Roger - a steerable parachute was eventually used for both stages, with residual fuel used to get the final deceleration so the stages could land on the ground.
Tim - getting to LEO is the hard part. IIRC the total delta-V needed to escape the Sun's gravity is 17.75 km/s. However the delta-V needed to get to LEO is ~9 km/s. So once you have cargo up in LEO, you are halfway to anywhere (in the Milky Way at least), energy-wise.
As a cost comparison for getting cargo to LEO:Space Shuttle: ($450m/launch for 24,400 kg): ~$18,400/kiloDelta IV heavy ($375m/launch for 28,790 kg): $13,025/kilo
Falcon Heavy: ($85m/launch for 53,000 kg): ~$1,600/kilo
The station itself might initially be a giant fuel tank with a command center coordinating the activities of multiple drones that use ion drives (or similar high-efficiency low thrust engines) to move about the Earth orbits. Cheap spacelift carries fuel to orbit, and delivers it to the station. The station then handles refueling the pods attached, and the drones move the fuel pods to different orbits. The drones may take 1-2 months to move the payload up or down, but they will do it cheaply. Passengers will want faster transit.
So a new Lunar mission might be the following:Rocket launches to orbit, delivering the fuel needed for LLO-Earth transit. Fuel attached to drones, and sent on 3-4 month journey to LLO. Two sets of fuel might be sent, as a 'just in case'.
Rocket launches to orbit, and delivers Lunar Lander. Lander pod attached to drones and sent on 3-4 month trip to LLO.Rockets deliver Fuel for LEO-LLO maneuver. This is kept at the station (or nearby, and with a drone attached to it).Rockets also deliver Food and water (and other consumables) for trip. This is to ensure food doesn't go bad while waiting for the crew.
Rocket delivers Lunar transfer pod. This is fueled from the LEO-LLO fuel stockpiles (so you are lifting an empty transfer vessel instead of a fuelled one)
Rockets deliver Crew for Lunar mission. They arrive at the station, and board the transfer pod. They thrust to the LLO maneuver, so they can rendezvous with the Fuel pods and Lunar Lander already present.Transfer pod refuels from LLO-LEO fuel stockpile, and drones begin long lonely flight back to the station. Drones attached to the Lunar Lander are attached to transfer pod instead (so they aren't left floating around).
Lunar crew lands on Moon using Lander. They do their thing, then launch back to orbit to rendezvous with the Transfer vessel. Drones help maneuver Lunar Lander and transfer pod so they attach (or the Lunar crew just don spacesuits and transfer via EVA to the transfer pod). Drones are left attached to Lunar Lander.
Lunar Lander is left in Lunar orbit for the next crew, or pushed back to Earth via drones. Lunar Crew uses transfer pod to get back to station.From station, the Lunar crew return to Earth.
Todd
From: "Tim O'Reilly [Traveller_TNE]" <>
I'd go for a station that would refuel, or transfer cargo & passengers from rockets/shuttle types from earth and those going/coming from higher stage orbits, L5, Luna, whatever.
On Saturday, March 7, 2015 9:27 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
I agree with your ideas for cheap spacecraft except for the vertical landing. Here I think I would go with horizontal landing. I can only think of two ways to break for landing, thrusters or parachute. I think I would rather deal with the shifting mass problem over having to haul fuel up to orbit just to bring it back for breaking thrusters. I also agree about the shuttle tiles, I was never happy with them, too vulnerable by far, but with Earth's TL at the time there was little option. Not sure that wood would work either but the idea of having a BBQ after landing is amusing. "Hey we made it back alive. Where the ship? Lets rip it apart I'm starving." I've always thought of the shuttle program as a prototype program and was basely late seventy's/early eighties tech program with some upgrades. I would dearly like to see a new "advanced shuttle program" with current tech. It would have to use off the shelf components and be built more like an aircraft production line than as a single unit which would help cut costs too. The big problem as you pointed out is, what to do with them once you have a fleet of twenty or so shuttles and several ones in other country's hands? Here with the US/USSR space race gone we would need some kind of need to put people into space to validate the shuttles viability {Off, did I just say that}. Exploration by robot rovers seems to be working well and tourists or people wanting to skydive from orbit will not be worth it or the occasional satellite launch. We would need orbital factory's, or off planet colonies to need the fleet for service. I get a little off topic here, but I can't resist. My idea for a first space station would be a habitation ring around a Zero-G factory with a shuttle docking bay one end and maybe a ore crusher/smelter on the other end.Roger #yiv0507728621 -- #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp #yiv0507728621hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp #yiv0507728621ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp .yiv0507728621ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp .yiv0507728621ad p {margin:0;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp .yiv0507728621ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-sponsor #yiv0507728621ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-sponsor #yiv0507728621ygrp-lc #yiv0507728621hd {margin:10px 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Tim - getting to LEO is the hard part. IIRC the total delta-V needed to escape the Sun's gravity is 17.75 km/s. However the delta-V needed to get to LEO is ~9 km/s. So once you have cargo up in LEO, you are halfway to anywhere (in the Milky Way at least), energy-wise.
As a cost comparison for getting cargo to LEO:Space Shuttle: ($450m/launch for 24,400 kg): ~$18,400/kiloDelta IV heavy ($375m/launch for 28,790 kg): $13,025/kilo
Falcon Heavy: ($85m/launch for 53,000 kg): ~$1,600/kilo
The station itself might initially be a giant fuel tank with a command center coordinating the activities of multiple drones that use ion drives (or similar high-efficiency low thrust engines) to move about the Earth orbits. Cheap spacelift carries fuel to orbit, and delivers it to the station. The station then handles refueling the pods attached, and the drones move the fuel pods to different orbits. The drones may take 1-2 months to move the payload up or down, but they will do it cheaply. Passengers will want faster transit.
So a new Lunar mission might be the following:Rocket launches to orbit, delivering the fuel needed for LLO-Earth transit. Fuel attached to drones, and sent on 3-4 month journey to LLO. Two sets of fuel might be sent, as a 'just in case'.
Rocket launches to orbit, and delivers Lunar Lander. Lander pod attached to drones and sent on 3-4 month trip to LLO.Rockets deliver Fuel for LEO-LLO maneuver. This is kept at the station (or nearby, and with a drone attached to it).Rockets also deliver Food and water (and other consumables) for trip. This is to ensure food doesn't go bad while waiting for the crew.
Rocket delivers Lunar transfer pod. This is fueled from the LEO-LLO fuel stockpiles (so you are lifting an empty transfer vessel instead of a fuelled one)
Rockets deliver Crew for Lunar mission. They arrive at the station, and board the transfer pod. They thrust to the LLO maneuver, so they can rendezvous with the Fuel pods and Lunar Lander already present.Transfer pod refuels from LLO-LEO fuel stockpile, and drones begin long lonely flight back to the station. Drones attached to the Lunar Lander are attached to transfer pod instead (so they aren't left floating around).
Lunar crew lands on Moon using Lander. They do their thing, then launch back to orbit to rendezvous with the Transfer vessel. Drones help maneuver Lunar Lander and transfer pod so they attach (or the Lunar crew just don spacesuits and transfer via EVA to the transfer pod). Drones are left attached to Lunar Lander.
Lunar Lander is left in Lunar orbit for the next crew, or pushed back to Earth via drones. Lunar Crew uses transfer pod to get back to station.From station, the Lunar crew return to Earth.
Todd
From: "Tim O'Reilly [Traveller_TNE]" <>
I'd go for a station that would refuel, or transfer cargo & passengers from rockets/shuttle types from earth and those going/coming from higher stage orbits, L5, Luna, whatever.
On Saturday, March 7, 2015 9:27 AM, " [Traveller_TNE]" <> wrote:
I agree with your ideas for cheap spacecraft except for the vertical landing. Here I think I would go with horizontal landing. I can only think of two ways to break for landing, thrusters or parachute. I think I would rather deal with the shifting mass problem over having to haul fuel up to orbit just to bring it back for breaking thrusters. I also agree about the shuttle tiles, I was never happy with them, too vulnerable by far, but with Earth's TL at the time there was little option. Not sure that wood would work either but the idea of having a BBQ after landing is amusing. "Hey we made it back alive. Where the ship? Lets rip it apart I'm starving." I've always thought of the shuttle program as a prototype program and was basely late seventy's/early eighties tech program with some upgrades. I would dearly like to see a new "advanced shuttle program" with current tech. It would have to use off the shelf components and be built more like an aircraft production line than as a single unit which would help cut costs too. The big problem as you pointed out is, what to do with them once you have a fleet of twenty or so shuttles and several ones in other country's hands? Here with the US/USSR space race gone we would need some kind of need to put people into space to validate the shuttles viability {Off, did I just say that}. Exploration by robot rovers seems to be working well and tourists or people wanting to skydive from orbit will not be worth it or the occasional satellite launch. We would need orbital factory's, or off planet colonies to need the fleet for service. I get a little off topic here, but I can't resist. My idea for a first space station would be a habitation ring around a Zero-G factory with a shuttle docking bay one end and maybe a ore crusher/smelter on the other end.Roger #yiv0507728621 -- #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp #yiv0507728621hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp #yiv0507728621ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp .yiv0507728621ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp .yiv0507728621ad p {margin:0;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-mkp .yiv0507728621ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-sponsor #yiv0507728621ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv0507728621 #yiv0507728621ygrp-sponsor #yiv0507728621ygrp-lc #yiv0507728621hd {margin:10px 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