Thread: Re: Fermi's Paradox Was: Grudge Match? -->5

Does bring to mind a core concept that of Fermi's Paradox. None of the
solutions are particularly plausible to me. Noone defies the Galactic
Federation/Empire to smuggle us some TL10 widgets for a profit? Simply
falling back on "space is big" doesn't grasp the problem that there should
be tens of thousands of species at comparable development broadcasting
probably indecipherable gibberish before they nuke themselves or fall
victim to a Gamma Ray Burst, much less start flying out before joining
and/or getting absorbed by the Galactic Gubmint.

Traveller's idea is still relatively unique: they're out there and they're
human. Kind of. And there's some strange critters, etc. The one thing I
find lacking in the Traveller Universe is that outside of the Ancient's
there's no other evidence of ancient species. Grandpa should have been
running into a Sentient Mileau or something like that. Well perhaps he did
but spun them off into the Star Control Universe, he he.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:52 AM, John Potter <> wrote:

>
>
> In an author's case (printed medium) I feel that the imagination is the
> limiting factor. We only have a sample size of 1 for how life can evolve
> (our world). I grant you there is diversity within the over arching system
> that exists here however we are all carbon based and all are produced by
> the same system.
>
> A level of understanding about biology is required most authors simply
> don't have. So much of scifi aliens fall under archtypical categories which
> I am ok with honestly.
>
>
>
>

Dave and I discussed this a little on the side there are references to
Primordial species in the Traveller time line predating the Ancients by
around 1 billion years.

Sources sighted
http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/TravellerIntegratedTimeline.pdf

But like all things our galaxy is a living thing stars explode and reform
planets get destroyed or flung off into the cosmos. And empty space is
'really' empty. Find a derelict of anything in empty space is nigh
impossible which is why it makes good story fodder.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Does bring to mind a core concept that of Fermi's Paradox. None of the
> solutions are particularly plausible to me. Noone defies the Galactic
> Federation/Empire to smuggle us some TL10 widgets for a profit? Simply
> falling back on "space is big" doesn't grasp the problem that there should
> be tens of thousands of species at comparable development broadcasting
> probably indecipherable gibberish before they nuke themselves or fall
> victim to a Gamma Ray Burst, much less start flying out before joining
> and/or getting absorbed by the Galactic Gubmint.
>
> Traveller's idea is still relatively unique: they're out there and they're
> human. Kind of. And there's some strange critters, etc. The one thing I
> find lacking in the Traveller Universe is that outside of the Ancient's
> there's no other evidence of ancient species. Grandpa should have been
> running into a Sentient Mileau or something like that. Well perhaps he did
> but spun them off into the Star Control Universe, he he.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:52 AM, John Potter <>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In an author's case (printed medium) I feel that the imagination is the
>> limiting factor. We only have a sample size of 1 for how life can evolve
>> (our world). I grant you there is diversity within the over arching system
>> that exists here however we are all carbon based and all are produced by
>> the same system.
>>
>> A level of understanding about biology is required most authors simply
>> don't have. So much of scifi aliens fall under archtypical categories which
>> I am ok with honestly.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

Sure . But where were the stone age species when the Ancients were running
around? Where were the TL7 equivalents? Even taking the very smallest
numbers for each variable in the eqauation there should be hundreds of
thousands, if not millions of species out there along the spectrum. Maybe
some are done in by Malthusian, some by atomic warfare, etc etc but if
there were 5 Major Races and dozens of Minors in the time of the 3I, where
are the equivalents of the Primordials and Ancients? I guess it's possible
they went Ur-Quan or Kafer on them but that's pretty damned dark.

OTOH, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence so best not to jump to
TOO many conclusions but Traveller seems to fall into the idea that it's
happening now without the hint that it happened before. Star Trek, is also
guilty of this to a large degree. Fermi, of course postulated the possible
answers but I don't find many of them plausible... the most plausible
being that they are everywhere and that leads to tinfoil hat conspiracy
stuff which strains credulity, too...

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM, John Potter <> wrote:

>
>
> Dave and I discussed this a little on the side there are references to
> Primordial species in the Traveller time line predating the Ancients by
> around 1 billion years.
>
> Sources sighted
> http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/TravellerIntegratedTimeline.pdf
>
> But like all things our galaxy is a living thing stars explode and reform
> planets get destroyed or flung off into the cosmos. And empty space is
> 'really' empty. Find a derelict of anything in empty space is nigh
> impossible which is why it makes good story fodder.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>
>>
>> Does bring to mind a core concept that of Fermi's Paradox. None of
>> the solutions are particularly plausible to me. Noone defies the Galactic
>> Federation/Empire to smuggle us some TL10 widgets for a profit? Simply
>> falling back on "space is big" doesn't grasp the problem that there should
>> be tens of thousands of species at comparable development broadcasting
>> probably indecipherable gibberish before they nuke themselves or fall
>> victim to a Gamma Ray Burst, much less start flying out before joining
>> and/or getting absorbed by the Galactic Gubmint.
>>
>> Traveller's idea is still relatively unique: they're out there and
>> they're human. Kind of. And there's some strange critters, etc. The one
>> thing I find lacking in the Traveller Universe is that outside of the
>> Ancient's there's no other evidence of ancient species. Grandpa should
>> have been running into a Sentient Mileau or something like that. Well
>> perhaps he did but spun them off into the Star Control Universe, he he.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:52 AM, John Potter <>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In an author's case (printed medium) I feel that the imagination is the
>>> limiting factor. We only have a sample size of 1 for how life can evolve
>>> (our world). I grant you there is diversity within the over arching system
>>> that exists here however we are all carbon based and all are produced by
>>> the same system.
>>>
>>> A level of understanding about biology is required most authors simply
>>> don't have. So much of scifi aliens fall under archtypical categories which
>>> I am ok with honestly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> would have been deserved.
>
>

I would slightly disagree with you. So I will start with a couple of facts

*Galactic Data:*
*Diameter: 100k-120k light years
Radius: 50k-60k light years
Thickness: ~1000 light years
Number of Stars: 300 +/- 100 billion stars
Spiral Pattern Rotation” ~50 million years*

Charted space occurs in less than 1% of the volume of our single galaxy.
The only reason it 'feels' occupied is that the Ancients moved homosapiens
to other places that could support that 'specific' type of life.

The statistical numbers you are referring to cover the cosmos as we
currently understand it not just our single galaxy (if I am remembering
correctly).

While I agree that life out there is possible how possible is it in less
than 1% volume of our own galaxy?

And ultimately in Traveller's case, simply no one wrote any (or very
little) concerning anything other than the cannon species;

Aslan
Hiver
Human (and variants)
Ishkur
K'kree
Vargr

Which is 6 major species written about in the setting. Not counting any
minor ones commented about in adventures and other references.

Charted space seems pretty full of 'other' lifeforms to me given the
statistical size of the volume of space we are talking about.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sure . But where were the stone age species when the Ancients were
> running around? Where were the TL7 equivalents? Even taking the very
> smallest numbers for each variable in the eqauation there should be
> hundreds of thousands, if not millions of species out there along the
> spectrum. Maybe some are done in by Malthusian, some by atomic warfare,
> etc etc but if there were 5 Major Races and dozens of Minors in the time of
> the 3I, where are the equivalents of the Primordials and Ancients? I guess
> it's possible they went Ur-Quan or Kafer on them but that's pretty damned
> dark.
>
> OTOH, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence so best not to jump
> to TOO many conclusions but Traveller seems to fall into the idea that it's
> happening now without the hint that it happened before. Star Trek, is also
> guilty of this to a large degree. Fermi, of course postulated the possible
> answers but I don't find many of them plausible... the most plausible
> being that they are everywhere and that leads to tinfoil hat conspiracy
> stuff which strains credulity, too...
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM, John Potter <>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Dave and I discussed this a little on the side there are references to
>> Primordial species in the Traveller time line predating the Ancients by
>> around 1 billion years.
>>
>> Sources sighted
>> http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/TravellerIntegratedTimeline.pdf
>>
>> But like all things our galaxy is a living thing stars explode and reform
>> planets get destroyed or flung off into the cosmos. And empty space is
>> 'really' empty. Find a derelict of anything in empty space is nigh
>> impossible which is why it makes good story fodder.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Master Uxi <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Does bring to mind a core concept that of Fermi's Paradox. None of
>>> the solutions are particularly plausible to me. Noone defies the Galactic
>>> Federation/Empire to smuggle us some TL10 widgets for a profit? Simply
>>> falling back on "space is big" doesn't grasp the problem that there should
>>> be tens of thousands of species at comparable development broadcasting
>>> probably indecipherable gibberish before they nuke themselves or fall
>>> victim to a Gamma Ray Burst, much less start flying out before joining
>>> and/or getting absorbed by the Galactic Gubmint.
>>>
>>> Traveller's idea is still relatively unique: they're out there and
>>> they're human. Kind of. And there's some strange critters, etc. The one
>>> thing I find lacking in the Traveller Universe is that outside of the
>>> Ancient's there's no other evidence of ancient species. Grandpa should
>>> have been running into a Sentient Mileau or something like that. Well
>>> perhaps he did but spun them off into the Star Control Universe, he he.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:52 AM, John Potter <>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In an author's case (printed medium) I feel that the imagination is the
>>>> limiting factor. We only have a sample size of 1 for how life can evolve
>>>> (our world). I grant you there is diversity within the over arching system
>>>> that exists here however we are all carbon based and all are produced by
>>>> the same system.
>>>>
>>>> A level of understanding about biology is required most authors simply
>>>> don't have. So much of scifi aliens fall under archtypical categories which
>>>> I am ok with honestly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
>> would have been deserved.
>>
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.