Gary--
> I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic Christian. :D
>
> less facetiously of the Latin Rite, though I admire most of the Eastern
Fathers as much as those of the West.
I'm an Evangelical Catholic Christian, which is the name Brother Martin
preferred, and they still use in Germany.
> Some is implied. Most of it hasn't been put up explicitly yet, though
if
> it appears too "progressive," maybe I need to make it a higher priority. ;)
Yeah, I think you need to. As I read it, I did not hear the jackbooted
stomps of a corrupt, power-hungry hierarchy masquerading as men of God,
and it sounds like you want me to hear that.
To be fair, right now it's mostly a framework of historical events, so
ones imagination can color it any way one likes.
> It's the logical endpoint and something that would be uncomfortable to
> many in the West accustomed to a greater secularization, particularly in
what's usually seen as personal matters yet undeniably crimes that could
be
> classified as mala in se rather than mala prohibita (particularly
adultery). The point of the Turin Consolidation seemed the rejection of
secularism, though I thought it should still have a very Solomani
rejection
> of the [Vilani] Imperium's ethos (which would seem a necessary
> prerequisite
> for it's membership in the Confederation as opposed to the Imperium).
I
> did consider that the trappings of Christendom would invite the
nobility,
> etc which is why I referenced some of the colonies altering themselves
to
> Constitutional Monarchies. Dichotomy seems to be the modus operandi.
> Supports Hiroshi's goals, though not all of his methods (for example),
> mostly those elements that inspired them to leave Terra in the
> Interstellar
> Wars to begin with. Toleration of agnostics and atheists doesn't precisely
> mean they'd be welcomed, particularly if they behaved as belligerents
and
> excommunication would be a very serious offense, particularly in the
early
> days. While they wouldn't be burned at the stake or stoned, they would
effectively become persona non grata if not effectively exiled.
You'll want to find a way to counter-point the factual statements that
imply progressivism. You know, say them, and then three lines later talk
about a ship load of agnostics sent to the local gas giant to make a
pilgrimmage to their god, if they decide to believe in him. And then have
the Papal Legate say, "The Lord recognized His own."
> I was more interested in covering the breadth of Traveller history but I do
> like to envision the Vilani Mission launched to proselytize while the
Interstellar Wars were heating up, if not raging. I've often questioned
whether I have the stones for martyrdom myself, if not the pure selfless
denial that would be required for such an undertaking, likely doomed to
a
> fate of an obscure fate hundreds of light years from home and unlamented
and unmourned.
Probably good that you don't. Most people who drone on and on about how
they'd like to be martyred are just self-absorbed, and are counting on a
large audience for their big finish.
> The Missions themselves would have been aimed at precisely that, though
it's an interesting philosophical exercise to ponder the need of
salvation
> or not that the various aliens would have.
Exactly, which is one of the things I find intriguing.
> One can make numerous
> arguments
> for and against the various Major and Minor Races and I thought of canon
and non-canon examples of each that would instigate an appropriate
amount
> of theological wrangling inside the Universal-Orthodox Church in Charted
Space. The likely reaction of the K'kree to the Eucharist and
> Transubstantiation is a favorite of the former, as well as the glorious
martyrdom that would be likely to follow.
Yes, very nice touch. "You had this perfectly nice wafer, and you turned
it into meat? Whatthehellsamatter with you? Wait a minute, it's not meat.
You're lying."
"No I'm not, it really is meat. Kill me."
"No, I won't kill you, because it's not meat."
"Yes it is. Shoot me now! Shoot me now! I must place God in my debt!"
"Oh, shut up."
> A bit beyond, since the higher clergy would in some ways more resemble
their medieval counterparts and have at least limited secular authority.
> I
> imagine the modern Roman Church's prohibition of outright politics would
continue through the Interstellar Wars period with more of the
> unscrupulous
> pushing the boundaries as far as they could and in the face of the
increasing chaos in the Rule of Man would probably be condoned if not
promoted as a backstop against the lack of central secular authority.
I can definitely see that, you just need to punch up the description a bit
more so I can tell that's what I'm supposed to see.
> Yet not everything that is unchanging is bad and not all change is for
the
> better.
No, change simply IS. As time goes by, some of it happens. The hints about
the impending further upgrade of Mary do, in fact offer something to the
growing voice of women in society, internationally. So maybe that instead
of the priesthood.
> I would likely have avoided any explicit reference, and like to
> imagine the timelessness potential that the core pillars in AD 3000,
4000,
> or 5000 wouldn't necessarily differ as much from AD 1000 or 2000 in
that
> regard.
One of the things about change is that we retrospectively decide that
pillars were not pillars after all, that other things were more important.
I wouldn't think of male clergy as a pillar compared to so many other
things.
"Let us posit a middle case, that God should not be God."
"Parliament has not the competence."
> Indeed, I generally wouldn't dispute those in favor of the Lutheran
though
> I would tend to Anglican on the intercession of Saints, the nature of
Holy
> Orders and the procession of the Sacraments.
Yeah, but again, those came with the franchise. :-) You buy a Burger King,
you don't throw out the deep fryers.
> Both would face the largest obstacle to ecumenical reunion and be
incompatible on grounds of Justification and particularly ideas of Sola
Fidei and Sola Scriptura though from my perspective there is stronger
influence of Anglo-Catholics in the Anglicans ranks. Of course, I'm
speaking in vague generalities
As I pointed out later, the Lutheran World Federation and RC issued a
Joint Declaration on Justification around the turn of the millennium, so
that is officially not an issue. Not that most of our members know about
it. Argumentative history is more fun.
>
> How about just the Council itself, if not the idea of Caelis Torino?
You mean the idea of a Theocracy in space? Or of a spiritual ideal behind
that? I'll need a little more information to give that the attention it
deserves.
> Definitely Interesting. I like that idea. And the etymology of the
Melancthonian Rite. So shall it be in the next revision.
Cool. There are a lot of High Church Lutherans who would probably join
right away.
> You definitely give me ideas to incorporate and flesh out a bit more of
the early pre-IW history.
I am pleased and honored. :-)
> Certainly. I just don't find the differences to be nearly as
significant
> as those of say... Arius or Nestorius or even the Iconoclast Emperors or
their minions they intruded on the Patriarchal throne.
Sure, except that you've got the disagreements of the Great Schism taking
place between the literate leaders and not involving the masses, and the
later example of the Reformation taking place by riding on/with social
movements where the "religious issues" got popularized where your German
peasant could decide he agreed with something. Those issues might appear
or legitimately be more piddling, but the common man might not get what
the big deal about the Trinity is anyway, whereas getting German Mass vice
"Hocus Pocus" Latin he could understand. So you've got different
prototypes of Christian fission: elite and popular.
> Right. That's the general intent of my use of the term and most definitely
> lacking any pejorative intent. Less hyphenated than
> "Non-Universal-Orthodox" but (generalizing, of course) with a sola fidei
and/or sola scriptura perspective.
And a whole lotta works righteousness, AND intellectualization
masquerading as faith.
> That was facetious. Survival Margin said he expressed interest, though
I
> never took it to mean he actually joined. Which is why he wore black
and
> one of the reasons he's known as "Dulinor the Black." Even before the
pejorative inspired by the assassination and later Black War.
You're right, he wore the black because he lived among them but was not of
them. Still, my point was the same, "Dulinor lived near a faith called
Virasa, and they told him how to dress."
>> But when you say, "Cleon was a
>> (Latin) Catholic," I go, "huh? That doesn't make sense."
> Not precisely what I intended, either.
No, I got what you said, that he was culturally or nominally Catholic, or
claimed by the Catholics. What I meant was for any in-game phrase "Cleon
was Catholic" to be logically comprehensible makes me pause. But why not?
> For Cleon, it was noted in the same
> tone as the Imperial Encyclopedia data that has some kernel of truth but
may or may not be objectively true as the Ref's Section (and preference)
would determine. It could be Universal-Orthodox Propaganda...
> anti-Alkhalikoi propaganda, etc and most of the general history is to be
considered as commonly accepted in the timeframe of the New Era (subject
to
> the reconstruction of the local database, fragmentary hard copy records,
etc). IMTU caveat would have had him more in the mold of Hiroshi,
possibly
> practicing but keeping it in the contemporary 20th century public sphere as
> a private personal matter than one that influenced his governing, much less
> government. It also served the purpose of spreading the neglected concept
> of religion in general through "Big Names" in Traveller history. Though I
> purposely left off any mention of the more fleshed out characters of the
late 3I, Rebellion, Hard Times, and New Era. Though naturally have my
own
> ideas.
Sure, I get that. The idea of the impulse to do so in Traveller is simply
such an unusual one, it makes me stop. But I like what you've done with
the place.
But I have to ask, what are your ideas about the later characters? Pat
Ritter, good German name, definitely Melancthonian Rite? Strephon? Craig?
Norris? Maggart? "Hammer" Lathrop? Dilgaadin?
Talk to you soon,
Dave
> I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic Christian. :D
>
> less facetiously of the Latin Rite, though I admire most of the Eastern
Fathers as much as those of the West.
I'm an Evangelical Catholic Christian, which is the name Brother Martin
preferred, and they still use in Germany.
> Some is implied. Most of it hasn't been put up explicitly yet, though
if
> it appears too "progressive," maybe I need to make it a higher priority. ;)
Yeah, I think you need to. As I read it, I did not hear the jackbooted
stomps of a corrupt, power-hungry hierarchy masquerading as men of God,
and it sounds like you want me to hear that.
To be fair, right now it's mostly a framework of historical events, so
ones imagination can color it any way one likes.
> It's the logical endpoint and something that would be uncomfortable to
> many in the West accustomed to a greater secularization, particularly in
what's usually seen as personal matters yet undeniably crimes that could
be
> classified as mala in se rather than mala prohibita (particularly
adultery). The point of the Turin Consolidation seemed the rejection of
secularism, though I thought it should still have a very Solomani
rejection
> of the [Vilani] Imperium's ethos (which would seem a necessary
> prerequisite
> for it's membership in the Confederation as opposed to the Imperium).
I
> did consider that the trappings of Christendom would invite the
nobility,
> etc which is why I referenced some of the colonies altering themselves
to
> Constitutional Monarchies. Dichotomy seems to be the modus operandi.
> Supports Hiroshi's goals, though not all of his methods (for example),
> mostly those elements that inspired them to leave Terra in the
> Interstellar
> Wars to begin with. Toleration of agnostics and atheists doesn't precisely
> mean they'd be welcomed, particularly if they behaved as belligerents
and
> excommunication would be a very serious offense, particularly in the
early
> days. While they wouldn't be burned at the stake or stoned, they would
effectively become persona non grata if not effectively exiled.
You'll want to find a way to counter-point the factual statements that
imply progressivism. You know, say them, and then three lines later talk
about a ship load of agnostics sent to the local gas giant to make a
pilgrimmage to their god, if they decide to believe in him. And then have
the Papal Legate say, "The Lord recognized His own."
> I was more interested in covering the breadth of Traveller history but I do
> like to envision the Vilani Mission launched to proselytize while the
Interstellar Wars were heating up, if not raging. I've often questioned
whether I have the stones for martyrdom myself, if not the pure selfless
denial that would be required for such an undertaking, likely doomed to
a
> fate of an obscure fate hundreds of light years from home and unlamented
and unmourned.
Probably good that you don't. Most people who drone on and on about how
they'd like to be martyred are just self-absorbed, and are counting on a
large audience for their big finish.
> The Missions themselves would have been aimed at precisely that, though
it's an interesting philosophical exercise to ponder the need of
salvation
> or not that the various aliens would have.
Exactly, which is one of the things I find intriguing.
> One can make numerous
> arguments
> for and against the various Major and Minor Races and I thought of canon
and non-canon examples of each that would instigate an appropriate
amount
> of theological wrangling inside the Universal-Orthodox Church in Charted
Space. The likely reaction of the K'kree to the Eucharist and
> Transubstantiation is a favorite of the former, as well as the glorious
martyrdom that would be likely to follow.
Yes, very nice touch. "You had this perfectly nice wafer, and you turned
it into meat? Whatthehellsamatter with you? Wait a minute, it's not meat.
You're lying."
"No I'm not, it really is meat. Kill me."
"No, I won't kill you, because it's not meat."
"Yes it is. Shoot me now! Shoot me now! I must place God in my debt!"
"Oh, shut up."
> A bit beyond, since the higher clergy would in some ways more resemble
their medieval counterparts and have at least limited secular authority.
> I
> imagine the modern Roman Church's prohibition of outright politics would
continue through the Interstellar Wars period with more of the
> unscrupulous
> pushing the boundaries as far as they could and in the face of the
increasing chaos in the Rule of Man would probably be condoned if not
promoted as a backstop against the lack of central secular authority.
I can definitely see that, you just need to punch up the description a bit
more so I can tell that's what I'm supposed to see.
> Yet not everything that is unchanging is bad and not all change is for
the
> better.
No, change simply IS. As time goes by, some of it happens. The hints about
the impending further upgrade of Mary do, in fact offer something to the
growing voice of women in society, internationally. So maybe that instead
of the priesthood.
> I would likely have avoided any explicit reference, and like to
> imagine the timelessness potential that the core pillars in AD 3000,
4000,
> or 5000 wouldn't necessarily differ as much from AD 1000 or 2000 in
that
> regard.
One of the things about change is that we retrospectively decide that
pillars were not pillars after all, that other things were more important.
I wouldn't think of male clergy as a pillar compared to so many other
things.
"Let us posit a middle case, that God should not be God."
"Parliament has not the competence."
> Indeed, I generally wouldn't dispute those in favor of the Lutheran
though
> I would tend to Anglican on the intercession of Saints, the nature of
Holy
> Orders and the procession of the Sacraments.
Yeah, but again, those came with the franchise. :-) You buy a Burger King,
you don't throw out the deep fryers.
> Both would face the largest obstacle to ecumenical reunion and be
incompatible on grounds of Justification and particularly ideas of Sola
Fidei and Sola Scriptura though from my perspective there is stronger
influence of Anglo-Catholics in the Anglicans ranks. Of course, I'm
speaking in vague generalities
As I pointed out later, the Lutheran World Federation and RC issued a
Joint Declaration on Justification around the turn of the millennium, so
that is officially not an issue. Not that most of our members know about
it. Argumentative history is more fun.
>
> How about just the Council itself, if not the idea of Caelis Torino?
You mean the idea of a Theocracy in space? Or of a spiritual ideal behind
that? I'll need a little more information to give that the attention it
deserves.
> Definitely Interesting. I like that idea. And the etymology of the
Melancthonian Rite. So shall it be in the next revision.
Cool. There are a lot of High Church Lutherans who would probably join
right away.
> You definitely give me ideas to incorporate and flesh out a bit more of
the early pre-IW history.
I am pleased and honored. :-)
> Certainly. I just don't find the differences to be nearly as
significant
> as those of say... Arius or Nestorius or even the Iconoclast Emperors or
their minions they intruded on the Patriarchal throne.
Sure, except that you've got the disagreements of the Great Schism taking
place between the literate leaders and not involving the masses, and the
later example of the Reformation taking place by riding on/with social
movements where the "religious issues" got popularized where your German
peasant could decide he agreed with something. Those issues might appear
or legitimately be more piddling, but the common man might not get what
the big deal about the Trinity is anyway, whereas getting German Mass vice
"Hocus Pocus" Latin he could understand. So you've got different
prototypes of Christian fission: elite and popular.
> Right. That's the general intent of my use of the term and most definitely
> lacking any pejorative intent. Less hyphenated than
> "Non-Universal-Orthodox" but (generalizing, of course) with a sola fidei
and/or sola scriptura perspective.
And a whole lotta works righteousness, AND intellectualization
masquerading as faith.
> That was facetious. Survival Margin said he expressed interest, though
I
> never took it to mean he actually joined. Which is why he wore black
and
> one of the reasons he's known as "Dulinor the Black." Even before the
pejorative inspired by the assassination and later Black War.
You're right, he wore the black because he lived among them but was not of
them. Still, my point was the same, "Dulinor lived near a faith called
Virasa, and they told him how to dress."
>> But when you say, "Cleon was a
>> (Latin) Catholic," I go, "huh? That doesn't make sense."
> Not precisely what I intended, either.
No, I got what you said, that he was culturally or nominally Catholic, or
claimed by the Catholics. What I meant was for any in-game phrase "Cleon
was Catholic" to be logically comprehensible makes me pause. But why not?
> For Cleon, it was noted in the same
> tone as the Imperial Encyclopedia data that has some kernel of truth but
may or may not be objectively true as the Ref's Section (and preference)
would determine. It could be Universal-Orthodox Propaganda...
> anti-Alkhalikoi propaganda, etc and most of the general history is to be
considered as commonly accepted in the timeframe of the New Era (subject
to
> the reconstruction of the local database, fragmentary hard copy records,
etc). IMTU caveat would have had him more in the mold of Hiroshi,
possibly
> practicing but keeping it in the contemporary 20th century public sphere as
> a private personal matter than one that influenced his governing, much less
> government. It also served the purpose of spreading the neglected concept
> of religion in general through "Big Names" in Traveller history. Though I
> purposely left off any mention of the more fleshed out characters of the
late 3I, Rebellion, Hard Times, and New Era. Though naturally have my
own
> ideas.
Sure, I get that. The idea of the impulse to do so in Traveller is simply
such an unusual one, it makes me stop. But I like what you've done with
the place.
But I have to ask, what are your ideas about the later characters? Pat
Ritter, good German name, definitely Melancthonian Rite? Strephon? Craig?
Norris? Maggart? "Hammer" Lathrop? Dilgaadin?
Talk to you soon,
Dave