> I am tempted to launch into a scathing comparison of T5 with TNE but
> I will resist the urge...
Sound thinking. Just cuz people were mean to us doesn't mean we have to
follow them onto the low road.
> Dear All,
>
> I'd be surprised if any of the information created by individuals on
> this list was protected by copyright, even if individuals insist that
> it is. It is far more likely that these derivative works are well and
> truly in the public domain.
>
> As the definition of copyright and public domain varies from country
> to country, probably any derivative works done by individuals here are
> public works because they are indeed viewed by the public and
> have not been copyright.
>
> Perhaps someone can enlighten us further about this?
>
> Â
>
> As for saying something good about TNE that is easy.
>
> Thanks to you, Dave, Â for your work in TNE, that remains (IMHO) by
> far, the best version of Traveller. It provides a gritty background
> and the depth, which allows me to imagine that which is actually going
> on in distant places and times particularly aboard spaceships. For
> this I thank you.
>
> I am tempted to launch into a scathing comparison of T5 with TNE but
> I will resist the urge...
>
> Thanks, Â
> Craige Cook
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent:Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:44:59 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject:Re: [Traveller_TNE] EW bits and Longbow
>
> Â
>
> Might not be a terrible idea. Although it might be fun to make it a
> PDF
> that we could give to people individually only after they "say
> something
> nice about TNE." Then put those responses with their names on a
> website
> and see what happens.
>
> There are already lurkers on this list culling all this stuff and
> assembling it anyway. Fortunately I'm told this list has a rule that
> says
> you can't quote anything from this list without the permission of the
> author/poster.
>
> Dave
> "Publishing or Re-Posting my Traveller_TNE posts requires my written
> permission."
>
> > Ah yeah think I still have a partial reply I never got to.
> >
> > I was only partially kidding when I said I was culling your posts
> and
> emails into a "Dave Source book."
> >
> > I do think we could perhaps aim a bit higher and put this in a sort
> of
> penultimate web based TNE resource "done right" without the burdens
> of
> budgets or deadlines (beyond squeezing it out of your copious free
> time,
> of
> > course in between Battleship Craft sorties)...
> >
> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> > On Mar 26, 2014 7:52 PM, wrote:
> >
> >> Based on Uxi's msg:
> >> By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a
> >> conversation
> >> with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to
> remember
> why
> >> the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more
> visible,
> and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant
> moment"
> instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and
> wanted
> >> to drop this out there.
> >> As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes
> the
> permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
> >> effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
> immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies
> are
> not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can
> be
> separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted
> to
> Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.
> Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.
> >> 1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand,
> because
> they are not triggered by events in N-space.
> >> 2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
> Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been
> timed
> >> to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book,
> factually
> that
> >> would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the
> math
> worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
> Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
> expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
> expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet
> back,"
> >> but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the
> most
> recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts
> remained
> >> behind along the explored path. Where these were established on
> Ancients
> >> sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point
> those
> digs
> >> could have found or triggered something which would cause
> Psi-space
> activity.
> >> Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its
> borders
> down
> >> the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on
> the
> original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way
> than
> start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off
> the
> >> top of the map.
> >> The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
> unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way
> outside its
> >> borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS
> article
> >> discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM.
> This
> was
> >> to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
> communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more
> recently
> >> leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with
> the
> testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number
> of
> high-level Zho nobles which backfired.
> >> Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and
> how the
> main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal
> strength and
> >> creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes
> within the
> baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not
> only
> >> would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied
> and
> pass
> >> it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization),
> but
> the
> >> same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's
> processor
> time
> >> to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy
> from
> the
> >> government for turning in properly recorded data as they went
> about
> their
> >> business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
> subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
> calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location
> stamp
> >> it for synchronization. This would probably require installation
> at a
> Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
> Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
> collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
> think about Virus infection."
> >> However, the problem with all of this is that when you take
> seriously
> the
> >> ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number
> of
> locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing
> algorithms
> >> they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around
> them
> without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
> borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine
> the
> classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
> Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted,
> that
> >> info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when
> tracking
> those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
> time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the
> surface
> >> of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't
> arrive
> there for years.
> >> And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues
> with
> how
> >> one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
> represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one
> of
> >> the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing
> VLBI
> baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there
> really
> >> so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.
> >> > I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let
> >> psions
> >> communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would
> only
> be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
> >> >
> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm
> >> playing
> >> out
> >> >> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't
> matter.
> >> Silly
> >> >> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
> >> >> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a
> rejoinder
> >> yet.
> >> >> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and
> little
> >> net
> >> >> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand
> years
> >> >> later.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by
> leaving
> >> behind
> >> >> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery &
> development
> >> are
> >> >> the
> >> >> > only change.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on
> the
> >> thingamajig
> >> >> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide
> into
> >> >> parallel
> >> >> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and
> eye
> >> >> patch
> >> >> > (or
> >> >> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's
> warrior
> >> servant
> >> >> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters &
> insist
> >> on
> >> calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
> >> >> trivia
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you
> from
> >> >> blowing
> >> >> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon,
> >> destroying
> >> >> all
> >> >> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
> >> >> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all
> things,
> >> a
> >> >> >> time
> >> >> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie
> Willis,
> >> in
> >> which
> >> >> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
> >> >> artifacts
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They
> do
> so
> >> by
> >> >> >> only
> >> >> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often
> at
> the
> >> >> last
> >> >> >> second of their known existence.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
> >> scenarios
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would
> >> prevent
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time
> Police
> >> have
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline
> chips to
> >> >> prevent
> >> >> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from
> ever
> >> >> crashing
> >> >> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would
> have
> >> won,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go
> back and
> >> prevent
> >> >> >> that prevention from happening
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
> >> >> "corrections"
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
> >> >> eventually
> >> >> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach
> was the
> >> >> last
> >> >> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical
> conclusion.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >
>
>
>
> I will resist the urge...
Sound thinking. Just cuz people were mean to us doesn't mean we have to
follow them onto the low road.
> Dear All,
>
> I'd be surprised if any of the information created by individuals on
> this list was protected by copyright, even if individuals insist that
> it is. It is far more likely that these derivative works are well and
> truly in the public domain.
>
> As the definition of copyright and public domain varies from country
> to country, probably any derivative works done by individuals here are
> public works because they are indeed viewed by the public and
> have not been copyright.
>
> Perhaps someone can enlighten us further about this?
>
> Â
>
> As for saying something good about TNE that is easy.
>
> Thanks to you, Dave, Â for your work in TNE, that remains (IMHO) by
> far, the best version of Traveller. It provides a gritty background
> and the depth, which allows me to imagine that which is actually going
> on in distant places and times particularly aboard spaceships. For
> this I thank you.
>
> I am tempted to launch into a scathing comparison of T5 with TNE but
> I will resist the urge...
>
> Thanks, Â
> Craige Cook
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent:Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:44:59 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject:Re: [Traveller_TNE] EW bits and Longbow
>
> Â
>
> Might not be a terrible idea. Although it might be fun to make it a
> that we could give to people individually only after they "say
> something
> nice about TNE." Then put those responses with their names on a
> website
> and see what happens.
>
> There are already lurkers on this list culling all this stuff and
> assembling it anyway. Fortunately I'm told this list has a rule that
> says
> you can't quote anything from this list without the permission of the
> author/poster.
>
> Dave
> "Publishing or Re-Posting my Traveller_TNE posts requires my written
> permission."
>
> > Ah yeah think I still have a partial reply I never got to.
> >
> > I was only partially kidding when I said I was culling your posts
> and
> emails into a "Dave Source book."
> >
> > I do think we could perhaps aim a bit higher and put this in a sort
> of
> penultimate web based TNE resource "done right" without the burdens
> of
> budgets or deadlines (beyond squeezing it out of your copious free
> time,
> of
> > course in between Battleship Craft sorties)...
> >
> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> > On Mar 26, 2014 7:52 PM, wrote:
> >
> >> Based on Uxi's msg:
> >> By the way, Uxi reminded me. Re: Empress Wave, I was having a
> >> conversation
> >> with Uxi maybe a year ago about the EW, and I was trying to
> remember
> why
> >> the EW wasn't doing more damage and thereby making itself more
> visible,
> and why Strephon's vision of "her" was of a timeless "pregnant
> moment"
> instead of "biff, bam, zowie." In talking to Uxi I did remember and
> wanted
> >> to drop this out there.
> >> As recounted elsewhere, the EW is a physical effect that changes
> the
> permeability between N-space and Psi-space which allows some
> >> effects/energies to come in from psi-space. But it is not always
> immediately destructive. The reason for this is that those energies
> are
> not coming in at a constant rate, they are discrete events that can
> be
> separated by long periods of inactivity, and the picture transmitted
> to
> Strephon's mind was the "test pattern" during a period of inactivity.
> Periods of activity would be the result of a couple things.
> >> 1) Processes within psi-space itself that we don't understand,
> because
> they are not triggered by events in N-space.
> >> 2) Processes within N-space, mostly related to the Zhodani Core
> Expeditions. While it would have been nice if that could have been
> timed
> >> to precisely match dates recorded in the CT Zhodani book,
> factually
> that
> >> would have been unlikely, and just really good serendipity if the
> math
> worked out that way. The data points that we have are: distance from
> Imperial border to Galactic Core, departure times of Zhodani core
> expeditions, and closest approach to GC of each of those. Those
> expeditions were not "take a whole fleet out, bring the whole fleet
> back,"
> >> but successive pushing out of base camps from the far end of the
> most
> recent expedition. In between expeditions settlements or outposts
> remained
> >> behind along the explored path. Where these were established on
> Ancients
> >> sites, the "digs" would have continued over time. At any point
> those
> digs
> >> could have found or triggered something which would cause
> Psi-space
> activity.
> >> Why, logically, did not the Consulate permanently expand its
> borders
> down
> >> the CoreEx path? Probably because their boundaries were drawn on
> the
> original Known Space map and it was easier to leave them that way
> than
> start making all kinds of little red client state bubbles heading off
> the
> >> top of the map.
> >> The Zho did, obviously have experience behind the EW, much of it
> unspectacular, and when it was, the effects were contained way
> outside its
> >> borders. But one event did affect the Consulate as seen in a TNS
> article
> >> discussing battle damaged Zho ships, collected somewhere in SM.
> This
> was
> >> to ships operating in the CoreEx corridor, maintaining lines of
> communication to the outposts. And another bad one happened more
> recently
> >> leading to the Exodus. I believe this was going to have to do with
> the
> testing of Ancient artifacts with the involvement of a large number
> of
> high-level Zho nobles which backfired.
> >> Also, I was thinking about Longbow in the last couple weeks and
> how the
> main requirement was not total baseline length, it was signal
> strength and
> >> creation of multiple baseline segments: filling in the holes
> within the
> baseline to create the highest resolution picture. I thought that not
> only
> >> would IN ships routinely record data from the area being studied
> and
> pass
> >> it in (with precise time and location data for synchronization),
> but
> the
> >> same way that it was big a few years ago to share your PC's
> processor
> time
> >> to help SETI, privately-owned ships could pick up a small subsidy
> from
> the
> >> government for turning in properly recorded data as they went
> about
> their
> >> business. In order to record this properly and be eligible for the
> subsidies, you would have to have a certain quality of EMS sensor
> calibrated properly as well as a system that could time and location
> stamp
> >> it for synchronization. This would probably require installation
> at a
> Scout or Naval base. As I was thinking about TNE, Virus, and BSG's
> Nav-based Virus, I thought, "hey, this distributed Auxiliary VLBI
> collection system (DAVLBICS) might have been an interesting vector to
> think about Virus infection."
> >> However, the problem with all of this is that when you take
> seriously
> the
> >> ability of the Imperium to use its physical dimensions and number
> of
> locations to do VLBI, and the kind of advanced image processing
> algorithms
> >> they'll have then, they will pretty much know what is out around
> them
> without ever having to go there, and the idea of things beyond their
> borders being "unknown" is really not true. That tends to undermine
> the
> classic SF assumptions of frontiers and mysteries when you can track
> Zhodani CoreEx starships hundreds or thousands of pc away. Granted,
> that
> >> info is 3.26 years old per pc, so makes it of limited use when
> tracking
> those starships, but for planetary survey that's close enough to real
> time. If you were a colonist you could pull up a 3D image of the
> surface
> >> of a world and draw up a VR homestead on it, even if you won't
> arrive
> there for years.
> >> And the above paragraph accepts the notion that there are issues
> with
> how
> >> one interprets the 2D Traveller map compared to the 3D reality it
> represents. As a basic embedded abstraction in Traveller, that is one
> of
> >> the things we try not to talk about, but when you're computing
> VLBI
> baseline segments, the question is begged pretty quickly. Is there
> really
> >> so Z axis, or is there a small one that is washed out? Who knows.
> >> > I was thinking on your idea of Psionic echos in Jumpspace to let
> >> psions
> >> communicate with those long long dead, as well, > though it would
> only
> be apparent in certain extreme misjumps (or behind the Empress Wave).
> >> >
> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 2:10 PM, wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Yes, I enjoy that approach as well. History saying, "look, I'm
> >> playing
> >> out
> >> >> the way I play out. Individuals and details and events don't
> matter.
> >> Silly
> >> >> organic lifeforms. 'Cause and effect.' How droll."
> >> >> I like the Ithklur/Hiver reversal, just can't think of a
> rejoinder
> >> yet.
> >> >> > Or Cleon's little known rival Selcirep takes over Sylea and
> little
> >> net
> >> >> > change other than a bunch of names in old books a thousand
> years
> >> >> later.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Or different Terrans/Vilani whoever cause them later by
> leaving
> >> behind
> >> >> > their trash and the footnotes behind the discovery &
> development
> >> are
> >> >> the
> >> >> > only change.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lucky/unlucky PC discover by tinkering with the doowacky on
> the
> >> thingamajig
> >> >> > that unrefined Droyne in the Jump Drive cause them to Slide
> into
> >> >> parallel
> >> >> > universes where the main PC's double is seen with a beard and
> eye
> >> >> patch
> >> >> > (or
> >> >> > without if that's how he rolls)... Where the Ithklur's
> warrior
> >> servant
> >> >> > Hivers resist the domination of their emotionless masters &
> insist
> >> on
> >> calling Soccer "Football" and have a large repertoire of Hooligan
> >> >> trivia
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > between their warrior - brood larvae gestations.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
> >> >> > On Mar 26, 2014 12:09 PM, wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> However, there must be some kind of rules preventing you
> from
> >> >> blowing
> >> >> >> up worlds that become Capital, Hub, etc., killing Cleon,
> >> destroying
> >> >> all
> >> >> >> the Cymbeline chips... :-)
> >> >> >> > I gained an interesting perspective on this from, of all
> things,
> >> a
> >> >> >> time
> >> >> >> travel novel called "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie
> Willis,
> >> in
> >> which
> >> >> >> > a future time travelling society labors to save historical
> >> >> artifacts
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> > Earth's past without altering history in the process. They
> do
> so
> >> by
> >> >> >> only
> >> >> >> > grabbing things with have become "lost" to history, often
> at
> the
> >> >> last
> >> >> >> second of their known existence.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That gives me an idea for some amusing one-off time travel
> >> scenarios
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Some PCs in Mileu 0 are going to kill Cleon, but that would
> >> prevent
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> First Imperium from being established, so the Canon/Time
> Police
> >> have
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> come in and prevent the players from doing so.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Or time-travelling PCs decide to wipe out the Cymbeline
> chips to
> >> >> prevent
> >> >> >> Virus from happening. Or prevent the Solomani cruiser from
> ever
> >> >> crashing
> >> >> >> there. But then it turns out that without Virus Lucan would
> have
> >> won,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> that was even worse, so the Canon/Time Police have to go
> back and
> >> prevent
> >> >> >> that prevention from happening
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Like Laumer's Dinosaur Beach where all of the successive
> >> >> "corrections"
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> the past riddle the "time fabric" with so many holes that it
> >> >> eventually
> >> >> >> goes into heat death. I've always thought that Dino Beach
> was the
> >> >> last
> >> >> >> word on time travel because it presents its logical
> conclusion.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >
>
>
>