I love the supranormal theory entries on J-space in RSB.
More than just fine control, microgravity is counter intuitive to most
dirtyfeet. Space-born reared in microgravity would probably have the
opposite offsets. Course, outside of the low G worlds traveller doesn't
seem to make much note of such in general.
I apply similar skill offsets to most physical activity, as well as psi.
Even movement outside of a CG environment. Not enough space rpgs take
microgravity (or radiation or even atmosphere beyond basic pressure and
toxicity) in account at all, mostly doing the Trek "class M" planet of the
week. I mostly adapted rules off the Cyberpunk 2020 Deep Space and made it
a point to periodically revisit (CG on the fritz, EVA repairs for numerous
systems, deep space cold recoveries, etc). Fancy hi tech were appreciated
conveniences or luxuries, depending on TL.
- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Feb 28, 2014 10:12 AM, <> wrote:
>
>
> There is also the fact, as I'm sure some of you are preparing to point
> out, that the "relative stationary" of a pencil on Earth/Regina is not
> merely notional, but also real, as all objects have almost infinite forces
> acting on them at a given time. For my previous yammer I was trying to
> think of an extreme, the pencil taken in theoretical isolation.
>
> The reason for that is because the TNE-asserted J+ space non-Newtonian
> force acts "in isolation" when it impinges on real space. The reason TNE
> says this is so is because Traveller established (more accurately, failed
> to establish the contrary--while absence of evidence is not evidence of
> absence, I had to make a call on which it was) that there is no evidence
> that the body of the Psi is generating energy to perform the work of TK.
> If it were, this should be measurable and have other effects. For example,
> Psis could be detected by the energy they were generating to perform these
> functions. Where in your body are these effects generated? Does the
> standard human physiology support this? How? Psis don't have special
> organs, or thicker skulls to protect against the heat being generated in
> their brains when they TK something. Therefore, that stuff takes place
> entirely outside the Psi, the psi merely accesses/directs that force. And
> the conservation of energy compensations take place outside of the Psi,
> outside of "real space" in J+ space.
>
> Is this all hooey? Duh. Traveller is an SF game which appropriated all
> kinds of SF/fantasy tropes, which singly or collectively are hooey. But
> having chosen our hooey, we try to figure out interesting ways to explain
> how they internally work, since the books say they do.
>
> > Only the wreckage would move. The TK force is acting directly on it from
> > out of J+ space without any inertial linkage to the psi-guy. If what
> > you're getting at is a TK analogy to the way the two bodies would be
> > pulled toward each other (equal and opposite reactions) if they were
> > connected by a string, that would not work. However, the psi could pull
> > the wreckage toward him, hit himself with it, and some of that momentum
> > would be imparted to him in the collision through normal collision
> > physics. That is already VERY non-Newtonian if that is your intent.
> >
> > That's the way it would work in the TNE rules, but you can do what you
> > want in your universe to make it interesting. I don't remember what the
> > rules said about telekinesing yourself (flying), but it was probably
> > something like some "field of yourselfness" saying you couldn't do it.
> >
> > I like Uxi's suggestion about giving penalties to accuracy in
> > really-really-really-small G due to fineness of control compared to
> > working in a g-field which tends to stabilize you (but more on how it's
> > really the same in micro-G below).
> >
> > HOWEVER, here is where it gets interesting/stupid. I'll unpack "stupid"
> > first.
> >
> > Traveller psi powers took your typical "magickal" (Gygax spelling)
> > "mental" powers from popular culture and pulled them in as-is. But a
> > pencil sitting on a table on Regina is not actually "stationary." It's
> > moving at an ungodly absolute vector, being pulled toward the center of
> > Regina + rotational vector of Regina's surface + orbital vector of Regina
> > around (I don't remember name of) star + rotational vector of (name of)
> > star around center of Milky Way + vector of Milky Way away from the Big
> > Bang. The fact that Traveller grandfathered in the fantasy of classic
> > magickal TK means that this physics is not a problem, it is abstracted
> > down to/calculated on the Psi's "stationary" relationship to the object
> > being TKed. Does this mean that the psi is actually controlling forces
> > scaled to to the actual ungodly vector? Or somehow due to the magic of
> > sloppy thinking about the actual physics embedded in taking over the
> > classic magickal model does that stuff all cancel out due to the supposed
> > "stationariness" of the TK actor and TK object relative to each other? On
> > the one hand it doesn't matter, because CT said it existed, so there you
> > have it, it must work. On the other, how does the classic TK on Earth's
> > surface (from where it was photocopied) translate into TK in micro-G?
> >
> > So, back to where you can make it "interesting." If the psi is
> > manipulating forces on the "ungodly vector" scale, then arguably he's got
> > a lot more power at his disposal (the only reason I can apply a small
> > number of Newtons to a pencil is because I am leveraging my vector
> towards
> > Earth's center among others, which is why "picking up" a pencil in orbit
> > creates the problems felt almost disastrously by Gene Cernan, Michael
> > Collins, Dick Gordon, et al.). Which is good, because if he and the
> > wreckage are in low Earth orbit, their orbital vector is ~8 km/sec for
> > back-of-the-e-mail calculations (which you may be aware is the gaping
> plot
> > hole at the center of "Gravity"--an MMU cannot generate enough force to
> > appreciably bend a LEO vector--not counting Earth around Sol, Sol around
> > Milky Way, Milky Way into the void, more on that in a moment). This might
> > allow you as Ref to rule, "you try to apply some force to the thing, but
> > nothing happens" because of the "invisible" size of the orbital vector.
> > HOWEVER again, since you can do it on Regina's surface you are
> surmounting
> > those absolute vectors because the psi force has nothing to do with your
> > inertial link to the object. AND from a practical game standpoint, the
> Ref
> > is NOT going to say, "okay, that's it for tonight, come back next week
> > when I've calculated the vectors." So, from a practical and
> > internal-handwavium-"CT-said-it-was-possible-so-we-have-to-make-it-work"
> > standpoint, the TK process must have an internal normalizing effect,
> which
> > means that if the TKing Psi and the TK target are both in the same "local
> > frame of reference," i.e., "semi-stationary compared to each other"
> > (whether that is on the surface of Earth/Regina, in the galley of a
> moving
> > starship, or in a common orbit), the force calculated to move an object
> is
> > only related to each other, and the other vectors outside of their "local
> > frame of reference" wash out, with the understanding that there is no
> > equal-and-opposite reaction on the TKing psi.
> >
> > I will lay money that GURPS already has an approach to this which is
> > perfectly useful. The only thing to keep in mind is that if you wish to
> be
> > a TNE purist, the psi force does not come from any physical manifestation
> > between the body of the Psi and the body being TKed, so no Newtonian
> > equal-and-opposite-reaction. If you want to think about why this is, you
> > must start from clairvoyance and clairaudience as described in CT and
> work
> > backwards from there. You might draw different conclusions/make different
> > decisions than TNE did, but TNE did make a significant decision.
> >
> > Food for thought. Or, after all this typing, maybe "Junk Food" for
> > thought. This was a better answer with only the first paragraph by
> itself,
> > but I couldn't help myself.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> I have a scenario in mind to throw at my players in the future, however
> > in
> >> pondering the variables that players are so expert at inventing, I ran
> > in
> >> to a mental roadblock!
> >> Basically, the scenario involves the need to be EVA in a barely operable
> > suit, and as events transpire, the suit thrusters die. *(Yes, Gravity was
> >> a
> >> small inspiration, though I have not yet seen the movie) One of the
> > characters has telekinesis. How can this be used to manipulate himself or
> >> objects in zero gravity? I suspect the laws of conservation of
> >> energy momentum may not work as envisioned by Newton 8-) example with
> > round
> >> numbers. player in vacc weighs 100 Kg, tried to 'pull' a 10kg piece of
> > wreckage with his TK in order to develop momentum for a push to another
> > more massive object. will player and object close at velocities relative
> > to
> >> each others mass? will only the wreckage move? or only the player? Or in
> > a
> >> true anti newtonian wrench, is TK dependant on some form of gravity as a
> > medium?
> >> In keeping with as much of a "hard science" flavor as an RPG game can
> > handle, I want the scenario to play out with as much believability as
> > possible, in order to minimize the handwavium affect.
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> > for
> >> it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and
> > their
> >> kids pay for it."
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
More than just fine control, microgravity is counter intuitive to most
dirtyfeet. Space-born reared in microgravity would probably have the
opposite offsets. Course, outside of the low G worlds traveller doesn't
seem to make much note of such in general.
I apply similar skill offsets to most physical activity, as well as psi.
Even movement outside of a CG environment. Not enough space rpgs take
microgravity (or radiation or even atmosphere beyond basic pressure and
toxicity) in account at all, mostly doing the Trek "class M" planet of the
week. I mostly adapted rules off the Cyberpunk 2020 Deep Space and made it
a point to periodically revisit (CG on the fritz, EVA repairs for numerous
systems, deep space cold recoveries, etc). Fancy hi tech were appreciated
conveniences or luxuries, depending on TL.
- Sent from my SM-N900T
On Feb 28, 2014 10:12 AM, <> wrote:
>
>
> There is also the fact, as I'm sure some of you are preparing to point
> out, that the "relative stationary" of a pencil on Earth/Regina is not
> merely notional, but also real, as all objects have almost infinite forces
> acting on them at a given time. For my previous yammer I was trying to
> think of an extreme, the pencil taken in theoretical isolation.
>
> The reason for that is because the TNE-asserted J+ space non-Newtonian
> force acts "in isolation" when it impinges on real space. The reason TNE
> says this is so is because Traveller established (more accurately, failed
> to establish the contrary--while absence of evidence is not evidence of
> absence, I had to make a call on which it was) that there is no evidence
> that the body of the Psi is generating energy to perform the work of TK.
> If it were, this should be measurable and have other effects. For example,
> Psis could be detected by the energy they were generating to perform these
> functions. Where in your body are these effects generated? Does the
> standard human physiology support this? How? Psis don't have special
> organs, or thicker skulls to protect against the heat being generated in
> their brains when they TK something. Therefore, that stuff takes place
> entirely outside the Psi, the psi merely accesses/directs that force. And
> the conservation of energy compensations take place outside of the Psi,
> outside of "real space" in J+ space.
>
> Is this all hooey? Duh. Traveller is an SF game which appropriated all
> kinds of SF/fantasy tropes, which singly or collectively are hooey. But
> having chosen our hooey, we try to figure out interesting ways to explain
> how they internally work, since the books say they do.
>
> > Only the wreckage would move. The TK force is acting directly on it from
> > out of J+ space without any inertial linkage to the psi-guy. If what
> > you're getting at is a TK analogy to the way the two bodies would be
> > pulled toward each other (equal and opposite reactions) if they were
> > connected by a string, that would not work. However, the psi could pull
> > the wreckage toward him, hit himself with it, and some of that momentum
> > would be imparted to him in the collision through normal collision
> > physics. That is already VERY non-Newtonian if that is your intent.
> >
> > That's the way it would work in the TNE rules, but you can do what you
> > want in your universe to make it interesting. I don't remember what the
> > rules said about telekinesing yourself (flying), but it was probably
> > something like some "field of yourselfness" saying you couldn't do it.
> >
> > I like Uxi's suggestion about giving penalties to accuracy in
> > really-really-really-small G due to fineness of control compared to
> > working in a g-field which tends to stabilize you (but more on how it's
> > really the same in micro-G below).
> >
> > HOWEVER, here is where it gets interesting/stupid. I'll unpack "stupid"
> > first.
> >
> > Traveller psi powers took your typical "magickal" (Gygax spelling)
> > "mental" powers from popular culture and pulled them in as-is. But a
> > pencil sitting on a table on Regina is not actually "stationary." It's
> > moving at an ungodly absolute vector, being pulled toward the center of
> > Regina + rotational vector of Regina's surface + orbital vector of Regina
> > around (I don't remember name of) star + rotational vector of (name of)
> > star around center of Milky Way + vector of Milky Way away from the Big
> > Bang. The fact that Traveller grandfathered in the fantasy of classic
> > magickal TK means that this physics is not a problem, it is abstracted
> > down to/calculated on the Psi's "stationary" relationship to the object
> > being TKed. Does this mean that the psi is actually controlling forces
> > scaled to to the actual ungodly vector? Or somehow due to the magic of
> > sloppy thinking about the actual physics embedded in taking over the
> > classic magickal model does that stuff all cancel out due to the supposed
> > "stationariness" of the TK actor and TK object relative to each other? On
> > the one hand it doesn't matter, because CT said it existed, so there you
> > have it, it must work. On the other, how does the classic TK on Earth's
> > surface (from where it was photocopied) translate into TK in micro-G?
> >
> > So, back to where you can make it "interesting." If the psi is
> > manipulating forces on the "ungodly vector" scale, then arguably he's got
> > a lot more power at his disposal (the only reason I can apply a small
> > number of Newtons to a pencil is because I am leveraging my vector
> towards
> > Earth's center among others, which is why "picking up" a pencil in orbit
> > creates the problems felt almost disastrously by Gene Cernan, Michael
> > Collins, Dick Gordon, et al.). Which is good, because if he and the
> > wreckage are in low Earth orbit, their orbital vector is ~8 km/sec for
> > back-of-the-e-mail calculations (which you may be aware is the gaping
> plot
> > hole at the center of "Gravity"--an MMU cannot generate enough force to
> > appreciably bend a LEO vector--not counting Earth around Sol, Sol around
> > Milky Way, Milky Way into the void, more on that in a moment). This might
> > allow you as Ref to rule, "you try to apply some force to the thing, but
> > nothing happens" because of the "invisible" size of the orbital vector.
> > HOWEVER again, since you can do it on Regina's surface you are
> surmounting
> > those absolute vectors because the psi force has nothing to do with your
> > inertial link to the object. AND from a practical game standpoint, the
> Ref
> > is NOT going to say, "okay, that's it for tonight, come back next week
> > when I've calculated the vectors." So, from a practical and
> > internal-handwavium-"CT-said-it-was-possible-so-we-have-to-make-it-work"
> > standpoint, the TK process must have an internal normalizing effect,
> which
> > means that if the TKing Psi and the TK target are both in the same "local
> > frame of reference," i.e., "semi-stationary compared to each other"
> > (whether that is on the surface of Earth/Regina, in the galley of a
> moving
> > starship, or in a common orbit), the force calculated to move an object
> is
> > only related to each other, and the other vectors outside of their "local
> > frame of reference" wash out, with the understanding that there is no
> > equal-and-opposite reaction on the TKing psi.
> >
> > I will lay money that GURPS already has an approach to this which is
> > perfectly useful. The only thing to keep in mind is that if you wish to
> be
> > a TNE purist, the psi force does not come from any physical manifestation
> > between the body of the Psi and the body being TKed, so no Newtonian
> > equal-and-opposite-reaction. If you want to think about why this is, you
> > must start from clairvoyance and clairaudience as described in CT and
> work
> > backwards from there. You might draw different conclusions/make different
> > decisions than TNE did, but TNE did make a significant decision.
> >
> > Food for thought. Or, after all this typing, maybe "Junk Food" for
> > thought. This was a better answer with only the first paragraph by
> itself,
> > but I couldn't help myself.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> I have a scenario in mind to throw at my players in the future, however
> > in
> >> pondering the variables that players are so expert at inventing, I ran
> > in
> >> to a mental roadblock!
> >> Basically, the scenario involves the need to be EVA in a barely operable
> > suit, and as events transpire, the suit thrusters die. *(Yes, Gravity was
> >> a
> >> small inspiration, though I have not yet seen the movie) One of the
> > characters has telekinesis. How can this be used to manipulate himself or
> >> objects in zero gravity? I suspect the laws of conservation of
> >> energy momentum may not work as envisioned by Newton 8-) example with
> > round
> >> numbers. player in vacc weighs 100 Kg, tried to 'pull' a 10kg piece of
> > wreckage with his TK in order to develop momentum for a push to another
> > more massive object. will player and object close at velocities relative
> > to
> >> each others mass? will only the wreckage move? or only the player? Or in
> > a
> >> true anti newtonian wrench, is TK dependant on some form of gravity as a
> > medium?
> >> In keeping with as much of a "hard science" flavor as an RPG game can
> > handle, I want the scenario to play out with as much believability as
> > possible, in order to minimize the handwavium affect.
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay
> > for
> >> it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want and
> > their
> >> kids pay for it."
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>