Mike--
FWIW, unless there is a lot more stuff about the Ancients Droyn-iforming
than I remember*, I don't recall Traveller leaning really heavily on
"terraforming" as a theme, certainly not to the point where it went into a
lot of detail about what went into it. I think you are thinking along
these lines as well, that the background "feels" like the worlds came with
these atmospheres on their own, particularly because of the way population
assorted independently from atmosphere. If they were doing a lot of
terraforming you would expect to see more connection between "in progress"
terraforming worlds and the effort going into that, and the reason why
that world was chosen. You could assert that is happening, but the lack of
routine talk about it tends to undermine it. That and the number of high
population worlds nowhere close to terraformable, and the number of
livable worlds with small populations suggests an immunity to needing a
hospitable environment rather than a preference for doing so.
*And even if there is, that would likely be limited to the worlds
established as being to Droyne preference, and wouldn't explain a lot of
worlds magically made for humans, other than those selected for the
transplant projects.
The 3I is settled the way it is because those hexes have systems in them,
and everyone expands to fill up each one all the way out to the borders.
So, assuming this is where you're at, I'm with you on the assumption that
these are naturally oxygenated atmospheres, found and exploited the way
they developed, which means I suddenly have to hate giant stars a lot more
than I did a couple hours ago.
Why am I suddenly excited and talking like I'm involved in a project? I've
been irrelevant to this thing for decades now. But there is something
about re-awakening a project I was working on 19 years ago that gets me
fired up.
> Let me back up for a moment.
>
>
>
> If you have a life-less rock, I donât give a crap what star it orbits.
I
> also donât care if there are a billion morons living on it. Thatâs
Traveller. Roll with it. I am not talking about those worlds.
>
>
>
> The worlds I am talking about are those worlds with some kind of
âbreathableâ atmosphere. It is âbreathableâ because it is the
correct composition and has lots of oxygen in it. Oxygen doesnât just
âappearâ in an atmosphere. It also doesnât just âstayâ in the
atmosphere, either. Something (generally this thing called âlife as we
know itâ) is what puts it in the atmosphere and then keeps it around.
An
> atmosphere is a huge, huge thing. Putting enough oxygen in that
atmosphere
> takes a long, long time. How long? I donât know for sure, but I am
willing to bet the Vilani havenât been around long enough to change a
world with a type A (or 0 or 1) atmosphere into a type 4-9 atmosphere.
Are
> the Ancient old enough? I dunno.
>
>
>
> And even if the Ancient *are* old enough, there werenât enough of them
to terraform every world. There were, what, 400 of them? And it wasnât
like everyone one of them was spending all of their time terraforming as
many lifeless worlds as they could. Terraforming was kind of a side
business to them. Sure, they did it to several worlds, but it was more
of
> a means to an end, not the end itself. So, you can use that excuse for
what, a few dozen worlds across their entire range? I imagine they would
get bored with the whole idea past that.
>
>
>
> What I *can* see is some world like a large Titan (or something even
more
> frozen down) could get warmed up by an expanding giant and have a period
where it blooms into a warm planet with an advanced atmosphere. But that
atmosphere is going to be, at best, type A. Good luck getting that type
A
> atmosphere changed into a type 6 before the giant expands more and burns
up the planet or collapses and blows the atmosphere completely away as
it
> becomes a white dwarf.
>
>
>
> I do freely admit that maybe this whole terraforming thing is way easier
than I think, and that it would be relatively easy for a human society
to
> transform lots of Marses and Titans into little Earths with a type 5
atmosphere. But I am just not seeing it. Heck, even the Traveller canon
shows that the actual Mars itself was only able to be given a type 3
atmosphere after centuries of trying.
>
>
>
> Mike West
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
[]
> On Behalf Of DEREK STANLEY
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 10:59 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: TNE - Stellar failure
>
>
>
>
>
> You're assuming that the imperium is only looking for habitable planets
with life on them to put roots down on if I'm following you. A planet
could be a rock with an atmosphere and water and nothing more
> sophisticated than random strands of RNA. If the planet only has a
20,000
> year habitable window that's a lot of time in human standards. Lets face
it a few billion years back you could have chucked down a human colony
on
> Mars and started farming there... Possibly. :)
>
> Derek Stanley
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2014, at 7:06 PM, "Mike West" <> wrote:
>
>
>
> I donât know if I have the WTH around anywhere, so I canât speak to
the tables easily.
>
>
>
> On the subject of M0-4 stars working, it is my understanding they can.
(Heck Mire has an M0V, and I donât think anyone has tried to change
it.)
> It was just the dinky red dwarfs that were the issue (e.g. Alell).
>
>
>
> If I remember right, the problem with both giants and main sequence
stars
> O,B,A is that they just donât last the couple billion years required
for
> life to develop. That said, it isnât as necessary to worry about the
giants, a s a few habitable worlds around a giant is cool for the type
of
> SF that is Traveller.
>
>
>
> Mike West
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
[]
> On Behalf Of
>
>
>
>
> I still have to loop back and finish looking at the earlier one, but I
think there's still something going on in 3 and 4 based on other remarks
abo ut M0-4 being too cold, and giants being inadmissible.
>
> Is it your understanding the using the habitable zones table is
adequate,
> or that there is something beyond that?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
FWIW, unless there is a lot more stuff about the Ancients Droyn-iforming
than I remember*, I don't recall Traveller leaning really heavily on
"terraforming" as a theme, certainly not to the point where it went into a
lot of detail about what went into it. I think you are thinking along
these lines as well, that the background "feels" like the worlds came with
these atmospheres on their own, particularly because of the way population
assorted independently from atmosphere. If they were doing a lot of
terraforming you would expect to see more connection between "in progress"
terraforming worlds and the effort going into that, and the reason why
that world was chosen. You could assert that is happening, but the lack of
routine talk about it tends to undermine it. That and the number of high
population worlds nowhere close to terraformable, and the number of
livable worlds with small populations suggests an immunity to needing a
hospitable environment rather than a preference for doing so.
*And even if there is, that would likely be limited to the worlds
established as being to Droyne preference, and wouldn't explain a lot of
worlds magically made for humans, other than those selected for the
transplant projects.
The 3I is settled the way it is because those hexes have systems in them,
and everyone expands to fill up each one all the way out to the borders.
So, assuming this is where you're at, I'm with you on the assumption that
these are naturally oxygenated atmospheres, found and exploited the way
they developed, which means I suddenly have to hate giant stars a lot more
than I did a couple hours ago.
Why am I suddenly excited and talking like I'm involved in a project? I've
been irrelevant to this thing for decades now. But there is something
about re-awakening a project I was working on 19 years ago that gets me
fired up.
> Let me back up for a moment.
>
>
>
> If you have a life-less rock, I donât give a crap what star it orbits.
I
> also donât care if there are a billion morons living on it. Thatâs
Traveller. Roll with it. I am not talking about those worlds.
>
>
>
> The worlds I am talking about are those worlds with some kind of
âbreathableâ atmosphere. It is âbreathableâ because it is the
correct composition and has lots of oxygen in it. Oxygen doesnât just
âappearâ in an atmosphere. It also doesnât just âstayâ in the
atmosphere, either. Something (generally this thing called âlife as we
know itâ) is what puts it in the atmosphere and then keeps it around.
An
> atmosphere is a huge, huge thing. Putting enough oxygen in that
atmosphere
> takes a long, long time. How long? I donât know for sure, but I am
willing to bet the Vilani havenât been around long enough to change a
world with a type A (or 0 or 1) atmosphere into a type 4-9 atmosphere.
Are
> the Ancient old enough? I dunno.
>
>
>
> And even if the Ancient *are* old enough, there werenât enough of them
to terraform every world. There were, what, 400 of them? And it wasnât
like everyone one of them was spending all of their time terraforming as
many lifeless worlds as they could. Terraforming was kind of a side
business to them. Sure, they did it to several worlds, but it was more
of
> a means to an end, not the end itself. So, you can use that excuse for
what, a few dozen worlds across their entire range? I imagine they would
get bored with the whole idea past that.
>
>
>
> What I *can* see is some world like a large Titan (or something even
more
> frozen down) could get warmed up by an expanding giant and have a period
where it blooms into a warm planet with an advanced atmosphere. But that
atmosphere is going to be, at best, type A. Good luck getting that type
A
> atmosphere changed into a type 6 before the giant expands more and burns
up the planet or collapses and blows the atmosphere completely away as
it
> becomes a white dwarf.
>
>
>
> I do freely admit that maybe this whole terraforming thing is way easier
than I think, and that it would be relatively easy for a human society
to
> transform lots of Marses and Titans into little Earths with a type 5
atmosphere. But I am just not seeing it. Heck, even the Traveller canon
shows that the actual Mars itself was only able to be given a type 3
atmosphere after centuries of trying.
>
>
>
> Mike West
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
[]
> On Behalf Of DEREK STANLEY
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 10:59 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Traveller_TNE] Re: TNE - Stellar failure
>
>
>
>
>
> You're assuming that the imperium is only looking for habitable planets
with life on them to put roots down on if I'm following you. A planet
could be a rock with an atmosphere and water and nothing more
> sophisticated than random strands of RNA. If the planet only has a
20,000
> year habitable window that's a lot of time in human standards. Lets face
it a few billion years back you could have chucked down a human colony
on
> Mars and started farming there... Possibly. :)
>
> Derek Stanley
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2014, at 7:06 PM, "Mike West" <> wrote:
>
>
>
> I donât know if I have the WTH around anywhere, so I canât speak to
the tables easily.
>
>
>
> On the subject of M0-4 stars working, it is my understanding they can.
(Heck Mire has an M0V, and I donât think anyone has tried to change
it.)
> It was just the dinky red dwarfs that were the issue (e.g. Alell).
>
>
>
> If I remember right, the problem with both giants and main sequence
stars
> O,B,A is that they just donât last the couple billion years required
for
> life to develop. That said, it isnât as necessary to worry about the
giants, a s a few habitable worlds around a giant is cool for the type
of
> SF that is Traveller.
>
>
>
> Mike West
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
[]
> On Behalf Of
>
>
>
>
> I still have to loop back and finish looking at the earlier one, but I
think there's still something going on in 3 and 4 based on other remarks
abo ut M0-4 being too cold, and giants being inadmissible.
>
> Is it your understanding the using the habitable zones table is
adequate,
> or that there is something beyond that?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>