Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
I do know that until it is explicitly published otherwise, he would prefer to keep Norris' status as is.
My personal view is that Norris is asexual, others that he is homosexual. Marc has stated otherwise, but prefers to leave it for a future author to fill in the gap rather than say one way or the other.
So basically, we get to argue about it for a while.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:44 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on
> details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
>
> I do know that until it is explicitly published otherwise, he would prefer
> to keep Norris' status as is.
>
> My personal view is that Norris is asexual, others that he is homosexual.
> Marc has stated otherwise, but prefers to leave it for a future author to
> fill in the gap rather than say one way or the other.
>
> So basically, we get to argue about it for a while.
>
>
>
All I can go on is with what I was told. BTW, I did find the email, and it was unequivocally stated as I remembered. Amazingly, that was almost a dozen years ago!
Personally, the reason I like it that way (though stopped barely short of outright stating it in Spinward States) is because it completely recasts his personal life into something that was far happier and far more joyful (until the end). It basically took his rather empty personal life (as highlighted in RSB) and flipped it into a personal life that was actually filled with love and joy. The end was unhappy, but that was because the love of his life died and because he was heavily weighed down by the huge sacrifice he forced his daughter to make. But the vast majority of his life was happy and he got to spend it with the person he most loved.
To be blunt, I view it that way because, after RSB, his life makes way more sense with that interpretation.
Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
In fairness to Marc, I don’t see how he could be involved, anyway. The decision really appears to have been made after he left GDW, as it is the Regency Sourcebook that basically lays the foundation for the interpretation that Norris is gay.
Asexual makes the most sense, given he had to resort to the cloning.
Homosexual, especially in 21st century context makes no sense. Fitting the
whole Imperial and aristocratic nobility motif fits with a more historical
method where marriage is part of politics, alliance, bloodline propagation,
etc. Who one has romantic attachment to is secondly, if not tertiary to
such concerns as duty. Pleasure even further down.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 10:43 Mario Butter
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> Is there a reason it matters?
>
> --
> Mario
>
> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:44 AM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on
>> details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
>>
>> I do know that until it is explicitly published otherwise, he would
>> prefer to keep Norris' status as is.
>>
>> My personal view is that Norris is asexual, others that he is homosexual.
>> Marc has stated otherwise, but prefers to leave it for a future author to
>> fill in the gap rather than say one way or the other.
>>
>> So basically, we get to argue about it for a while.
>>
>>
>
>
It matters no more and no less than any other point of Traveller canon. And, given that this entire mailing list is devoted to discussing points of Traveller, I fail to see why it would be any less important than any other point of Traveller discussion.
Within the context of Traveller subjects, sure, why not? It is a basic question about one of the most fundamental individuals in all of Traveller lore. So, sure, it matters as much as any other Traveller topic, and more than many.
Does it matter about Norris? Sure. It helps understand how his life unfolded. However, he is a wonderful, multifaceted character with incredible nuance either way.
Finally, Harold asked. I answered with what I knew. Don answered with what he knows. If no one else cares or wants to discuss it, then, no, I guess it doesn’t matter at all.
>>Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
>In fairness to Marc, I don’t see how he could be involved, anyway. The decision really appears to have been made after he left GDW, as it is the Regency Sourcebook that basically lays the foundation for the interpretation that Norris is gay.
Geez, I typed that horribly. All I meant to say is that it appears (I can’t know; I wasn’t there) that the decision on Norris’ sexuality was made during the “TNE” years, and that (as far as I know) Marc wasn’t there and actively involved in making decisions at the time. I apologize for being unclear in the quoted message.
> >>Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on
> details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
>
> >In fairness to Marc, I don’t see how he could be involved, anyway. The
> decision really appears to have been made after he left GDW, as it is the
> Regency Sourcebook that basically lays the foundation for the
> interpretation that Norris is gay.
>
> Geez, I typed that horribly. All I meant to say is that it appears (I
> can’t know; I wasn’t there) that the decision on Norris’ sexuality was made
> during the “TNE” years, and that (as far as I know) Marc wasn’t there and
> actively involved in making decisions at the time. I apologize for being
> unclear in the quoted message.
>
>
>
> Mike West
>
>
>
>
>
>
Asexual makes the most sense, given he had to resort to the cloning. Homosexual, especially in 21st century context makes no sense. Fitting the whole Imperial and aristocratic nobility motif fits with a more historical method where marriage is part of politics, alliance, bloodline propagation, etc. Who one has romantic attachment to is secondly, if not tertiary to such concerns as duty. Pleasure even further down.
There are plenty of examples in history where both men and women avoided attachments and instead concentrated on their careers, including any number of religious leaders. You are correct however in that nobles more than others are compelled by custom to partner and produce offspring. Resorting to cloning would perhaps represent an alternative means of doing so.
There is also the question of whether homosexuality or bisexuality will even be a "thing" thousands of years from now, given that those things are in part genetic, and it is unlikely that future scientists will be able to avoid tinkering in order to perfect humanity, not just make us better at adapting to the multitude of possible environments that exist in the Universe. Of course that also calls into question whether or not sexual orientations that deviate from the norm are in fact "defects" that must be corrected. I will leave those sorts of judgments for future generations.
I think that ultimately the correct answer to "he is or isn't he?" is no answer--leave it open. Just leaving it open was a significant step in bringing the game culturally forward. If Marc Miller doesn't think so...well I'm not going to have that argument with him.
I just think it's a silly discussion; none of my players has ever thought
to get dolled up and go trolling for nobles in the local bars for a hookup.
And we've come to think of the Imperium as a fairly enlightened society, so
something like being a homosexual wouldn't even be blackmail worthy...
--
Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:01 PM, Harold Hale
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> *Asexual makes the most sense, given he had to resort to the cloning. *
> *Homosexual, especially in 21st century context makes no sense. Fitting
> the whole Imperial and aristocratic nobility motif fits with a more
> historical method where marriage is part of politics, alliance, bloodline
> propagation, etc. Who one has romantic attachment to is secondly, if not
> tertiary to such concerns as duty. Pleasure even further down.*
>
> There are plenty of examples in history where both men and women avoided
> attachments and instead concentrated on their careers, including any number
> of religious leaders. You are correct however in that nobles more than
> others are compelled by custom to partner and produce offspring. Resorting
> to cloning would perhaps represent an alternative means of doing so.
>
> There is also the question of whether homosexuality or bisexuality will
> even be a "thing" thousands of years from now, given that those things are
> in part genetic, and it is unlikely that future scientists will be able to
> avoid tinkering in order to perfect humanity, not just make us better at
> adapting to the multitude of possible environments that exist in the
> Universe. Of course that also calls into question whether or not sexual
> orientations that deviate from the norm are in fact "defects" that must be
> corrected. I will leave those sorts of judgments for future generations.
>
> I think that ultimately the correct answer to "he is or isn't he?" is no
> answer--leave it open. Just leaving it open was a significant step in
> bringing the game culturally forward. If Marc Miller doesn't think
> so...well I'm not going to have that argument with him.
>
>
>
>
I did have a player who decided that her character (a Terran Republic Justice Ministry investigator) would seduce a local bureaucrat once in order to get access to a database the players wanted to use for an investigation, but clearly that isn't exactly the same thing. I did however allow it as part of a Persuasion roll, and in case you wondering she was successful, though now that I think about it, if the local bureaucrat had been gay, that would certainly increased the difficulty level....
Yes, I did deliberately leave it ambiguous so that GMs could make the call
they were the most comfortable with. But I also did it for a couple other
reasons, first because what if Norris and Dilgaadin shared a very strong
psionic bond, which would probably be more intense, and deeper than that
between many non-psionic married couples? Is that "gay"? That label is not
important. Would it cause tittering among junior high school students?
Maybe, which leads to the second other reason. Leaving it ambiguous is a
way of saying that those labels are not important. I've always liked the
observation that "there are two types of people, those who divide people
into two groups, and those who don't."
Re: Marc's remark, I'm sure that is accurate, Norris' personal life was
not a "secret fact" like "the Zhodani are actually nice guys," or "the
Aslan aren't a major race." It was, as I assume Marc said, not
established. We didn't have a spreadsheet with all of the NPCs and their
sexual orientation in Column B any more than we had a column for black,
white, Asian, Hispanic, Pacific islander, American Indian, or Alaskan
Native. (If the future is racist, it's no longer racist about piddling
stuff like that.)
> Dave said he deliberately left it ambiguous IIRC, to leave it up to GM.
> Doesn't really matter in big scheme of things, probably.
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 12:07 'Mike West'
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>> >>Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on
>> details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
>>
>> >In fairness to Marc, I donât see how he could be involved, anyway.
>> The
>> decision really appears to have been made after he left GDW, as it is
>> the
>> Regency Sourcebook that basically lays the foundation for the
>> interpretation that Norris is gay.
>>
>> Geez, I typed that horribly. All I meant to say is that it appears (I
>> canât know; I wasnât there) that the decision on Norrisâ sexuality
>> was made
>> during the âTNEâ years, and that (as far as I know) Marc wasnât
>> there and
>> actively involved in making decisions at the time. I apologize for being
>> unclear in the quoted message.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike West
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
I did love the psionic concept, as well, which came up in the TNE-RCES
thread back in the day. Reminds me how I wanted to explore that.
Also recall how there was a parallel with AI, particularly on the EW
concepts like sovereignty and point identity, etc.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 19:04 [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I did deliberately leave it ambiguous so that GMs could make the call
> they were the most comfortable with. But I also did it for a couple other
> reasons, first because what if Norris and Dilgaadin shared a very strong
> psionic bond, which would probably be more intense, and deeper than that
> between many non-psionic married couples? Is that "gay"? That label is not
> important. Would it cause tittering among junior high school students?
> Maybe, which leads to the second other reason. Leaving it ambiguous is a
> way of saying that those labels are not important. I've always liked the
> observation that "there are two types of people, those who divide people
> into two groups, and those who don't."
>
> Re: Marc's remark, I'm sure that is accurate, Norris' personal life was
> not a "secret fact" like "the Zhodani are actually nice guys," or "the
> Aslan aren't a major race." It was, as I assume Marc said, not
> established. We didn't have a spreadsheet with all of the NPCs and their
> sexual orientation in Column B any more than we had a column for black,
> white, Asian, Hispanic, Pacific islander, American Indian, or Alaskan
> Native. (If the future is racist, it's no longer racist about piddling
> stuff like that.)
>
>
>
> > Dave said he deliberately left it ambiguous IIRC, to leave it up to GM.
> > Doesn't really matter in big scheme of things, probably.
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 12:07 'Mike West'
>
> > [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
> >
>
> >> >>Marc Miller maintains he was not intended that way, and elaborated on
> >> details while I was working on the Mongoose Zhodani book.
> >>
>
> >> >In fairness to Marc, I donââ¬â¢t see how he could be involved, anyway.
>
>
> >> The
> >> decision really appears to have been made after he left GDW, as it is
> >> the
> >> Regency Sourcebook that basically lays the foundation for the
> >> interpretation that Norris is gay.
> >>
> >> Geez, I typed that horribly. All I meant to say is that it appears (I
>
> >> canââ¬â¢t know; I wasnââ¬â¢t there) that the decision on Norrisââ¬â¢ sexuality
> >> was made
> >> during the ââ¬ÅTNEâ⬠years, and that (as far as I know) Marc wasnââ¬â¢t
>
>
> >> there and
> >> actively involved in making decisions at the time. I apologize for being
> >> unclear in the quoted message.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike West
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>