On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:00:34 -0000, "Jake Collins"
<> wrote:
>Yes, lasers and mass drivers deviate from the otherwise consistent FF&S penetration rating system - and both are the source of many problems in their own ways requiring 'house rules'.
>
>I have for the longest time used Rupert's excellent suggested 'fix' for the Mass Driver penetration issue.
>Perhaps Rupert will post it again for Don's benefit.
Mass drivers are probably the only thing (except for chopper) that I
never touched in FF&S, so I really haven't experienced any problems
with them.
Roger Malmstein wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:00:34 -0000, "Jake Collins"
> <> wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, lasers and mass drivers deviate from the otherwise consistent FF&S penetration rating system - and both are the source of many problems in their own ways requiring 'house rules'.
>>
>> I have for the longest time used Rupert's excellent suggested 'fix' for the Mass Driver penetration issue.
>> Perhaps Rupert will post it again for Don's benefit.
>>
>
> Mass drivers are probably the only thing (except for chopper) that I
> never touched in FF&S, so I really haven't experienced any problems
> with them.
>
> What was the actual problem?
>
>
The problem is the same as the one underlying lasers - penetration is
linear with energy, and not with the root of energy. It's not only mass
drivers, but any weapon that uses the KE penetrator rules, and it also
results in a slightly messy interface between small arms and crew served
weapons. My fix did not addess the latter issue, as it was not, IMO at
the time, a major one. The linear penetration didn't seem like a problem
when you only used chemical and ETC guns, but with mass drivers you got
the effect that anything bigger than a 20mm gun could punch holes in
mountains.
What my fix did was change the table from a KE x constant system to
KE^1/2 x constant for most energies.
I have to admit I had not noticed a problem with mass driver penetration.
The couple that I did I didn't see anything outrageous for example a TL8
5cm/30 Mass Driver gave me a penetration of 275/265/255/235 firing APFSDSDU
this seems reasonable to me given that Twilight 2000 v2.2 (this is the one
that's supposed to be fully compatable ith TNE) gives the M1A2 frontal
armour of 120 on the turret and 200 on the hull. So this MD gun could knock
out an M1 at short range and damage it at extreme. Perhaps the problem gets
much worse with larger calibers? Or later higher velocity MDs?
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 07:25:10 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <>
wrote:
>Roger Malmstein wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:00:34 -0000, "Jake Collins"
>> <> wrote:
>The problem is the same as the one underlying lasers - penetration is
>linear with energy, and not with the root of energy. It's not only mass
>drivers, but any weapon that uses the KE penetrator rules, and it also
>results in a slightly messy interface between small arms and crew served
>weapons. My fix did not addess the latter issue, as it was not, IMO at
>the time, a major one. The linear penetration didn't seem like a problem
>when you only used chemical and ETC guns, but with mass drivers you got
>the effect that anything bigger than a 20mm gun could punch holes in
>mountains.
>
>What my fix did was change the table from a KE x constant system to
>KE^1/2 x constant for most energies.
I have read over the Mass Driver rules, and it seems that you only get
Muzzle Energy from the formulas. Actual penetrationis based on warhead
calculations further back in the book, and those calculations does
have limits to penetration dependent on muzzle energy.
Antony Farrell wrote:
> I have to admit I had not noticed a problem with mass driver penetration.
> The couple that I did I didn't see anything outrageous for example a TL8
> 5cm/30 Mass Driver gave me a penetration of 275/265/255/235 firing APFSDSDU
> this seems reasonable to me given that Twilight 2000 v2.2 (this is the one
> that's supposed to be fully compatable ith TNE) gives the M1A2 frontal
> armour of 120 on the turret and 200 on the hull. So this MD gun could knock
> out an M1 at short range and damage it at extreme. Perhaps the problem gets
> much worse with larger calibers? Or later higher velocity MDs?
>
Higher velocity ones mainly. Redesign the weapon at TL15, with maximum
velocity.
Roger Malmstein wrote:
>
> I have read over the Mass Driver rules, and it seems that you only get
> Muzzle Energy from the formulas. Actual penetrationis based on warhead
> calculations further back in the book, and those calculations does
> have limits to penetration dependent on muzzle energy.
>
Indeed. And those rules for warhead penetration have KE penetrators
performance scale linearly with energy, like lasers, and unlike
everything including KE rounds in the small arms rules.
My fix, which I have not found yet, gave very close to the same numbers
until you got the to the highest energy category on the table, at which
point it started with the same values (at the minimum energy end) and
then had penetration drop off compared to the RAW due to a change to
square root scaling.
> -----Original Message-----
From: Rupert Boleyn
Sent: Sunday, 9 August 2009 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re:Mass Driver Penetration -
> Was: Death of gearheading?
>
>
> Antony Farrell wrote:
> > I have to admit I had not noticed a problem with mass driver
> > penetration. The couple that I did I didn't see anything outrageous
> > for example a TL8 5cm/30 Mass Driver gave me a penetration of
> > 275/265/255/235 firing APFSDSDU this seems reasonable to me
> given that
> > Twilight 2000 v2.2 (this is the one that's supposed to be fully
> > compatable ith TNE) gives the M1A2 frontal armour of 120 on
> the turret
> > and 200 on the hull. So this MD gun could knock out an M1 at short
> > range and damage it at extreme. Perhaps the problem gets much worse
> > with larger calibers? Or later higher velocity MDs?
> >
> Higher velocity ones mainly. Redesign the weapon at TL15,
> with maximum
> velocity.
>
>
That explains that then. I mostly do stuff at the lower end of the design
spectrum, my own games generally run between TL9 and 11 with occassional 12
stuff. I find the lower end much more interesting..