Chuck wrote:
>What I have absolutely never understood about our "hobby" is the level of
>fanaticism that seems to appear.
You and me both, mate. I've concluded people can run amok over *anything*.
>I've got all of the editions of Traveller...
(we even made up our own AD&D version, predating T20 by some 10 years)
>... and I mix and match the pieces that work for me and ignore the ones
that don't.
>I'd like to think this is a balanced perspective on a "game" that is meant
to be an
>enjoyable experience for the participants.
YES!!! +10 (because +1 is not enough.)
Derek said:
>I never see knock down drag out D&D fights.
[EDIT: Rupert's response may have covered this, but...]
Hmmm, ISTR that there was at least some acrimony around the changes that
were made when version 2 came out ("...and THEY'VE CHANGED MAGIC
MISSILE!!!"), and a lot of people hated version 3 (although 3.5 seemed to be
accepted), but almost no long-term gamers liked v4, (many leaving for
Pathfinder). (V5 may be too little, too late??? Jury is still out.)
But I don't know if anyone received death threats (or at least threats of
physical harm); maybe Dave became a target because (a) he was Trav Line
Editor and had his name on the books, and (b) no-one outside really knew how
GDW worked, that it was a real collaboration, and that people such as Frank
and Loren et al signed off on Trav's direction just as much as Dave did?
And regarding the following comment from Dave:
>I know that when I was at GDW, employees of all the other companies (GDW,
>White Wolf, West End, FASA etc.) would mock us, "Ha-ha, your fans are
>insane,"
...here's a tagline in support:
"Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour. Teach
him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."
- as quoted by Steve Jackson in the Daily Illuminator, 3 November 2004
Personally - and I've mentioned this to Dave more than once - I think C. S.
Lewis' 50-year-old comment about "literature" in general is absolutely
applicable to what's happened with Traveller material:
"Matthew Arnold made the horrible prophecy that literature would
increasingly replace religion. It has, and its taken on all the features
of bitter persecution, great intolerance, and traffic in relics. All
literature becomes a sacred text. A sacred text is always exposed to the
most monstrous exegesis; hence we have the spectacle of some wretched
scholar taking a pure divertissement written in the seventeenth century and
getting the most profound ambiguities and social criticisms out of it, which
of course arent there at all . Its the discovery of the mares nest by the
pursuit of the red herring."
C.S. Lewis, Unreal Estates
This is exactly what has happened with some or our Trav community. Anything
with Marc's name on it is sacred, anything from TNE is heresy. And there is
bitter persecution. And there are profound ambiguities, such as someone
trying to predict Imperium-wide trade from figures given in Trillion Credit
Squadron - leading to the following tagline:
"I once described trying to analyze Traveller economics from the rules as
'Trying to explain the economics of transoceanic container trade by looking
at cross-Indian Ocean dhow traffic.'"
- Bruce Johnson
(I should point out, I'm in no way saying this is Marc's fault - his list of
mileaux inclues EVERYTHING. He's very catholic in his tastes.)
So much for humour. Maybe we should give up and discuss gun control?
<*runs*>
Anyway, to drop the acrimony (hopefully acrimoniously), I gonna turn to
another current topic.
Dave wrote:
>So when BL took it deliberately back to PC skills, that
>may have been jarring, depending on which lash-up of previous editions,
>pseudo-editions, and masquerading editions you had been using.
I've _always_ enjoyed it much more when PC's actually had the chance to
change the outcome of events. And TNE wasn't the first to try nd drag small
ship combat back out of the hands of the pure wargamers - I liked what the
Digest guys did with MegaTraveller: Ship Tactics, Engineering, Navigation,
Sensor Ops, and even Commo all finally got a "look-in". ;-)
So I've always relegated HG to big-ship combat, which is the niche filled by
Battlerider, right? (Disclaimer: I've never played BR, or even BL, even
though I own both. *embarrased shuffle*. Loved the pics and cardstock
pieces, tho'. ;-)
So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence starship
combat?
----------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
I prefer that PC have the opportunity to influence outcomes this engenders
the feeling of player agency which enforces and rewards player engagement.
Having my players invested in what is happening is important for story
telling IMO. So to that end having a game mechanic that allows them to
interact in 'some' way to 'attempt' to get a desired outcome also injects
tension because the player's can always fail.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 12:25 AM, 'David Jaques-Watson'
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Folks -
>
> Chuck wrote:
> >What I have absolutely never understood about our "hobby" is the level of
> >fanaticism that seems to appear.
>
> You and me both, mate. I've concluded people can run amok over *anything*.
>
> >I've got all of the editions of Traveller...
>
> (we even made up our own AD&D version, predating T20 by some 10 years)
>
> >... and I mix and match the pieces that work for me and ignore the ones
> that don't.
> >I'd like to think this is a balanced perspective on a "game" that is meant
> to be an
> >enjoyable experience for the participants.
>
> YES!!! +10 (because +1 is not enough.)
>
> Derek said:
> >I never see knock down drag out D&D fights.
>
> [EDIT: Rupert's response may have covered this, but...]
> Hmmm, ISTR that there was at least some acrimony around the changes that
> were made when version 2 came out ("...and THEY'VE CHANGED MAGIC
> MISSILE!!!"), and a lot of people hated version 3 (although 3.5 seemed to
> be
> accepted), but almost no long-term gamers liked v4, (many leaving for
> Pathfinder). (V5 may be too little, too late??? Jury is still out.)
>
> But I don't know if anyone received death threats (or at least threats of
> physical harm); maybe Dave became a target because (a) he was Trav Line
> Editor and had his name on the books, and (b) no-one outside really knew
> how
> GDW worked, that it was a real collaboration, and that people such as Frank
> and Loren et al signed off on Trav's direction just as much as Dave did?
>
> And regarding the following comment from Dave:
> >I know that when I was at GDW, employees of all the other companies (GDW,
> >White Wolf, West End, FASA etc.) would mock us, "Ha-ha, your fans are
> >insane,"
>
> ...here's a tagline in support:
> "Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour.
> Teach
> him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."
> - as quoted by Steve Jackson in the Daily Illuminator, 3 November 2004
>
> Personally - and I've mentioned this to Dave more than once - I think C. S.
> Lewis' 50-year-old comment about "literature" in general is absolutely
> applicable to what's happened with Traveller material:
>
> "Matthew Arnold made the horrible prophecy that literature would
> increasingly replace religion. It has, and it’s taken on all the features
> of bitter persecution, great intolerance, and traffic in relics. All
> literature becomes a sacred text. A sacred text is always exposed to the
> most monstrous exegesis; hence we have the spectacle of some wretched
> scholar taking a pure divertissement written in the seventeenth century and
> getting the most profound ambiguities and social criticisms out of it,
> which
> of course aren’t there at all…. It’s the discovery of the mare’s nest by
> the
> pursuit of the red herring."
> – C.S. Lewis, “Unreal Estates”
>
> This is exactly what has happened with some or our Trav community. Anything
> with Marc's name on it is sacred, anything from TNE is heresy. And there is
> bitter persecution. And there are profound ambiguities, such as someone
> trying to predict Imperium-wide trade from figures given in Trillion Credit
> Squadron - leading to the following tagline:
>
> "I once described trying to analyze Traveller economics from the rules as
> 'Trying to explain the economics of transoceanic container trade by looking
> at cross-Indian Ocean dhow traffic.'"
> - Bruce Johnson
>
> (I should point out, I'm in no way saying this is Marc's fault - his list
> of
> mileaux inclues EVERYTHING. He's very catholic in his tastes.)
>
> So much for humour. Maybe we should give up and discuss gun control?
> <*runs*>
>
> Anyway, to drop the acrimony (hopefully acrimoniously), I gonna turn to
> another current topic.
>
> Dave wrote:
> >So when BL took it deliberately back to PC skills, that
> >may have been jarring, depending on which lash-up of previous editions,
> >pseudo-editions, and masquerading editions you had been using.
>
> I've _always_ enjoyed it much more when PC's actually had the chance to
> change the outcome of events. And TNE wasn't the first to try nd drag small
> ship combat back out of the hands of the pure wargamers - I liked what the
> Digest guys did with MegaTraveller: Ship Tactics, Engineering, Navigation,
> Sensor Ops, and even Commo all finally got a "look-in". ;-)
>
> So I've always relegated HG to big-ship combat, which is the niche filled
> by
> Battlerider, right? (Disclaimer: I've never played BR, or even BL, even
> though I own both. *embarrased shuffle*. Loved the pics and cardstock
> pieces, tho'. ;-)
>
> So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence starship
> combat?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>
>
>
--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.
>>So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
starship combat?<<
Definitely can. What's the point in even having starship combat in a
game if the players can't influence the outcome? What's the point in
even playing a game if you just sit on the sidelines watching things
happen? Boring!
6 months ago I was really luck to join a group of Traveller players who each had their own campaign. They invited me set up my own campaign.
When I am refereeing, starship combat controlled by the PCs is a *must* in certain parts of the games.
THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.
And so do I. It is one of the best parts of the game. None of us had ever been part of a campaign where starship combat was a key ingredient.
Plus, my group of guys is the absolute best. I am very fortunate.
Danielle
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 11:46 AM, "DED [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
Hyphen wrote:
>>So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence starship combat?<<
Definitely can. What's the point in even having starship combat in a game if the players can't influence the outcome? What's the point in even playing a game if you just sit on the sidelines watching things happen? Boring!
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
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Gun control means using both hands... and dropping that chamax at more than 250 meters. :p
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 2:38 PM, "Danielle Antenucci [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
6 months ago I was really luck to join a group of Traveller players who each had their own campaign. They invited me set up my own campaign.
When I am refereeing, starship combat controlled by the PCs is a *must* in certain parts of the games.
THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.
And so do I. It is one of the best parts of the game. None of us had ever been part of a campaign where starship combat was a key ingredient.
Plus, my group of guys is the absolute best. I am very fortunate.
Danielle
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 11:46 AM, "DED [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
Hyphen wrote:
>>So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence starship combat?<<
Definitely can. What's the point in even having starship combat in a game if the players can't influence the outcome? What's the point in even playing a game if you just sit on the sidelines watching things happen? Boring!
\_/
DED
TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
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Frank had/has a tendency to turn things into wargames, for obvious and not
bad reasons. Sometimes those are valuable and useful. Where the wargames
crowd out the PC-based mechanics in an RPG you have to get the PCs back
in.
I think over time Frank found a better approach in the wargamization,
where "crew quality" was a clear place to insert the PC inputs.
> Dear Folks -
>
> Chuck wrote:
>>What I have absolutely never understood about our "hobby" is the level of
>>fanaticism that seems to appear.
>
> You and me both, mate. I've concluded people can run amok over *anything*.
>
>>I've got all of the editions of Traveller...
>
> (we even made up our own AD&D version, predating T20 by some 10 years)
>
>>... and I mix and match the pieces that work for me and ignore the ones
> that don't.
>>I'd like to think this is a balanced perspective on a "game" that is
>> meant
> to be an
>>enjoyable experience for the participants.
>
> YES!!! +10 (because +1 is not enough.)
>
> Derek said:
>>I never see knock down drag out D&D fights.
>
> [EDIT: Rupert's response may have covered this, but...]
> Hmmm, ISTR that there was at least some acrimony around the changes that
> were made when version 2 came out ("...and THEY'VE CHANGED MAGIC
> MISSILE!!!"), and a lot of people hated version 3 (although 3.5 seemed to
> be
> accepted), but almost no long-term gamers liked v4, (many leaving for
> Pathfinder). (V5 may be too little, too late??? Jury is still out.)
>
> But I don't know if anyone received death threats (or at least threats of
> physical harm); maybe Dave became a target because (a) he was Trav Line
> Editor and had his name on the books, and (b) no-one outside really knew
> how
> GDW worked, that it was a real collaboration, and that people such as
> Frank
> and Loren et al signed off on Trav's direction just as much as Dave did?
>
> And regarding the following comment from Dave:
>>I know that when I was at GDW, employees of all the other companies (GDW,
>>White Wolf, West End, FASA etc.) would mock us, "Ha-ha, your fans are
>>insane,"
>
> ...here's a tagline in support:
> "Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour.
> Teach
> him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."
> - as quoted by Steve Jackson in the Daily Illuminator, 3 November 2004
>
> Personally - and I've mentioned this to Dave more than once - I think C.
> S.
> Lewis' 50-year-old comment about "literature" in general is absolutely
> applicable to what's happened with Traveller material:
>
> "Matthew Arnold made the horrible prophecy that literature would
> increasingly replace religion. It has, and its taken on all the features
> of bitter persecution, great intolerance, and traffic in relics. All
> literature becomes a sacred text. A sacred text is always exposed to the
> most monstrous exegesis; hence we have the spectacle of some wretched
> scholar taking a pure divertissement written in the seventeenth century
> and
> getting the most profound ambiguities and social criticisms out of it,
> which
> of course arent there at all . Its the discovery of the mares nest by
> the
> pursuit of the red herring."
> C.S. Lewis, Unreal Estates
>
> This is exactly what has happened with some or our Trav community.
> Anything
> with Marc's name on it is sacred, anything from TNE is heresy. And there
> is
> bitter persecution. And there are profound ambiguities, such as someone
> trying to predict Imperium-wide trade from figures given in Trillion
> Credit
> Squadron - leading to the following tagline:
>
> "I once described trying to analyze Traveller economics from the rules as
> 'Trying to explain the economics of transoceanic container trade by
> looking
> at cross-Indian Ocean dhow traffic.'"
> - Bruce Johnson
>
> (I should point out, I'm in no way saying this is Marc's fault - his list
> of
> mileaux inclues EVERYTHING. He's very catholic in his tastes.)
>
> So much for humour. Maybe we should give up and discuss gun control?
> <*runs*>
>
> Anyway, to drop the acrimony (hopefully acrimoniously), I gonna turn to
> another current topic.
>
> Dave wrote:
>>So when BL took it deliberately back to PC skills, that
>>may have been jarring, depending on which lash-up of previous editions,
>>pseudo-editions, and masquerading editions you had been using.
>
> I've _always_ enjoyed it much more when PC's actually had the chance to
> change the outcome of events. And TNE wasn't the first to try nd drag
> small
> ship combat back out of the hands of the pure wargamers - I liked what the
> Digest guys did with MegaTraveller: Ship Tactics, Engineering, Navigation,
> Sensor Ops, and even Commo all finally got a "look-in". ;-)
>
> So I've always relegated HG to big-ship combat, which is the niche filled
> by
> Battlerider, right? (Disclaimer: I've never played BR, or even BL, even
> though I own both. *embarrased shuffle*. Loved the pics and cardstock
> pieces, tho'. ;-)
>
> So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
> starship
> combat?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>
>
> 6 months ago I was really luck to join a group of Traveller players who
> each had their own campaign.  They invited me set up my own campaign.
> When I am refereeing, starship combat controlled by the PCs is a *must* in
> certain parts of the games.
> THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.
> And so do I. Â It is one of the best parts of the game. Â None of us had
> ever been part of a campaign where starship combat was a key ingredient.
> Plus, my group of guys is the absolute best. Â I am very fortunate.
> Danielle
>
>
> On Saturday, February 6, 2016 11:46 AM, "DED
> [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>
>
> Â Hyphen wrote:
>
> >>So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
> starship combat?<<
>
> Definitely can. What's the point in even having starship combat in a game
> if the players can't influence the outcome? What's the point in even
> playing a game if you just sit on the sidelines watching things happen?
> Boring!
>
> \_/
> DED
> TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
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We use Mongoose Traveller High Guard for starship combat. So far we only fight ships under 500 tons. I don't feel prepared to get too big yet. It has been quite simple and easy and adds a nice fun element into our game. Most of our adventures have been investigations and puzzle solving with intermittent bar brawls and shootouts.
Danielle
Sent on the move with my iPhone.
> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:05 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> What system do you use for starship combat?
>
> > 6 months ago I was really luck to join a group of Traveller players who
> > each had their own campaign. They invited me set up my own campaign.
> > When I am refereeing, starship combat controlled by the PCs is a *must* in
> > certain parts of the games.
> > THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.
> > And so do I. It is one of the best parts of the game. None of us had
> > ever been part of a campaign where starship combat was a key ingredient.
> > Plus, my group of guys is the absolute best. I am very fortunate.
> > Danielle
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, February 6, 2016 11:46 AM, "DED
> > [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hyphen wrote:
> >
> > >>So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
> > starship combat?<<
> >
> > Definitely can. What's the point in even having starship combat in a game
> > if the players can't influence the outcome? What's the point in even
> > playing a game if you just sit on the sidelines watching things happen?
> > Boring!
> >
> > \_/
> > DED
> > TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
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It's funny, I'm doing a mental replay of every Trav game I've played and I don't recall doing any serious starship combat. Oh no wait... Maybe once or twice, mostly rediculously fast 1 or 2 shots and then flee to j-space... As a part of the RPG, practically none, as a war game yes but as part of an RPG very little.
Derek Stanley
Sent from my iPhone...
> On Feb 6, 2016, at 13:19, Quix [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
> We use Mongoose Traveller High Guard for starship combat. So far we only fight ships under 500 tons. I don't feel prepared to get too big yet. It has been quite simple and easy and adds a nice fun element into our game. Most of our adventures have been investigations and puzzle solving with intermittent bar brawls and shootouts.
>
> Danielle
>
>
>
>
> Sent on the move with my iPhone.
>
>> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:05 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> What system do you use for starship combat?
>>
>> > 6 months ago I was really luck to join a group of Traveller players who
>> > each had their own campaign. They invited me set up my own campaign.
>> > When I am refereeing, starship combat controlled by the PCs is a *must* in
>> > certain parts of the games.
>> > THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.
>> > And so do I. It is one of the best parts of the game. None of us had
>> > ever been part of a campaign where starship combat was a key ingredient.
>> > Plus, my group of guys is the absolute best. I am very fortunate.
>> > Danielle
>> >
>> >
>> > On Saturday, February 6, 2016 11:46 AM, "DED
>> > [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hyphen wrote:
>> >
>> > >>So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
>> > starship combat?<<
>> >
>> > Definitely can. What's the point in even having starship combat in a game
>> > if the players can't influence the outcome? What's the point in even
>> > playing a game if you just sit on the sidelines watching things happen?
>> > Boring!
>> >
>> > \_/
>> > DED
>> > TNE @ Yahoo ml Admin
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>
>
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Derek Stanley
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> It's funny, I'm doing a mental replay of every Trav game I've played and I
> don't recall doing any serious starship combat. Oh no wait... Maybe once
> or twice, mostly rediculously fast 1 or 2 shots and then flee to
> j-space... As a part of the RPG, practically none, as a war game yes but
> as part of an RPG very little.
>
>
In small games 2 or 3 players and a GM it works, for larger numbers of
players it works if there are multiple ships, ot individual spips per
player. Rarely have I had starship combat with a large group on single ship
truly be a All hands engaged sorta affair.
--
Evyn