Thread: [Traveller_TNE] Celestial Real Estate Overstock

7 posts.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060313/sc_space/newfoundiceworldaltersperceptionsofplanetarysystems

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 "The newfound planet is about 13 times more massive than Earth and likely has an icy and rocky but barren terrestrial surface ..."
 
Looks like Trav's 0-A size range has finally come to an end. Maybe on Traveller's 100th anniversary there will be enough rocky worlds discovered that there will a large enough sample to determine an appropriate statistical distribution that whoever owns the game at that point (unless MM becomes a cyborg or has a stash of anagathics) will have to come up with a new world generation procedure. T100. Heh. There will probably be purists demanding that it remain 2d6-2 whether or not its accurate. "It's the spirit of the game man!" ;)
 
\_/
DED
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
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Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:23 PM
Subject: [Traveller_TNE] Celestial Real Estate Overstock

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060313/sc_space/newfoundiceworldaltersperceptionsofplanetarysystems



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--- DED <> wrote:

>  "The newfound planet is about 13 times more massive than Earth and likely has an icy and rocky
> but barren terrestrial surface ..."
>
> Looks like Trav's 0-A size range has finally come to an end. Maybe on Traveller's 100th
> anniversary there will be enough rocky worlds discovered that there will a large enough sample
> to determine an appropriate statistical distribution that whoever owns the game at that point
> (unless MM becomes a cyborg or has a stash of anagathics) will have to come up with a new world
> generation procedure. T100. Heh. There will probably be purists demanding that it remain 2d6-2
> whether or not its accurate. "It's the spirit of the game man!" ;)
>

What is more disturbing is the implication it has for planetology. Astronomers have been puzzling
over the existence of "hot jupiters" with impossibly close orbits to their primary suns, as it
defies the conventional theories on planetary accretion. This new discovery may indicate that ALL
terrestrial planets could, under the right circumstances, become the core of a gas giant, or
accumulate rocky material to the degree they become hostile to life. That could explain partially
Fermi's paradox, as it would indicate that planetary accretion has a "goldilocks" threshold where
a potential earth-like planet would need to stop growing in order to support life.

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--- Peter Gray <> wrote:

>
> If we can infer density data, yes, but there's no mention of it. If its metal cored, and density
> is about the same as Terra than it would be about 13 times as much volume...... let's see ... if
> we assume that the Earth is exactly 8000 miles in diameter then this world would be about....
>
> 18,800 miles in diameter.
>
> But of course that requires a pretty tall assumption. If it is the core of a gas giant that
> never
> materialized, and since it is in the outer system of a metal poor red dwarf star, then it could
> be
> nearly 22,000-28,000 miles diameter.
>

And if we us the simplified gravitational equation in WTG/WBH the gravity of the molten cored
first world would be around 2.3G. The latter rocky cored bodies would be 1.72G and 1.06G
respectively. So if one of these could be found lying in a habitable zone near a star it would be
quite a find for prospective colonies, though the vast distance to the horizon might be rather
disorienting to the human eye. Bear in mind that that a smaller body than this one had been found,
and we've just upset the entire Traveller world desigh canon.



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On 15 Mar 2006 at 18:12, Peter Gray wrote:

> What is more disturbing is the implication it has for planetology. Astronomers have been puzzling
> over the existence of "hot jupiters" with impossibly close orbits to their primary suns, as it
> defies the conventional theories on planetary accretion.

Not really. They had relatively minor modifications to the models
that'd create "hot Jupiters" within weeks of the discovery.

For that matter, the modifications consisted of taking *out* code
that'd prevented such "impossible" planets from forming.

> This new discovery may indicate that ALL terrestrial planets could,
> under the right circumstances, become the core of a gas giant, or
> accumulate rocky material to the degree they become hostile to life.

Not all. Note that Mars is likely so small *because* of Jupiter being
there. And the best explanation for hot jupiters has them starting in
the outer system and moving inward.

If the planet doesn't achieve a certain mass *before* getting to the
inner system, it *can't* accumulate gas faster than heating drives it
off.

> That could explain partially Fermi's paradox, as it would indicate
> that planetary accretion has a "goldilocks" threshold where a
> potential earth-like planet would need to stop growing in order to
> support life.

So our solar system isn't as typical as we thought. But we don't know
*how* atypical it is.

Remember, the current detection methods select for large, close
planets. That rocky/icy planet was detectable because of a very rare
situation.

Untill we have more and larger scopes in space, we won't really know
what typical systems are like.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com




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On 3/21/06, Peter Gray <> wrote:
> --- wrote:
> > Remember, the current detection methods select for large, close
> > planets. That rocky/icy planet was detectable because of a very rare
> > situation.
> >
> > Untill we have more and larger scopes in space, we won't really know
> > what typical systems are like.
>
> Its not that rare. Detection of large planets depend upon the measurement of the > wobble in the star's motion created by nearby gravitational attraction.

You are a bit unlucky here. What you just said is true for 173 of the
185 exoplanets discovered but this planet was discovered using the
gravitational microlensing method, not the radial velocity method.

>The target
> star in this case is an M-class red dwarf with a mass between 0.2 and 0.5 solar.
> The smaller stellar mass would have allowed a greater degree of deviation
> caused by any planetary objects of significant size, including Earth-sized
> planets.

The smallest planet found using the radial velocity method is ~7 times
as massive as Earth and orbits a nearby M2.5 class star. While
detecting a earth-sized planet is possible it would have to orbit
extremely close to the star. The alternative would be to wait a few
years for better equipment to come online and for more data to
accumulate. Astronomers are only begining to crack the lid open on
this treasure.

>What I'm pointing out here is the fact that "anomaly" in astronomy
> is actually rather common. Find just a few of these worlds in any given statistical
> sample of space, and its rather likely they're everywhere.

Definitely, but we have no idea how common smaller planets are in comparison.


/Patrik Holmström


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On 20 Mar 2006 at 15:00, Peter Gray wrote:

> --- wrote:
>
> > Remember, the current detection methods select for large, close
> > planets. That rocky/icy planet was detectable because of a very rare
> > situation.

> > Untill we have more and larger scopes in space, we won't really know
> > what typical systems are like.

> Its not that rare. Detection of large planets depend upon the
> measurement of the wobble in the star's motion created by nearby
> gravitational attraction. The target star in this case is an M-class
> red dwarf with a mass between 0.2 and 0.5 solar. The smaller stellar
> mass would have allowed a greater degree of deviation caused by any
> planetary objects of significant size, including Earth-sized planets.

Yeah, but if it hadn't been for a *rare* gravitational lensing
effect, they'd have never seen it in at the distance it was at.

Unless we are talking about different planets.

> What I'm pointing out here is the fact that "anomaly" in astronomy is
> actually rather common. Find just a few of these worlds in any given
> statistical sample of space, and its rather likely they're
> everywhere.

Sure, there will be a lot of worlds like the ones we've discovered.
But we don't know what percentage of worlds out there will be like
them. The sample *is* biased towards them.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com




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