Frank had/has a tendency to turn things into wargames, for obvious and not
bad reasons. Sometimes those are valuable and useful. Where the wargames
crowd out the PC-based mechanics in an RPG you have to get the PCs back
in.
I think over time Frank found a better approach in the wargamization,
where "crew quality" was a clear place to insert the PC inputs.
> Dear Folks -
>
> Chuck wrote:
>>What I have absolutely never understood about our "hobby" is the level of
>>fanaticism that seems to appear.
>
> You and me both, mate. I've concluded people can run amok over *anything*.
>
>>I've got all of the editions of Traveller...
>
> (we even made up our own AD&D version, predating T20 by some 10 years)
>
>>... and I mix and match the pieces that work for me and ignore the ones
> that don't.
>>I'd like to think this is a balanced perspective on a "game" that is
>> meant
> to be an
>>enjoyable experience for the participants.
>
> YES!!! +10 (because +1 is not enough.)
>
> Derek said:
>>I never see knock down drag out D&D fights.
>
> [EDIT: Rupert's response may have covered this, but...]
> Hmmm, ISTR that there was at least some acrimony around the changes that
> were made when version 2 came out ("...and THEY'VE CHANGED MAGIC
> MISSILE!!!"), and a lot of people hated version 3 (although 3.5 seemed to
> be
> accepted), but almost no long-term gamers liked v4, (many leaving for
> Pathfinder). (V5 may be too little, too late??? Jury is still out.)
>
> But I don't know if anyone received death threats (or at least threats of
> physical harm); maybe Dave became a target because (a) he was Trav Line
> Editor and had his name on the books, and (b) no-one outside really knew
> how
> GDW worked, that it was a real collaboration, and that people such as
> Frank
> and Loren et al signed off on Trav's direction just as much as Dave did?
>
> And regarding the following comment from Dave:
>>I know that when I was at GDW, employees of all the other companies (GDW,
>>White Wolf, West End, FASA etc.) would mock us, "Ha-ha, your fans are
>>insane,"
>
> ...here's a tagline in support:
> "Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour.
> Teach
> him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."
> - as quoted by Steve Jackson in the Daily Illuminator, 3 November 2004
>
> Personally - and I've mentioned this to Dave more than once - I think C.
> S.
> Lewis' 50-year-old comment about "literature" in general is absolutely
> applicable to what's happened with Traveller material:
>
> "Matthew Arnold made the horrible prophecy that literature would
> increasingly replace religion. It has, and its taken on all the features
> of bitter persecution, great intolerance, and traffic in relics. All
> literature becomes a sacred text. A sacred text is always exposed to the
> most monstrous exegesis; hence we have the spectacle of some wretched
> scholar taking a pure divertissement written in the seventeenth century
> and
> getting the most profound ambiguities and social criticisms out of it,
> which
> of course arent there at all . Its the discovery of the mares nest by
> the
> pursuit of the red herring."
> C.S. Lewis, Unreal Estates
>
> This is exactly what has happened with some or our Trav community.
> Anything
> with Marc's name on it is sacred, anything from TNE is heresy. And there
> is
> bitter persecution. And there are profound ambiguities, such as someone
> trying to predict Imperium-wide trade from figures given in Trillion
> Credit
> Squadron - leading to the following tagline:
>
> "I once described trying to analyze Traveller economics from the rules as
> 'Trying to explain the economics of transoceanic container trade by
> looking
> at cross-Indian Ocean dhow traffic.'"
> - Bruce Johnson
>
> (I should point out, I'm in no way saying this is Marc's fault - his list
> of
> mileaux inclues EVERYTHING. He's very catholic in his tastes.)
>
> So much for humour. Maybe we should give up and discuss gun control?
> <*runs*>
>
> Anyway, to drop the acrimony (hopefully acrimoniously), I gonna turn to
> another current topic.
>
> Dave wrote:
>>So when BL took it deliberately back to PC skills, that
>>may have been jarring, depending on which lash-up of previous editions,
>>pseudo-editions, and masquerading editions you had been using.
>
> I've _always_ enjoyed it much more when PC's actually had the chance to
> change the outcome of events. And TNE wasn't the first to try nd drag
> small
> ship combat back out of the hands of the pure wargamers - I liked what the
> Digest guys did with MegaTraveller: Ship Tactics, Engineering, Navigation,
> Sensor Ops, and even Commo all finally got a "look-in". ;-)
>
> So I've always relegated HG to big-ship combat, which is the niche filled
> by
> Battlerider, right? (Disclaimer: I've never played BR, or even BL, even
> though I own both. *embarrased shuffle*. Loved the pics and cardstock
> pieces, tho'. ;-)
>
> So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
> starship
> combat?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>
>
bad reasons. Sometimes those are valuable and useful. Where the wargames
crowd out the PC-based mechanics in an RPG you have to get the PCs back
in.
I think over time Frank found a better approach in the wargamization,
where "crew quality" was a clear place to insert the PC inputs.
> Dear Folks -
>
> Chuck wrote:
>>What I have absolutely never understood about our "hobby" is the level of
>>fanaticism that seems to appear.
>
> You and me both, mate. I've concluded people can run amok over *anything*.
>
>>I've got all of the editions of Traveller...
>
> (we even made up our own AD&D version, predating T20 by some 10 years)
>
>>... and I mix and match the pieces that work for me and ignore the ones
> that don't.
>>I'd like to think this is a balanced perspective on a "game" that is
>> meant
> to be an
>>enjoyable experience for the participants.
>
> YES!!! +10 (because +1 is not enough.)
>
> Derek said:
>>I never see knock down drag out D&D fights.
>
> [EDIT: Rupert's response may have covered this, but...]
> Hmmm, ISTR that there was at least some acrimony around the changes that
> were made when version 2 came out ("...and THEY'VE CHANGED MAGIC
> MISSILE!!!"), and a lot of people hated version 3 (although 3.5 seemed to
> be
> accepted), but almost no long-term gamers liked v4, (many leaving for
> Pathfinder). (V5 may be too little, too late??? Jury is still out.)
>
> But I don't know if anyone received death threats (or at least threats of
> physical harm); maybe Dave became a target because (a) he was Trav Line
> Editor and had his name on the books, and (b) no-one outside really knew
> how
> GDW worked, that it was a real collaboration, and that people such as
> Frank
> and Loren et al signed off on Trav's direction just as much as Dave did?
>
> And regarding the following comment from Dave:
>>I know that when I was at GDW, employees of all the other companies (GDW,
>>White Wolf, West End, FASA etc.) would mock us, "Ha-ha, your fans are
>>insane,"
>
> ...here's a tagline in support:
> "Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour.
> Teach
> him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."
> - as quoted by Steve Jackson in the Daily Illuminator, 3 November 2004
>
> Personally - and I've mentioned this to Dave more than once - I think C.
> S.
> Lewis' 50-year-old comment about "literature" in general is absolutely
> applicable to what's happened with Traveller material:
>
> "Matthew Arnold made the horrible prophecy that literature would
> increasingly replace religion. It has, and its taken on all the features
> of bitter persecution, great intolerance, and traffic in relics. All
> literature becomes a sacred text. A sacred text is always exposed to the
> most monstrous exegesis; hence we have the spectacle of some wretched
> scholar taking a pure divertissement written in the seventeenth century
> and
> getting the most profound ambiguities and social criticisms out of it,
> which
> of course arent there at all . Its the discovery of the mares nest by
> the
> pursuit of the red herring."
> C.S. Lewis, Unreal Estates
>
> This is exactly what has happened with some or our Trav community.
> Anything
> with Marc's name on it is sacred, anything from TNE is heresy. And there
> is
> bitter persecution. And there are profound ambiguities, such as someone
> trying to predict Imperium-wide trade from figures given in Trillion
> Credit
> Squadron - leading to the following tagline:
>
> "I once described trying to analyze Traveller economics from the rules as
> 'Trying to explain the economics of transoceanic container trade by
> looking
> at cross-Indian Ocean dhow traffic.'"
> - Bruce Johnson
>
> (I should point out, I'm in no way saying this is Marc's fault - his list
> of
> mileaux inclues EVERYTHING. He's very catholic in his tastes.)
>
> So much for humour. Maybe we should give up and discuss gun control?
> <*runs*>
>
> Anyway, to drop the acrimony (hopefully acrimoniously), I gonna turn to
> another current topic.
>
> Dave wrote:
>>So when BL took it deliberately back to PC skills, that
>>may have been jarring, depending on which lash-up of previous editions,
>>pseudo-editions, and masquerading editions you had been using.
>
> I've _always_ enjoyed it much more when PC's actually had the chance to
> change the outcome of events. And TNE wasn't the first to try nd drag
> small
> ship combat back out of the hands of the pure wargamers - I liked what the
> Digest guys did with MegaTraveller: Ship Tactics, Engineering, Navigation,
> Sensor Ops, and even Commo all finally got a "look-in". ;-)
>
> So I've always relegated HG to big-ship combat, which is the niche filled
> by
> Battlerider, right? (Disclaimer: I've never played BR, or even BL, even
> though I own both. *embarrased shuffle*. Loved the pics and cardstock
> pieces, tho'. ;-)
>
> So what do people here prefer? That PC's can, or cannot, influence
> starship
> combat?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>
>