Traveller: The New EraTraveller_TNE Yahoo Groups Archive, 2005–2020

Thread: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: FYI: Magnums... and Shotguns

7 posts.

Peter Gray ·



--- Gerry Harris <> wrote:

> Exactly.  Now I have a clue as to what size shotgun shells really are
> Expect to see a whole new slew of weapons on the aether traveller site.
>
> I do have one sticking point, though.  A mid-range bottle of wine would
> be more in the Cr10 to Cr15 range (if a Cr ~ $1).  If anyone plunks
> down Cr80 for a mid-range wine he's getting taken.  Of course, your
> average adventurer has more money than sense...
>

I put in that amount for the sake of proportion. Volume always seems to be a harder concept for
people to grasp, since any increase in its magnitude is less apparent to the senses than for
length and area. In answer to the question "How much could I fit into a displacement ton" and "How
much would it cost" I used the wine and alcohol section in an old World Almanac to give some kind
of idea. I don't think anyone will actually convert their ship into an interstellar mobile wet bar
however. I do suspect that any economy that suffers from J-lag (the inability of communications to
travel faster than the starship with the longest jump range) the price of luxury commodities could
fluctuate significantly according to local market conditions without the knowledge of the shipper
or speculator, and that could lead to significant markups in the price of such goods (such as
decent imported booze) as insurance against unexpected losses.

One thing I did find interesting while researching RL commercial shipping: the amount of shipping
required to support any significant interstellar economy seems to have been significantly
underestimated by a whole slew of Traveller writers and publications. The ballpark mean average
I've estimated is about 1 displacement ton per 100 persons resident.



           
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Tom ·

--- In , Peter Gray
wrote:
> One thing I did find interesting while researching RL commercial
shipping: the amount of shipping
> required to support any significant interstellar economy seems to
have been significantly
> underestimated by a whole slew of Traveller writers and
publications. The ballpark mean average
> I've estimated is about 1 displacement ton per 100 persons
resident.

I really thing it is just a matter of focus.  Since the game is
focused on the players.  I have always guessed that the trade
mentioned is the "Free" trade - which is to say the trade left over
after all the multi-year contract arrangements have been taken thier
share.

Very large bulk traders ply the spacelanes and traderoutes - they get
most of the cargos.  The the players can only get the leftovers -
made up of overages and odd lots (which accounts for the randomness
in the cargo generation rules.)

I have always said that 90% of the trade is taken by the big boys
with their 10000 ton bulk traders.

Imagine following a week behind one of the big traders.  The players
might get one of these...

The port Broker says "Sorry we aren't intrested in your Cheese.  We
got 5000 tons from the last ship."

The Broker says "BUY? Buy what? Everything on the planet is getting
loaded into that megafreighter over there.  I am going on vacation
for 3 months while the factories build up some inventory."








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Tim Newman ·

--- In , "Tom" wrote:
> --- In , Peter Gray
> wrote:
> > One thing I did find interesting while researching RL commercial
> shipping: the amount of shipping
> > required to support any significant interstellar economy seems to
> have been significantly
> > underestimated by a whole slew of Traveller writers and
> publications. The ballpark mean average
> > I've estimated is about 1 displacement ton per 100 persons
> resident.
>
> I really thing it is just a matter of focus.  Since the game is
> focused on the players.  I have always guessed that the trade
> mentioned is the "Free" trade - which is to say the trade left over
> after all the multi-year contract arrangements have been taken
thier
> share.
>
> Very large bulk traders ply the spacelanes and traderoutes - they
get
> most of the cargos.  The the players can only get the leftovers -
> made up of overages and odd lots (which accounts for the randomness
> in the cargo generation rules.)
>
> I have always said that 90% of the trade is taken by the big boys
> with their 10000 ton bulk traders.
>
> Imagine following a week behind one of the big traders.  The
players
> might get one of these...
>
> The port Broker says "Sorry we aren't intrested in your Cheese.  We
> got 5000 tons from the last ship."
>
> The Broker says "BUY? Buy what? Everything on the planet is getting
> loaded into that megafreighter over there.  I am going on vacation
> for 3 months while the factories build up some inventory."

That's how I think of it as well. The free traders take the small
cargoes that a bigger freighter isn't interested in, or that are
urgent enough for the shipper to pay extra rather than wait for a
megafreighter to come by. They'll also ship the cargoes that
are "differently legal" which a megafreighter captain won't touch
because of the legal repercussions for his/her firm. And they'll ship
cargoes to worlds that are too small and too far off the main trade
routes to be worth visiting for a megafreighter.

Just one question. How often would this 1dT/100 people be needed? Is
that a daily/weekly/yearly average.




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Tim whataname ·

Hmmm, good points all round, this'll require some thought.  "Colonies" back in the 1500-1700s
had what population?  and What volume of shipping?  I've not even a clue how to start finding the answers.  Yet combine that with the 550million tons of "official shipping" in the UK recently and the estimated umpteen billion tons shipped globally.  Me thinks that the mega frieghter at 10k tons is a tad light, maybe it's only a cargo lighter and not the main ship after all? 
It's possible that a mega-freighter would take all or perhaps a large chunk outta the available goods but there was a solo game put out one time for traveller that dealt with trying to make a profit between the stars.  anyone able to recall the name?  If ID'd would it be legal to post it onto the site? 
The ship sizes in Traveller is a limitation here, I could see a frieghter that full might push say 0.1 g and have j4-5-6 capability.  Empty it'd be capable of quite a few g's simply because of the reduced mass however going around deadheading it, would likely see the company in arrears very quickly.  But then that's likely true with any number of shipping companies even today...ever think what it costs to run one of those car carriers from Tokyo to the US?  When in Panama I'd gotten to the point for awhile where I recognized quite a few of the ships that made regular runs.  Car carriers would cycle (west-east and back east-west) about every month or so, those ships aren't slow by any means.
Tim

Tom <> wrote:
--- In , Peter Gray <emptiedboat@y...>
wrote:
> One thing I did find interesting while researching RL commercial
shipping: the amount of shipping
> required to support any significant interstellar economy seems to
have been significantly
> underestimated by a whole slew of Traveller writers and
publications. The ballpark mean average
> I've estimated is about 1 displacement ton per 100 persons
resident.

I really thing it is just a matter of focus.  Since the game is
focused on the players.  I have always guessed that the trade
mentioned is the "Free" trade - which is to say the trade left over
after all the multi-year contract arrangements have been taken thier
share.

Very large bulk traders ply the spacelanes and traderoutes - they get
most of the cargos.  The the players can only get the leftovers -
made up of overages and odd lots (which accounts for the randomness
in the cargo generation rules.)

I have always said that 90% of the trade is taken by the big boys
with their 10000 ton bulk traders.

Imagine following a week behind one of the big traders.  The players
might get one of these...

The port Broker says "Sorry we aren't intrested in your Cheese.  We
got 5000 tons from the last ship."

The Broker says "BUY? Buy what? Everything on the planet is getting
loaded into that megafreighter over there.  I am going on vacation
for 3 months while the factories build up some inventory."






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Peter Gray ·



--- Tim Newman <> wrote:

>
> Just one question. How often would this 1dT/100 people be needed? Is
> that a daily/weekly/yearly average.
>

Its an aggregate flow average for the entire interstellar community. The figure of 1dt/100 people
is the gross average, giving a rough figure of how much interstellar cargo carriage tonnage that
must be built, maintained and is scheduled for regular availability for ANY interstellar polity
during the course of any discrete trade period. Hence the Commonwealth of Deneb has a population
in excess of 2 trillion persons and aliens, and requires about 20 billion tons of shipping
capacity at any given instant. How this amount is broken down into smaller displacements, how many
hulls this yields, how that cargo space is allocated in terms of types of cargo (H2 haulers and
big bulk carriers are significantly different from container freight) how frequently it is in the
maintenance yard, and the ownership structure depends largely upon local conditions.

There are two reasons why I prefer doing things this way: it reflects the fact that trade
fluctuates seasonally (in particular regarding to raw materials trade), and because it forces me
to actually detail the kinds of industries and consumer culture that exists upon an individual
world or, in the case of my campaign, the member federations of the Commonwealth. The figure of
1dt/100 persons would not apply to every world at every time. For example an agricultural world
would need a significant number of massive bulk carriers for its harvest, but probably wouldn't
need them except for a few times per year. An active asteroid belt on the other hand would require
them year round, albeit fewer at a time given the steady nature of mining. High population worlds
require the most in terms of shipping, but because significant differences exist between a high
population world with a atmosphere/hydrosphere/biosphere and one that doesn't, and a significant
difference between a highly advanced stellar world and one that barely scrapes along at early 20th
century industrial technology, differences in degree must be considered. Low population worlds
would probably receive a regular mail run and a few "erratics", small free traders engaged in some
kind of speculative trade; otherwise these worlds are extremely mediocre.

I will agree with you on this, the kind of trade detailed in the rulebooks probably represents
"float" trade that is otherwise available to independent contractors and other bottom feeding
firms. Such trade probably comes with some hefty strings attached, however.


           
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Tom ·

--- In , Tim whataname
wrote:
>Me thinks that the mega frieghter at 10k tons is a tad light, maybe
it's only a cargo lighter and not the main ship after all? 

Actually, yes a lighter - it carries cargo/passengers and jump fuel. 
The JumpShip never appoaches the planet(s).  Once in-system the
lighters (up to 10 of them) detatch and head to any trade ports.  
They hit all the best spots in the system.  In the mean-time the full
lighters that have been loading for the past week are headed out to
the Jumpship.  So at any given time there is one JumpShip and up to
20 lighters in system.  The JumpShips rarely stay in-system for more
that a day - just long enough to do any j-drive repairs and dock the
outbound lighters.

This system really only makes sense if the volume of trade is high
enough.







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Tim whataname ·

Thoughts on Agri world trade,
Unless the world is uniformly non seasonal and/or has an unusual crop the harvest season may peak here and there in the course of a "year" but would overall be almost as steady as mining. 
The reason being northern crops planting and harvesting in temperate zone would allow 1-2 harvests a season, sub-tropical and tropical would have 3-4 harvests a season and those harvests may be staggered over time due to the nature of the growing cycle for the crops.  IE wheat one harvest in temperate zones, winter wheat gets harvested earlier, barley maybe 2 harvests... lettuce, bannanas?  etc etc etc.  
Further if the crop requires processing such as corn oil, soybean oil, flour, etc that is likely to occur on the Agri world both for simplicity and cost and the finished product would be shipped at a different time than at harvest. 
Similar deal for cattle of different kinds.
Also, farmers have these things called Silos where they store the grain for up to  a year depending on market conditions.  However, during bumper crop years, the capacity to store under shelter is often over whelmed and the crops are stored in the open.  In that case they try to sell that portion first.   If the farmer can't make a profit (paying for labor, fuel, fertilizer, herbicide, pesticide storage and shipping) they're known to spread the offending crop over the fields to fertilize the next years crop.
Tim

Peter Gray <> wrote:


--- Tim Newman <> wrote:

>
> Just one question. How often would this 1dT/100 people be needed? Is
> that a daily/weekly/yearly average.
>

Its an aggregate flow average for the entire interstellar community. The figure of 1dt/100 people
is the gross average, giving a rough figure of how much interstellar cargo carriage tonnage that
must be built, maintained and is scheduled for regular availability for ANY interstellar polity
during the course of any discrete trade period. Hence the Commonwealth of Deneb has a population
in excess of 2 trillion persons and aliens, and requires about 20 billion tons of shipping
capacity at any given instant. How this amount is broken down into smaller displacements, how many
hulls this yields, how that cargo space is allocated in terms of types of cargo (H2 haulers and
big bulk carriers are significantly different from container freight) how frequently it is in the
maintenance yard, and the ownership structure depends largely upon local conditions.

There are two reasons why I prefer doing things this way: it reflects the fact that trade
fluctuates seasonally (in particular regarding to raw materials trade), and because it forces me
to actually detail the kinds of industries and consumer culture that exists upon an individual
world or, in the case of my campaign, the member federations of the Commonwealth. The figure of
1dt/100 persons would not apply to every world at every time. For example an agricultural world
would need a significant number of massive bulk carriers for its harvest, but probably wouldn't
need them except for a few times per year. An active asteroid belt on the other hand would require
them year round, albeit fewer at a time given the steady nature of mining. High population worlds
require the most in terms of shipping, but because significant differences exist between a high
population world with a atmosphere/hydrosphere/biosphere and one that doesn't, and a significant
difference between a highly advanced stellar world and one that barely scrapes along at early 20th
century industrial technology, differences in degree must be considered. Low population worlds
would probably receive a regular mail run and a few "erratics", small free traders engaged in some
kind of speculative trade; otherwise these worlds are extremely mediocre.

I will agree with you on this, the kind of trade detailed in the rulebooks probably represents
"float" trade that is otherwise available to independent contractors and other bottom feeding
firms. Such trade probably comes with some hefty strings attached, however.


           
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