Thread: Re: Hi...question/favor (Virus)

--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Norman wrote:
> If anybody has any knowledge or even interest maybe we can
> talk off forum as it's technically Traveller but not
> TNE.  Maybe you could also give me the quick rundown on
> TNE as the virus...I am assuming it has something to do with
> a Vampire fleet?  I've got this book called Vampire
> fleets...it's not really gelling in my brain though. 
>
> thanks 
> Norm

Vampire Fleets were caused by Virus.

Virus was originally a silicon based life form that was molded into a weapon by the Third Imperium. They figured that if you redesigned the lifeform into a chip, you could fire the chip into an enemy ship, and the silicon lifeform would take over the enemy ship, shut it down, and you would capture it. It had a high mutation rate to get around

Sounds easy?

It got loose, and was unfinished. The only real directives it had understood was suicide. The first version was the Suicider virus, which only sent out a couple copies before killing whatever it was in. Ships crash, life support systems on a colony shut down, pest control robots eliminate human vermin, etc.

It soon mutated into a virus tat caused other stuff to suicide, instead of suiciding itself.

>From there, there are other variants that exist, due to mutation causing philosophy changes in the virus code/structure.

As a result, the interconnected network of technology that we take for granted cannot exist. If the comm system is connected to the computer core 24/7, all it takes is a single Virus infected unit (referred to as Vampires) to transmit the code into your comm system, and it is running in your computer, and your own ship will try to kill you.

Hope this helps. Here is the Traveller wiki site on Virus:
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Virus/TNE

Todd Kes

--- In , Todd Kes <khartoum@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Norman wrote:
> > If anybody has any knowledge or even interest maybe we can
> > talk off forum as it's technically Traveller but not
> > TNE.  Maybe you could also give me the quick rundown on
> > TNE as the virus...I am assuming it has something to do with
> > a Vampire fleet?  I've got this book called Vampire
> > fleets...it's not really gelling in my brain though. 
> >
> > thanks 
> > Norm normpavlov@...
>

The other nasty bit is that Virus as written could burn it's 'code' into the hardware of the computer systems that it infected so there was no real way to get rid of it once infected. This was a byproduct of the original silicone lifeform from which they bred Virus. About the only way to get rid of Virus would be to write over the code with another Viral type.

A LOT of people in the Traveller community could not swallow the idea of Virus. There were epic, epic flame wars on the net over Virus. Most of the TNE types won't go near the regular traveller boards to avoid flaming nastiness.

If you can read the CT adventure 'Signal GK' it goes through the discovery of the original silicone lifeforms that were the basis of Virus.

Matt

Okay thanks but I am starting to get bad dreams concerning zombies but being spread around by tainted computers....okay that may be why some people don't want to deal with it..... but I think it's cool! :)

It's been a very long time but I will find the original Signal CK and read it. It will be like the first time... again. :)

thanks
Norm

--- In , "Matt" <helvorn@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Todd Kes <khartoum@> wrote:
> >
> > --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Norman wrote:
> > > If anybody has any knowledge or even interest maybe we can
> > > talk off forum as it's technically Traveller but not
> > > TNE.  Maybe you could also give me the quick rundown on
> > > TNE as the virus...I am assuming it has something to do with
> > > a Vampire fleet?  I've got this book called Vampire
> > > fleets...it's not really gelling in my brain though. 
> > >
> > > thanks 
> > > Norm normpavlov@
> >
>
> The other nasty bit is that Virus as written could burn it's 'code' into the hardware of the computer systems that it infected so there was no real way to get rid of it once infected. This was a byproduct of the original silicone lifeform from which they bred Virus. About the only way to get rid of Virus would be to write over the code with another Viral type.
>
> A LOT of people in the Traveller community could not swallow the idea of Virus. There were epic, epic flame wars on the net over Virus. Most of the TNE types won't go near the regular traveller boards to avoid flaming nastiness.
>
> If you can read the CT adventure 'Signal GK' it goes through the discovery of the original silicone lifeforms that were the basis of Virus.
>
> Matt
>

--- In , "Matt" wrote:
>
>
> The other nasty bit is that Virus as written could burn it's 'code'
into the hardware of the computer systems that it infected so there was
no real way to get rid of it once infected. This was a byproduct of the
original silicone lifeform from which they bred Virus. About the only
way to get rid of Virus would be to write over the code with another
Viral type.
>
> A LOT of people in the Traveller community could not swallow the idea
of Virus. There were epic, epic flame wars on the net over Virus. Most
of the TNE types won't go near the regular traveller boards to avoid
flaming nastiness.
>
> If you can read the CT adventure 'Signal GK' it goes through the
discovery of the original silicone lifeforms that were the basis of
Virus.
>
> Matt
>

At the risk of sounding like a dick....

Silicon is what computer chips are made from.

Silicone is what they use to make caulk and breast implants.

Sorry, as a former chemical engineer, it's a pet peeve of mine. =)

And I second what Matt wrote about the Traveller community's reaction to
Virus. I was very happy, back in the day, when I found the old TNE-RCES
ml over at Silent-Tower. But when I left the TML, they were complaining
about the poor quality of T4.

\_/
DED

For many the Virus was a unneccesary way to end the rebellion. However, GDW with a little help of DGP had written themselves into a corner and did not have a plan on how to end the rebellion in a proper manner.

personally I liked it the way things “ended” in MT/Hard Times. Traveller struggled under the massive weight of canon that was frankly impossible for new players and authors wanna-be (like myself) to digest. When I came to Traveller in 88, most of the CT books was not available. MT was in many ways half-baked riddled with errors. For a newbie like me it was cool, but when the warts did come out it wasn’t pretty.

I don’t think the virus was the main reason for the upheaval. Remember TNE was GDW’s best selling game. The main reason for the upheaval was the end of the empire. had you ended it in any other way with more or less the same result it would still be flame wars.

T4 was a catastrophy for Traveller. Hadn’t it been for resourceful fans, we might not have seen the current edition of Traveller.

--
Roger Malmstein
www.travellerfreeport.com

From: DED
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 3:31 PM
To:
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Hi...question/favor (Virus)

At the risk of sounding like a dick....

Silicon is what computer chips are made from.

Silicone is what they use to make caulk and breast implants.

Sorry, as a former chemical engineer, it's a pet peeve of mine. =)

And I second what Matt wrote about the Traveller community's reaction to Virus. I was very happy, back in the day, when I found the old TNE-RCES ml over at Silent-Tower. But when I left the TML, they were complaining about the poor quality of T4.

\_/
DED

--- In , "DED" <dedly@...> wrote:
> At the risk of sounding like a dick....
> Silicon is what computer chips are made from.
> Silicone is what they use to make caulk and breast implants.
> Sorry, as a former chemical engineer, it's a pet peeve of mine. =)

While your point is probably correct, this quote from WIKIPEDIA [yeah, I know ... but it is a convenient source] suggests that intelligent space virus chips [*snicker*] might be both silicon (for its electrical properties) and silicone (for durability in harsh environments).

"Electronics
Electronic components are sometimes encased in silicone to increase stability against mechanical and electrical shock, radiation and vibration, a process called "potting".

Silicones are used where durability and high performance are demanded of components under hard conditions, such as in space (satellite technology). They are selected over polyurethane or epoxy encapsulation when a wide operating temperature range is required (&#8722;65 to 315 °C). Silicones also have the advantage of little exothermic heat rise during cure, low toxicity, good electrical properties and high purity.

The use of silicones in electronics is not without problems, however. Silicones are relatively expensive and can be attacked by solvents.[9] Silicone easily migrates as either a liquid or vapor onto other components."

--- In , "Roger Malmstein" <starwolf@...> wrote:
>
> For many the Virus was a unneccesary way to end the rebellion. However, GDW with a little help of DGP had written themselves into a corner and did not have a plan on how to end the rebellion in a proper manner.
>

When the Rebellion plotline was started, the proposed end was a fractured and exhausted Imperial States. That was abandoned at some unknown point. DGP did much of the driving through the first half to two-thirds of the Rebellion. Then GDW started to reclaim it, resulting in Hard Times.

The Virus was intended to have two results: It ended the Rebellion *immediately*; and it paved the way for true lower-tech AI.

> personally I liked it the way things ended in MT/Hard Times.

Hard Times is a great setting except for its placement in a continuing downward spiral. While the New Era allows for PCs to be significant just doing what PCs do, to have a major effect during HT you had to be a superhero.

>
> I don't think the virus was the main reason for the upheaval. Remember TNE was GDW's best selling game. The main reason for the upheaval was the end of the empire. had you ended it in any other way with more or less the same result it would still be flame wars.

Yes and no. I was witness to the TML's screaming fits. The TNE specific fits were almost entirely about the technical impossibility of Virus. Without it, whatever other cause or result GDW used to bring the Rebellion to a close would have seen complaints, but would probably not have been anywhere near as loud, angry, or divisive as Virus proved to be.

>
> T4 was a catastrophy for Traveller. Hadn't it been for resourceful fans, we might not have seen the current edition of Traveller.

No argument there. Virus haters notwithstanding, T4 was Traveller's darkest hour.

I was there for the TML screaming fits too.

My take was that whatever story GDW had used to reboot the Traveller
Universe would have met with the same response.

Let's face it, complaining about something being a problem because it's
technically impossible is scarcely rational in a setting with Faster Than
Light travel, anti-gravity and inertialess propulsion systems.

Never mind Grandfather Ancient's back pocket...

On 20 Oct 2011 at 12:32, Arthur P wrote:

> --- In , "DED" <dedly@...> wrote:
> > At the risk of sounding like a dick....
> > Silicon is what computer chips are made from.
> > Silicone is what they use to make caulk and breast implants.
> > Sorry, as a former chemical engineer, it's a pet peeve of mine. =)

> While your point is probably correct, this quote from WIKIPEDIA
> [yeah, I know ... but it is a convenient source] suggests that
> intelligent space virus chips [*snicker*] might be both silicon (for
> its electrical properties) and silicone (for durability in harsh
> environments).

> "Electronics Electronic components are sometimes encased in silicone
> to increase stability against mechanical and electrical shock,
> radiation and vibration, a process called "potting".

> Silicones are used where durability and high performance are
> demanded of components under hard conditions, such as in space
> (satellite technology). They are selected over polyurethane or epoxy
> encapsulation when a wide operating temperature range is required
> (&#8722;65 to 315 °C). Silicones also have the advantage of little
> exothermic heat rise during cure, low toxicity, good electrical
> properties and high purity.

> The use of silicones in electronics is not without problems,
> however. Silicones are relatively expensive and can be attacked by
> solvents.[9] Silicone easily migrates as either a liquid or vapor
> onto other components."

You don't want to "pot" computer chips unless they are really slow.
It'll keep in the heat, which is *bad* for the chip.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com

Folks just do not like their comfort zones pulled out from under them. In
times like that for any RPG I have always felt just don't buy the new stuff
(you vote with your pocket book) and keep using the setting and materials
provided.

Its not like it invalidated everything up to that point.

An honest beef could be raised that GDW wasn't going to support older
version any longer or at all. However I can only think of 2 rpg game systems
that have stayed true to their core mechanics over the years for the most
part. GURPS and Palladium. Regardless if you like them or not the basic core
mechanics and settings they have provided over the last decade and a half
are pretty consistent. I should note I don't prefer either system over any
others.

But that is probably a different discussion for another group :)

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Axel <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I was there for the TML screaming fits too.
>
> My take was that whatever story GDW had used to reboot the Traveller
> Universe would have met with the same response.
>
> Let's face it, complaining about something being a problem because it's
> technically impossible is scarcely rational in a setting with Faster Than
> Light travel, anti-gravity and inertialess propulsion systems.
>
> Never mind Grandfather Ancient's back pocket...
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

--- In , "DED" <dedly@...> wrote:
>
>
> At the risk of sounding like a dick....
>
> Silicon is what computer chips are made from.
>
> Silicone is what they use to make caulk and breast implants.
>
> Sorry, as a former chemical engineer, it's a pet peeve of mine. =)
>

Consider the errant 'e' a typo :) I work with herds of PhD chemists so I get schooled in my chemistry all day long...

> And I second what Matt wrote about the Traveller community's reaction to Virus. I was very happy, back in the day, when I found the old TNE-RCES ml over at Silent-Tower. But when I left the TML, they were complaining about the poor quality of T4.
>

It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community over TNE.

Matt

--- In , "Roger Malmstein" <starwolf@...> wrote:
>
> For many the Virus was a unneccesary way to end the rebellion. However, GDW with a little help of DGP had written themselves into a corner and did not have a plan on how to end the rebellion in a proper manner.
>
> personally I liked it the way things “ended” in MT/Hard Times. Traveller struggled under the massive weight of canon that was frankly impossible for new players and authors wanna-be (like myself) to digest. When I came to Traveller in 88, most of the CT books was not available. MT was in many ways half-baked riddled with errors. For a newbie like me it was cool, but when the warts did come out it wasn’t pretty.
>
> I don’t think the virus was the main reason for the upheaval. Remember TNE was GDW’s best selling game. The main reason for the upheaval was the end of the empire. had you ended it in any other way with more or less the same result it would still be flame wars.
>

I personally thought that the Hard Times and Diaspora sector books were some of the best stuff put out by GDW. You probably could have continued to role play in the ruins of the 3I without the need for a clean sweep like Virus. Still, I can see wanting to start TNE without the baggage of MT/Hard Times and the Classic stuff.

I agree that the old guard on the TML would have been pissed no matter how you swept the 3I away. I had less problem with Virus than with the "Empress Wave" or whatever was heading out from the Core.

Matt

>________________________________
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Hi...question/favor (Virus)
>
>
> 
>On 20 Oct 2011 at 12:32, Arthur P wrote:
>
>> --- In , "DED" <dedly@...> wrote:
>> > At the risk of sounding like a dick....
>> > Silicon is what computer chips are made from.
>> > Silicone is what they use to make caulk and breast implants.
>> > Sorry, as a former chemical engineer, it's a pet peeve of mine. =)
>
>> While your point is probably correct, this quote from WIKIPEDIA
>> [yeah, I know ... but it is a convenient source] suggests that
>> intelligent space virus chips [*snicker*] might be both silicon (for
>> its electrical properties) and silicone (for durability in harsh
>> environments).
>
>> "Electronics Electronic components are sometimes encased in silicone
>> to increase stability against mechanical and electrical shock,
>> radiation and vibration, a process called "potting".
>
>> Silicones are used where durability and high performance are
>> demanded of components under hard conditions, such as in space
>> (satellite technology). They are selected over polyurethane or epoxy
>> encapsulation when a wide operating temperature range is required
>> (&#8722;65 to 315 °C). Silicones also have the advantage of little
>> exothermic heat rise during cure, low toxicity, good electrical
>> properties and high purity.
>
>> The use of silicones in electronics is not without problems,
>> however. Silicones are relatively expensive and can be attacked by
>> solvents.[9] Silicone easily migrates as either a liquid or vapor
>> onto other components."
>
>You don't want to "pot" computer chips unless they are really slow.
>It'll keep in the heat, which is *bad* for the chip.
>**** True enough, but advanced techniques might call for a cooling system the assembly might then be potted ...
>
>--
>Ret
>
>
>
>

--- In , "James" <gypsycomet@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hard Times is a great setting except for its placement in a continuing downward spiral. While the New Era allows for PCs to be significant just doing what PCs do, to have a major effect during HT you had to be a superhero.
>

Actually I liked Hard Times because I felt the PC's could be much more significant players than in the Rebellion or in the CT eras. There was just so much crashing down in Hard Times that you really had to do some brutal picking and choosing about where you made a difference.

TNE fell so far that there was just about no other way but up. Hard Times could and was still a ways from the bottom.

> >
> > I don't think the virus was the main reason for the upheaval. Remember TNE was GDW's best selling game. The main reason for the upheaval was the end of the empire. had you ended it in any other way with more or less the same result it would still be flame wars.
>
> Yes and no. I was witness to the TML's screaming fits. The TNE specific fits were almost entirely about the technical impossibility of Virus. Without it, whatever other cause or result GDW used to bring the Rebellion to a close would have seen complaints, but would probably not have been anywhere near as loud, angry, or divisive as Virus proved to be.
>

My understanding was people utterly refused to suspend disbelief about Virus and it went downhill from there.

Matt

I've always been a fan of the TNE era.  Virus was, a tool nothing more nothing less, it was the way GDW decided to do away with it all because they couldn't figure out a better way to restart things.  The nice thing about TNE and Hardtimes for that matter was that the players could be big fish in a small pond, their decisions mattered and could change the course of history.  In CT and MT the players were very much insignificant fish in an ocean, NOTHING they did short of assassinating one of the major players would ever amount to anything more than the ripples of a pebble tossed into an ocean.

I like the way a lot of the Hardtimes material found it's way into TNE, it was a nice carry over and it felt both good and slightly sad to encounter things or people that you remembered from that era in TNE.

----- Original Message -----
From: Matt <>
Date: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:52 am
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Hi...question/favor (Virus)
To:

>
>
> --- In , "James"
> <gypsycomet@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hard Times is a great setting except for its placement in a
> continuing downward spiral.  While the New Era allows for
> PCs to be significant just doing what PCs do, to have a major
> effect during HT you had to be a superhero.
> >
>
> Actually I liked Hard Times because I felt the PC's could be
> much more significant players than in the Rebellion or in the CT
> eras.  There was just so much crashing down in Hard Times
> that you really had to do some brutal picking and choosing about
> where you made a difference.
>
> TNE fell so far that there was just about no other way but
> up.  Hard Times could and was still a ways from the bottom.
>
> > >
> > > I don't think the virus was the main reason for the
> upheaval. Remember TNE was GDW's best selling game. The main
> reason for the upheaval was the end of the empire. had you ended
> it in any other way with more or less the same result it would
> still be flame wars.
> >
> > Yes and no. I was witness to the TML's screaming fits. 
> The TNE specific fits were almost entirely about the technical
> impossibility of Virus.  Without it, whatever other cause
> or result GDW used to bring the Rebellion to a close would have
> seen complaints, but would probably not have been anywhere near
> as loud, angry, or divisive as Virus proved to be.
> >
>
> My understanding was people utterly refused to suspend disbelief
> about Virus and it went downhill from there.
>
> Matt
>
>

On 21/10/2011 01:55, Matt wrote:

> It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community over TNE.

I agree. It's what started the fragmentation of the Traveller community.
And now it's completely fragmented.

Best regards,

Ewan
--


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
Laurence Binyon

My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 09:51, Ewan Quibell <> wrote:

> On 21/10/2011 01:55, Matt wrote:
>
> > It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community over
> TNE.
>
> I agree. It's what started the fragmentation of the Traveller community.
> And now it's completely fragmented.

Well, IMHO TNE was the final nail for a number of reasons, not just virus.

1st off it was a radical edition change, from MT/DGP mechanics to the GDW
House System, this was huge. While a lot of people didn't particularly like
MT (I for one pretty much Loath it for how buggy and typo ridden it was), it
was a huge change from the kinda linear evolution that was CT/MT. Or to say
MT was backwards compatible with CT, TNE wasn't.

2nd was the reset, a lot of people where upset with the wiping away of the
Imperium, it sometimes amazes me how many Big Government fans there
is amongst the fan base. Another part of this was the
re-setting of technical assumptions, TL15 was no longer the requirement for
things to work. Roundabout is They fixed stuff that had been terminally
broken and people bitched about it. So really it was a change, and well a
lot of gamers don't like it.

3rd and last was Virus, which always surprised me, as the genesis of it was
in two separate CT/MT products, and it made sense in terms of the previous
setting. I think what it really did was piss off the Anti-AI faction, as it
allowed AI into Traveller at lower than the "cannon" TLs. Again this is my
opinion after 20 years of TML membership and related digital fandom. (For
the record it was sometime in the late 78-79 when acquired my 1st traveller
books, so in my heart CT is the only true edition)

Ok, I liked TNE both the setting and the rules. But to be honest if I where
going to run a game in the ERA I would use the 1248 books by Martin J.
Dougherty, with MgT's character generation and task resolution,
and technical details from CT/Striker/FF&S (Book2 for ship design, Book5 is
ok for fleet combat but doesn't scale to RPG levels ver well).

As for fragmentation of the fan base, there is too much choice for it not to
be fragmented, with at least seven versions available, and only 3 are
mechanically interchangeable CT, MT & MgT. Coupled with 3 or 4 active Era to
play in, it can't help but fragment. What gets me is the antagonism between
groups who titularly are fans of the same core thing.
--
Evyn

I also started my "travelling" in '79, but with CT, I always felt that the
milieu was missing something critical, beyond simple game mechanics, it was
missing a frontier. everywhere the characters went in canon traveller,
pretty much, someone else had gone before.
TNE didn't rectify that per se, but put a more exploratory spin on things,
someone else had certainly been there before, but the pieces where so
broken, EVERYWHERE was a frontier.
And with the pieces so thoroughly broken, any group of PCs could quite
literally see themselves as movers and shakers.
I have had the pleasure of GMing the same people in both CT and TNE. and by
far, they had more fun with TNE. 'people' are understandable enemies, and
Virus, though difficult at first to conceptualize for the average joe, was
NOT the average NPC. it was not a Vargr or a Virushi or a Vilani!
well played, virus was a potential for unique and memorable encounters.
for all my attempts to make vampires memorable encounters, for whatever
reason, the PCs liked 'The Warden' most 8-)

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Evyn MacDude <> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 09:51, Ewan Quibell <> wrote:
>
>> On 21/10/2011 01:55, Matt wrote:
>>
>> > It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community over
>> TNE.
>>
>> I agree. It's what started the fragmentation of the Traveller community.
>> And now it's completely fragmented.
>
>
> Well, IMHO TNE was the final nail for a number of reasons, not just virus.
>
> 1st off it was a radical edition change, from MT/DGP mechanics to the GDW
> House System, this was huge. While a lot of people didn't particularly like
> MT (I for one pretty much Loath it for how buggy and typo ridden it was), it
> was a huge change from the kinda linear evolution that was CT/MT. Or to say
> MT was backwards compatible with CT, TNE wasn't.
>
> 2nd was the reset, a lot of people where upset with the wiping away of the
> Imperium, it sometimes amazes me how many Big Government fans there
> is amongst the fan base. Another part of this was the
> re-setting of technical assumptions, TL15 was no longer the requirement for
> things to work. Roundabout is They fixed stuff that had been terminally
> broken and people bitched about it. So really it was a change, and well a
> lot of gamers don't like it.
>
> 3rd and last was Virus, which always surprised me, as the genesis of it was
> in two separate CT/MT products, and it made sense in terms of the previous
> setting. I think what it really did was piss off the Anti-AI faction, as it
> allowed AI into Traveller at lower than the "cannon" TLs. Again this is my
> opinion after 20 years of TML membership and related digital fandom. (For
> the record it was sometime in the late 78-79 when acquired my 1st traveller
> books, so in my heart CT is the only true edition)
>
> Ok, I liked TNE both the setting and the rules. But to be honest if I where
> going to run a game in the ERA I would use the 1248 books by Martin J.
> Dougherty, with MgT's character generation and task resolution,
> and technical details from CT/Striker/FF&S (Book2 for ship design, Book5 is
> ok for fleet combat but doesn't scale to RPG levels ver well).
>
> As for fragmentation of the fan base, there is too much choice for it not
> to be fragmented, with at least seven versions available, and only 3 are
> mechanically interchangeable CT, MT & MgT. Coupled with 3 or 4 active Era to
> play in, it can't help but fragment. What gets me is the antagonism between
> groups who titularly are fans of the same core thing.
> --
> Evyn
>
>
>

--
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
for our fire control system."

I would only disagree slightly with this sentiment.

The cannon only covered a fraction of the territory the Milky Way galaxy
covers.

Diameter: ~100k light years
Thickness: ~1,000 light years
Volume: ~7.85 billion light years
Stars: ~200-400 billion stars

If players really wanted to explore it was there but the GM had to work at
it.

However I realize that like myself most GMs have limits to how much prep
work their willing or have time to do.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:51 PM, allen carpenter
<>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I also started my "travelling" in '79, but with CT, I always felt that the
> milieu was missing something critical, beyond simple game mechanics, it was
> missing a frontier. everywhere the characters went in canon traveller,
> pretty much, someone else had gone before.
> TNE didn't rectify that per se, but put a more exploratory spin on things,
> someone else had certainly been there before, but the pieces where so
> broken, EVERYWHERE was a frontier.
> And with the pieces so thoroughly broken, any group of PCs could quite
> literally see themselves as movers and shakers.
> I have had the pleasure of GMing the same people in both CT and TNE. and by
> far, they had more fun with TNE. 'people' are understandable enemies, and
> Virus, though difficult at first to conceptualize for the average joe, was
> NOT the average NPC. it was not a Vargr or a Virushi or a Vilani!
> well played, virus was a potential for unique and memorable encounters.
> for all my attempts to make vampires memorable encounters, for whatever
> reason, the PCs liked 'The Warden' most 8-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Evyn MacDude <>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 09:51, Ewan Quibell <> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/10/2011 01:55, Matt wrote:
>>>
>>> > It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community over
>>> TNE.
>>>
>>> I agree. It's what started the fragmentation of the Traveller community.
>>> And now it's completely fragmented.
>>
>>
>> Well, IMHO TNE was the final nail for a number of reasons, not just
>> virus.
>>
>> 1st off it was a radical edition change, from MT/DGP mechanics to the GDW
>> House System, this was huge. While a lot of people didn't particularly like
>> MT (I for one pretty much Loath it for how buggy and typo ridden it was), it
>> was a huge change from the kinda linear evolution that was CT/MT. Or to say
>> MT was backwards compatible with CT, TNE wasn't.
>>
>> 2nd was the reset, a lot of people where upset with the wiping away of the
>> Imperium, it sometimes amazes me how many Big Government fans there
>> is amongst the fan base. Another part of this was the
>> re-setting of technical assumptions, TL15 was no longer the requirement for
>> things to work. Roundabout is They fixed stuff that had been terminally
>> broken and people bitched about it. So really it was a change, and well a
>> lot of gamers don't like it.
>>
>> 3rd and last was Virus, which always surprised me, as the genesis of it
>> was in two separate CT/MT products, and it made sense in terms of the
>> previous setting. I think what it really did was piss off the Anti-AI
>> faction, as it allowed AI into Traveller at lower than the "cannon" TLs.
>> Again this is my opinion after 20 years of TML membership and related
>> digital fandom. (For the record it was sometime in the late 78-79
>> when acquired my 1st traveller books, so in my heart CT is the only
>> true edition)
>>
>> Ok, I liked TNE both the setting and the rules. But to be honest if I
>> where going to run a game in the ERA I would use the 1248 books by Martin J.
>> Dougherty, with MgT's character generation and task resolution,
>> and technical details from CT/Striker/FF&S (Book2 for ship design, Book5 is
>> ok for fleet combat but doesn't scale to RPG levels ver well).
>>
>> As for fragmentation of the fan base, there is too much choice for it not
>> to be fragmented, with at least seven versions available, and only 3 are
>> mechanically interchangeable CT, MT & MgT. Coupled with 3 or 4 active Era to
>> play in, it can't help but fragment. What gets me is the antagonism between
>> groups who titularly are fans of the same core thing.
>> --
>> Evyn
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
> beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
> we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
> for our fire control system."
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

This is true, but while it was theoretically possible doing that with CT there was absolutely no published support for it. AFAIK all the published sector maps, adventures, and so forth were in charted space and centered around being merchants or mercenaries. There wasn't really anything to help out a GM that wanted to do a real exploration campaign, and I think that was a weakness in the original. It's definitely one of the things I like about TNE.

-JTD

"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane."

-Jimmy Buffet

On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:26 PM, John Potter wrote:

> I would only disagree slightly with this sentiment.
>
>
> The cannon only covered a fraction of the territory the Milky Way galaxy covers.
>
> Diameter: ~100k light years
> Thickness: ~1,000 light years
> Volume: ~7.85 billion light years
> Stars: ~200-400 billion stars
>
> If players really wanted to explore it was there but the GM had to work at it.
>
> However I realize that like myself most GMs have limits to how much prep work their willing or have time to do.
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:51 PM, allen carpenter <> wrote:
>
> I also started my "travelling" in '79, but with CT, I always felt that the milieu was missing something critical, beyond simple game mechanics, it was missing a frontier. everywhere the characters went in canon traveller, pretty much, someone else had gone before.
> TNE didn't rectify that per se, but put a more exploratory spin on things, someone else had certainly been there before, but the pieces where so broken, EVERYWHERE was a frontier.
> And with the pieces so thoroughly broken, any group of PCs could quite literally see themselves as movers and shakers.
> I have had the pleasure of GMing the same people in both CT and TNE. and by far, they had more fun with TNE. 'people' are understandable enemies, and Virus, though difficult at first to conceptualize for the average joe, was NOT the average NPC. it was not a Vargr or a Virushi or a Vilani!
> well played, virus was a potential for unique and memorable encounters.
> for all my attempts to make vampires memorable encounters, for whatever reason, the PCs liked 'The Warden' most 8-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Evyn MacDude <> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 09:51, Ewan Quibell <> wrote:
> On 21/10/2011 01:55, Matt wrote:
>
> > It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community over TNE.
>
> I agree. It's what started the fragmentation of the Traveller community.
> And now it's completely fragmented.
>
> Well, IMHO TNE was the final nail for a number of reasons, not just virus.
>
> 1st off it was a radical edition change, from MT/DGP mechanics to the GDW House System, this was huge. While a lot of people didn't particularly like MT (I for one pretty much Loath it for how buggy and typo ridden it was), it was a huge change from the kinda linear evolution that was CT/MT. Or to say MT was backwards compatible with CT, TNE wasn't.
>
> 2nd was the reset, a lot of people where upset with the wiping away of the Imperium, it sometimes amazes me how many Big Government fans there is amongst the fan base. Another part of this was the re-setting of technical assumptions, TL15 was no longer the requirement for things to work. Roundabout is They fixed stuff that had been terminally broken and people bitched about it. So really it was a change, and well a lot of gamers don't like it.
>
> 3rd and last was Virus, which always surprised me, as the genesis of it was in two separate CT/MT products, and it made sense in terms of the previous setting. I think what it really did was piss off the Anti-AI faction, as it allowed AI into Traveller at lower than the "cannon" TLs. Again this is my opinion after 20 years of TML membership and related digital fandom. (For the record it was sometime in the late 78-79 when acquired my 1st traveller books, so in my heart CT is the only true edition)
>
> Ok, I liked TNE both the setting and the rules. But to be honest if I where going to run a game in the ERA I would use the 1248 books by Martin J. Dougherty, with MgT's character generation and task resolution, and technical details from CT/Striker/FF&S (Book2 for ship design, Book5 is ok for fleet combat but doesn't scale to RPG levels ver well).
>
> As for fragmentation of the fan base, there is too much choice for it not to be fragmented, with at least seven versions available, and only 3 are mechanically interchangeable CT, MT & MgT. Coupled with 3 or 4 active Era to play in, it can't help but fragment. What gets me is the antagonism between groups who titularly are fans of the same core thing.
> --
> Evyn
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button for our fire control system."
>
>
>
>
> --
> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you would have been deserved.
>
>

i think this is why judges guild and paranoia press were the only usual
travellers supplements i bought 'back in the day'!
Sorag and the Ine Givar, ah what a proper nightmare!

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Jeff Dougherty <
> wrote:

> **
>
>
> This is true, but while it was theoretically possible doing that with CT
> there was absolutely no published support for it. AFAIK all the published
> sector maps, adventures, and so forth were in charted space and centered
> around being merchants or mercenaries. There wasn't really anything to help
> out a GM that wanted to do a real exploration campaign, and I think that was
> a weakness in the original. It's definitely one of the things I like about
> TNE.
>
> -JTD
>
> "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane."
>
> -Jimmy Buffet
>
>
>
> On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:26 PM, John Potter wrote:
>
>
>
> I would only disagree slightly with this sentiment.
>
> The cannon only covered a fraction of the territory the Milky Way galaxy
> covers.
>
> Diameter: ~100k light years
> Thickness: ~1,000 light years
> Volume: ~7.85 billion light years
> Stars: ~200-400 billion stars
>
> If players really wanted to explore it was there but the GM had to work at
> it.
>
> However I realize that like myself most GMs have limits to how much prep
> work their willing or have time to do.
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:51 PM, allen carpenter <
> > wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> I also started my "travelling" in '79, but with CT, I always felt that the
>> milieu was missing something critical, beyond simple game mechanics, it was
>> missing a frontier. everywhere the characters went in canon traveller,
>> pretty much, someone else had gone before.
>> TNE didn't rectify that per se, but put a more exploratory spin on things,
>> someone else had certainly been there before, but the pieces where so
>> broken, EVERYWHERE was a frontier.
>> And with the pieces so thoroughly broken, any group of PCs could quite
>> literally see themselves as movers and shakers.
>> I have had the pleasure of GMing the same people in both CT and TNE. and
>> by far, they had more fun with TNE. 'people' are understandable enemies, and
>> Virus, though difficult at first to conceptualize for the average joe, was
>> NOT the average NPC. it was not a Vargr or a Virushi or a Vilani!
>> well played, virus was a potential for unique and memorable encounters.
>> for all my attempts to make vampires memorable encounters, for whatever
>> reason, the PCs liked 'The Warden' most 8-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Evyn MacDude <>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 09:51, Ewan Quibell <> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/10/2011 01:55, Matt wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > It's really unfortunate about the split in the Traveller community
>>>> over TNE.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. It's what started the fragmentation of the Traveller community.
>>>> And now it's completely fragmented.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, IMHO TNE was the final nail for a number of reasons, not just
>>> virus.
>>>
>>> 1st off it was a radical edition change, from MT/DGP mechanics to the GDW
>>> House System, this was huge. While a lot of people didn't particularly like
>>> MT (I for one pretty much Loath it for how buggy and typo ridden it was), it
>>> was a huge change from the kinda linear evolution that was CT/MT. Or to say
>>> MT was backwards compatible with CT, TNE wasn't.
>>>
>>> 2nd was the reset, a lot of people where upset with the wiping away of
>>> the Imperium, it sometimes amazes me how many Big Government fans there
>>> is amongst the fan base. Another part of this was the
>>> re-setting of technical assumptions, TL15 was no longer the requirement for
>>> things to work. Roundabout is They fixed stuff that had been terminally
>>> broken and people bitched about it. So really it was a change, and well a
>>> lot of gamers don't like it.
>>>
>>> 3rd and last was Virus, which always surprised me, as the genesis of it
>>> was in two separate CT/MT products, and it made sense in terms of the
>>> previous setting. I think what it really did was piss off the Anti-AI
>>> faction, as it allowed AI into Traveller at lower than the "cannon" TLs.
>>> Again this is my opinion after 20 years of TML membership and related
>>> digital fandom. (For the record it was sometime in the late 78-79
>>> when acquired my 1st traveller books, so in my heart CT is the only
>>> true edition)
>>>
>>> Ok, I liked TNE both the setting and the rules. But to be honest if I
>>> where going to run a game in the ERA I would use the 1248 books by Martin J.
>>> Dougherty, with MgT's character generation and task resolution,
>>> and technical details from CT/Striker/FF&S (Book2 for ship design, Book5 is
>>> ok for fleet combat but doesn't scale to RPG levels ver well).
>>>
>>> As for fragmentation of the fan base, there is too much choice for it not
>>> to be fragmented, with at least seven versions available, and only 3 are
>>> mechanically interchangeable CT, MT & MgT. Coupled with 3 or 4 active Era to
>>> play in, it can't help but fragment. What gets me is the antagonism between
>>> groups who titularly are fans of the same core thing.
>>> --
>>> Evyn
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
>> beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
>> we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
>> for our fire control system."
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> would have been deserved.
>
>
>
>

--
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
for our fire control system."