Thread: Super-Earths

7 posts.



http://discovermagazine.com/2009/may/07-inspiring-boom-in-super-earths

Super-Earths are defined as dense, rocky worlds bigger than Earth that lack the tremendous atmosphere of gas giants. So far, astronomers have discovered 20 of them. It's quite likely that the Kepler spacecraft will detect a lot more. A more recent article has already put that number at 45.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/a-trio-of-super-earths-sur/

According to the second article, super-Earths are "4.2 - 9.4 times as heavy." I'm guessing that they mean "massive."

So how can all this be incorporated into Traveller? And could it ever be officially incorporated into the World Generation Rules?

World sizes run from 0 to 10,000 miles in diameter as a result of the 2D6 - 2 rule, with 5,000 being the most common result on the bell curve. If the -2 is dropped, we'll get a world range of 2,000 - 12,000 miles with 7,000 being the most common. But even if we get 12,000 mile diameter worlds rolled up, that barely gets us into the super-Earth mass range listed above.

And by Traveller World Generation Rules, there will be a greater proportion of atmospheres of A and higher. I don't know if reality will bear that out.

I'd like to know what others think about this and hopefully EDG will weigh in as well. In fact, he probably already has a revised world generation sequence to take this into account. :)

\_/
DED


Quoting DED <>:
> I'd like to know what others think about this and hopefully EDG will
> weigh in as well. In fact, he probably already has a revised world
> generation sequence to take this into account. :)

Rather than figuring out how to generate them, I just want to know
three things:
- How "good" their atmosphere can be? (I.e. how thick/thin?)
- Could such a planet support significant life? (I.e. macroscopic
multicellular life.)
- Could such a planet support human life?

Daryen



On 16 Jul 2009 at 17:52, wrote:

> Quoting DED <>:
> > I'd like to know what others think about this and hopefully EDG will
> > weigh in as well. In fact, he probably already has a revised world
> > generation sequence to take this into account. :)
>
> Rather than figuring out how to generate them, I just want to know
> three things:
> - How "good" their atmosphere can be? (I.e. how thick/thin?)
> - Could such a planet support significant life? (I.e. macroscopic
> multicellular life.)
> - Could such a planet support human life?

The fact that they *aren't* gas giants pretty much guarantees that
they were exposed to really high temps for an extended period to
drive off the volatiles.

That would tend to make them a lot les hospitable to life.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



I actually had similar thoughts after I had heard about 'super-earths' a
little over a year ago and DID have a brief email exchange with EDG. His
expertise in the field pointed out at that time that the locations of known
super earths put them out of range of the habitable zones either too close
or too far. and in any event he pointed out the scientific aspects of
atmosphere. specifically composition rather than density per se. an
atmosphere too rich in O2 wouldn't last long due to combustibility with
other elements. O2 is less common than hydrogen and nitriogen anyway. so an
atmosphere compromised of say %25 O2 at any density provides a combustion
chamber for an atmosphere. even items which normally will not burn at %17 O2
WILL burn at %25. There is an argument that can be made that O2 will make
it's own equilibrium in the long run when it 'burns off'. but that is one
for EDG, not me. still, it would be interesting to have an adventure on a
planet with an O2 content high enough to pose a hazard to a crew even in
Hostile env. vacc suits. and oh yeah, O2 IS a corrosive at high enough
concentrations. another one for EDG or a chemist perhaps.

Perhaps terraforming will be the only way, in the long run, to find another
earthlike atmosphere.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 6:31 PM, <> wrote:

>
>
> On 16 Jul 2009 at 17:52, <>wrote:
>
> > Quoting DED < <>>:
> > > I'd like to know what others think about this and hopefully EDG will
> > > weigh in as well. In fact, he probably already has a revised world
> > > generation sequence to take this into account. :)
> >
> > Rather than figuring out how to generate them, I just want to know
> > three things:
> > - How "good" their atmosphere can be? (I.e. how thick/thin?)
> > - Could such a planet support significant life? (I.e. macroscopic
> > multicellular life.)
> > - Could such a planet support human life?
>
> The fact that they *aren't* gas giants pretty much guarantees that
> they were exposed to really high temps for an extended period to
> drive off the volatiles.
>
> That would tend to make them a lot les hospitable to life.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> shadow at shadowgard dot com
>
>
>

--
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal one hundred megawatt
laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some
people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his
SMITE button for our fire control system"


> Quoting DED:
> > I'd like to know what others think about this and hopefully EDG will
> > weigh in as well. In fact, he probably already has a revised world
> > generation sequence to take this into account. :)
>
> Rather than figuring out how to generate them, I just want to know
> three things:
> - How "good" their atmosphere can be? (I.e. how thick/thin?)
> - Could such a planet support significant life? (I.e. macroscopic
> multicellular life.)
> - Could such a planet support human life?

The fact that they *aren't* gas giants pretty much guarantees that
they were exposed to really high temps for an extended period to
drive off the volatiles.

That would tend to make them a lot les hospitable to life.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com
==================================

Well, I know that in the one article they mention that three of them were quite close to the parent star so, yes, most, if not all, of the volatiles were likely baked off. Though, if they were further out, particularly in the habitable zone, why couldn't some of the volatiles still be left behind? Taking into account that these worlds are approx 4 to 9 times as massive as Earth, couldn't they be of sufficient size to hold onto enough of an atm? Could it be possible that the atmosphere is confined to valleys, thin and low as per Trav atm Type F?

Most of the gas giants that I've heard that were discovered have been listed as multiples of Jupiter's mass. I admit I haven't checked the full listings or consulted any frequency distribution graphs of exoplanet mass so I could be off. Yet we know from our own solar system that 14.5 Earth masses (Uranus) and sufficient distance from the parent star is enough to form a gas giant. Do we know where the dividing line is in terms of mass and distance from a star before a terrestrial world becomes a gas giant?

We know that there are "hot Jupiters," gas giants orbiting so close to their parent starts that Mercury seems like it's out in the bleachers. Even so, these worlds still retain atmospheres, albeit they are being boiled away. So is there an algorithm relating world and parent star mass, distance and atmosphere loss over time?

Putting this all together for Traveller, is there a way that these worlds can be usefully incorporated into Traveller or are they just written off as chthonian planets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonian_planet)? Or, if they're far enough from their parent star, failed "ice giants" (Uranus and Neptune)? Considering their hypothesized frequency in the real galaxy, it might be nice to find a way to incorporate them into Traveller somehow.

\_/
DED


On 17 Jul 2009 at 14:58, DED wrote:

>> The fact that they *aren't* gas giants pretty much guarantees that
>> they were exposed to really high temps for an extended period to
>> drive off the volatiles.

>> That would tend to make them a lot les hospitable to life.

> Well, I know that in the one article they mention that three of them
> were quite close to the parent star so, yes, most,if notall, of the
> volatiles were likely baked off. Though, if they were further out,
> particularly in the habitable zone, why couldn't some of the
> volatiles still be left behind? Taking into account that these worlds
> are approx 4 to 9 times as massive as Earth, couldn't they be of
> sufficient size to hold onto enough of an atm? Could it be possible
> that the atmosphere is confined to valleys, thin and low as per Trav
> atm Type F?

The problem is that they'd hold on to *too much* atmosphere if they
didn't get "baked".

> Most of the gas giants that I've heard that were discovered have been
> listed as multiples of Jupiter's mass. I admit I haven't checked the
> full listings or consulted any frequency distribution graphs of
> exoplanet mass so I could be off.Yet we know from our own solar
> system that 14.5 Earth masses (Uranus)and sufficient distance from
> the parent star is enough to form a gas giant. Do we know where the
> dividing line is in terms of mass and distance from a starbefore a
> terrestrial world becomes a gas giant?

The core of jupiter (the part that's rock & metal, rather than
hydrogen) may mass *less* than 9 times Earth's mass.

Once you hit a certain point, capturing gass and dust from the nebula
the system is forming from *snowballs*.

It's easier farher out, as the solar wind and heating (and UV) from
the star won't drive off hydrogen nor break down hydrogen containing
compounds.

> We know that there are "hot Jupiters,"gas giants orbiting so close
> to their parent starts that Mercury seems like it's out in the
> bleachers. Even so, these worlds still retain atmospheres, albeit
> they are being boiled away. So is there an algorithm relating world
> and parent star mass, distanceand atmosphere loss over time?

The hot jupiters are thought to have formed a lot farhder out and
then "spiralled in" due to friction with the nebula during system
formation.

The "super-earths had to have been able to clect a *lot* of rock &
metal but *not* keep much gas. If they had, they'd be small gas
giants, because that's the way the relative abundance of volatiles
and non-volatiles goes.

So the odds *heavily* favor them having been "baked off".

> Putting this all together for Traveller, is there a way that these
> worlds can be usefullyincorporated into Traveller or are they just
> written off as chthonian planets
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonian_planet)? Or, if they're far
> enough from their parent star, failed "ice giants" (Uranus and
> Neptune)? Considering their hypothesized frequency in the real
> galaxy, it might be nice to find a way to incorporate them into
> Traveller somehow.

Well, my vote is that they aren't going to have useful atmospheres,
because the baking effects mean that even if they had those deep
valleys, the gases would not support life because almost all the
hydrogen (and many other lighter elements like oxygen amnd nitrogen)
will have been driven off.

The one in the article with the "rock vapor" atmosphere ought to be
interesting as if it really does vaporize on sunward and condense on
"nightside" and it is a "oneface" world, then it's going to act like
a planet sized zone refining setup, concentrating the lower
vaporization compounds on nightside and the highder ones on dayside.

Mining dayside would be hell. Nightside likely isn't a lot better.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



On 17 Jul 2009 at 10:46, allen carpenter wrote:

> I actually had similar thoughts after I had heard about 'super-
> earths' a little over a year ago and DID have a brief email exchange
> with EDG. His expertise in the field pointed out at that time that
> the locations of known super earths put them out of range of the
> habitable zones either too close or too far. and in any event he
> pointed out the scientific aspects of atmosphere. specifically
> composition rather than density per se. an atmosphere too rich in O2
> wouldn't last long due to combustibility with other elements. O2 is
> less common than hydrogen and nitriogen anyway. so an atmosphere
> compromised of say %25 O2 at any density provides a combustion
> chamber for an atmosphere. even items which normally will not burn at
> %17 O2 WILL burn at %25. There is an argument that can be made that
> O2 will make it's own equilibrium in the long run when it 'burns
> off'. but that is one for EDG, not me. still, it would be interesting
> to have an adventure on a planet with an O2 content high enough to
> pose a hazard to a crew even in Hostile env. vacc suits. and oh yeah,
> O2 IS a corrosive at high enough concentrations. another one for EDG
> or a chemist perhaps.

You can't *get* significant amounts of O2 in an atmosphere without
"plants" *putting* it there.

And since even wet organic material will burn easily in a high O2
atmosphere, the first lightning strike will cause a major fire if the
O2 level gets that high.

> Perhaps terraforming will be the only way, in the long run, to find
> another earthlike atmosphere.

Or native life...

Likely pre-life atmosphere of a reasonably old planet (as opposed to
a young one that is still reaching equilibrium) is N2, H20, CO2.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com