Thread: Where are the EM Weapons?

Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's really
a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
surprised if there was a fundamental shift.

This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
over the horizon. It's here now and in use
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).

In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
(though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.

The article mentions that the Active Denial System
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in Afghanistan
but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
would've been an excellent test of the concept.

Thoughts?

\_/
DED

1. EM attacks seem a secondary worry in warfare where it may be present.
For example all bomb pumped X-Ray laser warheads from space ship missiles
produce EM fields when they detonate to produce the laser energy.

2. in the 70s the common person even the folks that designed TNE knew very
little about EM effects as compared to today. However the fact that a
nuclear explosions produced this effect was uncommon knowledge at the time
which is why it was probably left out. Also it may have assumed that, yes
the TL levels made it a moot point.

If we assume that TL 15ish construction tech is sufficient to
build habitats that are dangerous to human life, radiation, toxins, ect.
the the shielding technology probably does exist to protect common
electronics at a given introductory tech level and beyond. Otherwise
planets/solar systems with particularly strong EM fields would be Amber
Zones for travel and worlds would simply would be skipped.

However the effectiveness of such weaponry where the tech isn't maintained
properly or at a TL lower then the introduction point of battlefield
effective EM weaponry may very well be a major boon to a combat force
engaging enemies not properly protected.

EMP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Pinch device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics) somewhat
related.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 6:54 AM, DED <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
> right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's really
> a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
> editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
> surprised if there was a fundamental shift.
>
> This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
> being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
> over the horizon. It's here now and in use
> (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).
>
> In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
> it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
> as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
> affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
> factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
> civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
> (though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
> avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.
>
> The article mentions that the Active Denial System
> (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in Afghanistan
> but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
> would've been an excellent test of the concept.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> \_/
> DED
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

Oh one other note EMP isn't going to stop someone from using a Crossbow
with excessive pull poundage from ramming a bolt through the face plate of
your combat armor.

Cheers

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 7:52 AM, John Potter <> wrote:

> 1. EM attacks seem a secondary worry in warfare where it may be present.
> For example all bomb pumped X-Ray laser warheads from space ship missiles
> produce EM fields when they detonate to produce the laser energy.
>
> 2. in the 70s the common person even the folks that designed TNE knew very
> little about EM effects as compared to today. However the fact that a
> nuclear explosions produced this effect was uncommon knowledge at the time
> which is why it was probably left out. Also it may have assumed that, yes
> the TL levels made it a moot point.
>
> If we assume that TL 15ish construction tech is sufficient to
> build habitats that are dangerous to human life, radiation, toxins, ect.
> the the shielding technology probably does exist to protect common
> electronics at a given introductory tech level and beyond. Otherwise
> planets/solar systems with particularly strong EM fields would be Amber
> Zones for travel and worlds would simply would be skipped.
>
> However the effectiveness of such weaponry where the tech isn't maintained
> properly or at a TL lower then the introduction point of battlefield
> effective EM weaponry may very well be a major boon to a combat force
> engaging enemies not properly protected.
>
> EMP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
> Pinch device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics) somewhat
> related.
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 6:54 AM, DED <> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
>> right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's really
>> a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
>> editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
>> surprised if there was a fundamental shift.
>>
>> This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
>> being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
>> over the horizon. It's here now and in use
>> (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).
>>
>> In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
>> it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
>> as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
>> affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
>> factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
>> civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
>> (though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
>> avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.
>>
>> The article mentions that the Active Denial System
>> (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in Afghanistan
>> but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
>> would've been an excellent test of the concept.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> \_/
>> DED
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> would have been deserved.
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

EMP hardening in buildings has been around for quite some time already ... some of those that I've seen included metal walls 1/2" (12mm) thick, airlock doors and mesh covers on the air vents - all with the idea of stopping a strong EMP ... satellites, military ones anyway, have a version also but much lighter in weight, different tech approach ?  for vehicle electronics the military has what's called a battle override switch which is used when the fuzes pop, hmmm, also think that if warned in advance they'd disconnect their antenna's so as to eliminate that route for the pulse...
 

>________________________________
From: DED
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:54 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Where are the EM Weapons?
>
>
> 
>Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
>right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's really
>a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
>editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
>surprised if there was a fundamental shift.
>
>This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
>being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
>over the horizon. It's here now and in use
>(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).
>
>In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
>it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
>as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
>affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
>factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
>civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
>(though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
>avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.
>
>The article mentions that the Active Denial System
>(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in Afghanistan
>but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
>would've been an excellent test of the concept.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>\_/
>DED
>
>
>
>

I'd love to have an EMP grenade that shut down power armour!

--- In , Tim O'Reilly <ret7army@...> wrote:
>
> EMP hardening in buildings has been around for quite some time already ... some of those that I've seen included metal walls 1/2" (12mm) thick, airlock doors and mesh covers on the air vents - all with the idea of stopping a strong EMP ... satellites, military ones anyway, have a version also but much lighter in weight, different tech approach ?  for vehicle electronics the military has what's called a battle override switch which is used when the fuzes pop, hmmm, also think that if warned in advance they'd disconnect their antenna's so as to eliminate that route for the pulse...
>  
>
>
> >________________________________
From: DED dedly@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:54 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Where are the EM Weapons?
> >
> >
> > 
> >Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
> >right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's really
> >a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
> >editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
> >surprised if there was a fundamental shift.
> >
> >This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
> >being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
> >over the horizon. It's here now and in use
> >(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).
> >
> >In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
> >it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
> >as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
> >affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
> >factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
> >civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
> >(though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
> >avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.
> >
> >The article mentions that the Active Denial System
> >(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in Afghanistan
> >but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
> >would've been an excellent test of the concept.
> >
> >Thoughts?
> >
> >\_/
> >DED
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Unfortunately Powered Armor at TL 15 would probably be hardened vs EM also
as it is used for space walking operations also or just consider battle
field conditions it was designed to enter. EMP from nuclear weapons maybe a
real concern at TL 15.

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Jake <> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I'd love to have an EMP grenade that shut down power armour!
>
> --- In , Tim O'Reilly <ret7army@...> wrote:
> >
> > EMP hardening in buildings has been around for quite some time already
> ... some of those that I've seen included metal walls 1/2" (12mm) thick,
> airlock doors and mesh covers on the air vents - all with the idea of
> stopping a strong EMP ... satellites, military ones anyway, have a version
> also but much lighter in weight, different tech approach ? for vehicle
> electronics the military has what's called a battle override switch which
> is used when the fuzes pop, hmmm, also think that if warned in advance
> they'd disconnect their antenna's so as to eliminate that route for the
> pulse...
> > Â
> >
> >
> > >________________________________
From: DED dedly@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:54 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Where are the EM Weapons?
> > >
> > >
> > >Â
> > >Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
> > >right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's
> really
> > >a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
> > >editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
> > >surprised if there was a fundamental shift.
> > >
> > >This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
> > >being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
> > >over the horizon. It's here now and in use
> > >(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).
> > >
> > >In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
> > >it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
> > >as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
> > >affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
> > >factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
> > >civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
> > >(though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
> > >avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.
> > >
> > >The article mentions that the Active Denial System
> > >(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in
> Afghanistan
> > >but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
> > >would've been an excellent test of the concept.
> > >
> > >Thoughts?
> > >
> > >\_/
> > >DED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

EMP should, and is, a concern for any TL after nucs become available.  Hardening something like a suit would be something in the planners minds from the get-go, being able to effectively accomplish that is another matter.
TL 15 for a certainty methinks
Tim

>________________________________
From: John Potter
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: Where are the EM Weapons?
>
>
> 
>Unfortunately Powered Armor at TL 15 would probably be hardened vs EM also as it is used for space walking operations also or just consider battle field conditions it was designed to enter. EMP from nuclear weapons maybe a real concern at TL 15.
>
>
>On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Jake <> wrote:
>
> 
>>I'd love to have an EMP grenade that shut down power armour!
>>
>>--- In , Tim O'Reilly <ret7army@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> EMP hardening in buildings has been around for quite some time already ... some of those that I've seen included metal walls 1/2" (12mm) thick, airlock doors and mesh covers on the air vents - all with the idea of stopping a strong EMP ... satellites, military ones anyway, have a version also but much lighter in weight, different tech approach ?  for vehicle electronics the military has what's called a battle override switch which is used when the fuzes pop, hmmm, also think that if warned in advance they'd disconnect their antenna's so as to eliminate that route for the pulse...
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> >________________________________
From: DED dedly@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:54 AM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Where are the EM Weapons?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 
>>
>>> >Obviously a game created in the 70's isn't going to get everything
>>> >right. However, except for /Emperor's Arsenal/ (from T4), there's really
>>> >a dearth of non-lethal weapons in most of Traveller's subsequent
>>> >editions. Ok, I'll admit I don't know what Mongoose gave us, but I'd be
>>> >surprised if there was a fundamental shift.
>>> >
>>> >This article (www.economist.com/node/21532245) talks about EM weapons
>>> >being used to disable the electronics on vehicles. It's not something
>>> >over the horizon. It's here now and in use
>>> >(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-18_Growler).
>>> >
>>> >In applying this towards Traveller, what would we say their use is? Is
>>> >it primarily a weapon that higher TL armies use against lower TL armies
>>> >as an act of mercy? Do higher TL worlds have the capability to provide
>>> >affordable shielding against EM attacks such that it really isn't a
>>> >factor? Is it just a means for local police and armies to control the
>>> >civilian population during uprisings without directly harming then
>>> >(though vehicles still have residual momentum)? Perhaps it's another
>>> >avenue that Virus exploited when bringing about the Collapse.
>>> >
>>> >The article mentions that the Active Denial System
>>> >(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) was deployed in Afghanistan
>>> >but never used. In fact, it was shipped home. It's too bad because it
>>> >would've been an excellent test of the concept.
>>> >
>>> >Thoughts?
>>> >
>>> >\_/
>>> >DED
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you would have been deserved.
>
>
>
>