Thread: Re: Traveller Canon (Was: GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars)

Don--

I've noticed over the past few years that every time you mention looking
at TNE you embed the observation "(because I have to, not because I want
to)." That's kind of your tagline, and all God's chillens gotta have
taglines.

But on this post, you added the remark, "So, the moral is, don't throw
rocks at other Traveller settings. We're all in the same tent, even if we
imagine we're not," which sits kind of disingenuously next to your
tagline.

So are you just a sanctimonious hypocrite or what?

>>> > 3. Where do you put publications like this one on the 'Traveller
>>> Canon
>>> > Totem'? In theory, everything published by SJG is not canon, but...is
>>> > that totally true? I ask because if there are nuggets there that look
>>> > worth mining and incorporating into the CoE setting background, I'd
> feel
>>> > more comfortable doing that if there is consensus on the issue.
>
> Don's 'What is Traveller Canon' Hermeneutic
>
> I'm not speaking for Marc here; I'm drawing from personal experience and
> observation to infer basic facts to assist. If I do speak for Marc online,
> I'll preface the post with "Marc is asking..." or "Marc wants...", or
> something similar. Rob Eaglestone also does this. That doesn't mean Rob or
> I have any special status. If I was writing material for the Spinward
> Marches, I'd probably have Hans Rancke review it before giving it to Marc
> for review, because I trust his knowledge of things I've forgotten.
>
> So, bearing all of that in mind, here's some simple facts about Traveller
> canon:
> 1. It is, at any given moment, what Marc decides.
> 2. Marc reserves the right to change his mind.
> 3. The GURPS Traveller universe (GTU?) and the Official Traveller Universe
> overlap; exactly where they overlap is questionable, depending on who's
> asking the questions.
> 4. The precedent of "mostly recently published source" applies, unless
> that
> newer source is wrong about something; it happens.
> 5. Never, ever assume that current licensees are not canon; rather,
> current
> licensees are always canon, unless they print something wrong.
> 6. Marc decides who is wrong.
> 7. There's no order to the six rules above.
>
> That's pretty much it. On an average day of research for Marc, I'll start
> with Mongoose Traveller (if possible), then GURPS Traveller (including
> IW),
> then TNE (because I have to, not because I want to), then MT, then CT
> materials. Within those materials, the primary publisher is the first
> source, but any licensee could be a secondary source. There are probably
> *golden* sources, but nothing is perfect. Oh, and yes, 1248 goes in there
> somewhere. I wouldn't consider it a primary source, but definitely a
> secondary source. Heck, there's even a couple of Judges Guild items Marc
> mentions from time to time. Admittedly, I haven't dug much out of the
> JG/Group One/Paranoia Press materials for Marc, but I've got them to refer
> to. And even HIWG docs and fanzines COULD be a source if it's an idea that
> Marc likes. For example, I pay very close attention to HIWG docs written
> by
> Clay Bush on subjects. And I've got the TML and Xboat archives setup as
> searchable because they have clues to things I don't remember.
>
> I cannot think of a single source that would be outright rejected with no
> consideration at all. My own timeline isn't a source; it's a list of
> sources. So, the moral is, don't throw rocks at other Traveller settings.
> We're all in the same tent, even if we imagine we're not.
>
> Some things Marc has repeatedly said are NOT canon:
> 1. Anything under 100 tons jumping. 101-ton jump ships work, but 99-ton
> jump anythings simply don't.
> 2. Almost all Aslan art has the hands and paws wrong. I've repeatedly had
> this explained to me, but I still don't picture it properly.
> 3. There are only six major races, and they are all identified. Don't add
> another one.
> 4. DGP's pre-Ancient Primordials/Sparklers. Come on, Joe Fugate only
> briefly mentioned them in his goodbye.
> 5. Light sabers, ala Star Wars. This might be proof that Traveller and
> Star
> Wars have different physics foundations.
> 6. Simultaneous FTL communication is never possible. No combination of
> psionics, science or magic can produce this in the OTU.
>
> Marc Miller's reviewed this several times and actually did approve it.
> This
> probably opens more questions than it answers. A recent discussion brought
> a few additions to the NOT CANON list.
> __________________________________
> "My real e-mail address is owned by someone else..."
>
>

>> So are you just a sanctimonious hypocrite or what?

Actually, yes, I am. And I'd better explain that (although is it
necessary?)...

The first time I posted to this group, I received some private responses
that were... less gentle than yours. So in the time since, I always feel
like posting here is posting where Marc (Miller) and I are not really
wanted. So to try and limit the trouble I cause, I try not to post very
often. But Marc says otherwise, so I read all the posts, and respond where
I feel I might contribute without causing more trouble.

Does that answer your question?
__________________________________
"My real e-mail address is owned by someone else..."

Don's saying, I think, that TNE was a bad idea. My own personal take on Traveller versions, not to get all ranty but I will, is....

Classic Traveller's mechanics were pretty dated and everyone knew it, though the fan base loved the setting and still does. If you want to give me a lecture on why there was nothing wrong with classic Traveller, I can hand you some of my notes for workarounds, or you can simply take a page count of T5, which I'm told was written by classic Traveller fans.

MegaTraveller attempted to update the mechanics (or that is to say, adopted the system developed by DGP), and in that effort it was largely successful. However, it was absolutely plagued with errata and corrigenda, its best publications were outsourced and not GDW property (and we see where that has led...), and few people were actually fans of the setting, which frankly was never satisfactorily justified. Civil war...cool. Civil war that results in multiple factions that spring up out of thin air, not cool. The Rebellion should have been Dulinor versus Lucan, with large parts of the Imperium being neutral and untouched by war. The moment the Solomani invade, the civil war gets wrapped up quickly (either Dulinor or Lucan gets assassinated, perhaps both) and the new conflict gets resolved. The Third Imperium is a bit chaotic in places for a while afterward, but eventually settles down. Players have fun helping to restore order or taking advantage of the lack of proper order for a time. But I digress....

So someone got the bright idea to in-house everything, including the game mechanics (with the idea of creating a house system) and the result was an award winning version of the game that quite possibly, had the resources existed and the money not run out, been the next GURPS. Oh yeah, and the Rebellion was ended, not with a whimper, but with a bang. Insert picture of Charlton Heston pounding the sand on the beach lamenting as we see the Statute of Liberty in the foreground. Cue the Vikings and their odd friends.

TNE should have been the game mechanics behind Traveller until well...it still should be the game mechanics behind Traveller, though on probably it's 3rd revision by now, even with multiple changes in publisher. Selling product by creating new settings and new sourcebooks for new settings, not 3 completely different sets of game mechanics in 4 years (1992-1996) is the way to successfully keep your fan base, or at least ensure that it didn't splinter into hostile factions. But hey, maybe SJG is doing it wrong. *shrug*

But as long as we're talking about least favorite Traveller version, that for me would have to be T4. I said a lot of negative things about T4 (like it didn't deserve to have Marc Miller's name on it) when it came out and 19 years later I still treat it, both as a Traveller player/referee and writer, like toxic waste--smells bad, best to be avoided, not particularly useful, if you tell me I have touch it, I'm getting out some gear to wear and I'm not going to happy about it. That people (no doubt at least a few members of this list) put a lot of time into it to try to get it right, put a brave face on it and talked about it in terms of "getting Fire, Fusion & Steel right", etc. and saw that effort go for nothing was profoundly sad. Really though, the biggest problem with T4 wasn't the deviations from canon, it wasn't the errata and corrigenda though it was extensive (almost MT extensive), nor was it that it was "rushed into publication" as someone once said, it was that it even existed at all.

Everything since has been an attempt to recapture to the "glory of Traveller", however you define that.

I personally don't care.

That someone who is currently responsible for maintaining the setting/game
i enjoy actually reads our little corner of internet seems cool to me.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

So welcome to our small internet basement Don.

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Donald McKinney
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:

>
>
> >> So are you just a sanctimonious hypocrite or what?
>
> Actually, yes, I am. And I'd better explain that (although is it
> necessary?)...
>
> The first time I posted to this group, I received some private responses
> that were... less gentle than yours. So in the time since, I always feel
> like posting here is posting where Marc (Miller) and I are not really
> wanted. So to try and limit the trouble I cause, I try not to post very
> often. But Marc says otherwise, so I read all the posts, and respond
> where I feel I might contribute without causing more trouble.
>
> Does that answer your question?
> __________________________________
> "My real e-mail address is owned by someone else..."
>
>
>
>

--
If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
would have been deserved.

Traveller Canon was repo with the Cannon when GDW went under.

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015, 11:31 John Potter
[Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:

>
>
> I personally don't care.
>
> That someone who is currently responsible for maintaining the setting/game
> i enjoy actually reads our little corner of internet seems cool to me.
>
> Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
>
> So welcome to our small internet basement Don.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Donald McKinney
> [Traveller_TNE] <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> >> So are you just a sanctimonious hypocrite or what?
>>
>> Actually, yes, I am. And I'd better explain that (although is it
>> necessary?)...
>>
>> The first time I posted to this group, I received some private responses
>> that were... less gentle than yours. So in the time since, I always feel
>> like posting here is posting where Marc (Miller) and I are not really
>> wanted. So to try and limit the trouble I cause, I try not to post very
>> often. But Marc says otherwise, so I read all the posts, and respond
>> where I feel I might contribute without causing more trouble.
>>
>> Does that answer your question?
>> __________________________________
>> "My real e-mail address is owned by someone else..."
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If the world was fair then every bad thing that has ever happened to you
> would have been deserved.
>
>