Thread: Re: EW bits and Longbow

7 posts.

Based on Uxi's msg:

By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a conversation
with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to remember why
the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more visible,
and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant moment"
instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and wanted
to drop this out there.

As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes the
permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies are
not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can be
separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted to
Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.

Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.

1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand, because
they are not triggered by events in N-space.

2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been timed
to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book, factually that
would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the math
worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet back,"
but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the most
recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts remained
behind along the explored path. Where these were established on Ancients
sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point those digs
could have found or triggered something which would cause Psi-space
activity.

Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its borders down
the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on the
original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way than
start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off the
top of the map.

The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way outside its
borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS article
discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM. This was
to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more recently
leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with the
testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number of
high-level Zho nobles which backfired.

Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and how the
main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal strength and
creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes within the
baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not only
would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied and pass
it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization), but the
same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's processor time
to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy from the
government for turning in properly recorded data as they went about their
business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location stamp
it for synchronization. This would probably require installation at a
Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
think about Virus infection."

However, the problem with all of this is that when you take seriously the
ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number of
locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing algorithms
they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around them
without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine the
classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted, that
info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when tracking
those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the surface
of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't arrive
there for years.

And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues with how
one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one of
the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing VLBI
baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there really
so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.

> I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let psions
communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would only
be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, <> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm playing out
>> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't matter. Silly
>> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
>> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a rejoinder yet.
>> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and little
net
>> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand years
>> later.
>> >
>> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by leaving
behind
>> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery & development are
>> the
>> > only change.
>> >
>> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on the
thingamajig
>> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide into
>> parallel
>> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and eye
>> patch
>> > (or
>> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's warrior
servant
>> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters & insist on
calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
>> trivia
>> > in
>> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
>> >
>> >
>> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, <> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you from
>> blowing
>> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon, destroying
>> all
>> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
>> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all things, a
>> >> time
>> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis, in
which
>> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
>> artifacts
>> >> from
>> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They do so
by
>> >> only
>> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often at the
>> last
>> >> second of their known existence.
>> >>
>> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
scenarios.
>> >>
>> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would prevent
>> the
>> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time Police have
>> to
>> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
>> >>
>> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline chips to
>> prevent
>> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from ever
>> crashing
>> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would have
won,
>> >> and
>> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go back and
prevent
>> >> that prevention from happening.
>> >>
>> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
>> "corrections&quot;
>> >> to
>> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
>> eventually
>> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach was the
>> last
>> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical conclusion.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>

Ah yeah think I still have a partial reply I never got to.

I was only partially kidding when I said I was culling your posts and
emails into a "Dave Source book."

I do think we could perhaps aim a bit higher and put this in a sort of
penultimate web based TNE resource "done right" without the burdens of
budgets or deadlines (beyond squeezing it out of your copious free time, of
course in between Battleship Craft sorties)...

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Mar 26, 2014 7:52 PM, <> wrote:

>
>
> Based on Uxi's msg:
>
> By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a conversation
> with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to remember why
> the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more visible,
> and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant moment"
> instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and wanted
> to drop this out there.
>
> As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes the
> permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
> effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
> immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies are
> not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can be
> separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted to
> Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.
>
> Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.
>
> 1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand, because
> they are not triggered by events in N-space.
>
> 2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
> Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been timed
> to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book, factually that
> would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the math
> worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
> Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
> expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
> expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet back,"
> but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the most
> recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts remained
> behind along the explored path. Where these were established on Ancients
> sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point those digs
> could have found or triggered something which would cause Psi-space
> activity.
>
> Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its borders down
> the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on the
> original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way than
> start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off the
> top of the map.
>
> The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
> unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way outside its
> borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS article
> discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM. This was
> to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
> communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more recently
> leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with the
> testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number of
> high-level Zho nobles which backfired.
>
> Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and how the
> main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal strength and
> creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes within the
> baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not only
> would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied and pass
> it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization), but the
> same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's processor time
> to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy from the
> government for turning in properly recorded data as they went about their
> business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
> subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
> calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location stamp
> it for synchronization. This would probably require installation at a
> Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
> Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
> collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
> think about Virus infection."
>
> However, the problem with all of this is that when you take seriously the
> ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number of
> locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing algorithms
> they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around them
> without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
> borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine the
> classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
> Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted, that
> info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when tracking
> those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
> time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the surface
> of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't arrive
> there for years.
>
> And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues with how
> one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
> represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one of
> the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing VLBI
> baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there really
> so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.
>
> > I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let psions
> communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would only
> be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
> >
> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> > On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, <> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm playing
> out
> >> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't matter.
> Silly
> >> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
> >> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a rejoinder yet.
> >> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and little
> net
> >> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand years
> >> later.
> >> >
> >> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by leaving
> behind
> >> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery & development are
> >> the
> >> > only change.
> >> >
> >> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on the
> thingamajig
> >> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide into
> >> parallel
> >> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and eye
> >> patch
> >> > (or
> >> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's warrior
> servant
> >> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters & insist on
> calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
> >> trivia
> >> > in
> >> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, <> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you from
> >> blowing
> >> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon, destroying
> >> all
> >> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
> >> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all things, a
> >> >> time
> >> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis, in
> which
> >> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
> >> artifacts
> >> >> from
> >> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They do so
> by
> >> >> only
> >> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often at the
> >> last
> >> >> second of their known existence.
> >> >>
> >> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
> scenarios.
> >> >>
> >> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would prevent
> >> the
> >> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time Police have
> >> to
> >> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
> >> >>
> >> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline chips to
> >> prevent
> >> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from ever
> >> crashing
> >> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would have
> won,
> >> >> and
> >> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go back and
> prevent
> >> >> that prevention from happening.
> >> >>
> >> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
> >> "corrections&quot;
> >> >> to
> >> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
> >> eventually
> >> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach was the
> >> last
> >> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical conclusion.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >
>
>
>
Might not be a terrible idea. Although it might be fun to make it a PDF
that we could give to people individually only after they "say something
nice about TNE." Then put those responses with their names on a website
and see what happens.

There are already lurkers on this list culling all this stuff and
assembling it anyway. Fortunately I'm told this list has a rule that says
you can't quote anything from this list without the permission of the
author/poster.

Dave
"Publishing or Re-Posting my Traveller_TNE posts requires my written
permission."

> Ah yeah think I still have a partial reply I never got to.
>
> I was only partially kidding when I said I was culling your posts and
emails into a "Dave Source book."
>
> I do think we could perhaps aim a bit higher and put this in a sort of
penultimate web based TNE resource "done right" without the burdens of
budgets or deadlines (beyond squeezing it out of your copious free time,
of
> course in between Battleship Craft sorties)...
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Mar 26, 2014 7:52 PM, <> wrote:
>
>> Based on Uxi's msg:
>> By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a
>> conversation
>> with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to remember
why
>> the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more visible,
and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant moment"
instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and wanted
>> to drop this out there.
>> As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes the
permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
>> effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies are
not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can be
separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted to
Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.
Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.
>> 1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand, because
they are not triggered by events in N-space.
>> 2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been timed
>> to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book, factually
that
>> would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the math
worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet back,"
>> but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the most
recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts
remained
>> behind along the explored path. Where these were established on
Ancients
>> sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point those
digs
>> could have found or triggered something which would cause Psi-space
activity.
>> Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its borders
down
>> the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on the
original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way than
start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off the
>> top of the map.
>> The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way outside its
>> borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS
article
>> discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM. This
was
>> to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more
recently
>> leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with the
testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number of
high-level Zho nobles which backfired.
>> Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and how the
main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal strength and
>> creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes within the
baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not only
>> would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied and
pass
>> it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization), but
the
>> same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's processor
time
>> to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy from
the
>> government for turning in properly recorded data as they went about
their
>> business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location stamp
>> it for synchronization. This would probably require installation at a
Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
think about Virus infection."
>> However, the problem with all of this is that when you take seriously
the
>> ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number of
locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing
algorithms
>> they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around them
without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine the
classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted, that
>> info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when tracking
those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the
surface
>> of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't arrive
there for years.
>> And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues with
how
>> one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one of
>> the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing VLBI
baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there really
>> so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.
>> > I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let
>> psions
>> communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would only
be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
>> >
>> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> > On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, <> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm
>> playing
>> out
>> >> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't matter.
>> Silly
>> >> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
>> >> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a rejoinder
>> yet.
>> >> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and little
>> net
>> >> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand years
>> >> later.
>> >> >
>> >> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by leaving
>> behind
>> >> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery & development
>> are
>> >> the
>> >> > only change.
>> >> >
>> >> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on the
>> thingamajig
>> >> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide into
>> >> parallel
>> >> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and eye
>> >> patch
>> >> > (or
>> >> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's warrior
>> servant
>> >> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters & insist
>> on
>> calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
>> >> trivia
>> >> > in
>> >> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, <> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you from
>> >> blowing
>> >> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon,
>> destroying
>> >> all
>> >> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
>> >> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all
things,
>> a
>> >> >> time
>> >> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis,
>> in
>> which
>> >> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
>> >> artifacts
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They do
so
>> by
>> >> >> only
>> >> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often at
the
>> >> last
>> >> >> second of their known existence.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
>> scenarios.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would
>> prevent
>> >> the
>> >> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time Police
>> have
>> >> to
>> >> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline chips to
>> >> prevent
>> >> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from ever
>> >> crashing
>> >> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would have
>> won,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go back and
>> prevent
>> >> >> that prevention from happening.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
>> >> "corrections&quot;
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
>> >> eventually
>> >> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach was the
>> >> last
>> >> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical conclusion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>



Dear All,

I'd be surprised if any of the information created by individuals on
this list was protected by copyright, even if individuals insist that
it is. It is far more likely that these derivative works are well and
truly in the public domain.

As the definition of copyright and public domain varies from country
to country, probably any derivative works done by individuals here are
public works because they are indeed viewed by the public and
have not been copyright.

Perhaps someone can enlighten us further about this?

 

As for saying something good about TNE that is easy.

Thanks to you, Dave,  for your work in TNE, that remains (IMHO) by
far, the best version of Traveller. It provides a gritty background
and the depth, which allows me to imagine that which is actually going
on in distant places and times particularly aboard spaceships. For
this I thank you.

I am tempted to launch into a scathing comparison of T5 with TNE but
I will resist the urge...

Thanks,  
Craige Cook

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Cc:
Sent:Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:44:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:Re: [Traveller_TNE] EW bits and Longbow

 

Might not be a terrible idea. Although it might be fun to make it a
PDF
that we could give to people individually only after they "say
something
nice about TNE." Then put those responses with their names on a
website
and see what happens.

There are already lurkers on this list culling all this stuff and
assembling it anyway. Fortunately I'm told this list has a rule that
says
you can't quote anything from this list without the permission of the
author/poster.

Dave
"Publishing or Re-Posting my Traveller_TNE posts requires my written
permission."

> Ah yeah think I still have a partial reply I never got to.
>
> I was only partially kidding when I said I was culling your posts
and
emails into a "Dave Source book."
>
> I do think we could perhaps aim a bit higher and put this in a sort
of
penultimate web based TNE resource "done right" without the burdens
of
budgets or deadlines (beyond squeezing it out of your copious free
time,
of
> course in between Battleship Craft sorties)...
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Mar 26, 2014 7:52 PM, wrote:
>
>> Based on Uxi's msg:
>> By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a
>> conversation
>> with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to
remember
why
>> the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more
visible,
and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant
moment"
instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and
wanted
>> to drop this out there.
>> As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes
the
permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
>> effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies
are
not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can
be
separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted
to
Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.
Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.
>> 1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand,
because
they are not triggered by events in N-space.
>> 2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been
timed
>> to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book,
factually
that
>> would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the
math
worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet
back,"
>> but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the
most
recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts
remained
>> behind along the explored path. Where these were established on
Ancients
>> sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point
those
digs
>> could have found or triggered something which would cause
Psi-space
activity.
>> Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its
borders
down
>> the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on
the
original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way
than
start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off
the
>> top of the map.
>> The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way
outside its
>> borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS
article
>> discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM.
This
was
>> to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more
recently
>> leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with
the
testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number
of
high-level Zho nobles which backfired.
>> Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and
how the
main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal
strength and
>> creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes
within the
baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not
only
>> would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied
and
pass
>> it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization),
but
the
>> same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's
processor
time
>> to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy
from
the
>> government for turning in properly recorded data as they went
about
their
>> business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location
stamp
>> it for synchronization. This would probably require installation
at a
Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
think about Virus infection."
>> However, the problem with all of this is that when you take
seriously
the
>> ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number
of
locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing
algorithms
>> they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around
them
without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine
the
classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted,
that
>> info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when
tracking
those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the
surface
>> of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't
arrive
there for years.
>> And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues
with
how
>> one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one
of
>> the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing
VLBI
baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there
really
>> so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.
>> > I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let
>> psions
>> communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would
only
be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
>> >
>> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> > On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm
>> playing
>> out
>> >> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't
matter.
>> Silly
>> >> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
>> >> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a
rejoinder
>> yet.
>> >> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and
little
>> net
>> >> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand
years
>> >> later.
>> >> >
>> >> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by
leaving
>> behind
>> >> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery &
development
>> are
>> >> the
>> >> > only change.
>> >> >
>> >> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on
the
>> thingamajig
>> >> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide
into
>> >> parallel
>> >> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and
eye
>> >> patch
>> >> > (or
>> >> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's
warrior
>> servant
>> >> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters &
insist
>> on
>> calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
>> >> trivia
>> >> > in
>> >> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you
from
>> >> blowing
>> >> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon,
>> destroying
>> >> all
>> >> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
>> >> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all
things,
>> a
>> >> >> time
>> >> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie
Willis,
>> in
>> which
>> >> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
>> >> artifacts
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They
do
so
>> by
>> >> >> only
>> >> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often
at
the
>> >> last
>> >> >> second of their known existence.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
>> scenarios
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would
>> prevent
>> >> the
>> >> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time
Police
>> have
>> >> to
>> >> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline
chips to
>> >> prevent
>> >> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from
ever
>> >> crashing
>> >> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would
have
>> won,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go
back and
>> prevent
>> >> >> that prevention from happening
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
>> >> "corrections"
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
>> >> eventually
>> >> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach
was the
>> >> last
>> >> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical
conclusion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>

> I am tempted to launch into a scathing comparison of T5 with TNE but
> I will resist the urge...

Sound thinking. Just cuz people were mean to us doesn't mean we have to
follow them onto the low road.

> Dear All,
>
> I'd be surprised if any of the information created by individuals on
> this list was protected by copyright, even if individuals insist that
> it is. It is far more likely that these derivative works are well and
> truly in the public domain.
>
> As the definition of copyright and public domain varies from country
> to country, probably any derivative works done by individuals here are
> public works because they are indeed viewed by the public and
> have not been copyright.
>
> Perhaps someone can enlighten us further about this?
>
>  
>
> As for saying something good about TNE that is easy.
>
> Thanks to you, Dave,  for your work in TNE, that remains (IMHO) by
> far, the best version of Traveller. It provides a gritty background
> and the depth, which allows me to imagine that which is actually going
> on in distant places and times particularly aboard spaceships. For
> this I thank you.
>
> I am tempted to launch into a scathing comparison of T5 with TNE but
> I will resist the urge...
>
> Thanks,  
> Craige Cook
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent:Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:44:59 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject:Re: [Traveller_TNE] EW bits and Longbow
>
>  
>
> Might not be a terrible idea. Although it might be fun to make it a
> PDF
> that we could give to people individually only after they "say
> something
> nice about TNE." Then put those responses with their names on a
> website
> and see what happens.
>
> There are already lurkers on this list culling all this stuff and
> assembling it anyway. Fortunately I'm told this list has a rule that
> says
> you can't quote anything from this list without the permission of the
> author/poster.
>
> Dave
> "Publishing or Re-Posting my Traveller_TNE posts requires my written
> permission."
>
> > Ah yeah think I still have a partial reply I never got to.
> >
> > I was only partially kidding when I said I was culling your posts
> and
> emails into a "Dave Source book."
> >
> > I do think we could perhaps aim a bit higher and put this in a sort
> of
> penultimate web based TNE resource "done right" without the burdens
> of
> budgets or deadlines (beyond squeezing it out of your copious free
> time,
> of
> > course in between Battleship Craft sorties)...
> >
> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> > On Mar 26, 2014 7:52 PM, wrote:
> >
> >> Based on Uxi's msg:
> >> By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a
> >> conversation
> >> with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to
> remember
> why
> >> the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more
> visible,
> and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant
> moment"
> instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and
> wanted
> >> to drop this out there.
> >> As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes
> the
> permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
> >> effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
> immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies
> are
> not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can
> be
> separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted
> to
> Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.
> Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.
> >> 1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand,
> because
> they are not triggered by events in N-space.
> >> 2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
> Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been
> timed
> >> to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book,
> factually
> that
> >> would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the
> math
> worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
> Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
> expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
> expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet
> back,"
> >> but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the
> most
> recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts
> remained
> >> behind along the explored path. Where these were established on
> Ancients
> >> sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point
> those
> digs
> >> could have found or triggered something which would cause
> Psi-space
> activity.
> >> Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its
> borders
> down
> >> the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on
> the
> original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way
> than
> start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off
> the
> >> top of the map.
> >> The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
> unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way
> outside its
> >> borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS
> article
> >> discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM.
> This
> was
> >> to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
> communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more
> recently
> >> leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with
> the
> testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number
> of
> high-level Zho nobles which backfired.
> >> Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and
> how the
> main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal
> strength and
> >> creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes
> within the
> baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not
> only
> >> would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied
> and
> pass
> >> it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization),
> but
> the
> >> same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's
> processor
> time
> >> to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy
> from
> the
> >> government for turning in properly recorded data as they went
> about
> their
> >> business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
> subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
> calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location
> stamp
> >> it for synchronization. This would probably require installation
> at a
> Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
> Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
> collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
> think about Virus infection."
> >> However, the problem with all of this is that when you take
> seriously
> the
> >> ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number
> of
> locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing
> algorithms
> >> they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around
> them
> without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
> borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine
> the
> classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
> Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted,
> that
> >> info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when
> tracking
> those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
> time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the
> surface
> >> of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't
> arrive
> there for years.
> >> And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues
> with
> how
> >> one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
> represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one
> of
> >> the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing
> VLBI
> baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there
> really
> >> so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.
> >> > I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let
> >> psions
> >> communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would
> only
> be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
> >> >
> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm
> >> playing
> >> out
> >> >> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't
> matter.
> >> Silly
> >> >> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
> >> >> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a
> rejoinder
> >> yet.
> >> >> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and
> little
> >> net
> >> >> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand
> years
> >> >> later.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by
> leaving
> >> behind
> >> >> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery &
> development
> >> are
> >> >> the
> >> >> > only change.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on
> the
> >> thingamajig
> >> >> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide
> into
> >> >> parallel
> >> >> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and
> eye
> >> >> patch
> >> >> > (or
> >> >> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's
> warrior
> >> servant
> >> >> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters &
> insist
> >> on
> >> calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
> >> >> trivia
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you
> from
> >> >> blowing
> >> >> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon,
> >> destroying
> >> >> all
> >> >> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
> >> >> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all
> things,
> >> a
> >> >> >> time
> >> >> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie
> Willis,
> >> in
> >> which
> >> >> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
> >> >> artifacts
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They
> do
> so
> >> by
> >> >> >> only
> >> >> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often
> at
> the
> >> >> last
> >> >> >> second of their known existence.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
> >> scenarios
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would
> >> prevent
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time
> Police
> >> have
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline
> chips to
> >> >> prevent
> >> >> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from
> ever
> >> >> crashing
> >> >> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would
> have
> >> won,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go
> back and
> >> prevent
> >> >> >> that prevention from happening
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
> >> >> "corrections"
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
> >> >> eventually
> >> >> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach
> was the
> >> >> last
> >> >> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical
> conclusion.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >
>
>
>
From Uxi's:

> The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their own
> norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct (the
> "supercharged&quot;) or even understand (the "possessed&quot;).
>
> At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain their
> own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their forebears &
> would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the even
> nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence

I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
"race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.

> Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> originally set to a conservative pace.

Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core" that
made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably is
not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which Yaskoydray
was also subject, and which therefore interested him.

> The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from the
> Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.

As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
resupply/commo missions come through.

- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Mar 30, 2014 1:59 PM, <> wrote:

>
> > The Zho version of "going native" would include going beyond their own
> > norms if not beyond what the Thought Police could be able to correct
(the
> > "supercharged&quot;) or even understand (the "possessed&quot;).
> >
> > At its simplest though, yeah. These descendents could easily obtain
their
> > own agenda which diverges from that of the Consulate and their
forebears &
> > would have every inclination to resist the Thought Police or the even
> > nominal subservience and a classic struggle for independence
>
> I like that because it gets at the semi-artificial/arbitrary notion of
> "race" as less physical/genetic than behavioral, and that behavioral
> differences can cause prejudices even worse than physical differences.

And yet could reinforce them at the same time if it's only certain subset
of Zhos. Knowing that those who go beyond a certain point are... affected
somehow, they might be inclined to send those other than their best &
brightest, who would be "manning the walls," as it were. Until the walls
bypass them. Thus would have probably happened a couple times before they
figured out that the wave was moving towards the Consulate and one could
almost feel the collective face palm and hindsight and/or guilt towards how
they might have treated those who would have been subject to
exile/quarantine/invasive examination by the Thought Police even when not
noticeably affected just because they passed certain moving goalposts.

I could see no Dlolprikls or being risked or only Dleqiats or Qiknavran (or
subsets of) for ex. They were supposedly strictly meritocrious but humans
have a way for forming cliques regardless... even when otherwise know
better, they could be falsely premised on subjective qualities.

> > Indeed. The goal was always to get to the Core eventually, though
> > originally set to a conservative pace.
>
> Or not so much the Core per se, but whatever it is about "The Core" that
> made the original Ancient device point them that way, which presumably is
> not something invented by Yaskoydray, but something to which Yaskoydray
> was also subject, and which therefore interested him.

Indeed. Possibly hinting at whatever the Children & Grandchildren were
doing that caused Grandfather to react so extremely, as well (always have
visions of them interfering in either abonimable ways... or perhaps
refusing to abide the abominable things Yaskoydray was doing. The entire
Ancient's Final War lends itself to some grand implications... Though could
easily be as trivial as that which split the Third Imperium, if not seen as
bizarrely so by human standards, though perhaps not to Droyne).

> > The CriZhos would be more intimately concerned the farther they were
> > Coreward and would also have increasingly divergent interests from the
> > Consulate, starting with their own prosperity & security.
>
> As well as prejudice/judgement they might receive when the "Real Zho"
> resupply/commo missions come through.

Definitely. The unknown naturally lends itself to uncertainty, if not
suspicion (and thence paranoia) and even nominally rational people using a
scientific method can come to mistaken conclusions based on faulty premises
& make placebo responses.

Especially when things go south, one can Zhos who wouldn't exactly be
eager to maje resupply runs into affected areas since they may not be
allowed back or would be under suspicion if not scrutiny even if they were
cleared by the authorities.