On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:18 AM, <> wrote:
>
>
> When I was last current in Traveller, there had not been much work
> on formalizing the density of shipping by sector, subsector, world,
> trade-lane, etc. On the one hand the nature of the game (and movies, TV
> shows) makes people want to imagine 100s of ships wherever you look (I'm
> talking in 3I, not the TNE Wilds) but more rigorous work seems to indicate
> fewer ships, but it's not clear to me that is commonly observed.
>
This really depends on the shipping model, in that there are two prevailing
models than needn't be mutually exclusive, yet most people think in one or
the other. The 1st or original model is termed the Small Ship Model it's
genesis is in Book 2 of CT where 5000 tons was the limit, this is supported
by the Traveller adventure as well it is the level most groups playing the
game reside. In this model most commercial shipping is sub 5000 dTons and
is largely local in flavor (The majority of merchantmen are equipped with
J1 or J2 drives). So there are lots of ships going everywhere, and the
model starts to break in terms of traffic to High Population worlds. The
other end of this model is the Large Ship Model (funny thing that name
considering). Which Larger, 10 to 20 kdTon liners with J3 or J4 drives
service much longer routes in a hub and spoke model, from the waypoint of
these large ships the small ones radiate out into the fringe/local markets.
As I lead with often people get hung up with one of these two and have hard
times justifying middles where they cross over. By extension I have
pondered what the J3/J4 liner network of the Imperium looks like. The major
limiting factor is the metric to use for figuring out trade volume, SJG
used a algorithm based on GDP, which is ok in terms of cash flow framing
the trade routes, but not so hot at roughing in volumes in their most
physical sense. I have often pondered using numbers based on real world
volumes which work out a cubic meter per person world wide.
> If you've played 5th Frontier War you'll by struck by how few warships
> there are in the area, fewer than most players would expect. While 5FW is
> certainly "canonical," it is fair to ask is it really accurate?
>
There are about 25,000 commercial ships of all stripes worldwide Compared
something like 2500 active warships (I had numbers but I can't seem to pin
them down as I write this.) Then add in all the the other ships and craft
that exist, note these were from reported sources there is some not small
number of craft are not reported anywhere that is quantifiable.
> This implies that
> somewhere GDW had some rules for how many (how many tons of) warships
> could be built by population, starport, etc. However, I never became aware
> of any of these. It is fair to assume that since Frank was one of the 5FW
> designers he was aware of the algorithm, and it is probably very similar
> to the one he put in PoT, i.e., same order of magnitude.
>
Trillion Credit Squadron?
>
> Bottom line is that is a lot more work than you or I are going to do, so I
> looked for the article in the 5FW para and could not find it. But on the
> way to not finding it, spotted hundreds of posts on COTI and SJG and SFRPG
> where Traveller authors were haranguing over fleets and fleet sizes dating
> back to T4.
>
That is one of our favorite pastimes....
>
>
> Yes, I agree again. Jump assets are also too valuable to risk in combat if
> something more readily replaceable can fight in its place. So why did I
> illustrate the Covenanters if they're not really the backbone? Starships
> are just cooler than not starships, and I thought the Covenanter hybrids
> were cool.
>
I never understood this point of view, Smallcraft with their ability to
have burn their way across a system with a combats load of fuel. TNE made
this even more so. Small craft and SDB really become the big boys they
should always have been. Part of of the big issue there was the Battleship
simulator that was CT's Book 5 High Guard. In which if it wasn't a spinal
mount it wasn't a weapon. Hint Book 2 ship combat was a different critter
even more so with the release of Special Supplement 3 Missiles, i.e
Missiles became the main battery of ship to ship combat that was no way
represented in High Guard.
>
>
> Finally, and this is a pure TNEism, Marc has repudiated this elsewhere,
> TNE allows jump capable craft smaller than 100 tons. I am honestly of not
> convinced of J-torps, but I do know that I want you to be able to built
> little couriers or Xboats down around 50-80 tons and not 100.
>
A 50 dton Couriers are still damn big ships. I am often surprised at how
little comprehension there is about the size of Traveller ships among
Traveller Fans.
--
Evyn
>
>
> When I was last current in Traveller, there had not been much work
> on formalizing the density of shipping by sector, subsector, world,
> trade-lane, etc. On the one hand the nature of the game (and movies, TV
> shows) makes people want to imagine 100s of ships wherever you look (I'm
> talking in 3I, not the TNE Wilds) but more rigorous work seems to indicate
> fewer ships, but it's not clear to me that is commonly observed.
>
This really depends on the shipping model, in that there are two prevailing
models than needn't be mutually exclusive, yet most people think in one or
the other. The 1st or original model is termed the Small Ship Model it's
genesis is in Book 2 of CT where 5000 tons was the limit, this is supported
by the Traveller adventure as well it is the level most groups playing the
game reside. In this model most commercial shipping is sub 5000 dTons and
is largely local in flavor (The majority of merchantmen are equipped with
J1 or J2 drives). So there are lots of ships going everywhere, and the
model starts to break in terms of traffic to High Population worlds. The
other end of this model is the Large Ship Model (funny thing that name
considering). Which Larger, 10 to 20 kdTon liners with J3 or J4 drives
service much longer routes in a hub and spoke model, from the waypoint of
these large ships the small ones radiate out into the fringe/local markets.
As I lead with often people get hung up with one of these two and have hard
times justifying middles where they cross over. By extension I have
pondered what the J3/J4 liner network of the Imperium looks like. The major
limiting factor is the metric to use for figuring out trade volume, SJG
used a algorithm based on GDP, which is ok in terms of cash flow framing
the trade routes, but not so hot at roughing in volumes in their most
physical sense. I have often pondered using numbers based on real world
volumes which work out a cubic meter per person world wide.
> If you've played 5th Frontier War you'll by struck by how few warships
> there are in the area, fewer than most players would expect. While 5FW is
> certainly "canonical," it is fair to ask is it really accurate?
>
There are about 25,000 commercial ships of all stripes worldwide Compared
something like 2500 active warships (I had numbers but I can't seem to pin
them down as I write this.) Then add in all the the other ships and craft
that exist, note these were from reported sources there is some not small
number of craft are not reported anywhere that is quantifiable.
> This implies that
> somewhere GDW had some rules for how many (how many tons of) warships
> could be built by population, starport, etc. However, I never became aware
> of any of these. It is fair to assume that since Frank was one of the 5FW
> designers he was aware of the algorithm, and it is probably very similar
> to the one he put in PoT, i.e., same order of magnitude.
>
Trillion Credit Squadron?
>
> Bottom line is that is a lot more work than you or I are going to do, so I
> looked for the article in the 5FW para and could not find it. But on the
> way to not finding it, spotted hundreds of posts on COTI and SJG and SFRPG
> where Traveller authors were haranguing over fleets and fleet sizes dating
> back to T4.
>
That is one of our favorite pastimes....
>
>
> Yes, I agree again. Jump assets are also too valuable to risk in combat if
> something more readily replaceable can fight in its place. So why did I
> illustrate the Covenanters if they're not really the backbone? Starships
> are just cooler than not starships, and I thought the Covenanter hybrids
> were cool.
>
I never understood this point of view, Smallcraft with their ability to
have burn their way across a system with a combats load of fuel. TNE made
this even more so. Small craft and SDB really become the big boys they
should always have been. Part of of the big issue there was the Battleship
simulator that was CT's Book 5 High Guard. In which if it wasn't a spinal
mount it wasn't a weapon. Hint Book 2 ship combat was a different critter
even more so with the release of Special Supplement 3 Missiles, i.e
Missiles became the main battery of ship to ship combat that was no way
represented in High Guard.
>
>
> Finally, and this is a pure TNEism, Marc has repudiated this elsewhere,
> TNE allows jump capable craft smaller than 100 tons. I am honestly of not
> convinced of J-torps, but I do know that I want you to be able to built
> little couriers or Xboats down around 50-80 tons and not 100.
>
A 50 dton Couriers are still damn big ships. I am often surprised at how
little comprehension there is about the size of Traveller ships among
Traveller Fans.
--
Evyn