I don't remember that quote, but take your point, that the result they got
from the failed DL 12 went beyond their intial estimates. Which I have no
problem with. Since, as I said, we would have never published, "here was
the Hiver manipulation plan, here's what went right, here's what went
wrong," that hypothesis is perfectly valid. As is the other one, "There
never really has been a successful Hiver manipulation, you people are just
paranoid."
Nonetheless, I know that it was embedded in my understanding of the RC
that they were engaged in this breakneck, "we started too early, we have
to keep going as fast as we can, if we slow down all is lost"
marathon-length sprint which meant that they would do things more roughly
than ideally they might have wanted to. I Googled some stuff today and was
taken to some RPG discussion boards where the posters who loved TNE were
pointing out that TNE made it explicitly clear that there were some real
ends-and-means issues going on the RC, which fits with my recollection.
And given my other recollections of discussions that the SV/RC might
"inoculate humanity against interstellar warfare" (or whatever, I earlier
wrote "...against violence," which is too general, and reaching too far) I
have to say that was probably the "sound bite" for what the Hivers
intended, or at least would claim they intended. I think the other reason
I intuitively want to stick with that is that we never intended that the
Hivers would modify their support for the RC in the way one would expect
if their experiment ran off the rails and they were trying to rein it back
in.
However, you have some details in mind from H&I that I might not be
remembering that might make me have a V8 moment.
> Oh yeah, I get they got the nudge and the arming to deal with the threat
would have been logical reaction and simple prudence... It's the way
someone in the TNE rule book reminisces about a sweet gentle female on one
> of the ships and muses they have the "cure" for the xenophobia they
encountered and it was coherent light & star hot plasma or something to
that effect.
>
> This quote said they sort of lost their minds collectively and thirsted
not
> just for a prudent reaction a Hiver might have expected but instead a
thirst for vengeance. I'm sure some smart Hivers would be able to deduce
and correctly predict the concept of revenge but not the extent or
irrational and sometimes brilliant as well as foolish means it would take.
> IOW, I agree the DL as undoubtedly a Manipulation, but don't see is
reconfiguration into the RC as intended. Of course some Hiver would claim
> credit, but it smacks of the Psionic Suppression going far beyond what
was
> intended and assuming it's own momentum and most of the Hivers involved
giving a hiver equivalent of "whoa" (and subtly shifting to supporting the
> Centrists to try to balance the equation back towards its original
intent).
> Of course, Oriflamme will be skeptical and suspicious and certain
technarchs will uncover it on their own, though it may be dismissed as
paranoia...
>
> Meanwhile their expansion proceeds faster than the Hivers can
> influence/control/claim control which I had ultimately leading back to
your
> earlier posts to TNE-RCES and the past tense hints in H&I of the demise
of
> the Federation (or more precisely the Hiver hegemony of IMTU).
>
> Cosmic Fire is the mission where a group of Droyne have a Virus computer
and taking it out causes political debate leading in to Sandman & Vampire
> Fleets.
>
> - Sent from my SM-N900T
> On Mar 23, 2014 3:26 PM, <> wrote:
>
>> As with all things Hiver, it is open to interpretation and revisionism.
I probably should have put the usual disclaimer in front of it, "we had
not made a decision, and if we ever felt compelled to put something into
>> print, this may not have been it," along with the additional
disclaimer,
>> which I started to get at with the "sludge," but didn't take all the
way,
>> "Any claim that ANY character, ESPECIALLY a Hiver, intended a
particular
>> outcome is to be taken as an "in-game" piece of wisdom, and not
objective
>> truth, in the tradition of Zhodani, psionic suppressions, Aslan not a
major race, etc." And the account below was definitely a case of my
"leaning forward" to "if I had to say today what it probably was, here it
>> is."
>> Your observation on H&I is correct, they definitely do exaggerate and
falsify, but they do attempt things, and revise their intents later on to
>> fit what happened. But H&I was not trying to say that the Hivers were
impotent and you didn't have to worry about what they were up to. It was
>> more to open up, "If we take seriously the claims made about Hivers,
these
>> are the complex issues and consequences bound up within that." You
should
>> come away from H&I with a sense of paranoia and mental illness, but not
a
>> sense that the Hivers had been defanged because their net vector was 0.
These guys murder each other to cover things up and say, "huh, there's
that strange glandular deficiencies thing again, I wonder what causes
that?"
>> We do know the following:
>> 1. DL/RC WAS a Hiver manipulation. Everything they do is, and they were
backing the DL/RC. Therefore there are innumerable Hivers trying for a
certain result to claim later, or preparing their claims to encompass what
>> they get. Besides, if it's not, there's no point in involving them in
the
>> storyline anyway. Chekhov's rifle above the mantel.
>> 2. We do know that DL/RC was pushed to go before they were ready. I'm
sure
>> that was written somewhere, if not, it's so deeply embedded in
>> everything
>> that I wrote about them that it might as well have been.
>> 3. The concept of "inoculating the humans against violence" was
something
>> that Frank and I discussed during the "who are these SV guys?" period.
I
>> thought it was an interesting but fatuous notion, exactly the sort of
thing that someone would claim after the fact, "here's why we did
this."
>> In other words, a Hiver manipulation claim.
>> While you are correct that strong emotions are beyond their
>> understanding,
>> just because they don't understand something doesn't mean they won't
try
>> to use a thing they don't fully understand and thereby screw it up. And
since any manipulation is literally an experiment anyway, they're still
learning, or claiming to be learning.
>> And I don't see the failure of the 12 DL missions to be playing off of
DL
>> emotions (anger). It is playing off of simple pragmatic
>> cause-and-effect.
>> "We have announced our presence here in 12 different directions. None
have
>> returned. That means its worse out there than we thought, and no
however
>> killed the 12 knows we're here, and is probably coming for us. We have
to
>> get them, in bigger, better-armed numbers, before they get us, and keep
going. Because we keep announcing our presence bigger and bigger, which
will invite more response, so we have to keep pushing our frontier farther
>> and farther out, without pause to allow an opportunity for someone to
hit
>> us while we are resting." If it's based on an emotion, it's fear, but
mostly it is pragmatic.
>> Is "Cosmic Fire" the mission that made the players go, "ewww?" We did
not
>> commission an adventure to say, "make the RC look less-than-perfect,"
but
>> when it came in, it fit with the notion that warfare is awful and
imprecise, that the RC is going to have to get its hands dirty, and that's
>> part of why there are people in the future saying, "Star Viking." And
it
>> was better than doing the Star Trek thing where, "the Federation never
does anything mean." Either that or Frank wrote it with that idea
deliberately in mind.
>> I think as I went on in the reply I was not distinguishing between
"Hiver
>> manipulation" vs. "overall effect of RC as 'Star Vikings'" as in this
discussion the two were closely related.
>> So, was DL/RC a Hiver manipulation? Absolutely. They wouldn't have put
all
>> the backing behind it that they did were it not. Is what I described
above
>> actually what was going on? It's as good a "I must guess now" as
anything,
>> and follows the necessary Chekhov rule: "if Hivers are involved you
can't
>> say they aren't up to something or their help doesn't come with
attempted
>> weird influences." Does my reply reflect what we would have published?
Almost absolutely not, because my intent was that for as long as GDW
existed we would never make an official statement on something like that,
>> because that kind of ambiguity and mystery is best left in the player's
minds, we must merely water and feed it every once in a while, and let
them draw their own conclusions.
>> > Epic reply Dave. I need to study this at length done, I'd not put in
>> my
>> > compilation of your "best of" aka "DSB."
>> >
>> > I always took the point of H&I to claim the Hivers were more
>> exaggerating,
>> > if not outright falsely claiming manipulations which they really had
>> no
>> > control over, though I had decided MTU had it a bit more in the
middle
>> > between their claims versus the reality. Strong emotions, especially
>> the
>> > anger/rage/hate, but also pure altruism/love/sacrifice on the other
>> end
>> > were clearly beyond their understanding and we're thus unable to
influence,
>> > though many would perform manipulations to simply study them. I did
>> have
>> > an
>> > idea for a colony of Hivers that were evangelized and formed human
>> style
>> > nuclear-esque families near Turin.
>> >
>> > Definitely does some ambiguous situations where the Coalition would
>> really
>> > benefit from some crucial piece of industrial infrastructure but
would
>> > cripple the host world. Assembly votes to take it. Hammer assembles
>> the
>> > mission... And the PCs are forced to either justify it or defy it.
>> That's
>> > even more towards real ambiguity than Cosmic Fire...
>> >
>> > I did have a Federation battlegroup in the Stepping Stones as well as
another to Rimwardthe would occasionally probe towards Cymbeline as
>> well
>> > as
>> > studying various Vampire patterns and attempting to pull
manipulations
>> on
>> > Viruses (which included their own experiments on various strains
>> similar
>> > to
>> > what was harrowing in the Regency). I don't think they'd stick their
appendages out enough to shadow any of the 12 directly, though and
certainly not any of the Coalition groups, though I do fond the idea
intriguing enough to retcon.
>> >
>> > I think TL model works for what is most prevalent to the general
>> public
>> in
>> > the primary starport/economic center, but below "cutting edge" for
>> what a
>> > government/megacorp, etc is capable of producing in limited quanitity
>> at
>> > enormous expense which could be 1-2 higher in specific fieldsand
>> sometimes
>> > with trade offs (bugs, etc). Similarly, rural areas works be lower
(possibly much lower). I don't find that a problen wuth the TL system
>> as
>> > much as reading to much into it.
>> >
>> > - Sent from my SM-N900T
>> > On Mar 23, 2014 12:59 PM, <> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Eamon--
>> >>
>> >> (Either I lied/misspoke/changed my mind. You be the judge of my
character.)
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to get back to your Sufren question later (and finish my
longer
>> >> answer to Bardbear). Please remind me about Sufren if I don't get to
>> it
>> >> in, say, a week.
>> >>
>> >> The answer to your question is a combination of the three bullets
>> plus
>> >> the
>> >> Free Trader thing.
>> >>
>> >> Hiver manipulation, yes. But Hiver manipulation plays on tendencies
>> also
>> >> present, like over-enthusiasm, as a basis. And also plays on data
available to the actors they are manipulating, your third bullet
(asterisk). That data will include data received from the FTs, your fourth
>> >> (unbulleted) point.
>> >>
>> >> "Hiver manipulation," some points. If you take seriously the notion
>> that
>> >> their highest aspiration is manipulating others, then they are all
constantly doing it to each other, which means that there are a lot
>> of
>> >> cross-cutting manipulations going on, undermining/diluting each
other
>> so
>> >> that "big manipulations" tend to melt into an imprecise sludge.
>> Better
>> >> manipulators are aware of this, and plan to allow for sludge. Think
>> of
>> >> Asimov's psycho-history in the Foundation Trilogy, which also allows
>> for
>> >> these. Also remember that all Hivers are "orphans," so are missing
>> all
>> >> of
>> >> those developmental inputs for duty, hierarchy, structure to parents
that
>> >> humans start with. They spend all those years in the wilderness
>> relying
>> >> only on themselves, periodically being exterminated by adult Hivers,
>> so
>> >> what they learn is, "I can only depend on myself, everyone else is
>> out
>> >> to
>> >> get me." All Hivers are essentially independent actor egoists
(egoist
>> in
>> >> the philosophical sense, not egotist, there is a difference),
>> beholden
>> >> to
>> >> none, and that motivation "good of the hive/race" is such a porous
statement that it can be used to justify any action. Hivers are
>> scary,
>> >> and
>> >> being a Hiver is scary.
>> >>
>> >> (Note, I am currently reading "The Hidden-Hand Presidency" about
Eisenhower. This book was published in 1982 and popularized the
term,
>> >> "hidden hand." Compare this to other Traveller developments since
>> then.
>> >> However, note that, aside from the applicability of the term, the
way
>> >> Ike
>> >> practiced this is NOT the Hiver model per se. Ike practiced a human
version of this, where he cultivated an external "act" to aid the
accomplishment of his internal goals. That's obviously not unrelated
>> to
>> >> things a Hiver might do, but not as sophisticated, because to his
>> inner
>> >> circle, via his memos, etc., his goals were clear. A Hiver would
have
>> to
>> >> conceal even these until he was ready to go, "Ta-daaaa!")
>> >>
>> >> Since everyone knows that Hivers are manipulators, they need to have
>> a
>> >> public (politically correct) rationale for their policies. With the
>> RC
>> >> it's: "Stable polities on our border make for improved security,
elimination of chaos and vectors for attack, and allow profitable
trade."
>> >> Beneath that is the notion that the DL was not really ready to
>> expand,
>> >> and
>> >> the Hivers are jump-starting that for two reasons: 1) the sooner we
begin
>> >> the re-expansion, the sooner we will have stability (public
>> rationale),
>> >> and 2) the mechanism of the RC expansion was to "inoculate" humans
against
>> >> violence, i.e., doing the typical "we made the Ithklur less violent"
Hiver
>> >> thing (and we know that didn't really work) and to make them more
manageable by the Hivers.
>> >>
>> >> The idea is that RC and Regency expansion are fundamentally
>> different.
>> >> The
>> >> Regency kept a "safe," reasonably robust economy so when they expand
>> it
>> >> will be more deliberate, coming in and helping the locals, knitting
>> them
>> >> into the Regency economy, etc. The Regency expansion is "growing the
pie,"
>> >> not fighting over slices of the pie. The RC doesn't really have an
economy. Their expansion is "the future is right now, right now,
>> right
>> >> now," and depends on grabbing high-value assets which it repurposes
>> to
>> >> their own use, i.e., fueling continued expansion. Their growth is
>> more
>> >> zero-sum, fighting over pie slices, but incapable of growing the pie
organically right away. The way they grow the pie is by expanding
the
>> >> radius that defines that pie and grabbing more of it. The Regency is
concerned with "hearts and minds," while the RC is, "we're doing
this
>> >> for
>> >> your own good, we know you can't see it now, but someday you'll
thank
>> >> us."
>> >>
>> >> Another way of thinking of this is something that is much more
politically freighted in 2014 than it was in 1991-1995, but the
point
>> >> remains. The Regency is growing its economy much more slowly,
BECAUSE
>> IT
>> >> CAN AFFORD TO, while the RC is engaged in wholesale deficit
spending,
>> >> balancing that deficit as best it can by grabbing more stuff to keep
>> the
>> >> fires stoked, but in an ultimately unsustainable model. Now, re:
1991-1995
>> >> vs. 2014, YOU SHOULD NEVER TAKE THIS as "one of them is
>> >> Republican/Democrat or Red/Blue, that was never the intent. Both are
responding to conditions around them: Regency has the luxury of its
approach, RC does not have that luxury, because the Hivers pushed
>> them
>> >> into expanding prematurely, and once they got committed to that,
they
>> >> were
>> >> riding the tiger and there was no getting off. Once you attract
attention
>> >> to yourself, you invite attack, so you have to push out and defend
forward
>> >> (best defense = good offense). However, I know that now that I've
>> said
>> >> this, the Red/Blue meme is going to take on a life of its own
because
>> no
>> >> one is going to be able to resist it. (This is also a good way to
>> spot
>> >> lurkers on this list, and where they're funneling their digests.)
>> >>
>> >> But anyway, Regency comes to your planet, topples your TED, and
immediately starts investing, buying up whatever crap you make, and
pulling you into the economy. On the other hand, RC comes in,
topples
>> >> your
>> >> TED, kills a bunch of people in inevitable collateral damage, steals
>> all
>> >> the cool stuff, and might not come back, except to steal other cool
stuff,
>> >> which may harm the locals who had depended upon it. Does the RC try
>> to
>> >> help uplift the locals? Yes, but given their resources they can't do
>> as
>> >> much of it as the Regency, it is much more shoestring, and oh, by
the
>> >> way,
>> >> requires them to go steal more new stuff from somebody else to
>> support
>> >> the
>> >> uplift project. Is what the RC is doing "for the greater good?"
Arguably,
>> >> yes. Is what the RC doing going to seem high-handed, violent,
unfair,
>> >> and
>> >> capricious to the locals that the RC "preys on" to fuel the "greater
good"
>> >> economy? Yes, hence "Star Vikings." While the Guild may be the ones
running around teaching the vocabulary words, "Star Viking,
>> Longships,"
>> >> the intent behind that capability is embedded in the Hiver
>> manipulation,
>> >> with the goal that, "look at how much we had to suffer to recover to
where
>> >> we are now, let alone the war that put us there to begin with, this
>> has
>> >> taught us that We Must Never Fight Again(TM)." The idea is that it
>> might
>> >> be nice to be an omelette, but if you were one of the eggs that went
into
>> >> the omelette, you would not remember the chef fondly.
>> >>
>> >> There are other little clues to this throughout. There's an
adventure
>> in
>> >> S&G or PoT that players rightly regarded as chilling, where the RC
>> took
>> >> some important thing that the locals needed. Also in S&G I put in a
quote
>> >> from Ritter, "I didn't say Smash and Grab, I said stash what you've
>> got
>> >> and grab some more. I'll never hear the end of this." And Ritter is
right,
>> >> the title of the book is Smash and Grab, and that's another example
>> of
>> >> how
>> >> the Hiver manipulation turned "reformation" into "Star Vikings." (As
>> we
>> >> know, the actual Reformation turned into the 30-Years war, another
example.)
>> >>
>> >> Now, back to manipulation, we said above, "over-enthusiasm," which
>> then
>> >> became, "oh crap, now we've called attention to ourselves." That
over-enthusiasm was caused by their astrographic isolation, and
intel
>> >> they
>> >> were getting from the Free Traders? Yes. BUT, were there Hiver
battlefleets out there protecting the DL, allowing them to get to
>> where
>> >> they thought space was kind of safe? Were some of the Free Trader
reports
>> >> coming in as Hiver intelligence digests: "We've talked to a bunch of
>> FTs
>> >> the past year, and in summary they say XYZ."
>> >>
>> >> And a step further. Some of the DL ships that disappeared without a
trace,
>> >> is it because they were snapped up by a Hiver shadowing force to
>> ensure
>> >> they didn't return? Where are those ships/crews now? Back to
trailing
>> in
>> >> some Federation Navy holding cell? Atomized to eliminate evidence?
Do
>> >> the
>> >> Ithklur of "Hands Across the Truth" know about this and want to tell
someone? We clearly published somewhere that, "we are not going to
officially say what happened to all of these ships." I also know in
reality that whenever a publisher or TV show or movie says this,
they
>> >> always eventually do in response to public clamor. So, while I knew
>> that
>> >> it would eventually happen, either act of commission on GDW's part,
>> or
>> >> act
>> >> of omission by failing to see that someone else published it (e.g.,
licensee), the intent was to NOT do that for as long as possible.
>> >>
>> >> The plan was NEVER to publish or officially establish any of that,
because
>> >> part of the mystery of Hivers and manipulations is that you allow
>> them
>> >> to
>> >> remain the subject of speculation. I was going to expose "the
underbelly"
>> >> of Hiver politics through another means, in the epic adventure that
never
>> >> happened, which showed an earlier "Terminal Manipulation" which
would
>> >> allow players to think, "whoa," and look over their shoulders more.
>> But
>> >> just as introducing Yaskoydray made the Ancients boring, showing all
>> the
>> >> Hiver puppet strings makes them less interesting then if you just
>> wonder
>> >> about them.
>> >>
>> >> And here's the other thing to pull from that. The Hivers were
backing
>> >> the
>> >> RC, not the Regency, and when the two met the Hivers would have some
opinions about that. Also, there was an established early strain of
psionic Hivers which would fit with advocates of the RC POV not
being
>> >> present to argue historiography.
>> >>
>> >> Back to the FTs, as I said in an earlier post, we were clearly
>> falling
>> >> behind in fleshing them out as well as we had initially intended,
and
>> >> probably would not have caught back up.
>> >>
>> >> Re: DL tech, not sure what you mean by Tech/Starport backwater. If
>> you
>> >> mean did their 1201 tech come from direct Hiver improvements? Yes,
>> the
>> >> Hivers brought them up through various means. Here we run afoul of
>> the
>> >> "Traveller TL model," which is at best murky and ambiguous, as it
clearly
>> >> does NOT mean that you can produce all you need there. There are all
kinds
>> >> of lo-pop worlds with high tech, and they obviously don't build all
>> that
>> >> stuff there, but rely on trade. Economics is hard in this one real
world,
>> >> so expecting a game to have a perfect economic model for 20,000
>> worlds
>> >> 4000 years from now is silly. But the idea is that the Hivers could
provide key technologies, such as power plants, industrial tooling, etc.,
>> >> which would have pulled DL up higher than they otherwise were.
>> >>
>> >> I think that covers it all, provides some food for thought, and
>> perhaps
>> >> more questions.
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >> > ...this is my only chance to post for a week.
>> >> >
>> >> > One thing we got to talking about on the TNE Sub-forum at CotI,
was
>> >> the
>> >> reasons why the DL sent such woefully-unprepared missions out into
>> the
>> >> wilds.
>> >> >
>> >> > If I remember correctly some ideas were:
>> >> >
>> >> > * Hiver Manipulation (Didn't rate this myself).
>> >> >
>> >> > * Over-enthusiasm.
>> >> >
>> >> > * Being astrographically isolated, and so having no ability to
>> compare
>> >> home vs. wilds.
>> >> >
>> >> > Free Traders were a puzzle, in that you would think they'd provide
>> >> some
>> >> kind of heads-up to the DL - but if they're all local, then maybe
>> not.
>> >> >
>> >> > Brings to mind a question about how rapid was the DL's advance in
>> >> technology - perhaps they were also a tech/starport backwater before
Hiver
>> >> > contact?
>> >> >
>> >> > Eamon, who is not posting any more tonight - honest!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>