Gary--
This is great, and I want to do it justice, but I need to get to bed, so
won't try to start responding to it until tomorrow.
Okay, I'll say this ONE thing: a Vampire Ship agonizing over the Arian
Heresy would be brilliant. Who better to argue about the nature of creator
and creation/son than Virus?
Talk to you later,
Dave
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:02 PM, <> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> > That quote is pretty much ALL there is (or that I could find anyway)
>> so
>> everything else is mine. There is actually a bunch more I did on COTI
>> and need to rework this into a title page since I hate the organization
>> of what
>> > should be an index. Page 2 of the COTI thread had the logos for the
>> Consolidation and flag, roundel and writeup for the Knights St George.
>> Their vehicles, ships, TOE and heraldry remain WIP in various states of
>> completion on > my hdd
>>
>> Here's why I ask. The stuff below the DGP quote is very detailed and
>> uses
>> a lot of very specific, technical, ecclesiastical language which I
>> assume
>> could only be written by a person who has a serious connection to the
>> churches in question, and I mean church historian level. I assume that
>> person is you. That stuff is really pretty interesting, and leads to a
>> bunch of questions/observations:
>>
>
>> 1. That is not your typical Traveller type stuff. What's the kind of
>> response you've gotten? I think the only other similarly serious
>> references to religion was Harold Hale's Children of Earth, but they
>> were
>> typical expansionist conquistadors, and not at all the open-minded,
>> progressive organization you portray. That in itself must be surprising
>> to
>> a lot of people.
>>
>
> It is my verbiage, though I don't claim any official connection beyond
> that
> of a layperson interested in history the perspective it gives in
> contemplating faith and the modern world. There are a few positive
> comments in the thread at COTI and I got a few PM's also expressing
> interest. Some from definitely non-theist perspectives but expressing
> appreciation for an angle that they normally didn't use at all and
> provided
> good data mining material. Most of the rest hasn't been shared widely.
> The RC Naval campaign fizzled out well before they got close to launching
> to Alpha Leonis, but I did a bunch of prep (as can be seen). I spent way
> too much time doing individual Grand Masters of the Knights of St George
> in
> eras I never had any intention of starting a campaign in and their
> heraldry
> project spun into it's own thing, first doing it by hand then on various
> software formats. Most of it's lost by the New Era and would likely have
> never reached the players except for maybe a summary list, but I had fun
> modeling it off of the Templars and Hospitallers from medieval history and
> seeing how men of faith would respond to the Traveller universe in it's
> various epochs.
>
> It's not all progressive amity, though. Criminal Justice code based on
> the
> 7 Deadly Sins isn't going to be popular with many in the modern relativist
> world, or a Church and Knighthood bound by Canon instead of Civil Law.
> Or
> the perils of Excommunication in such a society. Some of it intended out
> of practical interpretation and some for drama. Of course, man being man
> there will be some of those with negative traits and the oddball villain
> or
> two as a 'man of the cloth' cynically using his religion as a means rather
> than an end.
>
> The personality of the AZH captured by the Knights of St George and later
> inhabited by one of Sandman's progeny was going to be most entertaining
> since I had it with a mostly intact theological history database at it's
> disposal and would tend to debate things like Arius and Trinity or the
> Gregorian vs Julian Calendars, etc.
>
>
>
>> 2. I note at the (Second) Council of Nicea in 2054 that US Episcopals
>> don't join. Is that a result of the recent split with the Anglicans, so
>> is
>> it based on current events?
>>
>
> No, most of the concept I did in the late 90's and was hypothetical on the
> ecumenical movement as it was then. I think Episcopalians having women
> priests was still relatively a big deal. I did update some of it as I was
> presenting to COTI (mostly stuff like the disintegration of the EU, etc),
> but that wasn't a part of it. Mostly I was thinking that the whole bunch
> wouldn't go over in one mass and there would either be a reformist or
> reactionary group that refused to bend to the "Papist apostasy". I had
> ideas for one of the Orthodox churches refusing to go along, as well,
> though I never pinned down which one or why (leaning on Russian Orthodox,
> mostly so there could still be some claims of Third Rome, etc).
>
>
>> 3. It is really interesting what you are doing in a game which
>> historically has not addressed religion much.
>>
>
> I definitely thought it was lacking, but it's obviously an area almost any
> company would be hesitant to get into much detail on since it's so very
> easy to offend SOMEONE and dig a big PR hole, if not very serious nut
> cases.
>
> I also wanted to bring a different and more serious element to the rather
> cartoonishly simplistic Solomani Confederation. DGP showed the Booteans
> as
> one alternative, but the Nazis still seemed way too predominant (though it
> didn't annoy me as much as the cliches of the French Nth Republic -
> Reformed, 2nd Edition, the Latino Banana Republic, corrupt eastern bloc
> Europeans, Apartheid in Space, etc. They couldn't all be a bunch of
> nincompoop stereotypes could they?
>
>
>> 4. What happens to the Lutherans? Surely you know better than to lump us
>> in with the rest of the Protestants.
>>
>
> Sure enough. After the Anglicans, I see the Lutherans as the next closest
> theologically, but there are some pretty big theological bullets, almost
> too big to smooth over beyond relatively simple Roman primacy and calendar
> details like the Orthodox would face. I wouldn't expect either the bulk
> of
> the self respecting Lutherans to bend on any more than I expect the Rock
> of
> St Peter's. I would have had relations cordial following Nicea 2054 but
> had
> ideas for at least one world in the Consolidation with a rich Lutheran
> heritage, though refusing to implement a Universal-Orthodox hierarchy,
> much
> less bend to it, as a matter of principle. I might not have my finger on
> the pulse of Lutheran ecumenism enough to be accurately capture that,
> though so maybe you can provide a better perspective on how they would
> have
> reacted to Vilani contact, the Council itself, and which theological
> fences
> would be more willing to compromise on than others, if not also the launch
> of Caelis Torino and the establishment of the TCA, Rule of Man, Turin
> Consolidation, Solomani Movement, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>> 5. I am one of the most ecumenical guys you'll ever meet, but man, I'm
>> not
>> as optimistic as you are in your future history!
>>
>> Please talk about what led you to this singular, distinctive approach.
>>
>>
> I do tend towards optimism, though it's not all roses. Partially I was
> trying to emulate medieval Christendom but with a modern humanist approach
> while trying to keep enough room for adventure and theology for those
> inclined. The ecclesiastical language is essential to that spirit as well
> as the general symbology permeating even lay life.
>
> I think a losing war against the Vilani (as it was hypothesized for the
> launch of Caelis Torino) would inspire some open minded theology, as well.
>
> Catholic-Orthodox... cordiality, if not full reunion seems inevitable.
> The
> huge differences of the past are relatively trivial today. I've studied
> the early history of Christianity at some length, particularly the early
> heresies and how the western and eastern Church grew and dealt with them.
> The whole idea of the culmination of the ecumenical movement stemmed from
> the ideal scenario and counterpoint to the nasty drama between Patriarch
> Michael Kerularios and Cardinal Humbert and the reunion of the two oldest
> branches of Christianity. Mostly it started from some of my reading of
> the
> Latin/Greek Schism, so it was no coincidence I put the reunion 1000 years
> later. It might be TOO coincidental but it does seem an obvious date to
> try to do something symbolic on, as well.
>
> Still, it's almost hilarious to see the differences that Photius condemned
> as anathema the Latins for things as petty as not beginning Lent until Ash
> Wednesday instead of 3 days earlier, as well as the classic staples of
> married clergy and filioque (which is probably too subtle for most
> non-religious to appreciate).
>
> I don't expect many Protestants or modern Evangelicals to join the party,
> though, without backtracking on relatively core theology that the
> Catholics
> and Orthodox can't bend on either. Thus not as much mention, except for
> the conservative branch of US Episcopalians that is also near to
> Catholicism already. Some would be more cordial than others.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> > I Love that Dulinor quote. Hints at a depth and humanity to an
>> otherwise
>> undeveloped character known (and almost universally reviled) only for
>> what he did, not why.
>>
>> Thanks. I wanted to give him a bit of a grace note, because there had to
>> have been more going on than just, "destroy it all," but we never got a
>> chance to hear from him. So the least I could do is give him some
>> dignity,
>> some regret, some sense that he tried to do something that got screwed
>> up....before he walked out and got eaten by the steam shovel, or
>> whatever
>> I did to him.
>>
>>
> I was going to blame some of it on the Virasin. :) The notes for the
> Brotherhood of SenWenclus have a few refences to theological debate and
> Apologetics defending the Arkgallop of Illelish against the claims of the
> Dlan Virasin
>
>
>>
>>
>
This is great, and I want to do it justice, but I need to get to bed, so
won't try to start responding to it until tomorrow.
Okay, I'll say this ONE thing: a Vampire Ship agonizing over the Arian
Heresy would be brilliant. Who better to argue about the nature of creator
and creation/son than Virus?
Talk to you later,
Dave
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:02 PM, <> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> > That quote is pretty much ALL there is (or that I could find anyway)
>> so
>> everything else is mine. There is actually a bunch more I did on COTI
>> and need to rework this into a title page since I hate the organization
>> of what
>> > should be an index. Page 2 of the COTI thread had the logos for the
>> Consolidation and flag, roundel and writeup for the Knights St George.
>> Their vehicles, ships, TOE and heraldry remain WIP in various states of
>> completion on > my hdd
>>
>> Here's why I ask. The stuff below the DGP quote is very detailed and
>> uses
>> a lot of very specific, technical, ecclesiastical language which I
>> assume
>> could only be written by a person who has a serious connection to the
>> churches in question, and I mean church historian level. I assume that
>> person is you. That stuff is really pretty interesting, and leads to a
>> bunch of questions/observations:
>>
>
>> 1. That is not your typical Traveller type stuff. What's the kind of
>> response you've gotten? I think the only other similarly serious
>> references to religion was Harold Hale's Children of Earth, but they
>> were
>> typical expansionist conquistadors, and not at all the open-minded,
>> progressive organization you portray. That in itself must be surprising
>> to
>> a lot of people.
>>
>
> It is my verbiage, though I don't claim any official connection beyond
> that
> of a layperson interested in history the perspective it gives in
> contemplating faith and the modern world. There are a few positive
> comments in the thread at COTI and I got a few PM's also expressing
> interest. Some from definitely non-theist perspectives but expressing
> appreciation for an angle that they normally didn't use at all and
> provided
> good data mining material. Most of the rest hasn't been shared widely.
> The RC Naval campaign fizzled out well before they got close to launching
> to Alpha Leonis, but I did a bunch of prep (as can be seen). I spent way
> too much time doing individual Grand Masters of the Knights of St George
> in
> eras I never had any intention of starting a campaign in and their
> heraldry
> project spun into it's own thing, first doing it by hand then on various
> software formats. Most of it's lost by the New Era and would likely have
> never reached the players except for maybe a summary list, but I had fun
> modeling it off of the Templars and Hospitallers from medieval history and
> seeing how men of faith would respond to the Traveller universe in it's
> various epochs.
>
> It's not all progressive amity, though. Criminal Justice code based on
> the
> 7 Deadly Sins isn't going to be popular with many in the modern relativist
> world, or a Church and Knighthood bound by Canon instead of Civil Law.
> Or
> the perils of Excommunication in such a society. Some of it intended out
> of practical interpretation and some for drama. Of course, man being man
> there will be some of those with negative traits and the oddball villain
> or
> two as a 'man of the cloth' cynically using his religion as a means rather
> than an end.
>
> The personality of the AZH captured by the Knights of St George and later
> inhabited by one of Sandman's progeny was going to be most entertaining
> since I had it with a mostly intact theological history database at it's
> disposal and would tend to debate things like Arius and Trinity or the
> Gregorian vs Julian Calendars, etc.
>
>
>
>> 2. I note at the (Second) Council of Nicea in 2054 that US Episcopals
>> don't join. Is that a result of the recent split with the Anglicans, so
>> is
>> it based on current events?
>>
>
> No, most of the concept I did in the late 90's and was hypothetical on the
> ecumenical movement as it was then. I think Episcopalians having women
> priests was still relatively a big deal. I did update some of it as I was
> presenting to COTI (mostly stuff like the disintegration of the EU, etc),
> but that wasn't a part of it. Mostly I was thinking that the whole bunch
> wouldn't go over in one mass and there would either be a reformist or
> reactionary group that refused to bend to the "Papist apostasy". I had
> ideas for one of the Orthodox churches refusing to go along, as well,
> though I never pinned down which one or why (leaning on Russian Orthodox,
> mostly so there could still be some claims of Third Rome, etc).
>
>
>> 3. It is really interesting what you are doing in a game which
>> historically has not addressed religion much.
>>
>
> I definitely thought it was lacking, but it's obviously an area almost any
> company would be hesitant to get into much detail on since it's so very
> easy to offend SOMEONE and dig a big PR hole, if not very serious nut
> cases.
>
> I also wanted to bring a different and more serious element to the rather
> cartoonishly simplistic Solomani Confederation. DGP showed the Booteans
> as
> one alternative, but the Nazis still seemed way too predominant (though it
> didn't annoy me as much as the cliches of the French Nth Republic -
> Reformed, 2nd Edition, the Latino Banana Republic, corrupt eastern bloc
> Europeans, Apartheid in Space, etc. They couldn't all be a bunch of
> nincompoop stereotypes could they?
>
>
>> 4. What happens to the Lutherans? Surely you know better than to lump us
>> in with the rest of the Protestants.
>>
>
> Sure enough. After the Anglicans, I see the Lutherans as the next closest
> theologically, but there are some pretty big theological bullets, almost
> too big to smooth over beyond relatively simple Roman primacy and calendar
> details like the Orthodox would face. I wouldn't expect either the bulk
> of
> the self respecting Lutherans to bend on any more than I expect the Rock
> of
> St Peter's. I would have had relations cordial following Nicea 2054 but
> had
> ideas for at least one world in the Consolidation with a rich Lutheran
> heritage, though refusing to implement a Universal-Orthodox hierarchy,
> much
> less bend to it, as a matter of principle. I might not have my finger on
> the pulse of Lutheran ecumenism enough to be accurately capture that,
> though so maybe you can provide a better perspective on how they would
> have
> reacted to Vilani contact, the Council itself, and which theological
> fences
> would be more willing to compromise on than others, if not also the launch
> of Caelis Torino and the establishment of the TCA, Rule of Man, Turin
> Consolidation, Solomani Movement, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>> 5. I am one of the most ecumenical guys you'll ever meet, but man, I'm
>> not
>> as optimistic as you are in your future history!
>>
>> Please talk about what led you to this singular, distinctive approach.
>>
>>
> I do tend towards optimism, though it's not all roses. Partially I was
> trying to emulate medieval Christendom but with a modern humanist approach
> while trying to keep enough room for adventure and theology for those
> inclined. The ecclesiastical language is essential to that spirit as well
> as the general symbology permeating even lay life.
>
> I think a losing war against the Vilani (as it was hypothesized for the
> launch of Caelis Torino) would inspire some open minded theology, as well.
>
> Catholic-Orthodox... cordiality, if not full reunion seems inevitable.
> The
> huge differences of the past are relatively trivial today. I've studied
> the early history of Christianity at some length, particularly the early
> heresies and how the western and eastern Church grew and dealt with them.
> The whole idea of the culmination of the ecumenical movement stemmed from
> the ideal scenario and counterpoint to the nasty drama between Patriarch
> Michael Kerularios and Cardinal Humbert and the reunion of the two oldest
> branches of Christianity. Mostly it started from some of my reading of
> the
> Latin/Greek Schism, so it was no coincidence I put the reunion 1000 years
> later. It might be TOO coincidental but it does seem an obvious date to
> try to do something symbolic on, as well.
>
> Still, it's almost hilarious to see the differences that Photius condemned
> as anathema the Latins for things as petty as not beginning Lent until Ash
> Wednesday instead of 3 days earlier, as well as the classic staples of
> married clergy and filioque (which is probably too subtle for most
> non-religious to appreciate).
>
> I don't expect many Protestants or modern Evangelicals to join the party,
> though, without backtracking on relatively core theology that the
> Catholics
> and Orthodox can't bend on either. Thus not as much mention, except for
> the conservative branch of US Episcopalians that is also near to
> Catholicism already. Some would be more cordial than others.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> > I Love that Dulinor quote. Hints at a depth and humanity to an
>> otherwise
>> undeveloped character known (and almost universally reviled) only for
>> what he did, not why.
>>
>> Thanks. I wanted to give him a bit of a grace note, because there had to
>> have been more going on than just, "destroy it all," but we never got a
>> chance to hear from him. So the least I could do is give him some
>> dignity,
>> some regret, some sense that he tried to do something that got screwed
>> up....before he walked out and got eaten by the steam shovel, or
>> whatever
>> I did to him.
>>
>>
> I was going to blame some of it on the Virasin. :) The notes for the
> Brotherhood of SenWenclus have a few refences to theological debate and
> Apologetics defending the Arkgallop of Illelish against the claims of the
> Dlan Virasin
>
>
>>
>>
>