Gary
>> It is my verbiage, though I don't claim any official connection beyond
that
>> of a layperson interested in history the perspective it gives in
> contemplating faith and the modern world. There are a few positive
comments in the thread at COTI and I got a few PM's also expressing
interest. Some from definitely non-theist perspectives but expressing
appreciation for an angle that they normally didn't use at all and
provided
>> good data mining material. Most of the rest hasn't been shared widely.
Yes, but a very well-informed layperson. So are you RC or Eastern
Orthodox? There's a lot of Eastern/Greek Orthodox language in there which
I am only very peripherally familiar with.
So, no one saying, "Gene Roddenberry proved that there will be no religion
in the future?"
>> The RC Naval campaign fizzled out well before they got close to
>> launching
>> to Alpha Leonis, but I did a bunch of prep (as can be seen). I spent
way
>> too much time doing individual Grand Masters of the Knights of St
George
>> in
>> eras I never had any intention of starting a campaign in and their
heraldry
>> project spun into it's own thing, first doing it by hand then on
various
> software formats. Most of it's lost by the New Era and would likely
have
>> never reached the players except for maybe a summary list, but I had
fun
> modeling it off of the Templars and Hospitallers
The military orders are a popular entry point for just about anyone.
Especially St. George, the patron saint of armor and the only saint
portrayed as fighting mounted.
>> It's not all progressive amity, though. Criminal Justice code based on
the
>> 7 Deadly Sins isn't going to be popular with many in the modern
> relativist
>> world, or a Church and Knighthood bound by Canon instead of Civil Law.
I didn't see that stuff in there, but admittedly skimmed some. However,
the mention of their commitment to democracy, and preventing persecution
of minorities, atheists and agnostics is pretty far from the portrayal
most people would create of a church given that much rope to play with.
Could something that progressive and open remain that unchanged for so
long?
You may be doing this, but do you have the church pulling in local
people's/races' hallowed/legendary/sanctified figures into the ranks of
the saints? This was something that the (Roman) Catholic church did very
successfully, and gave us other "military" saints like St. Barbara. This
is much like the Imperial Romans did when they rolled into a town, looked
at the local gods, and said, "Hey, we know them. Those are Apollo and
Athena, you just know them by one of their other names. So you're already
one of us! Huzzah!" Hence a shrewd meaning of the "Roman" in "Roman
Catholic"
>> Or
>> the perils of Excommunication in such a society.
My pastor in Maryland (Bastien) used to like to threaten to excommunicate
my dad. It's fun to be in a liturgical church where such terms have
meaning.
Some of it intended
> out
>> of practical interpretation and some for drama. Of course, man being
> man
>> there will be some of those with negative traits and the oddball
villain
>> or
>> two as a 'man of the cloth' cynically using his religion as a means
> rather
>> than an end.
To the extent that so many political leaders are described as being
members of the church I would assume that like today that is as much the
rule as the exception.
>> The personality of the AZH captured by the Knights of St George and
> later
>> inhabited by one of Sandman's progeny was going to be most entertaining
> since I had it with a mostly intact theological history database at it's
disposal and would tend to debate things like Arius and Trinity or the
Gregorian vs Julian Calendars, etc.
I really like that idea.
>>> 2. I note at the (Second) Council of Nicea in 2054 that US Episcopals
> don't join. Is that a result of the recent split with the Anglicans, so
is
>>> it based on current events?
>> No, most of the concept I did in the late 90's and was hypothetical on
> the
>> ecumenical movement as it was then. I think Episcopalians having women
> priests was still relatively a big deal.
What about your church in Turin? Male and female priests yet? There's a
real tension in SF between retaining ancestral strictures to make them
more vivid and allowing change to show the passage of time.
I did update some of it as I was
>> presenting to COTI (mostly stuff like the disintegration of the EU,
> etc),
>> but that wasn't a part of it. Mostly I was thinking that the whole
> bunch
>> wouldn't go over in one mass and there would either be a reformist or
> reactionary group that refused to bend to the "Papist apostasy". I had
ideas for one of the Orthodox churches refusing to go along, as well,
though I never pinned down which one or why (leaning on Russian
> Orthodox,
>> mostly so there could still be some claims of Third Rome, etc).
>>> 3. It is really interesting what you are doing in a game which
historically has not addressed religion much.
>> I definitely thought it was lacking, but it's obviously an area almost
> any
>> company would be hesitant to get into much detail on since it's so very
> easy to offend SOMEONE and dig a big PR hole, if not very serious nut
cases.
Yeah, I can't see our having gone there, at least not with clearly
identified current churches. (I made a "CommSent" church in Ranger, its
priest semi-named after my favorite Catholic priest, Father Amerigo
DiNorcia.) But watching someone else play with it in their personal
universe is certainly intriguing.
>> I also wanted to bring a different and more serious element to the
> rather
>> cartoonishly simplistic Solomani Confederation. DGP showed the
Booteans
>> as
>> one alternative, but the Nazis still seemed way too predominant (though
> it
>> didn't annoy me as much as the cliches of the French Nth Republic -
> Reformed, 2nd Edition, the Latino Banana Republic, corrupt eastern bloc
Europeans, Apartheid in Space, etc. They couldn't all be a bunch of
nincompoop stereotypes could they?
Idunno, depends upon your opinion of humanity. After the day I've had
today, yeah, maybe they could.
>>> 4. What happens to the Lutherans? Surely you know better than to lump
> us
>>> in with the rest of the Protestants.
>> Sure enough. After the Anglicans, I see the Lutherans as the next
> closest
>> theologically,
I quibble with that a little because of the nature of the origin of the
Anglicans as a change in management so the king could change his woman and
get England out from under Italian thumbs. And "via media" was a PR
invention by Anglicans themselves. Aside from English hymns vs. German
hymns you can hardly slip a piece of paper between the Anglicans and
Lutherans, and we're in full communion and with joint congregations. Along
with the RC we are the sacramental churches with more in common with each
other than most of the other protestants. Real presence, infant baptism,
ONE baptism.
> but there are some pretty big theological bullets,almost
> too big to smooth over beyond relatively simple Roman primacy and
calendar
>> details like the Orthodox would face. I wouldn't expect either the
bulk
>> of
>> the self respecting Lutherans to bend on any more than I expect the
Rock
>> of
>> St Peter's. I would have had relations cordial following Nicea 2054 but
had
>> ideas for at least one world in the Consolidation with a rich Lutheran
> heritage, though refusing to implement a Universal-Orthodox hierarchy,
much
>> less bend to it, as a matter of principle. I might not have my finger
> on
>> the pulse of Lutheran ecumenism enough to be accurately capture that,
> though so maybe you can provide a better perspective on how they would
have
>> reacted to Vilani contact, the Council itself, and which theological
fences
>> would be more willing to compromise on than others, if not also the
> launch
>> of Caelis Torino and the establishment of the TCA, Rule of Man, Turin
> Consolidation, Solomani Movement, etc.
Yikes. That is way too big of a homework assignment to think of how they'd
respond to all of those in-game events. However, as far as American
Lutherans go, the ELCA would go a great distance toward unity with the RC,
Anglicans and Reformed movements, and already has. Missouri Synod and
Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, however, don't even like to be in the same room
with ELCA. Can't have their pictures taken with them in the paper. And
then their are the two new lutheran churches that splintered off in the
last year.
The Lutherans and RC have already agreed on justification, which was what
sparked off Brother Martin to begin with. We agree on the priesthood of
all believers. Most of the differences in that area were in
emphasis/tradition, not actual theology or doctrine. That and lazy
prejudice and habit. There is a strong will in the ELCA for real unity. I
can walk into any RC, Ang, or Lutheran church and know the order of
worship and all the words to all of the liturgy (English, not Latin). I
would think you could with not too far a stretch imagine a Lutheran Rite,
or perhaps Melancthonian Rite in your church. A number of Lutheran
churches are still in, or have gotten back into the Apostolic Succession,
so are considered as Catholics by not just themselves, but by some
Catholic standards.
Would Lutherans take back the other five sacraments? Would they pray to
saints? Venerate Mary? Could those things become adiaphora? Although
doctrinal stuff seems like it would be the biggest obstacle, "feel" stuff
like the RC approach to tradition would loom large. But the biggest thing
would probably be the obvious thing, Primacy of the Pope and Papal
Infallibility. But a lot of Lutherans would want to find a way to make it
work. Maybe if the Pope took the first step.
Speaking of Papal Infallibility, how did the RC and Orthodox settle that
in your Ortho-Catholic church?
>> I do tend towards optimism, though it's not all roses. Partially I was
> trying to emulate medieval Christendom but with a modern humanist
approach
>> while trying to keep enough room for adventure and theology for those
> inclined. The ecclesiastical language is essential to that spirit as
well
>> as the general symbology permeating even lay life.
Absolutely. Narthex vs. lobby, Sanctuary vs. auditorium, Sexton vs.
Janitor, Pulpit vs. podium, Purificator vs. napkin, Verger instead of
bouncer.
>> I think a losing war against the Vilani (as it was hypothesized for the
> launch of Caelis Torino) would inspire some open minded theology, as
well.
>> Catholic-Orthodox... cordiality, if not full reunion seems inevitable.
The
>> huge differences of the past are relatively trivial today. I've
studied
> the early history of Christianity at some length, particularly the early
heresies and how the western and eastern Church grew and dealt with them.
>> The whole idea of the culmination of the ecumenical movement stemmed
> from
>> the ideal scenario and counterpoint to the nasty drama between
Patriarch
> Michael Kerularios and Cardinal Humbert and the reunion of the two
oldest
>> branches of Christianity. Mostly it started from some of my reading of
the
>> Latin/Greek Schism, so it was no coincidence I put the reunion 1000
> years
>> later. It might be TOO coincidental but it does seem an obvious date
> to
>> try to do something symbolic on, as well.
>> Still, it's almost hilarious to see the differences that Photius
> condemned
>> as anathema the Latins for things as petty as not beginning Lent until
> Ash
>> Wednesday instead of 3 days earlier, as well as the classic staples of
> married clergy and filioque (which is probably too subtle for most
non-religious to appreciate).
However, another piece of the tension in your church in Traveller is that
digging in on "petty" differences like that comes from people feeling very
strongly about them, and feeling strongly about things correlates with
surviving as a continuous movement for a long time. In order to keep a
movement together, you can't relax on too many things.
Herbert's OC Bible was interesting, and I think a nice example of how
things staying the same, combined with changing, made for a nice SF feel.
>> I don't expect many Protestants or modern Evangelicals to join the
> party,
>> though, without backtracking on relatively core theology that the
Catholics
>> and Orthodox can't bend on either.
The word "Protestant" hardly means anything, except they signed a letter
in 1529, back before most of the denominations were invented...usually in
a huff by people stomping out. Since then all it means is "Anybody who's
not RC or Orthodox," and the distance between the sacramental churches is
much less than the breadth across "Protestantism" as a whole.
Baptism, re-baptism, your baptism wasn't as real as my rebaptism,
sacrament vs. ordinance, congregationalism vs. hierarchy, too many things
to disagree on.
>>> > I Love that Dulinor quote. Hints at a depth and humanity to an
>>> otherwise
>>> undeveloped character known (and almost universally reviled) only for
> what he did, not why.
>>> Thanks. I wanted to give him a bit of a grace note, because there had
>
>> I was going to blame some of it on the Virasin. :) The notes for the
> Brotherhood of SenWenclus have a few refences to theological debate and
Apologetics defending the Arkgallop of Illelish against the claims of the
>> Dlan Virasin
And your final observation here maybe gets at why intrigues me about your
Traveller church. When Traveller says that Dulinor is a Virasin, I think,
"okay, makes sense, whatever they are." But when you say, "Cleon was a
(Latin) Catholic," I go, "huh? That doesn't make sense." So why why does a
made-up faith for Dulinor or Herbert's OC Bible make more sense in that
part of my brain than faiths I have already met, which have lasted for
2000 years, lasting another 3700? I find that question interesting. And I
like the time and thought you've put into this. We use the phrase so much
that we've got at acronym, "IMTU," but I'm thinking that a lot of the
time, as this list shows, what's really more interesting than what's IMTU
is what's in his Traveller Universe, and his, and his. Gary's, Evyn's,
John's, all you guys. Good stuff.
Dave
>> It is my verbiage, though I don't claim any official connection beyond
that
>> of a layperson interested in history the perspective it gives in
> contemplating faith and the modern world. There are a few positive
comments in the thread at COTI and I got a few PM's also expressing
interest. Some from definitely non-theist perspectives but expressing
appreciation for an angle that they normally didn't use at all and
provided
>> good data mining material. Most of the rest hasn't been shared widely.
Yes, but a very well-informed layperson. So are you RC or Eastern
Orthodox? There's a lot of Eastern/Greek Orthodox language in there which
I am only very peripherally familiar with.
So, no one saying, "Gene Roddenberry proved that there will be no religion
in the future?"
>> The RC Naval campaign fizzled out well before they got close to
>> launching
>> to Alpha Leonis, but I did a bunch of prep (as can be seen). I spent
way
>> too much time doing individual Grand Masters of the Knights of St
George
>> in
>> eras I never had any intention of starting a campaign in and their
heraldry
>> project spun into it's own thing, first doing it by hand then on
various
> software formats. Most of it's lost by the New Era and would likely
have
>> never reached the players except for maybe a summary list, but I had
fun
> modeling it off of the Templars and Hospitallers
The military orders are a popular entry point for just about anyone.
Especially St. George, the patron saint of armor and the only saint
portrayed as fighting mounted.
>> It's not all progressive amity, though. Criminal Justice code based on
the
>> 7 Deadly Sins isn't going to be popular with many in the modern
> relativist
>> world, or a Church and Knighthood bound by Canon instead of Civil Law.
I didn't see that stuff in there, but admittedly skimmed some. However,
the mention of their commitment to democracy, and preventing persecution
of minorities, atheists and agnostics is pretty far from the portrayal
most people would create of a church given that much rope to play with.
Could something that progressive and open remain that unchanged for so
long?
You may be doing this, but do you have the church pulling in local
people's/races' hallowed/legendary/sanctified figures into the ranks of
the saints? This was something that the (Roman) Catholic church did very
successfully, and gave us other "military" saints like St. Barbara. This
is much like the Imperial Romans did when they rolled into a town, looked
at the local gods, and said, "Hey, we know them. Those are Apollo and
Athena, you just know them by one of their other names. So you're already
one of us! Huzzah!" Hence a shrewd meaning of the "Roman" in "Roman
Catholic"
>> Or
>> the perils of Excommunication in such a society.
My pastor in Maryland (Bastien) used to like to threaten to excommunicate
my dad. It's fun to be in a liturgical church where such terms have
meaning.
Some of it intended
> out
>> of practical interpretation and some for drama. Of course, man being
> man
>> there will be some of those with negative traits and the oddball
villain
>> or
>> two as a 'man of the cloth' cynically using his religion as a means
> rather
>> than an end.
To the extent that so many political leaders are described as being
members of the church I would assume that like today that is as much the
rule as the exception.
>> The personality of the AZH captured by the Knights of St George and
> later
>> inhabited by one of Sandman's progeny was going to be most entertaining
> since I had it with a mostly intact theological history database at it's
disposal and would tend to debate things like Arius and Trinity or the
Gregorian vs Julian Calendars, etc.
I really like that idea.
>>> 2. I note at the (Second) Council of Nicea in 2054 that US Episcopals
> don't join. Is that a result of the recent split with the Anglicans, so
is
>>> it based on current events?
>> No, most of the concept I did in the late 90's and was hypothetical on
> the
>> ecumenical movement as it was then. I think Episcopalians having women
> priests was still relatively a big deal.
What about your church in Turin? Male and female priests yet? There's a
real tension in SF between retaining ancestral strictures to make them
more vivid and allowing change to show the passage of time.
I did update some of it as I was
>> presenting to COTI (mostly stuff like the disintegration of the EU,
> etc),
>> but that wasn't a part of it. Mostly I was thinking that the whole
> bunch
>> wouldn't go over in one mass and there would either be a reformist or
> reactionary group that refused to bend to the "Papist apostasy". I had
ideas for one of the Orthodox churches refusing to go along, as well,
though I never pinned down which one or why (leaning on Russian
> Orthodox,
>> mostly so there could still be some claims of Third Rome, etc).
>>> 3. It is really interesting what you are doing in a game which
historically has not addressed religion much.
>> I definitely thought it was lacking, but it's obviously an area almost
> any
>> company would be hesitant to get into much detail on since it's so very
> easy to offend SOMEONE and dig a big PR hole, if not very serious nut
cases.
Yeah, I can't see our having gone there, at least not with clearly
identified current churches. (I made a "CommSent" church in Ranger, its
priest semi-named after my favorite Catholic priest, Father Amerigo
DiNorcia.) But watching someone else play with it in their personal
universe is certainly intriguing.
>> I also wanted to bring a different and more serious element to the
> rather
>> cartoonishly simplistic Solomani Confederation. DGP showed the
Booteans
>> as
>> one alternative, but the Nazis still seemed way too predominant (though
> it
>> didn't annoy me as much as the cliches of the French Nth Republic -
> Reformed, 2nd Edition, the Latino Banana Republic, corrupt eastern bloc
Europeans, Apartheid in Space, etc. They couldn't all be a bunch of
nincompoop stereotypes could they?
Idunno, depends upon your opinion of humanity. After the day I've had
today, yeah, maybe they could.
>>> 4. What happens to the Lutherans? Surely you know better than to lump
> us
>>> in with the rest of the Protestants.
>> Sure enough. After the Anglicans, I see the Lutherans as the next
> closest
>> theologically,
I quibble with that a little because of the nature of the origin of the
Anglicans as a change in management so the king could change his woman and
get England out from under Italian thumbs. And "via media" was a PR
invention by Anglicans themselves. Aside from English hymns vs. German
hymns you can hardly slip a piece of paper between the Anglicans and
Lutherans, and we're in full communion and with joint congregations. Along
with the RC we are the sacramental churches with more in common with each
other than most of the other protestants. Real presence, infant baptism,
ONE baptism.
> but there are some pretty big theological bullets,almost
> too big to smooth over beyond relatively simple Roman primacy and
calendar
>> details like the Orthodox would face. I wouldn't expect either the
bulk
>> of
>> the self respecting Lutherans to bend on any more than I expect the
Rock
>> of
>> St Peter's. I would have had relations cordial following Nicea 2054 but
had
>> ideas for at least one world in the Consolidation with a rich Lutheran
> heritage, though refusing to implement a Universal-Orthodox hierarchy,
much
>> less bend to it, as a matter of principle. I might not have my finger
> on
>> the pulse of Lutheran ecumenism enough to be accurately capture that,
> though so maybe you can provide a better perspective on how they would
have
>> reacted to Vilani contact, the Council itself, and which theological
fences
>> would be more willing to compromise on than others, if not also the
> launch
>> of Caelis Torino and the establishment of the TCA, Rule of Man, Turin
> Consolidation, Solomani Movement, etc.
Yikes. That is way too big of a homework assignment to think of how they'd
respond to all of those in-game events. However, as far as American
Lutherans go, the ELCA would go a great distance toward unity with the RC,
Anglicans and Reformed movements, and already has. Missouri Synod and
Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, however, don't even like to be in the same room
with ELCA. Can't have their pictures taken with them in the paper. And
then their are the two new lutheran churches that splintered off in the
last year.
The Lutherans and RC have already agreed on justification, which was what
sparked off Brother Martin to begin with. We agree on the priesthood of
all believers. Most of the differences in that area were in
emphasis/tradition, not actual theology or doctrine. That and lazy
prejudice and habit. There is a strong will in the ELCA for real unity. I
can walk into any RC, Ang, or Lutheran church and know the order of
worship and all the words to all of the liturgy (English, not Latin). I
would think you could with not too far a stretch imagine a Lutheran Rite,
or perhaps Melancthonian Rite in your church. A number of Lutheran
churches are still in, or have gotten back into the Apostolic Succession,
so are considered as Catholics by not just themselves, but by some
Catholic standards.
Would Lutherans take back the other five sacraments? Would they pray to
saints? Venerate Mary? Could those things become adiaphora? Although
doctrinal stuff seems like it would be the biggest obstacle, "feel" stuff
like the RC approach to tradition would loom large. But the biggest thing
would probably be the obvious thing, Primacy of the Pope and Papal
Infallibility. But a lot of Lutherans would want to find a way to make it
work. Maybe if the Pope took the first step.
Speaking of Papal Infallibility, how did the RC and Orthodox settle that
in your Ortho-Catholic church?
>> I do tend towards optimism, though it's not all roses. Partially I was
> trying to emulate medieval Christendom but with a modern humanist
approach
>> while trying to keep enough room for adventure and theology for those
> inclined. The ecclesiastical language is essential to that spirit as
well
>> as the general symbology permeating even lay life.
Absolutely. Narthex vs. lobby, Sanctuary vs. auditorium, Sexton vs.
Janitor, Pulpit vs. podium, Purificator vs. napkin, Verger instead of
bouncer.
>> I think a losing war against the Vilani (as it was hypothesized for the
> launch of Caelis Torino) would inspire some open minded theology, as
well.
>> Catholic-Orthodox... cordiality, if not full reunion seems inevitable.
The
>> huge differences of the past are relatively trivial today. I've
studied
> the early history of Christianity at some length, particularly the early
heresies and how the western and eastern Church grew and dealt with them.
>> The whole idea of the culmination of the ecumenical movement stemmed
> from
>> the ideal scenario and counterpoint to the nasty drama between
Patriarch
> Michael Kerularios and Cardinal Humbert and the reunion of the two
oldest
>> branches of Christianity. Mostly it started from some of my reading of
the
>> Latin/Greek Schism, so it was no coincidence I put the reunion 1000
> years
>> later. It might be TOO coincidental but it does seem an obvious date
> to
>> try to do something symbolic on, as well.
>> Still, it's almost hilarious to see the differences that Photius
> condemned
>> as anathema the Latins for things as petty as not beginning Lent until
> Ash
>> Wednesday instead of 3 days earlier, as well as the classic staples of
> married clergy and filioque (which is probably too subtle for most
non-religious to appreciate).
However, another piece of the tension in your church in Traveller is that
digging in on "petty" differences like that comes from people feeling very
strongly about them, and feeling strongly about things correlates with
surviving as a continuous movement for a long time. In order to keep a
movement together, you can't relax on too many things.
Herbert's OC Bible was interesting, and I think a nice example of how
things staying the same, combined with changing, made for a nice SF feel.
>> I don't expect many Protestants or modern Evangelicals to join the
> party,
>> though, without backtracking on relatively core theology that the
Catholics
>> and Orthodox can't bend on either.
The word "Protestant" hardly means anything, except they signed a letter
in 1529, back before most of the denominations were invented...usually in
a huff by people stomping out. Since then all it means is "Anybody who's
not RC or Orthodox," and the distance between the sacramental churches is
much less than the breadth across "Protestantism" as a whole.
Baptism, re-baptism, your baptism wasn't as real as my rebaptism,
sacrament vs. ordinance, congregationalism vs. hierarchy, too many things
to disagree on.
>>> > I Love that Dulinor quote. Hints at a depth and humanity to an
>>> otherwise
>>> undeveloped character known (and almost universally reviled) only for
> what he did, not why.
>>> Thanks. I wanted to give him a bit of a grace note, because there had
>
>> I was going to blame some of it on the Virasin. :) The notes for the
> Brotherhood of SenWenclus have a few refences to theological debate and
Apologetics defending the Arkgallop of Illelish against the claims of the
>> Dlan Virasin
And your final observation here maybe gets at why intrigues me about your
Traveller church. When Traveller says that Dulinor is a Virasin, I think,
"okay, makes sense, whatever they are." But when you say, "Cleon was a
(Latin) Catholic," I go, "huh? That doesn't make sense." So why why does a
made-up faith for Dulinor or Herbert's OC Bible make more sense in that
part of my brain than faiths I have already met, which have lasted for
2000 years, lasting another 3700? I find that question interesting. And I
like the time and thought you've put into this. We use the phrase so much
that we've got at acronym, "IMTU," but I'm thinking that a lot of the
time, as this list shows, what's really more interesting than what's IMTU
is what's in his Traveller Universe, and his, and his. Gary's, Evyn's,
John's, all you guys. Good stuff.
Dave