMâs underway,
>>>> right
>>>> > now...(one of which is probably one of the LONGEST running Trav
>>>> PBEM
>>>> > gameâs, to date...8-)....
>>>> >
>>>> > C/L
>>>> >
>>>> > From: DEREK STANLEY
>>>> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:40 PM
>>>> > To:
>>>> > Subject: [Traveller_TNE] The Ancients
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my
>>>> old
>>>> > campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time
>>>> had
>>>> > all the material.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know
>>>> grandfather
>>>> > sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded
>>>> human
>>>> > life about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and
>>>> they
>>>> > went away.
>>>> >
>>>> > That's honestly about what I know.
>>>> >
>>>> > Derek Stanley
>>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Master Uxi <>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>>>> > On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond
>>>> their
>>>> > own
>>>> > > > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to
>>>> correct
>>>> > (the
>>>> > > > "supercharged") or even understand (the "possessed").
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily
>>>> obtain
>>>> > their
>>>> > > > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their
>>>> > forebears &
>>>> > > > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or
>>>> the
>>>> > even
>>>> > > > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary
>>>> notion of
>>>> > > "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that
>>>> behavioral
>>>> > > differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical
>>>> differences.
>>>> >
>>>> > And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain
>>>> > subset of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point
>>>> are...
>>>> > affected somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than
>>>> their
>>>> > best & brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were.
>>>> Until
>>>> > the walls bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple
>>>> times
>>>> > before they figured out that the wave was moving towards the
>>>> Consulate
>>>> > and one could almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight
>>>> and/or
>>>> > guilt towards how they might have treated those who would have been
>>>> > subject to exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought
>>>> Police
>>>> > even when not noticeably affected just because they passed certain
>>>> > moving goalposts.
>>>> >
>>>> > I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or
>>>> Qiknavran
>>>> > (or subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious
>>>> but
>>>> > humans have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when
>>>> otherwise
>>>> > know better, they could be falsely premised on subjective
>>>> qualities.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually,
>>>> though
>>>> > > > originally set to a conservative pace.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The
>>>> Core"
>>>> > that
>>>> > > made the original Ancient device point them that way, which
>>>> presumably
>>>> > is
>>>> > > not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which
>>>> > Yaskoydray
>>>> > > was also subject, and which therefore interested him.
>>>> >
>>>> > Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren
>>>> were
>>>> > doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well
>>>> (always
>>>> > have visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or
>>>> perhaps
>>>> > refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The
>>>> entire
>>>> > Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications...
>>>> Though
>>>> > could easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium,
>>>> if
>>>> > not seen as bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to
>>>> > Droyne).
>>>> >
>>>> > > > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they
>>>> were
>>>> > > > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests
>>>> from
>>>> > the
>>>> > > > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real
>>>> Zho"
>>>> > > resupply/commo missions come through.
>>>> >
>>>> > Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if
>>>> not
>>>> > suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people
>>>> using
>>>> > a scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on
>>>> faulty
>>>> > premises & make placebo responses.
>>>> >
>>>> > Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly
>>>> be
>>>> > eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not
>>>> be
>>>> > allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if
>>>> they
>>>> > were cleared by the authorities.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Derek wrote:
>Seriously what'd he find? Online competitive gaming?
Something much worse. His children were participating in a new tri-dee game show: "Survivor: Eskayloyt".
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
Has anyone experimented with the concept of using Variable History to maintain a sense of mystery?
It was an interesting design feature of Mekton Empire that might be adaptable to Traveller campaigns.
>
> I've got to admit to being completely in the dark here. None of my old
> campaigns had anything to do with the ancients and my GM at the time had
> all the material.
>
>
>
> I know that the droyne are tied in with the ancients. I know grandfather
> sealed himself off in a pocket universe. I know that they seeded human life
> about the cosmos and uplifted the Vargr. Something happened and they went
> away.
>
>
>
> That's honestly about what I know.
>
>
>
> This was the problem I had with the ancients mystery, I both want to and
> don't want to know. I know enough that a lot of it is no longer a mystery,
> and there's still enough to tantalize me. The more I learn, the less
> glamorous and exciting the mystery becomes because my mind is no longer
> trying to fill in the gaps.
>
>
The "public" version goes that there were Ancients about 300,000 years ago,
they destroyed each other after only a few thousand years, and they spread
Humaniti, Droyne, and odd installations (no two alike) all over Charted
Space, and were probably behind making the Vargr sentient. Dovetailing
with this is a common mythological figure on many Droyne worlds known as
Yaskoydray, "Grandfather", and startlingly common cultural elements,
including language, among most or all of the widely scattered Droyne worlds.
Beyond that, the Imperial public can only conjecture. A few know more, and
a very few think they know more than that. Some of them might be right.
The Imperium maintains a huge naval blockade around two Droyne worlds in
Five Sisters, so presumably they think they know something.
The Geonee of Massilia Sector think *they* are the Ancients. No one else
agrees with them, though.
The Zhodani public knows that the Core Expeditions are a big drive among
the nobility, and this is not a secret even across the border in Imperial
space, though it is hardly common knowledge either. What is a big state
secret is *why*. Even the Zhodani nobility don't know what they are
looking for, though, only that the search is worth undertaking. The big
reveal doesn't happen until the 1240s.
The closest thing I can think of in Traveller is the way all refs have the
freedom to modify or leave things out.
On the other hand, I am imagining the PCs waking up each morning to a
"Dude, Where's My Starship?" scenario, where they have to figure out which
parts of reality shifted out from under them over night.
> Has anyone experimented with the concept of using Variable History to
> maintain a sense of mystery?
> It was an interesting design feature of Mekton Empire that might be
> adaptable to Traveller campaigns.