On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:02 PM, <> wrote:
> **
>
>
> > That quote is pretty much ALL there is (or that I could find anyway) so
> everything else is mine. There is actually a bunch more I did on COTI
> and need to rework this into a title page since I hate the organization
> of what
> > should be an index. Page 2 of the COTI thread had the logos for the
> Consolidation and flag, roundel and writeup for the Knights St George.
> Their vehicles, ships, TOE and heraldry remain WIP in various states of
> completion on > my hdd
>
> Here's why I ask. The stuff below the DGP quote is very detailed and uses
> a lot of very specific, technical, ecclesiastical language which I assume
> could only be written by a person who has a serious connection to the
> churches in question, and I mean church historian level. I assume that
> person is you. That stuff is really pretty interesting, and leads to a
> bunch of questions/observations:
>
> 1. That is not your typical Traveller type stuff. What's the kind of
> response you've gotten? I think the only other similarly serious
> references to religion was Harold Hale's Children of Earth, but they were
> typical expansionist conquistadors, and not at all the open-minded,
> progressive organization you portray. That in itself must be surprising to
> a lot of people.
>
It is my verbiage, though I don't claim any official connection beyond that
of a layperson interested in history the perspective it gives in
contemplating faith and the modern world. There are a few positive
comments in the thread at COTI and I got a few PM's also expressing
interest. Some from definitely non-theist perspectives but expressing
appreciation for an angle that they normally didn't use at all and provided
good data mining material. Most of the rest hasn't been shared widely.
The RC Naval campaign fizzled out well before they got close to launching
to Alpha Leonis, but I did a bunch of prep (as can be seen). I spent way
too much time doing individual Grand Masters of the Knights of St George in
eras I never had any intention of starting a campaign in and their heraldry
project spun into it's own thing, first doing it by hand then on various
software formats. Most of it's lost by the New Era and would likely have
never reached the players except for maybe a summary list, but I had fun
modeling it off of the Templars and Hospitallers from medieval history and
seeing how men of faith would respond to the Traveller universe in it's
various epochs.
It's not all progressive amity, though. Criminal Justice code based on the
7 Deadly Sins isn't going to be popular with many in the modern relativist
world, or a Church and Knighthood bound by Canon instead of Civil Law. Or
the perils of Excommunication in such a society. Some of it intended out
of practical interpretation and some for drama. Of course, man being man
there will be some of those with negative traits and the oddball villain or
two as a 'man of the cloth' cynically using his religion as a means rather
than an end.
The personality of the AZH captured by the Knights of St George and later
inhabited by one of Sandman's progeny was going to be most entertaining
since I had it with a mostly intact theological history database at it's
disposal and would tend to debate things like Arius and Trinity or the
Gregorian vs Julian Calendars, etc.
> 2. I note at the (Second) Council of Nicea in 2054 that US Episcopals
> don't join. Is that a result of the recent split with the Anglicans, so is
> it based on current events?
>
No, most of the concept I did in the late 90's and was hypothetical on the
ecumenical movement as it was then. I think Episcopalians having women
priests was still relatively a big deal. I did update some of it as I was
presenting to COTI (mostly stuff like the disintegration of the EU, etc),
but that wasn't a part of it. Mostly I was thinking that the whole bunch
wouldn't go over in one mass and there would either be a reformist or
reactionary group that refused to bend to the "Papist apostasy". I had
ideas for one of the Orthodox churches refusing to go along, as well,
though I never pinned down which one or why (leaning on Russian Orthodox,
mostly so there could still be some claims of Third Rome, etc).
> 3. It is really interesting what you are doing in a game which
> historically has not addressed religion much.
>
I definitely thought it was lacking, but it's obviously an area almost any
company would be hesitant to get into much detail on since it's so very
easy to offend SOMEONE and dig a big PR hole, if not very serious nut
cases.
I also wanted to bring a different and more serious element to the rather
cartoonishly simplistic Solomani Confederation. DGP showed the Booteans as
one alternative, but the Nazis still seemed way too predominant (though it
didn't annoy me as much as the cliches of the French Nth Republic -
Reformed, 2nd Edition, the Latino Banana Republic, corrupt eastern bloc
Europeans, Apartheid in Space, etc. They couldn't all be a bunch of
nincompoop stereotypes could they?
> 4. What happens to the Lutherans? Surely you know better than to lump us
> in with the rest of the Protestants.
>
Sure enough. After the Anglicans, I see the Lutherans as the next closest
theologically, but there are some pretty big theological bullets, almost
too big to smooth over beyond relatively simple Roman primacy and calendar
details like the Orthodox would face. I wouldn't expect either the bulk of
the self respecting Lutherans to bend on any more than I expect the Rock of
St Peter's. I would have had relations cordial following Nicea 2054 but had
ideas for at least one world in the Consolidation with a rich Lutheran
heritage, though refusing to implement a Universal-Orthodox hierarchy, much
less bend to it, as a matter of principle. I might not have my finger on
the pulse of Lutheran ecumenism enough to be accurately capture that,
though so maybe you can provide a better perspective on how they would have
reacted to Vilani contact, the Council itself, and which theological fences
would be more willing to compromise on than others, if not also the launch
of Caelis Torino and the establishment of the TCA, Rule of Man, Turin
Consolidation, Solomani Movement, etc.
> 5. I am one of the most ecumenical guys you'll ever meet, but man, I'm not
> as optimistic as you are in your future history!
>
> Please talk about what led you to this singular, distinctive approach.
>
>
I do tend towards optimism, though it's not all roses. Partially I was
trying to emulate medieval Christendom but with a modern humanist approach
while trying to keep enough room for adventure and theology for those
inclined. The ecclesiastical language is essential to that spirit as well
as the general symbology permeating even lay life.
I think a losing war against the Vilani (as it was hypothesized for the
launch of Caelis Torino) would inspire some open minded theology, as well.
Catholic-Orthodox... cordiality, if not full reunion seems inevitable. The
huge differences of the past are relatively trivial today. I've studied
the early history of Christianity at some length, particularly the early
heresies and how the western and eastern Church grew and dealt with them.
The whole idea of the culmination of the ecumenical movement stemmed from
the ideal scenario and counterpoint to the nasty drama between Patriarch
Michael Kerularios and Cardinal Humbert and the reunion of the two oldest
branches of Christianity. Mostly it started from some of my reading of the
Latin/Greek Schism, so it was no coincidence I put the reunion 1000 years
later. It might be TOO coincidental but it does seem an obvious date to
try to do something symbolic on, as well.
Still, it's almost hilarious to see the differences that Photius condemned
as anathema the Latins for things as petty as not beginning Lent until Ash
Wednesday instead of 3 days earlier, as well as the classic staples of
married clergy and filioque (which is probably too subtle for most
non-religious to appreciate).
I don't expect many Protestants or modern Evangelicals to join the party,
though, without backtracking on relatively core theology that the Catholics
and Orthodox can't bend on either. Thus not as much mention, except for
the conservative branch of US Episcopalians that is also near to
Catholicism already. Some would be more cordial than others.
>
> > I Love that Dulinor quote. Hints at a depth and humanity to an otherwise
> undeveloped character known (and almost universally reviled) only for
> what he did, not why.
>
> Thanks. I wanted to give him a bit of a grace note, because there had to
> have been more going on than just, "destroy it all," but we never got a
> chance to hear from him. So the least I could do is give him some dignity,
> some regret, some sense that he tried to do something that got screwed
> up....before he walked out and got eaten by the steam shovel, or whatever
> I did to him.
>
>
I was going to blame some of it on the Virasin. :) The notes for the
Brotherhood of SenWenclus have a few refences to theological debate and
Apologetics defending the Arkgallop of Illelish against the claims of the
Dlan Virasin
>
>
> **
>
>
> > That quote is pretty much ALL there is (or that I could find anyway) so
> everything else is mine. There is actually a bunch more I did on COTI
> and need to rework this into a title page since I hate the organization
> of what
> > should be an index. Page 2 of the COTI thread had the logos for the
> Consolidation and flag, roundel and writeup for the Knights St George.
> Their vehicles, ships, TOE and heraldry remain WIP in various states of
> completion on > my hdd
>
> Here's why I ask. The stuff below the DGP quote is very detailed and uses
> a lot of very specific, technical, ecclesiastical language which I assume
> could only be written by a person who has a serious connection to the
> churches in question, and I mean church historian level. I assume that
> person is you. That stuff is really pretty interesting, and leads to a
> bunch of questions/observations:
>
> 1. That is not your typical Traveller type stuff. What's the kind of
> response you've gotten? I think the only other similarly serious
> references to religion was Harold Hale's Children of Earth, but they were
> typical expansionist conquistadors, and not at all the open-minded,
> progressive organization you portray. That in itself must be surprising to
> a lot of people.
>
It is my verbiage, though I don't claim any official connection beyond that
of a layperson interested in history the perspective it gives in
contemplating faith and the modern world. There are a few positive
comments in the thread at COTI and I got a few PM's also expressing
interest. Some from definitely non-theist perspectives but expressing
appreciation for an angle that they normally didn't use at all and provided
good data mining material. Most of the rest hasn't been shared widely.
The RC Naval campaign fizzled out well before they got close to launching
to Alpha Leonis, but I did a bunch of prep (as can be seen). I spent way
too much time doing individual Grand Masters of the Knights of St George in
eras I never had any intention of starting a campaign in and their heraldry
project spun into it's own thing, first doing it by hand then on various
software formats. Most of it's lost by the New Era and would likely have
never reached the players except for maybe a summary list, but I had fun
modeling it off of the Templars and Hospitallers from medieval history and
seeing how men of faith would respond to the Traveller universe in it's
various epochs.
It's not all progressive amity, though. Criminal Justice code based on the
7 Deadly Sins isn't going to be popular with many in the modern relativist
world, or a Church and Knighthood bound by Canon instead of Civil Law. Or
the perils of Excommunication in such a society. Some of it intended out
of practical interpretation and some for drama. Of course, man being man
there will be some of those with negative traits and the oddball villain or
two as a 'man of the cloth' cynically using his religion as a means rather
than an end.
The personality of the AZH captured by the Knights of St George and later
inhabited by one of Sandman's progeny was going to be most entertaining
since I had it with a mostly intact theological history database at it's
disposal and would tend to debate things like Arius and Trinity or the
Gregorian vs Julian Calendars, etc.
> 2. I note at the (Second) Council of Nicea in 2054 that US Episcopals
> don't join. Is that a result of the recent split with the Anglicans, so is
> it based on current events?
>
No, most of the concept I did in the late 90's and was hypothetical on the
ecumenical movement as it was then. I think Episcopalians having women
priests was still relatively a big deal. I did update some of it as I was
presenting to COTI (mostly stuff like the disintegration of the EU, etc),
but that wasn't a part of it. Mostly I was thinking that the whole bunch
wouldn't go over in one mass and there would either be a reformist or
reactionary group that refused to bend to the "Papist apostasy". I had
ideas for one of the Orthodox churches refusing to go along, as well,
though I never pinned down which one or why (leaning on Russian Orthodox,
mostly so there could still be some claims of Third Rome, etc).
> 3. It is really interesting what you are doing in a game which
> historically has not addressed religion much.
>
I definitely thought it was lacking, but it's obviously an area almost any
company would be hesitant to get into much detail on since it's so very
easy to offend SOMEONE and dig a big PR hole, if not very serious nut
cases.
I also wanted to bring a different and more serious element to the rather
cartoonishly simplistic Solomani Confederation. DGP showed the Booteans as
one alternative, but the Nazis still seemed way too predominant (though it
didn't annoy me as much as the cliches of the French Nth Republic -
Reformed, 2nd Edition, the Latino Banana Republic, corrupt eastern bloc
Europeans, Apartheid in Space, etc. They couldn't all be a bunch of
nincompoop stereotypes could they?
> 4. What happens to the Lutherans? Surely you know better than to lump us
> in with the rest of the Protestants.
>
Sure enough. After the Anglicans, I see the Lutherans as the next closest
theologically, but there are some pretty big theological bullets, almost
too big to smooth over beyond relatively simple Roman primacy and calendar
details like the Orthodox would face. I wouldn't expect either the bulk of
the self respecting Lutherans to bend on any more than I expect the Rock of
St Peter's. I would have had relations cordial following Nicea 2054 but had
ideas for at least one world in the Consolidation with a rich Lutheran
heritage, though refusing to implement a Universal-Orthodox hierarchy, much
less bend to it, as a matter of principle. I might not have my finger on
the pulse of Lutheran ecumenism enough to be accurately capture that,
though so maybe you can provide a better perspective on how they would have
reacted to Vilani contact, the Council itself, and which theological fences
would be more willing to compromise on than others, if not also the launch
of Caelis Torino and the establishment of the TCA, Rule of Man, Turin
Consolidation, Solomani Movement, etc.
> 5. I am one of the most ecumenical guys you'll ever meet, but man, I'm not
> as optimistic as you are in your future history!
>
> Please talk about what led you to this singular, distinctive approach.
>
>
I do tend towards optimism, though it's not all roses. Partially I was
trying to emulate medieval Christendom but with a modern humanist approach
while trying to keep enough room for adventure and theology for those
inclined. The ecclesiastical language is essential to that spirit as well
as the general symbology permeating even lay life.
I think a losing war against the Vilani (as it was hypothesized for the
launch of Caelis Torino) would inspire some open minded theology, as well.
Catholic-Orthodox... cordiality, if not full reunion seems inevitable. The
huge differences of the past are relatively trivial today. I've studied
the early history of Christianity at some length, particularly the early
heresies and how the western and eastern Church grew and dealt with them.
The whole idea of the culmination of the ecumenical movement stemmed from
the ideal scenario and counterpoint to the nasty drama between Patriarch
Michael Kerularios and Cardinal Humbert and the reunion of the two oldest
branches of Christianity. Mostly it started from some of my reading of the
Latin/Greek Schism, so it was no coincidence I put the reunion 1000 years
later. It might be TOO coincidental but it does seem an obvious date to
try to do something symbolic on, as well.
Still, it's almost hilarious to see the differences that Photius condemned
as anathema the Latins for things as petty as not beginning Lent until Ash
Wednesday instead of 3 days earlier, as well as the classic staples of
married clergy and filioque (which is probably too subtle for most
non-religious to appreciate).
I don't expect many Protestants or modern Evangelicals to join the party,
though, without backtracking on relatively core theology that the Catholics
and Orthodox can't bend on either. Thus not as much mention, except for
the conservative branch of US Episcopalians that is also near to
Catholicism already. Some would be more cordial than others.
>
> > I Love that Dulinor quote. Hints at a depth and humanity to an otherwise
> undeveloped character known (and almost universally reviled) only for
> what he did, not why.
>
> Thanks. I wanted to give him a bit of a grace note, because there had to
> have been more going on than just, "destroy it all," but we never got a
> chance to hear from him. So the least I could do is give him some dignity,
> some regret, some sense that he tried to do something that got screwed
> up....before he walked out and got eaten by the steam shovel, or whatever
> I did to him.
>
>
I was going to blame some of it on the Virasin. :) The notes for the
Brotherhood of SenWenclus have a few refences to theological debate and
Apologetics defending the Arkgallop of Illelish against the claims of the
Dlan Virasin
>
>