Thread: Who gets the boot, and who gets bypassed?

The talk of Solee got me wondering - which of the states and planets initially opposing the RC actually get overthrown/forced into capitulation, and which (if any) get bypassed - left for another day.

With the adventure hooks in PoT, there's a definite overthrow coming for Keipes (the guys with the meson cannon & a space fleet) and Futok (the ones with the nutty prophet). Montezuma seems to be one that gets hit if they misbehave (al la BL scenario) otherwise left until more pressing matters are dealt with. Kide does not have a solid hit as an adventure hook in PoT - so I wonder if it was more up in the air than the others. I actually have a soft spot for Arturo, the brilliant & paranoid leader there. Shenk, with one of the TEDs trying to make the best of the inevitable re-contact with interstellar society brings an interesting option to mind - the RC deciding to work with some reasonable TEDs to bring them around to a more enlightened way of thinking.

I'm sure there was not a definite roadmap, but I was wondering if the evolution of the RC was seen as RC-uber alles (at least in the Old Expanses and surrounds, or much more fine-textured than that?

Eamon

And of course how many worlds classified as TEDs by the RC and therefore bad guys were only classified as such because those worlds had resources the RC wanted?

Antony

Eamon--

In case you're asking me (and if you're not, sorry) I think it's pretty
obvious that my memory on these details is moldy and furry. So I'll
respond to two points.

(And I know I said my previous post would be my last word on this, but a)
what can I say, I get excited, and b) I also am striving to answer every
question asked of me.)

1. The adventure hooks were intended to do what they apparently did very
well: get people excited about all of the cool things happening, and that
they would be involved in, because they were adventure hooks. Which also
means that since we've told all the TNE players out there to "play these
scenarios out and see what happens to you," we have spawned some number of
parallel universes re: "what really happened in TNE." That means to some
extent when we say, "this is your adventure, what happens to you is what
really happened," we have to maintain a loose hold to allow those
different results to still remain within the larger thrust. And speaking
as a ref, I want my players to succeed--I want them to earn it, but I do
want them to succeed--so there is an assumption that they can win these
scenarios.

2. Larger thrust: In RPGs what we are dealing with is collaborative
fiction in that we encourage the players to craft their own portions of
the story that can still remain in our larger thrust. The larger thrust
when I arrived at GDW was "Star Vikings and Long ships" which translates
to "RC and Clippers," and that was still the larger thrust when GDW went
down. However, in any creative venture you have to allow for the fact that
that larger thrust will become colored by other things that emerge, like
Solee. (At a certain point you must realize that the larger thrust will
start revealing things about itself and doing things on its own and you
must allow for that. In cases where people stick too close to the original
script without allowing for, "this no longer makes sense," you get the
Star Wars prequels where the Jedi were a bunch of buffoons who say, "I've
got a bad feeling about this," but charge into it anyway with predictable
results.) So, with respect to Solee, who is to say that "Star Vikings and
Long ships" in reality doesn't turn out to be "Star Vikings and their
buddies the Visigoths and Ostrogoths and Huns" but to the average observer
that appears to be, "A bunch of barbarians passed through here with lots
of noise," which comes back to "Star Vikings and Long ships" but just in a
looser definition.

Which is a long winded way to reply "Yes," and "Yes" to your question, "I
was wondering if the evolution of the RC was seen as RC-uber alles (at
least in the Old Expanses and surrounds, or much more fine-textured than
that?"

Does that make sense? In other words, Eamon, your thinking is correct. As
if my opinion about it matters, which it doesn't except to the extent that
you care, which you do enough to ask the question.

Dave

> The talk of Solee got me wondering - which of the states and planets
initially opposing the RC actually get overthrown/forced into
> capitulation, and which (if any) get bypassed - left for another day.
>
> With the adventure hooks in PoT, there's a definite overthrow coming for
Keipes (the guys with the meson cannon & a space fleet) and Futok (the
ones with the nutty prophet). Montezuma seems to be one that gets hit if
they misbehave (al la BL scenario) otherwise left until more pressing
matters are dealt with. Kide does not have a solid hit as an adventure
hook in PoT - so I wonder if it was more up in the air than the others.
I
> actually have a soft spot for Arturo, the brilliant & paranoid leader
there. Shenk, with one of the TEDs trying to make the best of the
inevitable re-contact with interstellar society brings an interesting
option to mind - the RC deciding to work with some reasonable TEDs to
bring them around to a more enlightened way of thinking.
>
> I'm sure there was not a definite roadmap, but I was wondering if the
evolution of the RC was seen as RC-uber alles (at least in the Old
Expanses and surrounds, or much more fine-textured than that?
>
> Eamon
>

Antony--

You are correct, BUT, in general terms we did intend for the RC to be the
"white hats," in a universe where hard decisions had to be made for the
"greater good." But if you look at GDW RPGs of the period, T2K, DC, TNE,
there is a common thread of, "these are the people it is okay to kill,"
and the TEDs were some of those.

I just intended in TNE for there to be a little more in-game room for
people to contemplate the repercussions of "these are the people it is
okay to kill," and I think you're tapped into that.

Dave

> And of course how many worlds classified as TEDs by the RC and therefore
> bad guys were only classified as such because those worlds had resources
> the RC wanted?
>
> Antony
>
>

One if the great facets of TNE was it's moral compass. While the
moral ambivalence of the Imperium was rightfully rebuked, we
still saw realistic shades of gray ala Cosmic Fire.
There seemed to be a couple obvious profiles for similar in the
PoT nuggets. The Hivers and their intent with the Dawn League (if
not the relationship with the Ithklur) a possibly big one.
Sandman had possibilities, as there are going to be more than a
few Cynta Lawters in the Coalition, much less outside it
(especially in the Regency).
Curious what ideas you might have for others, Dave. Even if none
have been brewing for a decade, maybe you'd enjoy
brainstorming... I always enjoy the left hooks you throw at
Traveller staples, if not paradigms


---
from my T989

Gary!

> One if the great facets of TNE was it's moral compass.

Thank you! That was very important to me from the very beginning.

>While the moral ambivalence of the Imperium was rightfully rebuked, we
still saw realistic shades of gray ala Cosmic Fire.

> There seemed to be a couple obvious profiles for similar in the PoT
nuggets. The Hivers and their intent with the Dawn League (if not the
relationship with the Ithklur) a possibly big one. Sandman had
possibilities, as there > are going to be more than a few Cynta Lawters
in the Coalition, much less outside it (especially in the Regency).

Yes there were "Grey hats among the white" in PoT and Star Vikings as
well, IIRC. I recognize the name Cynta Lauter, but can't place it.

> Curious what ideas you might have for others, Dave. Even if none have
been brewing for a decade, maybe you'd enjoy brainstorming... I always
enjoy the left hooks you throw at Traveller staples, if not paradigms

What do you mean by "have for others"? Other NPCs, other adventures, other
players? As for "brainstorming," I think you have hit the nail on the
head. In the past couple days I have noticed that I have started to
transition from, "yeah, here's what we had in mind," to, "we hadn't gotten
that far, but maybe it would go this way."

At the risk of getting myself in trouble with The Faithful, could you
unpack a little more what you mean by, "I always enjoy the left hooks you
throw at Traveller staples, if not paradigms"?

Like anyone, I am a sucker for "I like what you did..." and I can respond
with, "yeah, did that on purpose," or "Did I write that?" (Where "did I
write that?" is honest, not an attempt to wriggle out from an ill-advised
windmill tilt.)

Dave

By others, I mean other "cosmic fires." Events to incite player
reflections if not in-game reality checks.
I'm speaking more in generalities wrt "left hooks" and thinking
psi and the Empress Wave, AI with Virus, etc. IOW, reaffirming
core concepts of Traveller, but with a fresh perspective.


---
from my T989

wrote:


Gary!

> One if the great facets of TNE was it's moral compass.

Thank you! That was very important to me from the very beginning.

>While the moral ambivalence of the Imperium was rightfully
rebuked, we
still saw realistic shades of gray ala Cosmic Fire.

> There seemed to be a couple obvious profiles for similar in the
PoT
nuggets. The Hivers and their intent with the Dawn League (if not
the
relationship with the Ithklur) a possibly big one. Sandman had
possibilities, as there > are going to be more than a few Cynta
Lawters
in the Coalition, much less outside it (especially in the
Regency).

Yes there were "Grey hats among the white" in PoT and Star
Vikings as
well, IIRC. I recognize the name Cynta Lauter, but can't place
it.

> Curious what ideas you might have for others, Dave. Even if
none have
been brewing for a decade, maybe you'd enjoy brainstorming... I
always
enjoy the left hooks you throw at Traveller staples, if not
paradigms

What do you mean by "have for others"? Other NPCs, other
adventures, other
players? As for "brainstorming," I think you have hit the nail on
the
head. In the past couple days I have noticed that I have started
to
transition from, "yeah, here's what we had in mind," to, "we
hadn't gotten
that far, but maybe it would go this way."

At the risk of getting myself in trouble with The Faithful, could
you
unpack a little more what you mean by, "I always enjoy the left
hooks you
throw at Traveller staples, if not paradigms"?

Like anyone, I am a sucker for "I like what you did..." and I can
respond
with, "yeah, did that on purpose," or "Did I write that?" (Where
"did I
write that?" is honest, not an attempt to wriggle out from an
ill-advised
windmill tilt.)

Dave

Gary--

> By others, I mean other "cosmic fires." Events to incite player
reflections if not in-game reality checks.

My first thoughts include, "Hmm, not sure if I remember any," and "I tried
to keep that compass front-and-center as much as possible."

Follow-on thoughts include, "Well, there would have been the Black
Curtain, where "in order to save the village, we had to destroy it," and
the little Greek Chorus of later historical accounts of how the SVs were
remembered.

I'll try to think of more.

> I'm speaking more in generalities wrt "left hooks" and thinking psi and
the Empress Wave, AI with Virus, etc. IOW, reaffirming core concepts of
Traveller, but with a fresh perspective.

Whether a lot of people see it or not, I was very committed to the notion
that everything officially published for Traveller was true, and trying to
return to some of those and give them more attention, such as psi with EW,
Cymbeline chips, etc. And as I've remarked before, although some saw me as
the anti-Marc, in my mind I was being very Marc-ian in taking stuff that
was established, and then showing different aspects or truths behind it.
Marc might not have always gone the way I did, but the principle that
there is more behind these established "facts" than meets the eye was very
Marc-ian.

Dave

As an aside it should be noted that the Regency in at least one specific
case 'bred' a virus strain under order from Norris (only guessing Norris
ordered it but it makes sense since he sends his adopted son out on a ship
with it installed on it.)

So I think we can assume while the Regency public is mentally traumatized
by the very concept of the Virus.

The powers that be are not so squeamish. And apparently have the
technological know how to actually breed 'virus' strains. (no idea how many
attempts before they got what they wanted)

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 10:47 AM, <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Gary!
>
>
> > One if the great facets of TNE was it's moral compass.
>
> Thank you! That was very important to me from the very beginning.
>
>
> >While the moral ambivalence of the Imperium was rightfully rebuked, we
> still saw realistic shades of gray ala Cosmic Fire.
>
> > There seemed to be a couple obvious profiles for similar in the PoT
> nuggets. The Hivers and their intent with the Dawn League (if not the
> relationship with the Ithklur) a possibly big one. Sandman had
> possibilities, as there > are going to be more than a few Cynta Lawters
> in the Coalition, much less outside it (especially in the Regency).
>
> Yes there were "Grey hats among the white" in PoT and Star Vikings as
> well, IIRC. I recognize the name Cynta Lauter, but can't place it.
>
>
> > Curious what ideas you might have for others, Dave. Even if none have
> been brewing for a decade, maybe you'd enjoy brainstorming... I always
> enjoy the left hooks you throw at Traveller staples, if not paradigms
>
> What do you mean by "have for others"? Other NPCs, other adventures, other
> players? As for "brainstorming," I think you have hit the nail on the
> head. In the past couple days I have noticed that I have started to
> transition from, "yeah, here's what we had in mind," to, "we hadn't gotten
> that far, but maybe it would go this way."
>
> At the risk of getting myself in trouble with The Faithful, could you
> unpack a little more what you mean by, "I always enjoy the left hooks you
> throw at Traveller staples, if not paradigms"?
>
> Like anyone, I am a sucker for "I like what you did..." and I can respond
> with, "yeah, did that on purpose," or "Did I write that?" (Where "did I
> write that?" is honest, not an attempt to wriggle out from an ill-advised
> windmill tilt.)
>
> Dave
>
> --
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

> As an aside it should be noted that the Regency in at least one specific
> case 'bred' a virus strain under order from Norris (only guessing Norris
> ordered it but it makes sense since he sends his adopted son out on a ship
> with it installed on it.)

Damn, Sam, the things I write that I get reminded of.

And there was a reason why Avery's ship had that installed, because Virus
would not be affected by EW and could bring the crew home if EW fried
them. IF I'm remembering that right. And since I had forgotten I had
written it until about three minutes ago, there's no reason why you should
believe my memory.

> The powers that be are not so squeamish.

The powers that be cannot afford to be squeamish, else they would not be
in power, nor deserve to be.

> And apparently have the
> technological know how to actually breed 'virus' strains. (no idea how
> many
> attempts before they got what they wanted)

Eh, it's TL 15/16. You just open up the "Make Virus Wizard," check the
boxes for "Not kill me," "Not kill friends," "Not rampage across
universe," and hit run. Easy-peasy. :-)

Dave

On a similar note, could you say if you had any ideas for who/what
Strephon's agent "Pentecost" was? I've read those pieces of Survival
Margin repeatedly and had a number of theories.

Simliar on TNE-RCES, you once mentioned on how the EW was an integral
factor in Avery's journey (up to the Core, or at least Zho space), and how
the PC's would experience it and react and learn to live in the new
environment behind the wave similarly, if not actually with him ... (on his
way back?)

Any eludication on how far to the Core you saw him going or not would be
most cool.

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:37 PM, <> wrote:

>
> > As an aside it should be noted that the Regency in at least one
> specific
> > case 'bred' a virus strain under order from Norris (only guessing Norris
> > ordered it but it makes sense since he sends his adopted son out on a
> ship
> > with it installed on it.)
>
> Damn, Sam, the things I write that I get reminded of.
>
> And there was a reason why Avery's ship had that installed, because Virus
> would not be affected by EW and could bring the crew home if EW fried
> them. IF I'm remembering that right. And since I had forgotten I had
> written it until about three minutes ago, there's no reason why you should
> believe my memory.
>
>
> > The powers that be are not so squeamish.
>
> The powers that be cannot afford to be squeamish, else they would not be
> in power, nor deserve to be.
>
>
> > And apparently have the
> > technological know how to actually breed 'virus' strains. (no idea how
> > many
> > attempts before they got what they wanted)
>
> Eh, it's TL 15/16. You just open up the "Make Virus Wizard," check the
> boxes for "Not kill me," "Not kill friends," "Not rampage across
> universe," and hit run. Easy-peasy. :-)
>
> Dave
>
>
>

In the CT AM4 - Zho book pg 10, 2nd column, lower right corner, it states
(in regards to the ancients' map projector that caused the core
expeditions.) that the closest approach at the time to the core reached
5,000 parsecs (16,300 ly) from the boarders of Zho space. And that
individual vessels had explored an additional 1,000 parsecs beyond
the boundaries of the corridor from the map projector.

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Master Uxi <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> On a similar note, could you say if you had any ideas for who/what
> Strephon's agent "Pentecost" was? I've read those pieces of Survival
> Margin repeatedly and had a number of theories.
>
> Simliar on TNE-RCES, you once mentioned on how the EW was an integral
> factor in Avery's journey (up to the Core, or at least Zho space), and how
> the PC's would experience it and react and learn to live in the new
> environment behind the wave similarly, if not actually with him ... (on his
> way back?)
>
> Any eludication on how far to the Core you saw him going or not would be
> most cool.
>
> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:37 PM, <> wrote:
>
>>
>> > As an aside it should be noted that the Regency in at least one
>> specific
>> > case 'bred' a virus strain under order from Norris (only guessing Norris
>> > ordered it but it makes sense since he sends his adopted son out on a
>> ship
>> > with it installed on it.)
>>
>> Damn, Sam, the things I write that I get reminded of.
>>
>> And there was a reason why Avery's ship had that installed, because Virus
>> would not be affected by EW and could bring the crew home if EW fried
>> them. IF I'm remembering that right. And since I had forgotten I had
>> written it until about three minutes ago, there's no reason why you should
>> believe my memory.
>>
>>
>> > The powers that be are not so squeamish.
>>
>> The powers that be cannot afford to be squeamish, else they would not be
>> in power, nor deserve to be.
>>
>>
>> > And apparently have the
>> > technological know how to actually breed 'virus' strains. (no idea how
>> > many
>> > attempts before they got what they wanted)
>>
>> Eh, it's TL 15/16. You just open up the "Make Virus Wizard," check the
>> boxes for "Not kill me," "Not kill friends," "Not rampage across
>> universe," and hit run. Easy-peasy. :-)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

Pentecost was a psi-repeater guy on the chain that led out to the VLBI
stations, as I recall. You've probably read it way more recently than I
have.

IF memory serves, Avery went out to gather information on the relay
stations that went out in SM, as well as on the nature of the advancing
wave, to use this information to allow the Regency to prepare for it. Was
some of that stuff done before Avery? Maybe, maybe not, as the Rebellion
and Virus were distracting people a lot. The idea was that Avery's mission
would be the first one to attempt to comprehensively figure all of that
stuff out, because that would be the only way to allow PCs to be involved
in it. If all you do is write Encyclopaedia Galactica entires that say,
"30 years ago, people figured this out," it's not a game, it's an
encyclopedia-reading project.

> On a similar note, could you say if you had any ideas for who/what
> Strephon's agent "Pentecost" was? I've read those pieces of Survival
> Margin repeatedly and had a number of theories.
>
> Simliar on TNE-RCES, you once mentioned on how the EW was an integral
> factor in Avery's journey (up to the Core, or at least Zho space), and how
> the PC's would experience it and react and learn to live in the new
> environment behind the wave similarly, if not actually with him ... (on
> his
> way back?)
>
> Any eludication on how far to the Core you saw him going or not would be
> most cool.
>
> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 12:37 PM, <> wrote:
>
>>

In fact, that was the general intent of my last two posts - I just did not communicate it well enough. Whilst it's great to get GDW-era info from you Dave, viewpoints and a good old-fashioned discussion are even better.

Eamon

>From: "" <>

>Curious what ideas you might have for others, Dave. Even if none have been brewing for a decade, maybe you'd enjoy

>brainstorming... I always enjoy the left hooks you throw at Traveller staples, if not paradigms

Eamon--

Sorry if I missed your point. Try again with your original questions if
you like. This wrapping my head back around the old world that I used to
live in is a surprisingly involved process.

> In fact, that was the general intent of my last two posts - I just did not
> communicate it well enough. Whilst it's great to get GDW-era info from you
> Dave, viewpoints and a good old-fashioned discussion are even better.
>
> Eamon