To me the passages were all very clear and very self consistent. The Terrans had an inefficient Jump drive that used a lot of fuel and had limited range. A prototype is mentioned and then later a 'true' Jump 1 drive which implies a physical improvement as opposed to a navigational or mathematical improvement only. I.e. their math may have been better which led to the improved drive but a physical improvement from the prototype system was required. Read the last paragraph in the 'Jump Drive' section on page 191 for a description of a Jump-0 drive.
By empty space I think that the inference is that within some radius of Sol the gravity well was sufficient to make a jump. Remember that the Interstellar Wars setting was strongly based on the game Imperium which did not allow deep space jumps. So the canon in the book had to follow that bit and prohibit deep space jumps until later tech. I figure that at a higher tech level you develop the math to do deep space jumps without a body as a jump point and that one can retroactively apply that to all types of Jumps. Check out the side bar on page 171 of IW for a good description of deep space jumps.
Actually the Terran J1 drive was still a fuel hog. Look at page 191 again in the fourth paragraph under'Fuel Tanks' where it talks specifically about the double fuel usage on early Terran J1 drives. The Terran reverse engineering of the Vilani J1 drive is what gave the Terrans better fuel efficiency.
Matt
---In , <master.uxi@...> wrote :
Right. The problem is explicitly as much about navigation as Jump itself. The Terrans were still exploring the new technology while the Vilani had the experience & knew all the dead ends (of J1 and J2).
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 11:28 Mario Butter mario.butter@... mario.butter@... [Traveller_TNE] < > wrote:
The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using the "feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you hit a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically, they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a working model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!" moment on the mathematics.
-- Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/ http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, wildcat_hal@... wildcat_hal@... [Traveller_TNE] < > wrote:
Thought so.
Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
"The Jump Drive
(A.D. 2088-2098)
The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It was used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer planets and the cometary cloud."
Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se, though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed not only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to travel interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to Barnard's Star.
"Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there seemed to be little practical application
for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol, and the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into empty space was not possible. "
The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical use for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
"The first step was to locate a “jump point,” a wandering planet or browndwarf star located at a convenient
point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although locating them precisely was often
quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient location. Here the American mission planners
were lucky – a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1 starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnard’s Star."
Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which *did* need a gravity well to function.
Later in the next section...
"It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain, not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their first easy access to the nearest stars."
Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1 drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for centuries), but that is not how it is written.
By empty space I think that the inference is that within some radius of Sol the gravity well was sufficient to make a jump. Remember that the Interstellar Wars setting was strongly based on the game Imperium which did not allow deep space jumps. So the canon in the book had to follow that bit and prohibit deep space jumps until later tech. I figure that at a higher tech level you develop the math to do deep space jumps without a body as a jump point and that one can retroactively apply that to all types of Jumps. Check out the side bar on page 171 of IW for a good description of deep space jumps.
Actually the Terran J1 drive was still a fuel hog. Look at page 191 again in the fourth paragraph under'Fuel Tanks' where it talks specifically about the double fuel usage on early Terran J1 drives. The Terran reverse engineering of the Vilani J1 drive is what gave the Terrans better fuel efficiency.
Matt
---In , <master.uxi@...> wrote :
Right. The problem is explicitly as much about navigation as Jump itself. The Terrans were still exploring the new technology while the Vilani had the experience & knew all the dead ends (of J1 and J2).
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015, 11:28 Mario Butter mario.butter@... mario.butter@... [Traveller_TNE] < > wrote:
The way I always read that is that the Terrans were, in essence, using the "feature" of a jump drive precipitating you out of jump space when you hit a gravity well as their "braking system". They didn't understand the mathematics well enough to calculate a jump into empty space. Basically, they were playing bumper cars with the jump drive. Once they got a working model of a jump drive that worked properly, someone had an "ah-hah!" moment on the mathematics.
-- Mario
http://mario.silent-tower.org/ http://mario.silent-tower.org/
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:45 PM, wildcat_hal@... wildcat_hal@... [Traveller_TNE] < > wrote:
Thought so.
Here then is some highlights from the troublesome section...
"The Jump Drive
(A.D. 2088-2098)
The UNSCA research station on Ceres had one more miracle to produce. It was at that station that Terrans first developed the jump drive, which allowed for accessible interstellar travel, in 2088. At first, the prototype jump drive was extremely fuel hungry and limited in range. It was used only within Sol system, as a fast means of reaching the outer planets and the cometary cloud."
Jump drives are jump drives. Fuel efficiency is not an issue per se, though higher capacity drives require more fuel to throw you farther through hyperspace to emerge a farther distance away in normal space. The canon explanation was always that the Terrans were *using* jump drive inefficiently, not realizing at first that their new technology allowed not only faster travel times to the outer system, but could be used to travel interstellar distances. With usage over time they soon discovered they could leap further and further away until the Americans jumped to Barnard's Star.
"Even after the UNSCA produced a true jump-1 drive (in 2092), there seemed to be little practical application
for the technology. No other star systems were within a parsec of Sol, and the mathematics of jump navigation seemed to imply that a jump into empty space was not possible. "
The text essentially contradicts itself, having just given a practical use for the new drive "a fast means of reaching the outer planets..." But that aside, the handwave employed regarding the mathematics of jump navigation also doesn't work. Americans being well...Americans, even the latter 21st century, they would have pushed the envelope. The cometary cloud is nearing the edge of the Sun's gravity well. Someone would have made that next leap outside the Sun's gravity well and when they discovered that they had no problem returning to the last jump point, it would have been an eureka moment equivalent to Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier.
"The first step was to locate a “jump point,” a wandering planet or browndwarf star located at a convenient
point in interstellar space. Such bodies were known to exist, although locating them precisely was often
quite difficult, and it was unlikely for one to be in a convenient location. Here the American mission planners
were lucky – a candidate rogue planet was found, located so that jump-1 starships could reach it from both Sol and Barnard’s Star."
Here they treating jump drive like Traveller: 2300's stutterwarp, which *did* need a gravity well to function.
Later in the next section...
"It was at Barnard that the two societies began an enthusiastic trade in high-technology goods. Terran entrepreneurs did especially well offering medical and biotechnological goods in exchange for examples of Vilani engineering. The Vilani felt that they got the better end of this bargain, not realizing how quickly Terran scientists would reverse-engineer the technology they received. One critical item developed (by 2108) was a Terran version of the Vilani jump-1 drive, allowing Terran explorers their first easy access to the nearest stars."
Jump drive is jump drive and J-1 drives are J-1 drives. The Vilani could not have "better" J-1 drives. At best *for story purposes* the Vilani J-1 drives might be more reliable (which would make sense given that the Terrans were essentially running around on 1st generation jump drives and the Vilani were using J-1 drives that had been made the same way for centuries), but that is not how it is written.