Thread: Credit where credit is due

By the way, it occurs to me that it makes sense to point out some things
that were Frank's contribution to TNE, because it seems only right.

Frank, GDW's genre-hopping president, as I'm sure you all know, made huge
contributions to TNE. I think he used the same kind of creative process
that I did, where he would allow the different lines to inspire each
other, rather than impair each other. What I mean by that is that it was
difficult to jump from a Challenge magazine to a Dark Con product to a
minuatures project to a TNE project to a boardgame project several times a
day, because it takes effort to wrap your brain back around the local
specific rules and environment. What I would do to kickstart the creative
process would be to think, "Okay, I just came off a Dark Con project and
have to go back to Traveller. What would a Dark Con character think of
this TNE situation, or how would this boardgame situation be translated
into TNE terms?" I think Frank did much the same thing.

In no particular order, Frank's ideas included the following:

* Schalli
* Sean "Hammer" Lathrop
* The female RC trooper who was divorced or separated
* The Ithklur PC in Star Vikings
* The "absent friends" toast
* The "Star Vikings" meme to begin with
* The "Long Ships" meme to begin with. My old college friend, Traveller
player, skipper of the Belladonna, and Best Man at my wedding Rick Boquist
did the design, which got sent back a couple times, "make it uglier, less
streamlined" "make it longer," "loooonger," and I convinced Frank to
change the name to "Clipper"
* The title and structure of the "PoT" book, from the Cherokee term
* The title and structure of the "S&G" book
* The original concept of a virus to end the Rebellion era, which is how
we had people bashing TNE long before we actually made any of the final
decisions. As recounted elsewhere, I decided to go with the virus idea
because it had a lot of things that appealed to me: Allowed us to bring AI
into Traveller, and the whole Aeschylus Once an Eagle quote:

So in the Libyan fable it is told
That once an eagle, stricken with a dart,
Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft,
"With our own feathers, not by others' hands,
Are we now smitten."

That was the only way to end the Rebellion.

* The Solee
* Lots of other things.

Dave

--- In , dcndcn13@... wrote:
>
> In no particular order, Frank's ideas included the following:
>
> * Schalli
> * Sean "Hammer" Lathrop
> * The female RC trooper who was divorced or separated
> * The Ithklur PC in Star Vikings
> * The "absent friends" toast
> * The "Star Vikings" meme to begin with
> * The "Long Ships" meme to begin with. My old college friend, Traveller
> player, skipper of the Belladonna, and Best Man at my wedding Rick Boquist
> did the design, which got sent back a couple times, "make it uglier, less
> streamlined" "make it longer," "loooonger," and I convinced Frank to
> change the name to "Clipper"
> * The title and structure of the "PoT" book, from the Cherokee term
> * The title and structure of the "S&G" book
> * The original concept of a virus to end the Rebellion era, which is how
> we had people bashing TNE long before we actually made any of the final
> decisions. As recounted elsewhere, I decided to go with the virus idea
> because it had a lot of things that appealed to me: Allowed us to bring AI
> into Traveller, and the whole Aeschylus Once an Eagle quote:
>
> So in the Libyan fable it is told
> That once an eagle, stricken with a dart,
> Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft,
> "With our own feathers, not by others' hands,
> Are we now smitten."
>
> That was the only way to end the Rebellion.
>
> * The Solee
> * Lots of other things.
>
> Dave
>

We shall have to make sure we hold our roughly annual Toast to Absent Friends at Celesticon this year, then, since Frank is scheduled to be there.

I know Loren was working on deckplans for the Clipper at one point. He made it sound like a matter of pride to complete. Not sure how far he's gotten, but my attempt stopped (well before hearing of his) when I did the tonnage breakdown for the Clipper and realized just how much of the bare Clipper is behind the Engineering firewall.

James--

Yes, you definitely should, I think he would appreciate that. And make
sure he knows it is also in tribute to him, as well as to the actual
absent friends that you will all be remembering. I know there are several
that Frank will think of. Winston Hamilton, Bill and Andy Keith, Gary
Gygax....

Where is Celesticon?

Loren was working on them at GDW. My understanding was that shortly after
the Traveller license went back to Marc that was supposed to be a
non-starter, as Marc didn't want to pursue TNE concepts, but since then I
think it is a possibility again. However, Loren's health issues complicate
that, and there are other projects he is trying to work on as well.

Much of Loren's deckplans (he would show them to me at GDW, we were
next-door neighbors on the back hallway) were of all of the individual
modules. And of course, he would just barely get started on one module
when that would make him think of another one, and another, and another,
which would cause him/us to go back to FF&S to design them.

Dave

> We shall have to make sure we hold our roughly annual Toast to Absent
> Friends at Celesticon this year, then, since Frank is scheduled to be
> there.
>
> I know Loren was working on deckplans for the Clipper at one point. He
> made it sound like a matter of pride to complete. Not sure how far he's
> gotten, but my attempt stopped (well before hearing of his) when I did the
> tonnage breakdown for the Clipper and realized just how much of the bare
> Clipper is behind the Engineering firewall.

Always loved the Clipper design. Reminds me of the ship from Star Control
2. I would love to see these module designs and deckplans.

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:45 PM, <> wrote:

>
>
> James--
>
> Yes, you definitely should, I think he would appreciate that. And make
> sure he knows it is also in tribute to him, as well as to the actual
> absent friends that you will all be remembering. I know there are several
> that Frank will think of. Winston Hamilton, Bill and Andy Keith, Gary
> Gygax....
>
> Where is Celesticon?
>
> Loren was working on them at GDW. My understanding was that shortly after
> the Traveller license went back to Marc that was supposed to be a
> non-starter, as Marc didn't want to pursue TNE concepts, but since then I
> think it is a possibility again. However, Loren's health issues complicate
> that, and there are other projects he is trying to work on as well.
>
> Much of Loren's deckplans (he would show them to me at GDW, we were
> next-door neighbors on the back hallway) were of all of the individual
> modules. And of course, he would just barely get started on one module
> when that would make him think of another one, and another, and another,
> which would cause him/us to go back to FF&S to design them.
>
>
> Dave
>
> > We shall have to make sure we hold our roughly annual Toast to Absent
> > Friends at Celesticon this year, then, since Frank is scheduled to be
> > there.
> >
> > I know Loren was working on deckplans for the Clipper at one point. He
> > made it sound like a matter of pride to complete. Not sure how far he's
> > gotten, but my attempt stopped (well before hearing of his) when I did
> the
> > tonnage breakdown for the Clipper and realized just how much of the bare
> > Clipper is behind the Engineering firewall.
>
>
>

They existed in draft print-out form about 18 or so years ago. He used a
simple graphical/drafting program.

> Always loved the Clipper design. Reminds me of the ship from Star Control
> 2. I would love to see these module designs and deckplans.
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:45 PM, <> wrote:
>

I would assume the RAFM miniatures were based on that work? Would have
loved to see a simple schematic identifying what's what on the molds.
Always had the desire to cast a slightly bigger scale in resin and make
them actually "clip" or something like that.

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:51 PM, <> wrote:

>
>
> They existed in draft print-out form about 18 or so years ago. He used a
> simple graphical/drafting program.
>
>
> > Always loved the Clipper design. Reminds me of the ship from Star Control
> > 2. I would love to see these module designs and deckplans.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:45 PM, <> wrote:
> >
>
>
>

Now would I get in trouble if I had a print on demand place make me some ships
that where comparable with the Ad Astra stuff? I am looking to build some
fleets.

________________________________
From: Master Uxi
Sent: Mon, June 25, 2012 3:49:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Credit where credit is due

Always loved the Clipper design. Reminds me of the ship from Star Control 2. I
would love to see these module designs and deckplans.

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:45 PM, <> wrote:

>James--
>
>Yes, you definitely should, I think he would appreciate that. And make
>sure he knows it is also in tribute to him, as well as to the actual
>absent friends that you will all be remembering. I know there are several
>that Frank will think of. Winston Hamilton, Bill and Andy Keith, Gary
>Gygax....
>
>Where is Celesticon?
>
>Loren was working on them at GDW. My understanding was that shortly after
>the Traveller license went back to Marc that was supposed to be a
>non-starter, as Marc didn't want to pursue TNE concepts, but since then I
>think it is a possibility again. However, Loren's health issues complicate
>that, and there are other projects he is trying to work on as well.
>
>Much of Loren's deckplans (he would show them to me at GDW, we were
>next-door neighbors on the back hallway) were of all of the individual
>modules. And of course, he would just barely get started on one module
>when that would make him think of another one, and another, and another,
>which would cause him/us to go back to FF&S to design them.
>
>
>Dave
>
>> We shall have to make sure we hold our roughly annual Toast to Absent
>> Friends at Celesticon this year, then, since Frank is scheduled to be
>> there.
>>
>> I know Loren was working on deckplans for the Clipper at one point. He
>> made it sound like a matter of pride to complete. Not sure how far he's
>> gotten, but my attempt stopped (well before hearing of his) when I did the
>> tonnage breakdown for the Clipper and realized just how much of the bare
>> Clipper is behind the Engineering firewall.
>
>

They weren't based on the deckplans, but on the reference art we produced
for the basic Clipper "spine" plus the Manta fuel skimmer, plus the
200-ton modules, 100-ton modules, 50-ton modules, etc. They may have done
the "bay mounted" semi-spinal weapon based on our verbal guidance.

Actually, that may not be entirely true. They may have based part of their
mini on Doug Chaffee's BL cover art, which was of course based on the
reference drawings, but Doug added some creative flourishes, like the
module that is carrying a bunch of loose barrels or spheres or drums.

Bottom line is that the minis are absolutely accurate and based on our GDW
designs to the extent that is humanly possible.

Yeah, they need to "clip." That was the problem with doing them in white
metal like that. They have to be glued, and that defeats the purpose of
the reconfigurable Clipper.

Dave

> I would assume the RAFM miniatures were based on that work? Would have
> loved to see a simple schematic identifying what's what on the molds.
> Always had the desire to cast a slightly bigger scale in resin and make
> them actually "clip" or something like that.
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:51 PM, <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> They existed in draft print-out form about 18 or so years ago. He used a
>> simple graphical/drafting program.

Got it. Well it was a miniature, not a you so I didn't expect it
to actually clip. I have a few extra modules especially weapons
since I have at least 3 of the parallel mount bay modules, but
only one whole spine so never put it together. If I could find
more, I would happily build 2 or 3
A configurable plastic toy would be bad ass!
---
from my T989

wrote:


They weren't based on the deckplans, but on the reference art we
produced
for the basic Clipper "spine" plus the Manta fuel skimmer, plus
the
200-ton modules, 100-ton modules, 50-ton modules, etc. They may
have done
the "bay mounted" semi-spinal weapon based on our verbal
guidance.

Actually, that may not be entirely true. They may have based part
of their
mini on Doug Chaffee's BL cover art, which was of course based on
the
reference drawings, but Doug added some creative flourishes, like
the
module that is carrying a bunch of loose barrels or spheres or
drums.

Bottom line is that the minis are absolutely accurate and based
on our GDW
designs to the extent that is humanly possible.

Yeah, they need to "clip." That was the problem with doing them
in white
metal like that. They have to be glued, and that defeats the
purpose of
the reconfigurable Clipper.

Dave

> I would assume the RAFM miniatures were based on that work?
Would have
> loved to see a simple schematic identifying what's what on the
molds.
> Always had the desire to cast a slightly bigger scale in resin
and make
> them actually "clip" or something like that.
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:51 PM, <
<> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> They existed in draft print-out form about 18 or so years ago.
He used a
>> simple graphical/drafting program.

If you're just doing it for personal use to play the game, as opposed to
trying to sell them to infringe on Marc's intellectual property rights, I
don't see the harm. The fact that you are asking the question is good, as
it shows you are trying to do it the right way. However, I am not a
lawyer.

Also, how does a print on demand place make copies of metal miniatures?

You mean like cardboard fold-ups? You could do that on a personal printer
or photocopier. Just don't go into business selling them.

Still not a lawyer,

Dave

> Now would I get in trouble if I had a print on demand place make me some
> ships
> that where comparable with the Ad Astra stuff? I am looking to build some
> fleets.

> Got it. Well it was a miniature, not a you so I didn't expect it to
actually clip. I have a few extra modules especially weapons since I
have at least 3 of the parallel mount bay modules, but only one whole
spine so never put > it together. If I could find more, I would happily
build 2 or 3

The mini as built was the original "short" Clipper, not the later
Maggart-class "stretch" Clippers. To build a Maggart you'd have to
cannibalize a couple of the kits.

Like I said, you should be able to call or e-mail RAFM and get some more
sets of parts.

> A configurable plastic toy would be bad ass!

Yes, I would have loved one of those. Maybe would have been some if we'd
ever done the "Star Vikings" board game. But that got sent into an
alternative universe when we decided to go the DJ route.

Dave

Not for sale just for me.
No,look at shapeways.That is who I was thinking of. There are a couple of other
companies that do the same type of service. I would not do metal,plactic.
Cheaper and easier to make.

________________________________
Sent: Mon, June 25, 2012 4:37:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Credit where credit is due

If you're just doing it for personal use to play the game, as opposed to
trying to sell them to infringe on Marc's intellectual property rights, I
don't see the harm. The fact that you are asking the question is good, as
it shows you are trying to do it the right way. However, I am not a
lawyer.

Also, how does a print on demand place make copies of metal miniatures?

You mean like cardboard fold-ups? You could do that on a personal printer
or photocopier. Just don't go into business selling them.

Still not a lawyer,

Dave

> Now would I get in trouble if I had a print on demand place make me some
> ships
> that where comparable with the Ad Astra stuff? I am looking to build some
> fleets.

> Not for sale just for me.
> No,look at shapeways.That is who I was thinking of. There are a couple of
> other
> companies that do the same type of service. I would not do metal,plactic.
> Cheaper and easier to make.

I had no idea there were places that could do that for you. I've been
living under a rock.

If you're saying, "here are these Ad Astra white metal minis, make some
plastic ones for me," I imagine AA would have a problem with that, and
Shapeways should have problems doing it.

If you're saying, "here are some vector graphics I made, made some plastic
ones for me," and you're going to use them with AA's Full Thrust game,
that's not a problem.

There are lots of grey areas in making representations of things, but I
cannot give you a reliable guide as to where exactly is the line that you
need to stay on the correct side of. Does perhaps Shapeways provide
guidance on, "sorry, we can't copy that, that belongs to someone"?

Dave

Oh wow, didn't think RAFM would still sell them. Don't see anything on
their site about TNE, but think I'll hit them up for a couple extra
clippers and parts.

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 2:43 PM, <> wrote:

>
> > Got it. Well it was a miniature, not a you so I didn't expect it to
> actually clip. I have a few extra modules especially weapons since I
> have at least 3 of the parallel mount bay modules, but only one whole
> spine so never put > it together. If I could find more, I would happily
> build 2 or 3
>
> The mini as built was the original "short" Clipper, not the later
> Maggart-class "stretch" Clippers. To build a Maggart you'd have to
> cannibalize a couple of the kits.
>
> Like I said, you should be able to call or e-mail RAFM and get some more
> sets of parts.
>
>
> > A configurable plastic toy would be bad ass!
>
> Yes, I would have loved one of those. Maybe would have been some if we'd
> ever done the "Star Vikings" board game. But that got sent into an
> alternative universe when we decided to go the DJ route.
>
> Dave
>
>
>

cool. I got a lawyer friend I will check with. and no I would not "recast" The
AA minis. I would make new ships of other designs/classes they do not have.

________________________________
Sent: Mon, June 25, 2012 5:00:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Credit where credit is due

> Not for sale just for me.
> No,look at shapeways.That is who I was thinking of. There are a couple of
> other
> companies that do the same type of service. I would not do metal,plactic.
> Cheaper and easier to make.

I had no idea there were places that could do that for you. I've been
living under a rock.

If you're saying, "here are these Ad Astra white metal minis, make some
plastic ones for me," I imagine AA would have a problem with that, and
Shapeways should have problems doing it.

If you're saying, "here are some vector graphics I made, made some plastic
ones for me," and you're going to use them with AA's Full Thrust game,
that's not a problem.

There are lots of grey areas in making representations of things, but I
cannot give you a reliable guide as to where exactly is the line that you
need to stay on the correct side of. Does perhaps Shapeways provide
guidance on, "sorry, we can't copy that, that belongs to someone"?

Dave

I was surprised as well, but they seemed to have plenty lying around, or
easy to mold up a set. You just had to know what you wanted and tell them.

> Oh wow, didn't think RAFM would still sell them. Don't see anything on
> their site about TNE, but think I'll hit them up for a couple extra
> clippers and parts.
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 2:43 PM, <> wrote:
>
>>
>>