Is a gravity well required to come out of jump? I've always believed no. Indeed, being too deep inside a gravity well can cause a jump drive to malfunction.
This comes up because one of the "hand waves" used in GT: Interstellar Wars to tell the story of how the Americans ended up going to Barnard's Star.
No, not at all, else you couldn't jump into open space, which you can. But
if you "come too close" to a gravity well impinging into J-space it will
precipitate you out. In practice I take that to mean "shallow J-space"
near the beginning or end of the jump.
Note use of "can," "will," and "in practice" referring to an utterly
imaginary thing. And I wonder why people can't use the word "unique"
correctly. Physician, euthanize thyself.
> Is a gravity well required to come out of jump? I've always believed no.Â
> Indeed, being too deep inside a gravity well can cause a jump drive to
> malfunction.
> This comes up because one of the "hand waves" used in GT: Interstellar
> Wars to tell the story of how the Americans ended up going to Barnard's
> Star.
>
>
Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
"The Jump Drive
(A.D. 2088-2098)
The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It was used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer planets and the cometary cloud."
Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se, though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed not only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to travel interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to Barnard's Star.
"Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there seemed to be little practical application
for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol, and the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into empty space was not possible. "
The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical use for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
"The first step was to locate a âjump point,â a wandering planet or browndwarf star located at a convenient
point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although locating them precisely was often
quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient location. Here the American mission planners
were lucky â a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1 starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnardâs Star."
Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which *did* need a gravity well to function.
Later in the next section...
"It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain, not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their first easy access to the nearest stars."
Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1 drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for centuries), but that is not how it is written.
The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using the
"feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you hit
a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the
mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically,
they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a working
model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!" moment
on the mathematics.
--
Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> wrote:
>
>
> Thought so.
>
> Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
>
> "The Jump Drive
> (A.D. 2088-2098)
> The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It
> was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which
> allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the
> prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It was
> used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer planets
> and the cometary cloud."
>
> Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se,
> though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther
> through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The
> canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive
> inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed not
> only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to travel
> interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they
> could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to Barnard's
> Star.
>
> "Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there seemed
> to be little practical application
> for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol, and
> the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into empty
> space was not possible. "
>
> The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical use
> for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But that
> aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump navigation
> also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the latter 21st
> century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary cloud is
> nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have made that
> next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered that they
> had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have been an
> eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
>
> "The first step was to locate a âjump point,â a wandering planet or
> browndwarf star located at a convenient
> point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although
> locating them precisely was often
> quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient
> location. Here the American mission planners
> were lucky â a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1
> starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnardâs Star."
>
> Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which
> *did* need a gravity well to function.
>
> Later in the next section...
>
> "It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in
> high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering
> medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani
> engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain,
> not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the
> technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a
> Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their
> first easy access to the nearest stars."
>
> Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could
> not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1
> drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the
> Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and
> the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for
> centuries), but that is not how it is written.
>
>
Right. The problem is explicitly as much about navigation as Jump itself.
The Terrans were still exploring the new technology while the Vilani had
the experience & knew all the dead ends (of J1 and J2).
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 11:28 Mario Butter
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>
> The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using the
> "feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you hit
> a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the
> mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically,
> they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a working
> model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!" moment
> on the mathematics.
>
> --
> Mario
>
> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thought so.
>>
>> Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
>>
>> "The Jump Drive
>> (A.D. 2088-2098)
>> The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It
>> was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which
>> allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the
>> prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It was
>> used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer planets
>> and the cometary cloud."
>>
>> Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se,
>> though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther
>> through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The
>> canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive
>> inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed not
>> only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to travel
>> interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they
>> could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to Barnard's
>> Star.
>>
>> "Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there
>> seemed to be little practical application
>> for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol,
>> and the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into
>> empty space was not possible. "
>>
>> The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical
>> use for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But
>> that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump
>> navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the
>> latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary
>> cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have
>> made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered
>> that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have
>> been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
>>
>> "The first step was to locate a âjump point,â a wandering planet or
>> browndwarf star located at a convenient
>> point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although
>> locating them precisely was often
>> quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient
>> location. Here the American mission planners
>> were lucky â a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1
>> starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnardâs Star."
>>
>> Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which
>> *did* need a gravity well to function.
>>
>> Later in the next section...
>>
>> "It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in
>> high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering
>> medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani
>> engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain,
>> not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the
>> technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a
>> Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their
>> first easy access to the nearest stars."
>>
>> Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could
>> not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1
>> drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the
>> Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and
>> the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for
>> centuries), but that is not how it is written.
>>
>
>
>
Well, note that those remarks were "Dave39;s ruling," and we know how some
sentiment runs towards Dave's rulings. Only take it to banks you don't
mind being laughed out of.
I concur with you that the passages don't seem to be written within the
established Traveller feel, but I could see granting some descriptive
license as people groped toward deriving the "quantized by parsecs" rule
that Traveller used and worked out the underlying physics. Still, as you
say, some of it makes no sense, but I always refer people to "The Picard
Maneuver" as proof that everyone in Star Trek's future except Kirk and
Spock was a complete idiot. (I don't know if it's "Picard" or "Piccard"
and I don't care.)
I especially agree that "a true Jump-1 drive" is problematic. The way the
Traveller rules developed, microjumps only came later, which implies that
one has to first have a true jump 1 capability that one can use at lesser
capacity, not that there are Jump 0.5 drives, Jump 0.75 drives, and so on
before Jump 1 drives. IIRC CT said that J1 space and J2 space and J3 space
etc. were completely separate "universes," and left no room for J0.5 space
and so on. In TNE I was modifying this so that they were all "contiguous"
with quantized "membranes" between them, but your penetration curve
determined how "deep" you dove into J-space, a shallow J1 or J2 curve, or
a deep J4, 5, 6 curve. But again, only take that to the "First Imperial
Everyone Laughs at Dave" bank. Or don't take it there, I'm now tangled in
my own metaphor.
And I'm pretty sure that those Microjumps still consumed a full J1 worth
of fuel, and definitely took the full 168 (+ or -) hours. It's in JTAS
someplace.
I'm with you that the narration would have to be tuned to bring it into
line with accepted Traveller pseudo-physics, because right now it's a
little 2300-ish and generic SF-ish, only broadly settling into Traveller
understandings.
But I will make one final observation in defense of the author. The only
reason that Traveller has quantized Jump ranges is because of the hex
grid. In the "real universe" stars are not placed at neat 3.26 light year
intervals. Damn! I have another set of "it's only a game" teethmarks on my
butt again.
> Thought so.
>
> Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
>
> "The Jump Drive
> (A.D. 2088-2098)
> The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It
> was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which
> allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the
> prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It
> was used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer
> planets and the cometary cloud."
>
> Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se,
> though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther
> through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The
> canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive
> inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed
> not only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to
> travel interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered
> they could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to
> Barnard's Star.
>
> "Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there seemed
> to be little practical application
> for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol, and
> the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into empty
> space was not possible. "
>
> The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical use
> for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But
> that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump
> navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the
> latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary
> cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have
> made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they
> discovered that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it
> would have been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the
> sound barrier.
>
> "The first step was to locate a âjump point,â a wandering planet or
> browndwarf star located at a convenient
> point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although
> locating them precisely was often
> quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient
> location. Here the American mission planners
> were lucky â a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1
> starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnardâs Star."
>
> Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which
> *did* need a gravity well to function.
>
> Later in the next section...
>
> "It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in
> high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering
> medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani
> engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain,
> not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the
> technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a
> Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their
> first easy access to the nearest stars."
>
> Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could
> not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1
> drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the
> Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and
> the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for
> centuries), but that is not how it is written.
I like that read as a way of harmonizing the text. Again, though, given
trial and error, you've got to get pretty close to an Oort cloud object to
be in its "grav well." Somewhere I think we said how many Gs that is
instead of simply "100 planetary diameters," or else now I'm confusing
2300 with Traveller.
> The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using the
> "feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you hit
> a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the
> mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically,
> they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a working
> model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!"
> moment
> on the mathematics.
>
> --
> Mario
>
> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thought so.
>>
>> Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
>>
>> "The Jump Drive
>> (A.D. 2088-2098)
>> The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It
>> was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which
>> allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the
>> prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It
>> was
>> used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer
>> planets
>> and the cometary cloud."
>>
>> Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se,
>> though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther
>> through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space.
>> The
>> canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive
>> inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed
>> not
>> only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to
>> travel
>> interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they
>> could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to
>> Barnard's
>> Star.
>>
>> "Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there
>> seemed
>> to be little practical application
>> for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol,
>> and
>> the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into
>> empty
>> space was not possible. "
>>
>> The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical
>> use
>> for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But
>> that
>> aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump
>> navigation
>> also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the latter
>> 21st
>> century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary cloud is
>> nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have made
>> that
>> next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered that
>> they
>> had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have been an
>> eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
>>
>> "The first step was to locate a âjump point,â a wandering planet or
>> browndwarf star located at a convenient
>> point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although
>> locating them precisely was often
>> quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient
>> location. Here the American mission planners
>> were lucky â a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that
>> jump-1
>> starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnardâs Star."
>>
>> Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which
>> *did* need a gravity well to function.
>>
>> Later in the next section...
>>
>> "It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in
>> high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering
>> medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani
>> engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this
>> bargain,
>> not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the
>> technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a
>> Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers
>> their
>> first easy access to the nearest stars."
>>
>> Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani
>> could
>> not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani
>> J-1
>> drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the
>> Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives
>> and
>> the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for
>> centuries), but that is not how it is written.
>>
>>
>
So the text would at least have to be rewritten to say, "when the Terrans
achieved a true Jump-1 navigational paradigm," as it's not the drive, it's
having the instruction book.
> Right. The problem is explicitly as much about navigation as Jump itself.
> The Terrans were still exploring the new technology while the Vilani had
> the experience & knew all the dead ends (of J1 and J2).
>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 11:28 Mario Butter
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using
>> the
>> "feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you
>> hit
>> a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the
>> mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically,
>> they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a
>> working
>> model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!"
>> moment
>> on the mathematics.
>>
>> --
>> Mario
>>
>> http://mario.silent-tower.org/
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, [Traveller_TNE] <
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thought so.
>>>
>>> Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
>>>
>>> "The Jump Drive
>>> (A.D. 2088-2098)
>>> The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It
>>> was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which
>>> allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the
>>> prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It
>>> was
>>> used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer
>>> planets
>>> and the cometary cloud."
>>>
>>> Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se,
>>> though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther
>>> through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space.
>>> The
>>> canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive
>>> inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed
>>> not
>>> only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to
>>> travel
>>> interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they
>>> could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to
>>> Barnard's
>>> Star.
>>>
>>> "Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there
>>> seemed to be little practical application
>>> for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol,
>>> and the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into
>>> empty space was not possible. "
>>>
>>> The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical
>>> use for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..."
>>> But
>>> that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump
>>> navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even
>>> the
>>> latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary
>>> cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would
>>> have
>>> made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they
>>> discovered
>>> that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would
>>> have
>>> been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound
>>> barrier.
>>>
>>> "The first step was to locate a âjump point,â a wandering planet or
>>> browndwarf star located at a convenient
>>> point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although
>>> locating them precisely was often
>>> quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient
>>> location. Here the American mission planners
>>> were lucky â a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that
>>> jump-1
>>> starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnardâs Star."
>>>
>>> Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which
>>> *did* need a gravity well to function.
>>>
>>> Later in the next section...
>>>
>>> "It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade
>>> in
>>> high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well
>>> offering
>>> medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani
>>> engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this
>>> bargain,
>>> not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the
>>> technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a
>>> Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers
>>> their
>>> first easy access to the nearest stars."
>>>
>>> Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani
>>> could
>>> not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani
>>> J-1
>>> drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the
>>> Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives
>>> and
>>> the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for
>>> centuries), but that is not how it is written.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
I can write a few paragraphs on the difficulties I encountered trying to place known stars into the context of the hex grid subsectors that surround Terra, believe me...in fact, see attached.
As far as your word on the subject of jump drives goes, for the purposes of this list, it has shall we say a bit more weight than most.
To me the passages were all very clear and very self consistent. The Terrans had an inefficient Jump drive that used a lot of fuel and had limited range. A prototype is mentioned and then later a 'true' Jump 1 drive which implies a physical improvement as opposed to a navigational or mathematical improvement only. I.e. their math may have been better which led to the improved drive but a physical improvement from the prototype system was required. Read the last paragraph in the 'Jump Drive' section on page 191 for a description of a Jump-0 drive.
By empty space I think that the inference is that within some radius of Sol the gravity well was sufficient to make a jump. Remember that the Interstellar Wars setting was strongly based on the game Imperium which did not allow deep space jumps. So the canon in the book had to follow that bit and prohibit deep space jumps until later tech. I figure that at a higher tech level you develop the math to do deep space jumps without a body as a jump point and that one can retroactively apply that to all types of Jumps. Check out the side bar on page 171 of IW for a good description of deep space jumps.
Actually the Terran J1 drive was still a fuel hog. Look at page 191 again in the fourth paragraph under'Fuel Tanks' where it talks specifically about the double fuel usage on early Terran J1 drives. The Terran reverse engineering of the Vilani J1 drive is what gave the Terrans better fuel efficiency.
Matt
---In , <master.uxi@...> wrote :
Right. The problem is explicitly as much about navigation as Jump itself. The Terrans were still exploring the new technology while the Vilani had the experience & knew all the dead ends (of J1 and J2).
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 11:28 Mario Butter mario.butter@... mario.butter@... [Traveller_TNE] < > wrote:
The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using the "feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you hit a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically, they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a working model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!" moment on the mathematics.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, wildcat_hal@... wildcat_hal@... [Traveller_TNE] < > wrote:
Thought so.
Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
"The Jump Drive
(A.D. 2088-2098)
The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It was used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer planets and the cometary cloud."
Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se, though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed not only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to travel interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to Barnard's Star.
"Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there seemed to be little practical application
for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol, and the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into empty space was not possible. "
The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical use for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
"The first step was to locate a “jump point,” a wandering planet or browndwarf star located at a convenient
point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although locating them precisely was often
quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient location. Here the American mission planners
were lucky – a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1 starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnard’s Star."
Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which *did* need a gravity well to function.
Later in the next section...
"It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain, not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their first easy access to the nearest stars."
Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1 drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for centuries), but that is not how it is written.